whats to try?

[SingleDad]

one more thing-

when I married him, I knew I didn't feel the passionate love for him that I had felt in previousl love relationships. But I thought I felt enough to make it work and to be happy. I was wrong. Guess thats a big "oops". What can I say, I was young and wanted to be married.

 

In your other relationships - How long did the passion last ? 3 mos... 6 mos...2 years... But then it ended and the relationship broke off... and usually even the friendship ends.

 

How long do you expect the passion to last ?

 

Why didn't you marry one of the passionate men from your prior relationships ? Were they missing something else... something that you found in the man you married ?

 

Friendship is the very core of love...without friendship it's just infatuation. Intimacy and passion are how you feel about it - and your emotions is something you alone control.

[n9688m]

Guess thats a big "oops". What can I say, I was young and wanted to be married.

 

I guess that is where we differ. "Oops" is when you spill milk. This was the most collossal - and frankly selfish - decision of your life that has now affected not only your STBXH but also your children who have been deprived of a stable family. Apparently you are lucky that your STBXH took this so well - but it does not change the selfish nature of what you did.

 

[Yes, I am projecting my anger on your because my STBXW did the same to me - so my apologies there. ]

[SmartWoman321]

In your other relationships - How long did the passion last ? 3 mos... 6 mos...2 years... But then it ended and the relationship broke off... and usually even the friendship ends.

 

How long do you expect the passion to last ?

 

Why didn't you marry one of the passionate men from your prior relationships ? Were they missing something else... something that you found in the man you married ?

 

Friendship is the very core of love...without friendship it's just infatuation. Intimacy and passion are how you feel about it - and your emotions is something you alone control.

 

 

It doesn't matter how long my love for the other people lasted, the point was I felt it- and I have never felt that way at all with my stbx. No, the other men weren't missing anything that my stbx has, break ups were in college and other circumstances, etc. See, the trouble is too that my stbx and I aren't even what I would call real friends either. WE have nothing to talk about. We don't share any common interests, we live seperate lives- we really don't interest each other much. He does his thing, I do mine. I have my friends, he doesn't want any. We are polar opposites in every category there is. At first, it was this oppositeness that attracted me to him and him to me. But in the long run, a couple has to more alike than different , to hold it together. If I just met him this week, I wouldn't date him and I wouldn't choose him as a friend- its just that we are actually THAT different from each other. When we first seperated, everyone I told responded with "I'm not surprised at all".....LOL- noth that we ever indicated there was a problem, we were just "wierd" together- everyone could see we had nothing in common- we didn't even speak to eachother or sit together when we went to gatherings or functions. Why? We have no interest- and it wasn't just me, him too- and thats ok. But its not ok to be married like this.

 

I have closer male freinds than my H and I ever were nor ever could be.

[SingleDad]

I guess that is where we differ. "Oops" is when you spill milk. This was the most collossal - and frankly selfish - decision of your life that has now affected not only your STBXH but also your children who have been deprived of a stable family. Apparently you are lucky that your STBXH took this so well - but it does not change the selfish nature of what you did.

 

[Yes, I am projecting my anger on your because my STBXW did the same to me - so my apologies there. ]

 

My wife leaving me because she realized that "I am not the man for her" and so that she could live life as in independent and free woman... She walked out and agreed to just over 50% time with our 2 yo daughter... My Wife is also selfish.

 

Admittedly our relationship was falling apart 6 months before she took action - I wasn't understanding her needs and her emotions and feelings - so she ended it.

 

Her filing for divorce and getting a separation and dating again all made me realize that I wasn't as loving and understanding of a husband as she wants and expects.... But now that I know better, from losing her, that I would do anything to get her back - I love her very much... "Too little - too late" she says - she's moved on to OM. That is selfish. I know I can give her what she wants and I am no longer on auto-pilot.

 

Not looking back on the impact she is having on my and our daughter who both love her very much - that is selfish.

 

 

Thinking about your own wants and needs - by definition is selfish. Often it may be justified - but you also make decisions in your life which directly affects others.

 

 

Deciding to get married, deciding to have children, deciding to love someone for better or worse, deciding to make make your life better within the constraints of your past own decisions.

 

Sorry - I am also venting... It just shocks me sometimes how marrriages end in divorce because one spouse expects the other spouse to make them happy - when only you can make yourself happy - happiness is an emotion that only you can feel.

[SmartWoman321]

I guess that is where we differ. "Oops" is when you spill milk. This was the most collossal - and frankly selfish - decision of your life that has now affected not only your STBXH but also your children who have been deprived of a stable family. Apparently you are lucky that your STBXH took this so well - but it does not change the selfish nature of what you did.

 

[Yes, I am projecting my anger on your because my STBXW did the same to me - so my apologies there. ]

*************

Ok- obviously you have your own issues here and you just can't understand my situation. Thats ok. But let me say-and I repeat- I thought that the love I had when I married him was enough. I was sure that over time, I would feel more of the romantic love that I wanted. I was wrong. period. I stayed in the marriage until the kids were teenagers and easier on us to handle for the sake of them. We saw an MC. He knew there were things he could do (not difficult things) that would perhaps spark some romantic love. He didn't do those things- either wouldn't or couldn't.

 

MY stbx is taking this so well because he doesn't love me in "that" way either. He is mostly uspet about the property, financial security, etc.

The only reason he wants to MC again with me is to convince me to live in a roommate-type marriage for a few more years.

 

I can't live like that anymore. I am sorry but I am not happy, I am not in love with him, I am lonely and I need more. And my kids are all doing just fine (they actually like our living arrangement better), and I am determined to keep the "freindship" that my stbx and I have had because we share too many important things together- our history and our kids. You know, not every marriage has to end with people hating each other and all that rotten crap. Geeze, you know, some couples can just come to an agreement that its the best thing to do and stay civil or more. My stbx's parents were divorced for 20 or more years and were together every day, being buddies and hanging out. So we have seen it CAN be that way first hand- and I am so glad of that.

I am somewhat afraid to be alone again, I don't want to spend my life alone- I want a partner, I want to be married. But not to the wrong person.

[SmartWoman321]

Well I guess the key here is as you pointed out that he also fell out of love with you. That seems to be what makes it so mutual.

 

If he were in love with you but you did not have that feeling for him, then I think the situation might well be different [as is my case].

***********

 

well, I am not ABSOLUTELY sure he isn't in love with me- he never tells me one way or another. So I have no idea. I am guessing he isn't, or he would let me know. He never could open up and talk to me, never shared much, never complimented me, never called me by my name, never asked what I was thinking, never said anything during sex, never french kissed me, never touched me. (even after bringing up all these things at MC)He just didn't seem all that into me. But I suppose if you ask him if he loves me, he would say yes. He doesn't want the divorce -thats my doing. Can you kind of see why? LOL

[SmartWoman321]

Thinking about your own wants and needs - by definition is selfish.

 

 

 

Sorry - I am also venting... It just shocks me sometimes how marrriages end in divorce because one spouse expects the other spouse to make them happy - when only you can make yourself happy - happiness is an emotion that only you can feel.

*************

 

Nope- I just spent 8 months in IC learning that it is NOT selfish to think about myself or to want to be in a happy , loving relationship and nothing anyone can say or do now can convince me otherwise. You know what? I stayed in this loveless, stale and unfullfilling marriage for 15 years for the sake of the kids, and that- by no means was selfsih of me- I was putting my own needs on hold. Well, no more. I deserve to be happy too. I do not expect my spouse to "make me happy"- but I DO expect to have a loving, intimate, close relatioship with someone I enjoy being with and doing things with, tlaking to, sleeping with, sharing with, etc.

If I am blessed enough to ever find this in a relationship, then yes- happiness will be the emotion I will feel. :-)

[n9688m]

You know, not every marriage has to end with people hating each other and all that rotten crap.

 

Actually I think it's extremely unusual to imagine circumstances where spouses stay friends post-divorce. Yours seems to be the exception for theee reasons at least based on your posts today. First you both fell out of love - not just one of you. Second it sounds as if there are not huge financial issues to resolve. Third it sounds as if your kids are adjusting remarkably well.

 

Imagine the more typical situation where your husband were still very much romantically interested in you. And imagine if you had to divide major financial assets as well as businesses with major revenue streams. And on top of that imagine if the divorce affected your kids such that one or more of them developed social problems related to coping with the divorce. Those three issues are quite common - and understandably that leads to major disagreement. Your situation seems fortunate but quite rare.

[n9688m]

Nope- I just spent 8 months in IC learning that it is NOT selfish to think about myself or to want to be in a happy , loving relationship and nothing anyone can say or do now can convince me otherwise.

 

That's true in a vacuum, i.e. value-neutral therapy.

 

Unfortunately value-neutral therapy fails to take into account your commitments and obligations to others.

 

In other words, value-neutral therapy by definition promotes - or at least potentiates - selfish behavior.

[SingleDad]

***********

 

well, I am not ABSOLUTELY sure he isn't in love with me- he never tells me one way or another. So I have no idea. I am guessing he isn't, or he would let me know. He never could open up and talk to me, never shared much, never complimented me, never called me by my name, never asked what I was thinking, never said anything during sex, never french kissed me, never touched me. (even after bringing up all these things at MC)He just didn't seem all that into me. But I suppose if you ask him if he loves me, he would say yes. He doesn't want the divorce -thats my doing. Can you kind of see why? LOL

 

 

never... never... never...

 

True that doesn't make for much of a marriage...

 

Instead of complaining what he doesn't do, do you think of what he does do ?

 

All of those things he doesn't do for you - do you continue to to all of them for him ?

 

Have you recetlly tried to do things these very thngs for him for a few weeks and see if he begins to recriprocate ? Maybe things are just stale and need to be woken up ?

 

Many men just go on auto-pilot and don't realize there is a problem... and when spouse complains about it - it just makes him less interested.

 

Instead - if you pro-actively engage him, show him attention, appreciate him, etc... after a few weeks see if his actions and behaviours change for the better.

[n9688m]

But I suppose if you ask him if he loves me, he would say yes. He doesn't want the divorce -thats my doing. Can you kind of see why? LOL

 

Ahhh.... so the plot thickens. So it may well be that he does love you. And the divorce isn't so mutual after all. So indeed it may well be that you did devastate his life after all but you are trying to rationalize it.

 

Let me ask about the infrequent sex too. Does he turn you down if you ask for sex more often? Or instead did you turn him down in the past so he just gave up asking for sex more than once a month?

[Biggie25x]

I think you did the right thing for both of you in the long run. He now has a chance at happiness with a partner comfortable with the way they choose to live. I am currently going through a situation very much like yours that will probably end in divorce. I hope we remain friends after the fact, or at least can talk to one another peacefully, so I don't think it's as strange and rare as it sounds. Until you live it you don't understand what it's like to live in a marriage of convenience without passion. It's a horrible way to live and for some people I think it make them feel cut off from a part of themselves. I know I've felt that way. It's not fair for a partner to expect monogamy and than cut the other person off from any passion in their life. For some people that's asking that person to live an empty life. Sometimes a failed marriage isn't a bad thing, sometimes it's just two people realizing they want different things than the other person wants or is willing to give. That doesn't make either one a bad person, just people that want different things out of life and have different expectations of their partner. Isn't is better to let go so both can try to find happiness with others rather that hold on to something that wasn't rich and fulfilling for BOTH parties. She took care of his needs but he didn't take care of hers

 

Being told that it's okay to expect to be fulfilled and happy in life is not value neutral therapy. It's helping a person understand that it's okay to want basic love and understanding in a relationship.

[Biggie25x]

Also.... I mean when did it become a crime to be happy in life. If one partner does all the work and the other doesn't why is the partner that wants to leave that situation bad? Isn't he doing all the taking and her the giving. Shouldn't she expect that if she takes care of his needs he'll take care of hers? If that's not happening and he won't change, shouldn't she take care of herself? Nobody else seems to worry about that. She did what she needed for the kids and stuck it out until they could better understand the situation.

 

Just sticking it out because you gave vows just doesn't cut it. Didn't the other person swear the same vows? He chose not to ensure her happiness in the relationship so she had to.

[SmartWoman321]

Instead - if you pro-actively engage him, show him attention, appreciate him, etc... after a few weeks see if his actions and behaviours change for the better.

 

Oh, believe me- I did all that. For years. Didn't change.

[SmartWoman321]

That's true in a vacuum, i.e. value-neutral therapy.

 

Unfortunately value-neutral therapy fails to take into account your commitments and obligations to others.

 

In other words, value-neutral therapy by definition promotes - or at least potentiates - selfish behavior.

 

 

I believe I AM taking into considerations my families needs and my obligations as well. I continue to support my kids, and my house, on my own. I waited until stbx found a job outside the home so that he could support himself. I waited until the kids were not as "difficult" to take care of- they were "needier when they were little---now, being teens, they pretty muich get home from school, toss the backpacks and disappear to their video games or friends. You know what I mean.

I stayed in this marriage for years in keeping with my obligations. I waited until the time was "right", so to speak.

[n9688m]

Being told that it's okay to expect to be fulfilled and happy in life is not value neutral therapy. It's helping a person understand that it's okay to want basic love and understanding in a relationship.

 

That may be OK as long as the person involved is honest and admits her mistake in marrying to begin with and doesn't try to convince the other person that the divorce was his fault. And it's also OK if the couple gave a reasonable try at counseling with these issues clearly understood.

 

Even still - I think when you have children you have an obligation to put their needs before your own. I reject any therapy which says otherwise. Sure parents need to be "happy" in the sense particularly of no physical abuse. But I say if mom is secure but has no passion, dad is content with a platonic marriage, and the kids are doing well, the mom ought to live up to her commitment and suck it up until the kids are older.

[n9688m]

Just sticking it out because you gave vows just doesn't cut it. Didn't the other person swear the same vows? He chose not to ensure her happiness in the relationship so she had to.

 

Who said he is responsible for her happiness? What she says makes it seem as if she simply chose the wrong spouse, not that he did anything wrong. That's her issue, not his.

[SmartWoman321]

Ahhh.... so the plot thickens. So it may well be that he does love you. And the divorce isn't so mutual after all. So indeed it may well be that you did devastate his life after all but you are trying to rationalize it.

 

Let me ask about the infrequent sex too. Does he turn you down if you ask for sex more often? Or instead did you turn him down in the past so he just gave up asking for sex more than once a month?

**********

I believe he loves me in his own way. But our definitions of what love means, how it is given and recieved, are very different. We just never connected sexually. He is basically a dead fish, I am opposite. We had therapy in this department too- didn't change anything.

Yes, I devistated his life in the way that he had to move out of his house and give up the family life as he knew it. But again, nothing much has changed in our RELATIONSHIP sinse he moved out. Its the same. Exactly the same. Thats how bad the marriage was.

[SmartWoman321]

Who said he is responsible for her happiness? What she says makes it seem as if she simply chose the wrong spouse, not that he did anything wrong. That's her issue, not his.

 

 

Yes, he didn't really do anything wrong. Thats what makes this so difficult. He can't help it if he is total oppposite me, he can't help it if we can't communicate. And mainly, the thing that I have done wrong, is letting the marriage go on this long for the sake of the kids and the finances. But I have chosen to change that now, to live this lie no longer.

[SmartWoman321]

I think you did the right thing for both of you in the long run. He now has a chance at happiness with a partner comfortable with the way they choose to live. I am currently going through a situation very much like yours that will probably end in divorce. I hope we remain friends after the fact, or at least can talk to one another peacefully, so I don't think it's as strange and rare as it sounds. Until you live it you don't understand what it's like to live in a marriage of convenience without passion. It's a horrible way to live and for some people I think it make them feel cut off from a part of themselves. I know I've felt that way. It's not fair for a partner to expect monogamy and than cut the other person off from any passion in their life. For some people that's asking that person to live an empty life. Sometimes a failed marriage isn't a bad thing, sometimes it's just two people realizing they want different things than the other person wants or is willing to give. That doesn't make either one a bad person, just people that want different things out of life and have different expectations of their partner. Isn't is better to let go so both can try to find happiness with others rather that hold on to something that wasn't rich and fulfilling for BOTH parties. She took care of his needs but he didn't take care of hers

 

Being told that it's okay to expect to be fulfilled and happy in life is not value neutral therapy. It's helping a person understand that it's okay to want basic love and understanding in a relationship.

**********************

finally- someone who understands me!!!!! Thank you

[n9688m]

We just never connected sexually. He is basically a dead fish, I am opposite.

 

Huh? They why did you get married in the first place?????

 

Yes, I devistated his life in the way that he had to move out of his house

 

Whoa.... why didn't you move out since you caused the problem by marrying the wrong man? Why did he agree to move out?

 

But again, nothing much has changed in our RELATIONSHIP sinse he moved out. Its the same. Exactly the same. Thats how bad the marriage was.

 

Would he agree?

 

You didn't answer about why sex is so infrequent. Did he decline you or did you decline him and then he gave up asking?

[SmartWoman321]

That may be OK as long as the person involved is honest and admits her mistake in marrying to begin with and doesn't try to convince the other person that the divorce was his fault. And it's also OK if the couple gave a reasonable try at counseling with these issues clearly understood.

 

Even still - I think when you have children you have an obligation to put their needs before your own. I reject any therapy which says otherwise. Sure parents need to be "happy" in the sense particularly of no physical abuse. But I say if mom is secure but has no passion, dad is content with a platonic marriage, and the kids are doing well, the mom ought to live up to her commitment and suck it up until the kids are older.

**********

 

I tried to do that- I really did. I waited until they are older. Ok, 12, 14 and 16 isn't that old---but how would you like to live day after day , every minute of the day having anxiety, depression and sadness- on the verge of tears because you want to seek out an affair----because of the state of your marriage and nothing can be done to change it? nothing I tell you. Thats how I have been living , every minute of every day for about 10 years....I finally cracked- I couldn't take it anymore, I felt like I was dying. Or wanted to die. And its not that there was yelling or arguments or anything like that- just empty. Lonely and empty. I was virtually alone. SO was he- but he didn't care. He is ok with it. I am not. I simply am not. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is hurt this man. I am doing everything in my power not to any further. I want him to be happy, I really do. I wish he would just meet someone else.

[SmartWoman321]

Huh? They why did you get married in the first place?????

 

Because sex isn't the most important thing in a relationship, as far as I am concerned.

 

 

 

Whoa.... why didn't you move out since you caused the problem by marrying the wrong man? Why did he agree to move out?

 

because I can afford to pay the mortgage and he cannot. And we want our two younger children to stay here with me. It just works out that way financially. We can't sell the house yet- not in this market. Also, I need the house for my business. It worked out in the best interest of all involved.

 

 

 

Would he agree?

 

You didn't answer about why sex is so infrequent. Did he decline you or did you decline him and then he gave up asking?

 

neither of us ever wanted it. I didn't want it because it was so un-passionate and I got nothing out of it. He didn't want it much because I didn't want it much- I assume.

[n9688m]

but how would you like to live day after day , every minute of the day having anxiety, depression and sadness- on the verge of tears because you want to seek out an affair----because of the state of your marriage and nothing can be done to change it? nothing I tell you.

 

Well I need to be careful not to project my or other situations on you.

 

I presume when you say nothing could change it that means you discussed this frankly with your husband directly and in good faith tried marriage counseling and sex therapy to be sure it really was irreconcilable. If so then yes, I agree with what you say.

 

But you seem somewhat hesitant or unsure about whether your husband loves you or whether he enjoys sex so I wonder - did you diligently go to counseling and/or diligently ask him to go to counseling in a way they he knew how unhappy you were and that you were thinking of leaving him?

 

The reason I am asking such pointed questions is that it seems in other cases - including mine - there was no such attempt at counseling until BOOM - one day the bomb dropped, an affair was already underway, and everything was irreconcilable. Perhaps your situation is different.

[n9688m]

neither of us ever wanted it. I didn't want it because it was so un-passionate and I got nothing out of it. He didn't want it much because I didn't want it much- I assume.

 

I suspect that is a roundabout way of saying he didn't bother to ask you because he knew you would say no.