The new sexual revolution: Porn, Swingers, and shifting moralities

[sxyNYCcpl]

Wow. I take a couple of days away to enjoy my weekend and quite a bit of interesting things have happened to my little thread here.

 

This is primarily a response to JS, but first a word for Grog. You said I should take my post to a swing-friendly community, as the Shack don't swing. I could do that, but it's a bit like preaching to the choir, and that's not what I want. Asking the question "has society evolved sexually" amongst a slew of bonafide swingers would result in 2 or 3 responses of "duh, of course it has" and that would be that. Boring.

 

First I would point out that swinging was only one of about 8 points I made to illustrate our evolution. The fact that it's become the focus of the conversation is, all by itself, interesting. Seems the topic garners quite a bit of curiosity and interest.

 

Second, I note that a number of female posters have taken to throwing insults my way. Talking about my age, or maturity, or accusing me of wishful thinking. I'd note for the record this conversation isn't, or at least wasn't intended to be, about me or my wishes. Rather, it's about my observations of what society is becoming. Rather than accuse me of wishful thinking, I suspect what's really going on is the women throwing those comments in my direction can see quite clearly that I'm right, but they don't want to go along for the ride, so rather than addressing the point, they've chosen to attack the messanger.

 

Now on to JS.

 

No man is helping his daughter by supporting a industry that is pretty misognistic and degrading to women.

 

This seems to be a theme for you. That porn is anti-woman and degrading. I submit that your problem is only peripherally related to porn, for if you describe the sexaul activites that occur in mainstream porn as "degrading", I'd say your problem is not porn, rather you seem to have issues with sex itself. You've made it clear that you don't want sperm on your face, and if that is your wish, so be it, but it's not an inherently degrading. Aside from implying that women moaning while recieving sexual pleasure is unrealistic, you've given no further specifics, so I'll ask you outright. Please list the acts you see in porn (or assume exist in porn) that you find degrading. 5 is enough, but don't feel the need to limit yourself.

 

 

So I will ask the question again but I do suspect you are right that no man will answer. Do men want their own daughters to be having relationships with men that look at porn of other women that is often degrading and refers to women in negative names?

 

I have no daughters, so if that means I'm not qualified to answer this question, don't bother reading my response.

 

Still there? Good.

 

Not only would I not object to my (hypothetical) daughter being in a relationship with a man who uses porn, I'd feel bad if she had such low self esteem that her husband using porn threatened her, or if she had such a poor relationship with her own sexuality that she didn't use it herself. Humans watching other humans having sex on film is like sports lovers watching others playing sports. In a healthy relationship, it causes no problems.

[Trialbyfire]

To the OP, reality is as you make it. If you surround yourself with people of the same mentality and morality, it will be your perception of reality.

 

It's like a hooker who believes that all men are John-wannabees. Since her life is surrounded by men who have no respect for her as an individual, they are all John-wannabees or just plain Johns.

[Jersey Shortie]

This seems to be a theme for you. That porn is anti-woman and degrading. I submit that your problem is only peripherally related to porn, for if you describe the sexaul activites that occur in mainstream porn as "degrading", I'd say your problem is not porn, rather you seem to have issues with sex itself. You've made it clear that you don't want sperm on your face, and if that is your wish, so be it, but it's not an inherently degrading. Aside from implying that women moaning while recieving sexual pleasure is unrealistic, you've given no further specifics, so I'll ask you outright. Please list the acts you see in porn (or assume exist in porn) that you find degrading. 5 is enough, but don't feel the need to limit yourself.

 

Porn is anti-woman in many ways, no doubt. And yes, I and most of the world finds porn degrading on some level. As I explained, most men would never want a woman they cared about in porn for the exact reason that they don't want the woman they care about used as only jack off material to be discarded. (Most men, not all). Most men don't have favorable opinions of women in the porn industry beyond what they provide them in masturbation materal. Women are much more susceptible to be used and discarded for sex then a man is. And a man is much more susceptible to being used and discarded for their money. Neither gender likes to see their gender used for these things. It's not rocket science.

 

And yes, a man in a porno finishing on a woman's face, is degrading. Despite what you think, I think most people would agree that there is a level of degradtion in that, men and women. A man in private doing whatever sexual acts with a woman he actually cares about is different. It's the difference between a man taking a woman he has had a relationship with out to a fancy expensive dinner and him taking a woman he just met to a fancy expensive dinner only to have her never intend to go out with him again. He was used for his money. The man in the relationship isn't being used for his money because he is the backing of the emotional relationship. It's the same with sex. Err, and I never said a woman moaning while recieving pleasure was unrealistic. Please don't take my comments out of context to support your agenda.

 

Please list 5 acts? Sure Sweetie. But I would like you to list 5 acts (but please dont feel you need to limit yourself) where women are shown respect and consideration in porn. Deal?

[OpenBook]

Second, I note that a number of female posters have taken to throwing insults my way. Talking about my age, or maturity, or accusing me of wishful thinking. I'd note for the record this conversation isn't, or at least wasn't intended to be, about me or my wishes. Rather, it's about my observations of what society is becoming. Rather than accuse me of wishful thinking, I suspect what's really going on is the women throwing those comments in my direction can see quite clearly that I'm right, but they don't want to go along for the ride, so rather than addressing the point, they've chosen to attack the messanger.

 

Hey, you started it buddy. Essentially you said in your first post that I'm not "evolving" with the rest of society if I prefer to keep my sexual practices PRIVATE, and (to give a specific example) am not inclined to pork a roomful of strangers. Where do you get off??!? Never mind, I DON'T want to know the answer to that!

 

This part I object to in particular:

 

You can see many examples here at LS, people who argue that porn is inherently evil, those who make knee jerk statements like "swinging will kill your relationship", even those who are offended by their partner desiring to partake in certain sex acts. For some reason, these folks, usually but by no means always women, wish to hold onto the "Good girls don't" that we were saddled with for so long. I genuinely feel bad for them, as they're letting their preconceptions keep them from evolving.

 

You are correct in that I "don't want to go along for the ride." But that IN NO WAY makes you right. Nor does it give you any room whatsoever to dictate how I should conduct my sexual life, or judge me as less "evolved" than you for choosing a different path.

 

Sex is a very personal choice for each individual. If you want to swing with a group of other consenting adults, knock yourself out. If somebody else views porn as evil, then that's their prerogative as well. It doesn't mean you're more "evolved" than anyone else. It also doesn't mean you're right.

 

And BTW, it's a LOT more than "preconceptions" that keep us women from exploring our sexuality like you men do. Most men continue to view promiscuous women as sluts and whores, and do not value or respect them as human beings. And biologically, women are the "Gatekeepers" of the womb that bears children to propagate our species. Until this changes, you're going to have a really hard time trying to convince women to open up sexually.

 

Most of us have to actually live in the real world.

[luvstarved]

OMG I have to jump in again...

 

OP, there is really nothing in your original post that indicates to me that society is moving toward polyamory.

 

Just because society is more open and tolerant does not mean that what's really going on behind closed doors has changed...

 

In the 50s you could not say "pregnant" on tv. Did MORE people become pregnant when that changed?

 

In the 60s tv couples slept in separate twin beds. Did MORE married couples start having more sex when the Bradys started sleeping in one bed???

 

Do you really think that MORE people are ACTUALLY GAY just because they are able to be open about it?

 

It may well be true that polyamorous people will become more accepted by society and it may be true that more people will feel free to pursue this lifestyle openly if it is more tolerable to society.

 

But your assertion that evolutionarily, people as a whole are moving in that direction is one I still hotly disagree with. For one thing, I do not see the evolutionary motive/benefit of such a move, while I do see distinct problems with it. But primarily, human sexual nature has not changed much at all over the years - any student of history can tell you that.

What is the impetus to change to a polyamorous nature? Swinging is what monkeys do, this is what we are supposed to embrace as an aspiration???? I am making a lame joke, but the sentiment is sincere, I like to think that humans are moving toward higher ideals and that concepts like freedom do not revolve around our genitalia.

 

Again, I feel hopeful that our next evolutionary leap will include a greater capacity to understand each other intimately - an increased capacity for openness and more profound love. You can argue that yes, this is what you mean, too and that that will lead to multiple sexual partners...but my counterargument is that it will lead to a sense of fulfillment that makes multiple sexual partners an unnecessary and uninteresting option. With any luck, it will mean fewer idiotic wars, too, but now I am really dreaming.

 

Just to expand slightly, I also feel that one of the main ways that this will be acheived is that over time men and women, whose natures are still quite different, will become closer in nature. This makes sense in terms of changing roles in society, and though we still want there to be some quite desirable differences and mysteries, I think that some movement toward middle ground will facilitate this mutual understanding...

 

Frankly, the idea of a largely polyamorous society sounds anti-family, anti-intimacy and a tad anarchic in terms of how responsibilities get doled out.

 

But, anyway, hope things work out for you...

[grogster]

Both luststarved (I love that name) and OpenBook have stated well the pragmatic arguments against polyamory as social fact and as an evolutionary end point. Unlike the more ideological objections--Jersey Shortie's anti-porn feminism and Moose's Christianity--this pragmatic rebuttal is difficult to refute because it is based on how most real men and women interact in the real world as opposed to how they should act under strongly held belief systems.

 

As OpenBook observes, "Most of us have to actually live in the real world". That's why there will always be pockets of polyamory, and nothing more. Many of us simply choose not to organize our affective lives around such a disruptive principle.

 

As for me, I always ask, "Who benefits?" More often than not, it's the males who benefit from polyamory whether has cult leaders or inside a traditional relationship.

 

As for my ex-GF, she didn't enjoy it when her "Master" forced her to swing. She ended up hating the bastard. Often, feelings interfere with the sexually liberated lifestyle.

[sxyNYCcpl]

OP, there is really nothing in your original post that indicates to me that society is moving toward polyamory.

 

Since I said nothing of the sort, I don't know how you could have seen that. I did use the fact that more and more people are voluntarily including other people in their sex lives (e.g. consensual non-monogamy, aka swinging, which is NOT polyamory as that implies multiple emotional relationships, not just physical) as one of about 8 points illustrating that society's relationship with sex is evolving into something new and different. I stand by that point, but the swinging aspect was not, and is not, intended to be the sole focus of the conversation.

 

Just because society is more open and tolerant does not mean that what's really going on behind closed doors has changed...

 

You are, of course, correct. It could be that while things appear on the surface to be changing, a deeper look reveals it's illusionary. I don't believe that to be the case, but I've been wrong before.

 

In the 50s you could not say "pregnant" on tv. Did MORE people become pregnant when that changed?

 

In the 60s tv couples slept in separate twin beds. Did MORE married couples start having more sex when the Bradys started sleeping in one bed???

 

Do you really think that MORE people are ACTUALLY GAY just because they are able to be open about it?

 

All of these are, IMO, evidence that my thesis is correct, and that society is becoming more tolerant and accepting of new and alternative things. I don't know if the fact that you can routinely see things on TV today that was once verboten means in the real world those things have increased or not. I would guess pregnancy rates have remained about the same. As for homosexuals, I have no evidence to back this up, but my pure guess would be there are far fewer pretending to be something they're not today than in days gone by.

 

But your assertion that evolutionarily, people as a whole are moving in that direction is one I still hotly disagree with. For one thing, I do not see the evolutionary motive/benefit of such a move, while I do see distinct problems with it. But primarily, human sexual nature has not changed much at all over the years - any student of history can tell you that.

 

It's fine that you disagree, but what observations or evidence leads you to that conclusion? I pointed out a number of items in my original post that would tend to indicate that we are in fact changing our practices. That you are not is not a contraindicator, as individuals will always vary.

 

What is the impetus to change to a polyamorous nature? Swinging is what monkeys do, this is what we are supposed to embrace as an aspiration????

 

Once again, swinging was but one example of many, however, if my supposition that the number of people partaking is increasing, that means something.

 

You can argue that yes, this is what you mean, too and that that will lead to multiple sexual partners...but my counterargument is that it will lead to a sense of fulfillment that makes multiple sexual partners an unnecessary and uninteresting option.

 

I don't think increased variety, regardless of topic, will ever be viewed as an uninteresting option by most humans. For many, it will be unacceptable, for a host of reasons, but that doesn't mean uninteresting.

 

Just to expand slightly, I also feel that one of the main ways that this will be acheived is that over time men and women, whose natures are still quite different, will become closer in nature.

 

I think that's happening already, which is what's driving this change. Women are realizing that the old way of doing things, that "good girls don't" is at it's core, a lie. That is enabling them to enhance their own relationship with their sexuality.

 

Frankly, the idea of a largely polyamorous society sounds anti-family, anti-intimacy and a tad anarchic in terms of how responsibilities get doled out.

 

I know I've made this point, but it bears repeating. I did not say anything about polyamory. I have nothing against it, and if you want to discuss it I'm fine with that, but swinging and poly are two different animals.

[Jersey Shortie]

Both luststarved (I love that name) and OpenBook have stated well the pragmatic arguments against polyamory as social fact and as an evolutionary end point. Unlike the more ideological objections--Jersey Shortie's anti-porn feminism and Moose's Christianity--

 

My comments refering to this subject are not idealogical. They are seeing the reprocussions that have infact happened because of the way this subject is regarded. I think men are less willing to be pragmatic about women and porn and sex, then women are, if we are honest with ourselves.

[norajane]

Women were considered sluts if they put out on the first date when I was in my early 20's, and now that I'm 40, they're still considered sluts if they put out on the first date.

 

As long as that slut mentality is prevalent in society, then no, nothing much has changed.

[manugeorge]

And yes, a man in a porno finishing on a woman's face, is degrading. Despite what you think, I think most people would agree that there is a level of degradtion in that, men and women. A man in private doing whatever sexual acts with a woman he actually cares about is different.

 

I don't quite understand this, if what a man and a woman do in the privacy of their own homes is "different" and therefore acceptable, I assume, then who are we to bash them if they decide to incorporate porn into their "private" activities? If a man in a relationship decides to finish on his wife or girlfriend's face and she doesn't mind, who are we to judge them for that?

[Jersey Shortie]

We all judge, that is how we form are opinions. When issues of sexuality come up everyone seems to think that that should fly out the window. And if they don't, you're a prude. It's just not the truth.

 

I likened it to a man taking a woman he barely knows to a fancy restuarant and giving her a free meal to taking the woman he has been in a relationship with to one. It's about intention. It's the difference between me giving random men bjs and me giving the man I care about bjs.

[manugeorge]

We all judge, that is how we form are opinions. When issues of sexuality come up everyone seems to think that that should fly out the window. And if they don't, you're a prude. It's just not the truth.

 

I likened it to a man taking a woman he barely knows to a fancy restuarant and giving her a free meal to taking the woman he has been in a relationship with to one. It's about intention. It's the difference between me giving random men bjs and me giving the man I care about bjs.

 

Right, but you said, and I'm paraphrasing, that while finishing on a woman's face is "degrading", whatever sexual acts two consenting adults deem appropriate in the privacy of their own space is between them.

 

It just seems that that sentiment essentially renders your whole anti- porn argument moot. Porn is bad and evil but if two people in a relationship choose to use it or even perform the "degrading" activities they see in it, then that's different, i.e., their choice, their business.

 

Which I think is what a lot of us try to convey. First of all, that porn being evil is a subjective statement, subjective to each person's experience with it. And that secondly, it's a personal choice.

[Jersey Shortie]

It just seems that that sentiment essentially renders your whole anti- porn argument moot.

 

 

Not at all. I see the point you are attempting to make but I never told anyone that they could or couldn't look at porn. I have never told any boyfriend of mine he could or couldn't look at porn. I have never dictated the choices that another person should make. Would I prefer that men put down the porn in favor or real life women? Of course! Do I demand it? Not at all. Expressing my opinion about porn is not demanding that anyone do as I wish. It is about saying what I think and possibly having it resonate with other people or not. That's their choice. I actually think I pose many good questions.

 

I can perfectly and resonably think porn is a huge negative in the way it treats and depicts people and how many people use it now-a-days and still think that what goes on between a couple that loves each other is vastly different then what goes on in a porn video. The way I view sexuality is not so deeply connected to a porn movie. I am not under the mind set that I have to respect and understand and be supportive of every sex act people want to do. I don't think everything under the sun is okay. I don't think the same way about my ideas on politics, raising children, or global warming. And I am not going to conform to a mindset about sex in the name of not being seen as a prude and having to accpet everything everyone else wants to be true. Would I tell people and demand they must stop doing these sex acts? That would be ridiculous. That doesn't mean I agree with them or think they add value or respect what the real relationships between men and women is suppose to be.

 

Intention and reasons why you do do things matter greatly. I don't think men are bringing porn into their life or their partner's life is with the pure intention of thinking about their partner or thinking about and respecting women in a way that women deserve to be thought about and respected. I think people like to lay claim that involving porn enhances their relationship when they are misconstruing it enhancing their orgasm instead. I don't know what about watching other people have sex enhances a real couples bond. Especially when most men aren't even looking at that woman like she is a human being but just boobs and butt. I don't watch Top Gun and see the dreamy and romantic Tom Cruise rule the runway and think that it enhances my relationship with my partner. Ridiculous.

 

 

Which I think is what a lot of us try to convey. First of all, that porn being evil is a subjective statement, subjective to each person's experience with it. And that secondly, it's a personal choice.

 

The degree of porn and it's level of degradation to men and women can be subjective, but I still think most people recongnize the way it does infact treat the women in it. I don't think most people believe porn depicts women in a way that honestly helps women.... or men for that matter. And I don't know any man that would want a woman he really valued to be in a porn. That speaks volumes right there about what men think about porn. And indirectly, it might speak volumes about how men think about women.

[manugeorge]

Somehow your posts never come across as "This is just my opinion, BUT your life, your choice". That's why they are so annoying.

[Mr. Lucky]

Not at all. I see the point you are attempting to make but I never told anyone that they could or couldn't look at porn.

You're splitting hairs here as you consistently preach as to whether they should or shouldn't look at porn. I understand Jersey that you've made a personal choice not to approve of porn. Certainly your right. But what gives you the right to judge other consenting adults that have chosen differently?

I have never dictated the choices that another person should make.

Well, you have consistently labeled men that look at porn (without regard to frequency or content) as cheaters, liars and frauds. As I've posted before, life has a way of humbling "holier than thou" people like yourself. While you have every right to choose for yourself, I remain unclear as to the qualifications that enable you to judge the conduct of others...

 

Mr. Lucky

[grogster]

A sure fire way to feel better about oneself: Pick a vice or sin (or any human weakness); Confirm that you've never committed the selected sin; Make your sin-pick the root of all, and I mean all, Evil; Find a soapbox--virtual or real, it doesn't matter; Denounce every single person who has a weakness for your vice-pick regardless of context, situation, degree or common sense; Bask in your glory and your righteousness.

 

Other people's sins are always so much worse than our own.

[Agoraphobianebula]

And I don't know any man that would want a woman he really valued to be in a porn. That speaks volumes right there about what men think about porn. And indirectly, it might speak volumes about how men think about women.

 

Hey, I wouldn't want anyone I value to be a janitor or street sweeper either but that doesn't make it any less of a honest living. Ultimately it's about choice for people who participate in or watch porn. FREEDOM OF CHOICE and not a dictatorship...is what makes this country great. NOBODY wants to give that basic human freedom up. Pornography is punishable by death in some small countries, people are not exactly scrambling to live there.

 

I agree that no man or woman for that matter wants their children to be porn actors. But guess what, no matter what you personally want for your children, they will still grow up to be whatever they desire to be, you know, they being individuals and all.

 

Your posts about porn do, in fact, portray what you think people should and do not do, in the privacy of their homes. If not, no one would get on your case nearly as much as they do on LS. They don't come across as merely YOUR opinion, they come across as mandates. "Women this and men that, MOST MEN this and MOST WOMEN that". The arrogance and presumption of speaking for ALL people is what's irritating not your personal opinion about porn. You conveniently shut down and shut out women who do, in fact, enjoy porn by implying they are just doing it to please men because it's all about men and men don't care about women blah blah blah.

 

I mean who really cares if you hate porn? except the person that's fu*king you, I don't think anyone gives a rat's ass just like you shouldn't give a rat's ass about what debauchery I or any other poster get into in the privacy of our bedroom.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Essentially you said in your first post that I'm not "evolving" with the rest of society if I prefer to keep my sexual practices PRIVATE, and (to give a specific example) am not inclined to pork a roomful of strangers.

 

I said nothing of the sort, when I first wrote those words I didn't even know you existed, now that I do I still don't know enough about you to have an opinion one way or the other. When it comes to people sharing their sexuality outside their primary relationship, it was but one example of more than a handful, and I explicitly said that it was not (yet, anyway) the norm. That you choose not to do so says nothing about whether or not you are evolving.

 

Now, I did say that women who wish to hold on to the idea that "good girls don't" are being left behind, and that I felt sorry for them. I have no idea if that describes you or not, but unless your goal is to be as asexual as possible while giving in to your husband just barely enough to where he won't leave you because of it, to some degree or another you have evolved, as that was pretty much SOP for all women in generations gone by.

 

And BTW, it's a LOT more than "preconceptions" that keep us women from exploring our sexuality like you men do. Most men continue to view promiscuous women as sluts and whores, and do not value or respect them as human beings.

 

99% of our relationship with, and response to our sexuality is learned behavior, so it most certainly is your preconceptions. Things such as your preconception that swinging is wrong. I do not know why you believe that, but somewhere during your life, your parents, or teachers, or church leaders, or friends, or some combination of the above told you that sexual monogamy was the only appropriate way to practice your sexuality, and you believed them. Your vision of how things are "supposed to be" creates the very preconceptions you attempt to reflect in your reality.

 

Humans are SUPPOSED TO BE monogamous.

 

We are NOT SUPPOSED TO look at dirty movies.

 

Sex is SUPPOSED TO BE something done in private, with the doors closed and the lights off.

 

And on, and on, and on. People are starting to really question why instead of blindly accepting those standards though, which is why we are where we are.

 

I don't know what kind of people you associate with where sexually aggressive woman are routinely sneered at and looked down upon. Most men to whom I have spoken to about the issue either are happy their partners are aggressive, dissapointed they are not, or seeking someone who is should they not find they're currently in a relationship, or are seeking to terminate whatever relationship they're in. Are there exceptions? Of course, when the topic of discussion is human behavior there always are.

 

I read an article recently, written by a feminist author whose name escapes me. The thesis of her article was essentially feeling sorry for herself because as a woman, it used to be good enough just to show up naked. Now men expect personal grooming "below the waist", and expect women to perform sex acts that in the "good old days" they didn't have to do. They expect women to actually *gasp* initiate sex, and to *oh my* enjoy it!!

 

The thing is, I think she has a point.

 

If her goal is to be considered good enough by simply showing up naked, with no attention given to grooming, and with no intention of doing anything but laying there like a cold fish and taking it she's going to have a hard time getting or keeping a man like that. Why? Because men want sexual women. Generations ago, men could (and did) want that, but it quite simply wasn't really available. Today it is widespread and normal, and those who like and want the cold fish approach are in trouble, as men now have the option to not accept that.

 

Frankly, that article is why I've concluded that women changing their sexual outlook is the root of the societal changes we're seeing. Men want sexual women, women are providing that, and that results in competitive pressures on those who are not.

[Sks]

A sure fire way to feel better about oneself: Pick a vice or sin (or any human weakness); Confirm that you've never committed the selected sin; Make your sin-pick the root of all, and I mean all, Evil; Find a soapbox--virtual or real, it doesn't matter; Denounce every single person who has a weakness for your vice-pick regardless of context, situation, degree or common sense; Bask in your glory and your righteousness.

 

Other people's sins are always so much worse than our own.

 

So you do not believe in standards?

[grogster]

So you do not believe in standards?

 

Whose standards? Yours? Jersey Shortie's? Moose's? Gov. Palin's? A Sunni Iman's? The Bible's? The Koran's? Some Mullah's? An Orthodox Jew's? A Baptist's?

 

Standards don't exist in a vacuum. Everyone has his or her favorite "standards" which they expect everyone else to follow. Why? Because they're standards. And around and around we go.

[manugeorge]

Whose standards? Yours? Jersey Shortie's? Moose's? Gov. Palin's? A Sunni Iman's? The Bible's? The Koran's? Some Mullah's? An Orthodox Jew's? A Baptist's?

 

Standards don't exist in a vacuum. Everyone has his or her favorite "standards" which they expect everyone else to follow. Why? Because they're standards. And around and around we go.

 

Amen!

 

Who gets to be the moral authority? Who has that qualification when we are all humans and we all wear our pants one leg at a time?.

 

Unless your sh*t don't stink, then I'll say live and let live.

[Sks]

Whose standards? Yours? Jersey Shortie's? Moose's? Gov. Palin's? A Sunni Iman's? The Bible's? The Koran's? Some Mullah's? An Orthodox Jew's? A Baptist's?

 

Standards don't exist in a vacuum. Everyone has his or her favorite "standards" which they expect everyone else to follow. Why? Because they're standards. And around and around we go.

 

It comes down to what is best for society as a whole, because as you said, standards, morals and right/wrong are all that of ones personal views.

 

These type of relationships are damaging to society as they promote the destruction of the family structure.

[grogster]

It comes down to what is best for society as a whole, because as you said, standards, morals and right/wrong are all that of ones personal views.

 

These type of relationships are damaging to society as they promote the destruction of the family structure.

 

The same old, tired relativism rejoinder.

 

Answer my question if you can: Whose standards?

[Jersey Shortie]

You're splitting hairs here as you consistently preach as to whether they should or shouldn't look at porn. I understand Jersey that you've made a personal choice not to approve of porn. Certainly your right. But what gives you the right to judge other consenting adults that have chosen differently?

And you are confusing having an opinion and sharing it to meaning that all must accept my opinion just by justification that I express it. And the right that I have to judge other consenting adults that choose differently is the same right you have every time you make a comment based on your judgements on me. I am not a sexual prude, but neither am I of the mindframe that anything sexual goes. I think there are reprocussions for our actions, individual and social.

Well, you have consistently labeled men that look at porn (without regard to frequency or content) as cheaters, liars and frauds. As I've posted before, life has a way of humbling "holier than thou" people like yourself. While you have every right to choose for yourself, I remain unclear as to the qualifications that enable you to judge the conduct of others...

 

 

Mr. Lucky

It's not that I think I am holier than thou. I have many pitfalls that I try to work on. I am, believe it or not, pretty understanding to pitfalls of men. I admit though when it comes to issues of porn and the likes, I am more biased and have a harder time digesting it. For my own reasons obviously. I do lable men a certain way who view porn. I don't really understand how you can blame me. I look at porn and see the labels men have of women in return. You can't support a medium that is negative in nature to the female gender and not expect there to be a throwback. That has nothing to do wit hbeing holier then though then trying to understand an issue. I am somewhat an optimist in thinking that people just might understand and see things a certain way if you share your views.

 

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Hey, I wouldn't want anyone I value to be a janitor or street sweeper either but that doesn't make it any less of a honest living.

Perhaps thats the difference between you and I. I offer the same respect to the janitor as I do the Executive Director and do not consider one better then the other. I infact have someone close in my life that picked up other people's garbage for years. And I don't know a man more hard working and deserving of respect then him. It's funny that we argue the issue of respecting people or not until it becomes about "me and mine".

 

Ultimately it's about choice for people who participate in or watch porn. FREEDOM OF CHOICE and not a dictatorship...is what makes this country great.

Did I ever condone that there should be legal dictaroship action taken to remove porn? No. The irony is arguing freedom when something like porn is about opression in a way.

 

 

Your posts about porn do, in fact, portray what you think people should and do not do, in the privacy of their homes.

Sweetie, everyone's posts you protray what they think other people should and shouldn't do. Even the ones that protray the idealogoy that we should be accepting of everyone's actions.

 

 

You conveniently shut down and shut out women who do, in fact, enjoy porn by implying they are just doing it to please men because it's all about men and men don't care about women blah blah blah.

I never said that the only woman that enjoyed porn where the ones that did it to please a man. Edited March 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Agoraphobianebula]

Perhaps thats the difference between you and I. I offer the same respect to the janitor as I do the Executive Director and do not consider one better then the other. I infact have someone close in my life that picked up other people's garbage for years. And I don't know a man more hard working and deserving of respect then him. It's funny that we argue the issue of respecting people or not until it becomes about "me and mine".

 

Hon, you just upheld my point, Executive director, Janitor, Pornstar, a honest living is still a honest living but you will encourage your children to pick exactly one of those 3 professions now, wouldn't you? I don't exactly see a parent cheering on a child who's dream is to be a High School Janitor, do you? would you?

So the argument that you shouldn't watch porn because you won't encourage your children to be pornstars is a little distorted, don't you think? I won't encourage my kids to become janitors but I still use the services of a Janitor, don't I?

Oh wait, right, I forgot, Porn is evil but being a janitor isn't?

 

Did I ever condone that there should be legal dictaroship action taken to remove porn? No. The irony is arguing freedom when something like porn is about opression in a way. Sweetie, everyone's posts you protray what they think other people should and shouldn't do. Even the ones that protray the idealogoy that we should be accepting of everyone's actions.

 

No, what you condone is moral dictatorship and control. I've been reading these porn posts for a while, way before I ever decided to post and not in any of it have you made any insinuation or even hinted that even though you personally don't agree with porn, you respect other people's choices to do as they please in their own relationships.

And get it right, accepting other people's behavior is not the same as respecting their choice to conduct live as they see fit. That is not an ideaology, it's basic human decency. You don't have to accept anything. Like I said earlier, I DON'T GIVE A **** THAT YOU DON'T LIKE PORN, do you, my dear. I'm not arguing the merits of porn with you and I'm not asking you to change your mind about it. I absolutely respect your choice not to want anything to do with porn.

 

I never said that the only woman that enjoyed porn where the ones that did it to please a man

 

This is a bold face lie, yes you have. Pull up all your anti-porn posts and re-read them, yes you have so don't even try and backpedal now. Besides, I don't exactly see you admitting that yes there are indeed women who enjoy porn as sexual stimulant and nothing more.

You argue the detriments of porn, A woman comes back and says, well her experience with it is actually contrary to your views. Common sense says, well, to each his own. But you don't agree with common sense.