Should I Pretend I Don't Care (When I Do)?

[serial muse]

Once in the mariage, there was no getting out.

 

but

 

My wife and I have had the arrangement for many years that we live separate lives, I know of her affairs and she has encouraged me to have affairs.

 

Bob, I get that you're hurting, but while you still believe these two things are simultaneously reasonable, I can't possibly take what you say about your faith at face value.

 

This is not about your faith, because you and your wife are already both willing to compromise that in multiple ways, as long as nobody in your community finds out. And it's not about your wife's feelings, because she's in the same boat you are. So those things don't really enter into it, except as red herrings.

 

You are staying in this marriage because of:

 

1. your kids

2. your standing in the community

 

That's it.

 

So. Those aren't trivial things, but that's the deal. Don't confuse the issue with other stuff. It sounds like you're saying that these two things trump your love for this other woman. Is that right? Then you've already made your choice.

 

I do think you should talk to your wife about it, though. Why not, if she's encouraged you to do exactly what you wanted to do?

 

Seriously, why won't you talk to her??

 

Something here doesn't add up.

[Reggie]

Yes, something is screwy here. We have a guy whose wife has openly cheated for years and who encourages him to do the same. But, he fears discovery? And, despite his deep religous convictions, has cheated and allows his wife to desecrate the marriage for years with full consent. This makes no sense. Daily mass, rosary session, watch the kids while the wife gets laid, take some time to mess around yourself and hide it when you don't need to because your wife is okay with it, whip in a couple novena's and buy some plenary indulgences, kiss the wife and kids goodnight and get up and do the same routine tomorrow. What's the problem? Make nine first Fridays, for a security plenary indulgence and you have carte blanc.

[huggybear1]

I agree with some of what Reggie says. Bob you said that you love your wife like a sister but are not in love with her. That isn't going to change, so why not look for a solution. Love and sexual intimacy are needs that have to be fulfilled somehow. I see that you have a few options here. You can 1. get a divorce, 2. stay married to your wife and forget all other women, or 3. stay married and share what you and your wife cannot with the OW, provided the OW can accept that. If it were me and I didn't want to get divorced, I would go with option 3. If you're running into this trouble now you'll run into it later on to, if you stay married.

 

Your wife is finding what she needs outside the marriage and is asking you to do the same for pete's sake. Didn't you say that you and your wife are friends and companions but not lovers? As long as you continue to be a friend and companion and a good father, why can't you share the intimacy with the OW? Give the OW the choice. If she wants that she'll go for it, if not then you'll know. If you don't get a divorce, will she understand that? What's the point of living in constant distress and anguish if you don't have to?

 

Another thing, why are you discussing this with your brother and priest? Is your brother in a "loveless" marriage? They are probably not the best people to give advice about this. If I were you, I would put aside my religious views on this one and do what I felt I had to do. I think its better to find a solution once and for all. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Bob54]

Maybe I wasn't really clear about this before: my wife and I have talked about my attraction to this OW. She knows that I am interested in the OW, that we are friends, that I met her through work, that we've spent some intimate time together but have not been sexual.

 

Since things aren't going anywhere with the OW right now past platonic friendship and work, that's all my wife needs to know. That's all there really is to tell at the moment. I haven't made any decisions.

 

Huggybear asked if my brothers' marriage is loveless. Yes, most of the marriages in my very large family are, honestly. It's just the way things are done, and have been done in my family for generations. The majority of our marriages are arranged, in a way, for social status. We are always expected to marry a person of our economic or social level, someone from a "good family," and then stay with them. Our marriages are sadly, rarely about love.

 

Yes, it is contradictory to have devout Catholics who routinely stray on their spouses, but that is the reality of life and the church. We are all sinners, and no one is 100% true to the teachings of their faith all of the time. If we did, we'd be perfect, and I have yet to meet anyone who's perfect.

 

In life, you just do the best you can, we're all human and have feelings and needs that sometimes don't mesh with "the rules" set forth by our church or the state. I'm guessing that is why a board like Love shack exists - especially the infidelity and OM/OW forums. I'm not the first person to have this dilemma, you know? And I won't be the last.

[carhill]

Would your W agree to an open marriage? If you both get along, and everyone is on the same page, home tensions would lessen IMO. The only sticky wicket is the kids, since I know how conventional wisdom and your faith are regarding setting an example for them. It might become one of those "do as I say, not as I do" conflicts. I'm clearly not an advocate of open marriages, but suggest it as one alternative path.

 

How does your wife feel about the OW? I know you said she encouraged you to "have affairs", but, with the spectre of one looming right now, is she still maintaining that perspective? Is she also of the mindset that the family and the lifestyle should continue without regard to your individual proclivities or needs?

 

As this is your second marriage, do you have an additional fear about what a second divorce would say about you, personally? Why?

[westrock]

Maybe I wasn't really clear about this before: my wife and I have talked about my attraction to this OW. She knows that I am interested in the OW, that we are friends, that I met her through work, that we've spent some intimate time together but have not been sexual.

 

Since things aren't going anywhere with the OW right now past platonic friendship and work, that's all my wife needs to know. That's all there really is to tell at the moment. I haven't made any decisions.

 

Let me get this straight.... you openly talk to your wife about attraction to an OW, you know your wife has affairs, and she encourages you to have affairs. Yet the two of you don't talk about whether to just call it quits or to work on saving your marriage? Something is screwed up here. Why are you avoiding having this discussion with your wife?

 

I think that you and your wife secretly enjoy the arrangment the two of you have with each other. Just reading your last post all I see is someone who is rationalizing why his behavior is okay.

[jj33]

 

A few days later, she told me that although she wants me and wishes I were single, she can't let herself get drawn into an affair with a MM. She respects herself, and my wife/kids, and I respect her even more for that.

 

She told me that she wanted to keep me in her life because we've already shared so much, have a wonderful connection, and have built a great friendship. She says that I'm already her best friend, but hopes that we can limit our interaction to that only. Platonic love as friends only.

 

 

Hello what about this OW? She is not interested in an affair.

 

Bob dont be selfish. This woman does not want the pain and misery of an affair regardless of what you and your W think is OK. Dont be so selfish as to seduce her into something that works for you and your W just because you want to have your cake and eat it too and your wife doesnt mind. THIS WOMAN WHO YOU SUPPOSEDLY LOVE MINDS. And if you push the affair knowing how she feels you are implying you have a real future together.

 

I was in a position that was very similar. And in the end it didnt matter that his W was OK with the fact that he led his own life. It wasnt OK for me but it was a very very painful process.

 

So until you are clear on whether you want to be married or not, if you care AT ALL for this woman, do the decent thing and keep your distance from this woman. If you have any doubt about being able to keep it platonic stay away.

 

You would be doing her a great disservice and as morals and religion seem to be so important to you, thats not the decent moral or Christian thing to do.

[Owl]

Yes, it is contradictory to have devout Catholics who routinely stray on their spouses, but that is the reality of life and the church. We are all sinners, and no one is 100% true to the teachings of their faith all of the time. If we did, we'd be perfect, and I have yet to meet anyone who's perfect.

 

In life, you just do the best you can, we're all human and have feelings and needs that sometimes don't mesh with "the rules" set forth by our church or the state. I'm guessing that is why a board like Love shack exists - especially the infidelity and OM/OW forums. I'm not the first person to have this dilemma, you know? And I won't be the last.

 

Hey Bob...what does your faith teach you about sin, and the forgiveness of it?

 

How/when does God forgive you for your sin?

 

What does He require of you before He can forgive you for it?

 

Its something that I see completely lacking in ANY of your posts on this subject, and its why I simply cannot understand your attempt at "justifying" your actions.

[Bob54]

One of the posters asked above if my W would consider an open marriage. Essentially, that's what we already have. We have talked before about getting divorced, but always agreed that it was better for the family & our kids if we stayed together & discreetly lived separate lives.

 

When I told my wife about this OW, she honestly seemed amused. I think she felt relieved or was happy for me that I'd finally found someone I was intersted in...she was playfully egging me on to go forward w/ the affair. I know it seems strange, but we kid of joke and rib each other about our "others." I really think she would be happy to see me happy, even if that means having an affair outside the bounds of our marriage.

 

She has a lover who keeps her happy, thus taking pressure off of me. I think she'd like the same for me. Someone to take some pressure off her.

 

Nonetheless, the last poster was correct: it really doesn't matter if my wife and I are okay w/ an open marriage...it is NOT ok with the OW. She has made that abundantly clear.

 

So if I want to pursue her, I will have to leave my marriage, either by separation or divorce. That's the battle I'm fighting w/ myself now.

 

And to make things even tougher right now, I just talked to the OW by phone this morning and she mentioned that she "met someone interesting" and that they had a date last night. And he's single. She might just be testing me to see if she gets a jealous reaction, I don't know, or maybe she's just confiding in me as a"friend" (since that's all I am to her now), but ouch, it really hurt to hear that.

[carhill]

OK, so really, for you, the fact that the OW won't be a party to an open marriage is the real issue. It sounds like your wife already has an outside lover and is comfortable with your marital arrangement. Assume the OW won't change her mind. What's next? Have you been out seriously looking for a lover for some time now? You might find that there are more potentials than you currently are aware of. It occurs to me that one of our members, Lizzie60, might understand your perspective better than most and could offer some of her experiences and advice.

 

At this juncture, I would respect the OW's wishes to move away from your affair and enter into a relationship which is healthy for her. You know her boundary. Say your appropriate goodbye's and let her go. You can do it. It's really hard, but you can. You're doing it because you love and respect her, not because of any loyalty to your W or M.

[2sunny]

from what i've read here your faith hasn't served you very well.

 

seeing that you took your vows of marriage under false pretenses - it's a sham.

 

you admit to approaching the marriage out of obligation and not love. i see an issue with stating that you will love, honor and cherish another - only to understand clearly that you had no intention of doing so. your wife, as you stated, has the same perspective... total disregard to vows designed to be taken seriously.

 

your claim to embrace your religion are unwarranted. a new perspective of how to LIVE the basic guidelines of your belief system may do you some good.

 

in the meantime, divorce your wife. you were never committed or married to begin with. whatever happens down the road with the OW remains to be seen. wait until after the divorce is final to date anyone. that will complicate things a little less.

 

take a look at your religion from a new perspective... you are manipulating the basic guidelines of decency to be justified for your own benefit. your conscience should be your guide.

[DealingWDrama]

Marriage doesn't have to be loveless. Love is a choice...what you are feeling are natural endorphins that men and women both feel when they are attracted to another human being. If you want to have a fulfilling marriage with your wife - you cannot continue to be friends with this woman. There is a book I would like to suggest for you...it's call The Five Love Languages by Gary Smalley. Perhaps your wife is just as unhappy in your marriage as you are...there is an opportunity here for you to be happy and for your wife to be happy. As a Catholic, you know that God hates divorce and doesn't like infidelity at all. Although you haven't had sexual intercourse with this woman, you have already had an affair - an emotional affair! Decide if you want to be married - if you do, don't be a lier and betrayer - file for divorce. Who knows if this other woman will even be there once you are divorced.

[Terminator]

Your conflict seems to be not with your faith but with your actions while professing to have same.

 

Never knew Catholicism embraced open marriage.

 

I learn something new every day here.

[jj33]

 

And to make things even tougher right now, I just talked to the OW by phone this morning and she mentioned that she "met someone interesting" and that they had a date last night. And he's single. She might just be testing me to see if she gets a jealous reaction, I don't know, or maybe she's just confiding in me as a"friend" (since that's all I am to her now), but ouch, it really hurt to hear that.

 

 

Wake up Bob. You are not the center of her universe. You are a married man who is trying to lure her into something that is not in her best interest. You are being incredibly selfish.

 

No she is not saying that to make you jealous. Why would she? She told you she doesnt want to be a party to this.

 

You are living a fantasy. Maybe this is good for you. It is finally forcing you to see that perhaps there is more to life than keeping up appearances for the greater good. And maybe you want to rethink your marriage. Maybe you dont but leave the OW alone in the romance department.

 

Until you sort out your life you have nothing to offer her unless you are able to really be her friend in the platonic sense.

 

I dont mean to be hard on you I am dealing with a similar situation and it is really infuriating that you guys seem to think that we should want this just because it works for you and your wife. It doesnt. Been there done that got the Tshirt. But this woman is smarter than I was. She saw that from day 1.

[GPFan]

So, what should I do? I'm thinking about just trying to act like I don't care for her at all, or acting mean just to drive her away. I don't seem to be able to muster the courage to tell her that I can't be her friend, that the feeling is too strong, to confess how I really feel...and it would be an exercise in futility anyway. She knows I'm married and that my situation is unlikely to change until my kids get older. I don't want to hurt her feelings, and it hurts like hell to deny my feelings...I'm 54 and realize this might be my last chance at real love before I get too old...and yet it would be selfish of me to drag this woman into an affair.

 

I have confided in one of my brothers about this and also my priest - and they both give me the Catholic moral argument, of course. They tell me to leave this woman alone, no matter what it takes, no friendship, just drop her like a hot potato & RUN...might be good advice, but that is a lot easier said than done! They don't understand, so I came here hoping that some of you will...you've been there before, right?

 

Do you think the advice they are giving me is solid? Should I just disappear from this woman's life, not give an explanation? I know this will hurt her b/c we've gotten so close, and I never want to hurt her.

 

They are telling me the only way is to make a clean break, even if I have to pretend I don't care for her. They tell me to stop talking to her, stop seeing her, do't answer her calls, don't respond to texts, just vanish.

 

This seems awfully cold, but I can see the logic in it, I guess. Have any of you ever had to resort to this method to forget someone? Did it work? Was the pain you felt and caused worth it?

 

Any advice is appreciated. Sorry this post was long. I just need help!

I agree you need to establish no contact until your feelings settle or subside. I disagree that this should be done with no forewarning. That seems so very cruel.

 

I suggest you establish no contact after discussing your reasons why with her.

 

I hope this helps.

[courting17]

Oh, she is trying to make you jealous. She did not have to tell you that at all. She wanted a reaction, trust me. But, the point is, you need to stop chatting. Really, you will never get over her and same goes for her, if you continue this contact. I know it is going to be hard, but honestly, you will get through it. It will be soo much harder if you continue and six months from now try to break it off.

[Bob54]

from what i've read here your faith hasn't served you very well.

 

seeing that you took your vows of marriage under false pretenses - it's a sham.

 

you admit to approaching the marriage out of obligation and not love. i see an issue with stating that you will love, honor and cherish another - only to understand clearly that you had no intention of doing so. your wife, as you stated, has the same perspective... total disregard to vows designed to be taken seriously..

 

Well, what was I supposed to do when she turned up pregnant? NOT do the right thing & marry her? NOT step up and try to be a good father?

 

Was I supposed to tell her, "best of luck at being a single mom. I don't love you and don't want anything to do with the life we've created?"

 

Remember, abortion was never an option.

[Bob54]

...on the OW: She has kept in touch in a "friendly" way but has become much more distant since she started dating this new guy. She sends me texts (on business & friendly stuff) once or twice a week but never calls me anymore.

 

Last week, I was so desperate to hear her voice that instead of returning her text message like I usually do, I just picked up the phone and called her. I know I probably shouldn't have, but it was a moment of weakness...and I must confess that curiosity about her new BF is killing me. I wanted to learn more about this and if it's turning serious...even if I just had to play the role of attentive listener and "friend."

 

She didn't answer when I called so I left a message on her voicemail. Tried to sound as friendly as possible, no pressure, just told her I'd be traveling all weekend and that I'd be available if she wanted to talk.

 

No return call....nothing for 5 days. Then, she sends me a text msg instead of calling me back. She said, "sorry for not getting back to you sooner...it's been a really busy week!" Is this an excuse?

 

It's like she doesn't want to talk in person and is avoiding me, but still being "friendly" by sending a text every so often.

 

She has sent a couple of polite texts since, and I haven't replied to any of them just because I'm hurt and kind of mad at her. Am I not important enough to merit a quick phone call, especially if we're friends?

 

She texted me aggain Friday about a business matter, and again, I didn't send a text reply. Instead, I picked up the phone & tried to reachh her. Again, no answer. This time, I didn't leave a voice message. Just hung up.

 

Needless to say, she hasn't called back.

 

I will admit that I'm feeling obsessed at this point, can't seem to stop thinking about her, especially her being with another man drives me crazy! Both times I called her recently, it was on a Friday night around 7pm, just to satisfy my curiosity about what (or who) she's doing for the weekend. We always used to talk on Fridays and share our weekend plans, it was a little habit we got into. But now that she's found this other guy, I know she is spending her weekends with him...and this is how I know.

 

If I call her on a Friday night and she doesn't return the call for days...or at all...that indicates she is clearly focused on someone else. And now I feel like if I don't do something soon to let this woman know how much I care, I'm going to lose her to this other guy.

 

No, I don't think she's bluffing to make me jealous. If she had been, don't you guys think she would have called me back just to press my buttons? If she's ignoring me, that tells me she really does have someone new in her life, possibly her bed.

 

What should I do? Tell her I don't like this? That if she wants to talk to me she should pick up the phone? Should I deliver the "are we friends or not?" ultimatum and find out if her offer of friendship was genuine, or just a polite way to get rid of me?

[carhill]

If you were "friends", she'd communicate with you like a friend. I've been in this situation and have such a friend. We respect each other and the boundaries our respective relationships create. We do not disrespect each other by playing games. As I said upthread, it sounds like your friend has different intentions, that being a romantic relationship with another man, and has no illusions about having a platonic relationship with you. I would opine her distance is a polite way to discourage you from continuing. I think it's time to heal this one. If you want a lover for your open marriage, there are plenty of women out there for you. Apparently, this one is not one of them

[phoenixrising]

Bob, I've been the OW in a situation such as yours, only I was naive enough to believe that I was 'the one" for him, and that he wanted to leave his marriage to share a life with me. Your OW is doing the only thing she can to keep her life healthy - she knows you can't give her what she needs, so she's moving on to live a life that perhaps offers her the opportunity to meet someone who can.

 

How selfish that you say, "...if I don't do something soon to let this woman know how much I care, I'm going to lose her to this other guy" when you have no intention of leaving your marriage.

 

It doesn't matter that "you don't like this", Bob! How can she be friends with you, and you with her, when you have such strong feelings for each other? I tried this with my xMM... how in the world do you think it made me feel to have an incredible evening, then say good night so he could go home and sleep with someone else????

 

I have heard these words about ME from my xMM... he's said things like, "if you are with someone else it will be the end for us"... WTH??? What a double standard!!! And oh, so selfish!

 

I beg to differ with you, based on my experience and the incredible hurt I am still feeling after being with my MM so long. My advice to your OW would be to do exactly what she is doing. Be polite, do what you need to do for work, but MOVE ON. You can't give her what she wants. You need to figure out if you love her, and want to give her what she needs, or if you simply "love her" for what she can give to you.

 

As the xOW, who has gone through this for over 4 years now with an xMM who sounds exactly like you, I simply don't get it. Why not let her go? You've made your decision, and she's made hers. Do you want to see her live a life of emotional pain knowing you've already chosen another woman to share your life with??? Geezz, Bob... think of someone besides yourself for a change.

[phoenixrising]

... and I don't think she's bluffing to make you jealous. She doesn't sound like that kind of person. Besides, what would that provide for her? Self satisfaction? A realization on your part that you love her?

 

You both know you love each other, don't you? But does that really matter at this point? My xMM and I love each other very much, I have no doubt about that. But you've already told her that you will stay with your wife, so what does that leave for your OW? Sitting in the background waiting for you to have some free time? She can't share in the pleasure of watching you with your children, she can't hang out with you and your friends, she can't be honest with hers (or if she is, as I was, they will feel she deserves more...).

 

You say you can't stand the idea that she is perhaps sleeping with someone else... don't you think she feels the same way about you???

 

Moving on is difficult, but you should consider doing this for her if you do love her. Either that, or make the decision not to live in a sham marriage for appearances only.

 

Life ain't easy, but please don't make it harder for her because you don't want to change YOUR situation. Chances are she's going through enough as it is.

 

Your OW appears to be a kind, strong woman who is not afraid to make difficult decisions and set firm boundaries. As long as you are married, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to expect anything less from her. You appear to be a married man who simply wants a second woman in his life, and she doesn't want to be that second woman. I admire her, because I know it has not been easy for her to make this choice. But it's the right choice.

[westrock]

Am I not important enough to merit a quick phone call, especially if we're friends?

 

Is your marriage not important enough to merit a husband who puts his attention on his marriage, especially if you two are husband and wife and you refuse to divorce?

 

It seems that you love your wife more than you love this OW, but you are afraid to admit it. Otherwise, if you love this OW more, you would have done anything to make her happy including divorcing your wife to be with her. The OW knows this and that's why she's moving on to someone who can give her his full attention.

[phoenixrising]

Bob, I just can't get your words out of my mind, because I've been grappling with this on my own end for so long.

 

I have some questions for you - as you know you will stay married, what is it that you are asking from the OW? If you could have it your way, what would you like to see happen? Would you like her to remain your friend, even though you know you both have incredibly strong feelings for each other? If remaining friends affects her ability to focus on a relationship with someone new, do you still want the friendship? Wouldn't it be frustrating to you to not 'move forward' within the relationship? Are you satisfied with not having a full and honest relationship with the OW? It seems to me that you don't really know what you want for yourself, in or out of any of these two relationships. What prevents you from taking some time alone to figure this out?

 

I've asked these questions of xMM, and he just kept saying he was "confused". When I met xMM I knew he was the one. No doubt. I still feel that way, but have had to respond in a similar fashion to that of your OW, because I want a full relationship with somone. There's no chance of this with a MM... I think because you are willing to accept less for yourself with regard to marriage and relationship, you think that she should feel the same way. I enjoy giving to my partner, knowing that I am giving all of myself. You seem to be satisfied giving parts of yourself to everyone around you. But I wonder, deep inside, if you really are happy living your life like this...

 

Perhaps some time for self reflection is needed, rather than focusing on what the OW is thinking and doing with her life. It appears you may have some work to do within prior to being able to commit to any relationship, whether it be with your W or your OW... just my thoughts having had to deal with this from the OW standpoint...

[norajane]

What should I do? Tell her I don't like this? That if she wants to talk to me she should pick up the phone? Should I deliver the "are we friends or not?" ultimatum and find out if her offer of friendship was genuine, or just a polite way to get rid of me?

 

You do realize that you're talking about making demands on a woman who is 1) not your wife, 2) not your gf, 3) 15 years younger than you, and 4) could completely cut you out of her life much much easier than you can stop thinking about her?

 

You already have ALL the answers you need. She's moved on from your little flirtation and has no desire or need to be as close with you as you want from her.

 

Time for you to let it go - you aren't interested in friendship. You are interested in HER, and anything she does won't be enough for you.

[whichwayisup]

This woman has no obligations to you, nor does she owe you ANY explanation of what she does and who she sees in her life. You are the married one, you have a wife.

 

The OW is going on with HER life because she has been hurt by you and can't deal with being the OW anymore. GOOD FOR HER for moving on, letting go of you.

 

Please, stop being selfish and let her go. You can't make ANY committment to her, so why should she put her life on hold for a MM? I agree, you're interested in her for your own reasons, but you don't 'care' about her and her wellbeing, seeing HER happy. THAT is love, unselfish. What you feel for her is selfish and ME ME ME orintated.