Should I Pretend I Don't Care (When I Do)?

[RobertLS]

And what am I supposed to do, give my wife an ultimatum and tell her to dump her boyfriend of 5 years or she'll lose me forever?

 

And what purpose exactly would that serve? Either she will a) obey my demand and dump the man who makes her happy just to come home to me every night - the guy who does'nt make her happy, or b) she will divorce me in a heartbeat to go be with the man who makes her little toesies curl... and throw our family life into total disarray.

 

Bob, if the situation between you and your wife is as you describe, then I'd say your family is already in disarray. Divorce may sound nasty, but I think in the long run you, your wife, AND your children will be happier.

 

Making my wife dump her OM and me letting go of my OW won't do a damn thing towards making our marriage any better. It would only serve to increase the isolation and loneliness we both feel. Isn't it healthier for both of us to have romantic love elsewhere rather than being bottled up with no healthy outlet for that expression of feelings we obviously don't have for each other now, and never did?

 

Yes, it is healthier for both of you to have romantic love. Just don't do it in your current marriage. Think of what your children are learning about marriage. Seriously, think about the problems they may have later in life if you don't take some action.

 

BTW, I mentioned earlier that I am, or was, in a similar situation as you. One thing my counselor told me I was doing by staying in a state of indecision was not only hurting my wife, but also hurting the OW. That bothered me because I cared about her. I didn't want to hurt either my wife or the OW, but I was hurting both, and I realized it was because of my selfishness. That's one of the reasons I came to this forum, to try to see things from the OW's point of view. Knowing that I was hurting her helped me move forward in my situation. Hope this helps you figure things out.

[jj33]

 

BTW, I mentioned earlier that I am, or was, in a similar situation as you. One thing my counselor told me I was doing by staying in a state of indecision was not only hurting my wife, but also hurting the OW. That bothered me because I cared about her. I didn't want to hurt either my wife or the OW, but I was hurting both, and I realized it was because of my selfishness. That's one of the reasons I came to this forum, to try to see things from the OW's point of view. Knowing that I was hurting her helped me move forward in my situation. Hope this helps you figure things out.

 

Robert did you really not realize that your situation would hurt the OW? In your case it was just cyber I believe, but do married men really not realize that their behavior can hurt the OW as well?

 

The enormity of the pain is universal but for those situations like OWoman and Lizzie60 who only want an A and that is rare. How does the MM not realize that?

[Bob54]

Just to clarify...

 

My marriage, as it stands now, is not turbulent or hostile. My wife and I get along well, we rarely argue (and NEVER in front of the kids), we don't speak harsh or mean words to one another, we don't resent each other, we truly enjoy each other's company, just as we always have. We are still very close friends, like we've always been, and we can openly discuss any subject (including infidelity) without getting emotional or angry. That is the plus side. Our children only see a Mom and Dad who are like brother and sister, although they rarely see us express any affection for each other physically because we don't do that.

 

It's also critical to point out that our children NEVER are exposed to my wife's affairs - she doesn't bring her bf to the house, he's never met our kids and probably never will. She sees him very discreetly once or twice a week, but it was an agreement between us long ago when she started seeing other people that our kids would never, ever, EVER know of it.

 

As far as the kids know, Mom and Dad are happily married. And I suppose by all appearances, we are. We don't make each others' lives miserable, it is just more of a friendship than a marriage and always has been. So if the kids are missing out on anything, they ARE missing having two parents who feel and express romantic love for one another. That's something we just can't fake, and therefore, we've never tried to.

 

Just wanted to correct any misperceptions about that.

[Cheesecake]

Robert did you really not realize that your situation would hurt the OW? In your case it was just cyber I believe, but do married men really not realize that their behavior can hurt the OW as well?

 

The enormity of the pain is universal but for those situations like OWoman and Lizzie60 who only want an A and that is rare. How does the MM not realize that?

 

I'm going to venture a guess on this one as my xMM is in the same type of marriage as Bob 54 (and is also middle aged- 49) where both of them still live in the same house in different rooms and are both had/have outside relationships. It can be summed up in one word: Denial.

 

What is denial?

 

<UL>

<SPAN class=Messmargins style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.15pt">Being unwilling to face problems on either a conscious or subconscious level.

[Cheesecake]

What is denial?

 

• Being unwilling to face problems on either a conscious or subconscious level.
  
• Acting as if there are no problems to face.
  
• A defensive response; protection from pain, hurt, or suffering
  
• A mask to hide feelings or emotions behind.
  
• A way to avoid conflict, disagreements, or disapproval from others.
  
• A way to avoid facing the negative consequences of reality.
  
• A way of retaining our sanity when experiencing unbearable pain.
  
• A way to repress the truth of our loss, a way to continue to function in a ``normally.''
  
• A pattern of life for individuals who are compulsively driven to ``look good.''
  
• A way to avoid the risk of change as a result of problems or loss.
  

What are the negative consequences of unresolved denial?

Unresolved denial can result in:

 

• Delusional thinking, leading to a feeling that everything is OK, even when it is not.
  
• Greater conflict between the deniers and the non-deniers.
  
• Fantasy or magical thinking, allowing distorted thinking to become a habit.
  
• Poor problem-solving and decision-making abilities for the denier.
  
• The denier totally avoiding or withdrawing from everyone who knows of the loss or problem.
  
• The denier becoming a social recluse.
  
• Others avoiding the denier to avoid upsetting him with their concern, questions, or reassurance.
  
• Frustration for those who want to help the denier.
  
• A maladaptive pattern of coping with the loss or problem for the denier.
  
• Everyone involved in the life of the denier joining the denial; the problem is not confronted honestly by those who can do something about it.
  
• Resentment by the denier of those who are confronting him about the problems or loss.
  
• Prolonging the time before the denier must confront the pain, hurt, and suffering involved in the loss or problem.
  
• The denier projecting the problem or the results of the loss onto others.
  
• The denier's use of rationalization to explain away the problem or loss.
  
• Exacerbation of the very problems being denied.
  

Bob, actually you're situation is a little different than my xMM. They both had/have outside relationships, live in different parts of the house, barely speak unless necessary and are very cold to each other. Are you saying that you and wife have an open marriage? Are you honest with each other? Do you have communication? And I'm sorry, you may have mentioned this, but does she know about this OW?

 

I'm venturing to bet that perhaps many MM deny the fact that they are indeed hurting the OW - even if the OW is telling you straight to your face that that is in fact what you're doing. Because make no mistake Bob, you will bring this OW a world of hurt if you pursue her, she caves and you stay in your marriage. Please, please, please realize this. That is why she is pushing you away. If you truly care about her, just leave her alone so she can be happy with an available man or contemplate leaving your marriage.

[Cheesecake]

And make no mistake Bob. I'm not judging you - you and your wife can life however you want. If you're both happy with the arrangement and you don't think your children are being affected negatively, that's wonderful.

 

I just want to point out how painful this situation is to the OW/OM because, as your OW has indicated, she would like a 100% whole relationship, not a fragment of one. Please respect her wishes, try to control yourself, and leave her alone so she can find true happiness. It could never be with you if you remain married. Stop being in denial and please just realize that you will HURT her, badly if you continue this pursuit

[jj33]

Bob thats great that your marriage isnt miserable and it makes your choice harder from your point of view.

 

However I still stand by my post above. You still have nothing to offer a woman who wants to be more than a bit on the side as and when it suits your marital and other obilgations.

 

its not a morals issue, its a selfishness issue. Do you want to hurt someone by bringing her into something that is not in her interests. Yes she is an adult and can make her own decisions but if you have no plans to leave, then it will likely end in tears.

 

Find someone who wants to play by your rules. That is not this OW.

[Lookingforward]

Our children only see a Mom and Dad who are like brother and sister, although they rarely see us express any affection for each other physically because we don't do that.

 

As far as the kids know, Mom and Dad are happily married. And I suppose by all appearances, we are. We don't make each others' lives miserable, it is just more of a friendship than a marriage and always has been. So if the kids are missing out on anything, they ARE missing having two parents who feel and express romantic love for one another. That's something we just can't fake, and therefore, we've never tried to.

 

and this is what you are teaching your kids a marriage is........so sad that you think this is a perfect role model for them to emulate....just don't be surprised when they do just that.

 

As far as your sitiuation with the "would be if you could be" OW...keep your selfishness in your so called M where it belongs and leave her the hell alone already.

[RobertLS]

Robert did you really not realize that your situation would hurt the OW? In your case it was just cyber I believe, but do married men really not realize that their behavior can hurt the OW as well?

 

The enormity of the pain is universal but for those situations like OWoman and Lizzie60 who only want an A and that is rare. How does the MM not realize that?

 

I can't speak for other MM, but in my case, I'm sorry to say that I did not realize that I may be hurting the OW until my counselor mentioned it and I started reading this forum. I guess before that, I held to a stereotype that OW were seductresses, trying to steal men away from their wives. I have completely changed that viewpoint, and I can see that in most cases, they are caught up in emotions too and can have very painful experiences, especially if they are deceived by their MM. In my case, I wasn't looking to start up a relationship outside my marriage, but it happened. It was a very subtle thing, and I had no clue how strong the emotions could get. I should never have let it happen, and I hope I'm smarter now.

[jj33]

Thank you for your honesty Robert. Its much appreciated. Its what I suspected.

 

Its interesting how many men think that even when they are involved with the woman.

 

I wonder if it isnt a coping mechanism. It would seem to assuage some of the guilt if the man can think that the woman is a siren seducing him and he is therefore not as responsible for his role in the relationship.

 

In fact I think the percentage of OW who start out in a predatory stance is very low. Over time some may want the man to leave because they have fallen in love with him, but I dont think very many start off in that predatory stance.

[Bob54]

Cheesecake is right - my wife and I are both in a form of denial, but we use it as a coping mechanism to help us deal with what's missing from our marriage. Yes, it is an open marriage, by mutual consent, she knows about this OW and I know about the men she sees. We've always wanted each other to be happy, even if that means finding happiness with someone else. Which indicates that we do love each other, just not in a romantic way.

 

I tend to agree with the posters here who say that it would be selfish and unfair of me to pursue this OW since she is clearly not interested in having an affair with a married man. Although I would leave my marriage for her if I thought we really had a chance. That much I HAVE decided.

 

But asking her to wait while I untangle myself isn't fair to her, either. She is already dating a single man and there's no reason for me to try and interfere with that unless she agrees she'd be willing to wait for me. And I don't know if I could ask her to do that. That I'm still TRYING to decide.

 

So while I'm in this period of limbo, denial, and indecision, I am avoiding all contact with the OW. Haven't responded to that very sweet, confessional text she sent earlier this week, and I feel bad about that, but am still trying to figure out the best way to respond. Don't want to speak until I know what the hell I'm going to say. So thanks for the advice on that so far, and I'm still interested if anyone has ideas on how to handle this.

 

I know the OW and I must have a serious conversation soon - the only question is, will I be saying, "I love you, please wait for me," or "goodbye."

[jj33]

Why not try being honest. That you are confused that you dont want to lead her on or ask her to wait for you in any way. That you dont want to hold her back as you dont know what you are going to do with your M and you respect the fact that she does not want to be the OW.

 

And that if you ever do decide to leave your marriage you hope you can contact her then and if she is single perhaps you will have a fresh start? But that in the meantime you feel you owe her the courtesy of allowing her to get on with her life because at this stage you are not ready to leave and you dont want to hurt her.

[Bob54]

I wonder if it isnt a coping mechanism. It would seem to assuage some of the guilt if the man can think that the woman is a siren seducing him and he is therefore not as responsible for his role in the relationship.

 

In fact I think the percentage of OW who start out in a predatory stance is very low. Over time some may want the man to leave because they have fallen in love with him, but I dont think very many start off in that predatory stance.

 

Good point, JJ. In my case, the OW definitately was not predatory. Although I must admit that I tried to tell myself that in the earliest stages of our knowing each other. The first time we kissed, she actually had to kiss me because I WANTED her to be the one who made the first move. I was passive in the kiss at first (She must have thought I was a dead fish!) because again, I so wanted to be able to blame HER, not myself.

 

This is unhealthy and stupid and I soon got over it, but nonetheless, I think a lot of married cheaters try to shift the blame away from themselves and try to believe that the OW is a shameless vixen, although I think 8 times out of 10, that's not the case.

 

Ultimately, no one can make you cheat. It's a choice YOU make, and you've got to own that choice. I don't blame the OW because she had feelings for me, and clearly I wanted her to act on those feelings, encouraged her by being the first to flirt, to ask her out, to get her alone with me...so really, she is not to blame. She was only RESPONDING to my advances. I was the party who started the pursuit of her and will never blame her for this, only myself.

[jj33]

I didnt read your post closely enough.

 

No Bob. You cant do that. You cant ask someone to wait for you when you have NO idea whether the relationship with OW will work out on a real basis. Youve only known her 6 months, you never even slept together. You hardly had an affair. It was nipped in the bud because she didnt want to get more involved with a married man.

 

You cant ask her to be your get out of jail free card and promise you happily ever after WHEN you get untangled. It is still very very unfair.

 

You have to leave your marriage for you. You have to take responsibility for your decision. otherwise where will you be in 2 years time if the relationship doesnt work out? Blaming OW that you left for her and now....

[jj33]

Bob the man I was involved with is a carbon copy of your situation. Trying to believe that I had seduced him (as if) and then later admitting of course I had not. Its all about emotional avoidance.

 

Its time to start taking responsibility for your feelings and for what you want the rest of your life to look like. You can amble along as you are or you can take a risk and get out there on your own. Neither one is better or worse. Staying where you are is the safer choice. But asking OW to wait for you is not the ideal situation. It could take a long time to unravel and your feelings could change in the meantime. Its still not fair to her. It would be one thing if you moved out and separated and started dating OW. But to ask her to wait? Could be a very long time that she is waiting.

[jj33]

Bob the man I was involved with has been going back and forth like you are for over a year. Its been over a year since we stopped seeing each other and every few months he tries to start up the affair again. His children are grown but he feels he cant leave or doesnt want to for reasons similar to those you posted.

 

It rips my heart out each time. And each time I wonder if he is still so stuck on me, why doesnt he think about doing something.

 

Just as you want to know, its almost as if he wants me to ask him to leave his W and I wont. I dont want him to leave for me. I want him to leave for him if he is unhappy. I am not his W. I dont share their history or extended family relationships or any of the other things he will leave behind if he leaves. Not to mention the fact that he will leave a very very comfortable life for one that is far less comfortable and unlike any he has ever known in terms of lifestyle.

 

If he came to me and said he wanted to leave and he wanted us to have a proper chance at having a relationship that would be one thing. But we were together for over a year and have known each other for several years. And we have been through a lot together. Difficult things that test how you make decisions, loyalty and how you look after one another. So we have some history.

 

But you and OW have the honeymoon period but no real history. I think it would be harder for her to wait.

[Bob54]

Frannie is so right on with this observation:

 

She is plainly saying to you that it's not too late, if you act now. She doesn't want support with her new boyfriend, she doesn't want to be friends (can't because of her feelings): she wants YOU. But she is very smart, and has made it clear she wants you on condition that you're not married. Otherwise it's game over.

 

Now, you want (or think you need) assurances from her that if you leave your wife, she will be there. Even that she 'wait' for you while you get your act together. Hence you're wondering what to do... go and declare love and ask for her reassurances..? NO. Because asking for her either to wait or to assure you that she'll be there if you divorce is as I said above, putting unfair pressure on her. It's up to YOU to make the decision on your divorce, she doesn't want to be a cause of that, nor does she want to be waiting in the wings. She wants you to be a man and do what's necessary and then come to her.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't reply and tell her how you feel! But asking for reassurance, etc. is imho the wrong way of doing it. And asking her to wait in any capacity makes her some kind of Other Woman, and I can assure you that she will probably take that as something of an insult, and unworthy of you.

 

That text, out of the blue after you'd given her a really hopeless, half-hearted 'goodbye' of a text that made you sound like someone to whom life happens instead of a man who is in control of his own life... well, it shows she cares immensely for you and wants/needs you to act.

 

Thank you, Frannie. You just clarified things for me in ways you'll probably never know. You're right- I've lived the past 15-20 years of my life as the passive party, taking things as they come, letting life happen to me.

 

That's no way to live. For the first time in years, I feel like taking the wheel and making things happen, instead of always being the passenger letting someone else drive my car down the road of life.

 

I'm determined to drive my own car from now on - that is the only positive thing that has come out of this challenge so far. It seems the only question now is where I'm going next, how long it will take to get there, and who is going to be by my side on that journey, or if I'll be going it alone.

[KismetGirl]

Frannie is so right on with this observation:

 

 

 

Thank you, Frannie. You just clarified things for me in ways you'll probably never know. You're right- I've lived the past 15-20 years of my life as the passive party, taking things as they come, letting life happen to me.

 

That's no way to live. For the first time in years, I feel like taking the wheel and making things happen, instead of always being the passenger letting someone else drive my car down the road of life.

 

I'm determined to drive my own car from now on - that is the only positive thing that has come out of this challenge so far. It seems the only question now is where I'm going next, how long it will take to get there, and who is going to be by my side on that journey, or if I'll be going it alone.

 

This doesn't sound like you've made any decision to me at all. Just saying you've made a decision to be decisive sounds like you're trying to make yourself better about not actually making any bloody decision at all.

 

Stop talking about making decisions and make one for gods sake. Your marriage is a sham. Religion has nothing to do with it. Contrary to popular belief , most OW's that end up in these relationships don't want to be the OW but they just really fall for the MM and before you know it, you've spent years in a dead end situation and are miserable. Trust me, I know, I am an OW. My MM won't free me, and I can't seem to free myself. So Im more miserable than Ive ever been in my entire life. And I guarantee you that any woman kind enough for you to care about, is NOT going to be happy being an OW no matter what lies she tells you. I tell my MM all the time that Im ok in this situation because I so fear losing him that I just don't say how bad I really feel.

 

If that's what you want to do to a human being, after reading everything you've read here, you are a horrid person. It's a different story when you are so ingrained IN the A that it's hard to leave, but you haven't really had an A yet. You just met a woman you really like. And she's been far smarter than I was to not let anything happen.

 

There are only two options here if you want to be a kind human being, and that is either stay in your loveless marriage (which is not a good option but one that appears to work for the kids and W...for now). Or get a freaking divorce and let another woman have you like she deserves, not some half-assed release of emotional bibble for an hour or two every week, so that she can lay there on her bed feeling vulnerable and forlorn as she watches the man she just made love to have to leave to go home to his effing wife.

 

That's all.

[jj33]

Bob Congratulations. I read your post much differently than Kismet does and it sounds to me like you have made great strides. I hope for your sake that I am right.

 

What I read your post to mean is that you realize you cant have it both ways and rather than asking how should I respond to the text, you are now going to think seriously about your options should you stay or should you go.

 

When you first came to the forum your view was very different. First it was I cant divorce. Then it was maybe I will think about it if I have a guarantee on the other side.

 

Now you realize that you need to drive your own course.

 

Congratulations. It is not a simple road but it is simpler than living with deception and an empty heart.

[KismetGirl]

Bob Congratulations. I read your post much differently than Kismet does and it sounds to me like you have made great strides. I hope for your sake that I am right.

 

What I read your post to mean is that you realize you cant have it both ways and rather than asking how should I respond to the text, you are now going to think seriously about your options should you stay or should you go.

 

When you first came to the forum your view was very different. First it was I cant divorce. Then it was maybe I will think about it if I have a guarantee on the other side.

 

Now you realize that you need to drive your own course.

 

Congratulations. It is not a simple road but it is simpler than living with deception and an empty heart.

 

No, I didnt totally dismiss everything he said, its just that....he's known this whole time he has a decision to make, and Im glad he knows he HAS to make one, it just seems that I see or hear this from people alot. That they KNOW they HAVE to do something and they KNOW they can't keep going on in this waffling way, ......but then they don't actually do anything. They just keep saying "I know I have to take control and make a decision" over and over, and never actually make the decision.

 

I hope that Bob isn't one of those people, and saying youa dmit you have to make a decision is a step, of sorts, but its not an excuse to extend that decision-making time just because you know you ahve to make one.

 

I say this about myself. I am waffling in my own situation and im an idiot for doing so, I should just take control and end my own misery with a "i cant see you anymore" and I do know it is easier said than done. So, good luck to you Bob, I hope you make the right decision, sooner than later :-)

[OWoman]

As far as the kids know, Mom and Dad are happily married.

 

Even if that is the case - and kids are not stupid; my mom & dad would also have claimed that although us kids would have said something very different - that's a tragic admission. If the poor kids have had their view of M so damaged that they can't tell a good M from a hollow shell, what hope do they have of ever having successful Ms themselves?