Empathy for BS?

[Mino]

Read chapter 3 of "The Five Love Languages", and look at the references cited there.

 

There's a great discussion about the "in love" state of a relationship, and how it is often prolonged or exacerbated when that "in love" state is the result of an affair.

 

You're all right...that "addiction" is due to the "in love" state of the relationship. However, that stage of the relationship is often much more intense than in a 'normal' one because of the affair, the emotions and stresses that are created BECAUSE the "in love" phase was initiated by an affair.

 

So the "in love" feelings generated in the beginning of any love relationship are powerful and addictive. BUT...they are often more intense and appear to last longer in affairees...and therefore the ADDICTION is much greater then too.

Owl, maybe just maybe, the love is also more nutured/ not taken for granted because of the situation, where as in a marriage, people do start to neglect the others needs becasue of daily chores...Thats why my belief is in a good Marriage, where people set time for one another, for example a few date night a week, comunicate regularly, appriciate the other and actually show it, you know, take time out of the daily grind for each other, a affair would not happen. In an affair, or new relationship, people do that.. There fore the " chemical is longer floating around" but to call it an addiction, thats absurd!! I have been in R with my mm for 4 years.... I would not call it an addiction...

[Owl]

whatever you need to believe to make you feel better......

 

I'm not sure I'm the one who has to believe something to feel better here...

 

My marriage is just wonderful now that things have recovered. Thank you tho.

 

Mino...I would agree that the infatuation is definitely more nurtured during an affair than the marriage relationship is at that time. That makes complete sense, and supports my viewpoint. That's not unusual during the "in love" phase.

 

But if you don't buy the "addiction" part...try nursing someone through the withdrawl phase of a failed affair. I've seen lots of people with broken hearts due to a failed relationship...and I've seen lots of people going 'cold turkey' to end a drug/alchohol addiction. Let me tell you...the symptoms are FAR, FAR more like those of a drug addiction than they are a broken heart. I've seen it firsthand.

 

I may not be able to convince you that this is indeed an addiction...and that's no big deal to me one way or another in the long run. We may simply have to agree to disagree.

[taylor]

My therapist was in an affair with a married man for 4 years back when she was in her early 20's. He eventually broke it off and stayed with his wife. She married someone else.

 

18 years later the MM's wife died and he looked the OW (my therapist)back up. She was also widowed. They got married 6 weeks later and were married for 12 years until he died. She said he was the love of her life.

 

Now that's what I call an addiction!

[Owl]

Taylor, as a FWW...what's your take on the addiction vs "love relationship" debate here?

 

You've gone through the loss of the affair partner, the end of the affair.

 

Did that feel like you were fighting an addiction every day when you had to fight to keep from calling him, or did it feel more like the 'broken heart' at the loss of a relationship?

[Terminator]

Can anyone explain to me why it is "true love" if it is in a societally sanctioned union (ie. marriage or single folks) yet an "addiction" if one or both of tha parties is married to another?

 

I smell a faint whiff of hypocrisy.

 

[Owl]

Can anyone explain to me why it is "true love" if it is in a societally sanctioned union (ie. marriage or single folks) yet an "addiction" if one or both of tha parties is married to another?

 

I smell a faint whiff of hypocrisy.

 

 

Yeah...I'm smelling something alright. I don't think its hypocrisy, however.

 

Donna spelled it out well.

 

The dynamics of an affair are DIFFERENT than the dynamics of any other relationship. Even LDR ones, although there are some similarities there, in the 'stolen moments', etc...

 

And as I've said...if you've ever tried to deal with someone in the "withdrawls" at the end of the affair relationship, you'd have a better picture. It doesn't look like a broken heart...

[Terminator]

It's not whether it's "socially sanctioned" or not. It's if it's real. Like 24/7. Not just little moments here and there where all you do is feed each other food and have sex. Puhleez! Let's try it where you live together all the time, clean house, pay bills, etc. THAT is the difference.

 

So are you saying you can ONLY "love" someone if you spend your life with them on a daily basis?

[Terminator]

To be honest, I don't believe ANY other person can look at someone else and say "that's not love you're feeling, it's not "real", it's just an addiction".

 

Every person knows what they themselves feel and it's the height of arrogance and hubris to assume you KNOW whether what someone else feels is "real" or not.

 

Just my take on it.

[Owl]

In a "snatch time as you can" affair, you fall in love with the PERCEPTION you have of the other person.

 

You don't have time to see them as the entire person...the good and the bad.

 

I had this discussion with my wife's OM.

 

He THOUGHT he loved her. But he didn't KNOW her. He'd seen what she'd shown him of herself. But he never dealt with her temper. Never disagreed with her over bills, or movie choices. Never nursed her through a sickness, went out to buy pads for her, was in the bathroom when she dropped a bomb...

 

Granted...you don't get as much of that in the "in love" stage of a 'normal' relationship...but even then, you get far more of it than you do when you're forced to hide the relationship. When you're not able to admit the relationship to anyone else. When you're squeezing in moments between the FULL LIFE the other person is living AROUND your affair.

 

Does this apply to ALL affairs? Of course not. There are some situations where the two affair partners get more time together than the married couple. Are they the majority, or the "norm" for affair scenarios? Nope.

[Owl]

To be honest, I don't believe ANY other person can look at someone else and say "that's not love you're feeling, it's not "real", it's just an addiction".

 

Every person knows what they themselves feel and it's the height of arrogance and hubris to assume you KNOW whether what someone else feels is "real" or not.

 

Just my take on it.

 

Fair enough.

 

My take on it is that I've seen enough to be able to distinguish the difference. And I've seen enough to know that those involved in it typically AREN'T capable (at the time) of doing so.

 

Call it arrogance or hubris. I consider the other side to be intentional ignorance. Its all good.

[Terminator]

I can see the point of telling someone else what they feel. However, they only THINK they love "the person." Trouble is, they don't really KNOW the person - the WHOLE person. As Owl so succinctly pointed out.

 

You see what you did there? You are STILL presuming to KNOW what they "think", that they only THINK they love the person LOL

 

While you, however, KNOW that they only THINK they love the person

[Owl]

You see what you did there? You are STILL presuming to KNOW what they "think", that they only THINK they know the person LOL

 

While you, however, KNOW that they only THINK they love the person

 

This is like teaching a pig to sing - think I'll give it a rest now

 

To follow YOUR analogy...how do you know that pigs don't already sing?

 

To each other, they may have the most beautiful and melodic voices in the world.

 

Of course, OUR PERCEPTION...limited as it is by our ability to understand them...is that its just a bunch of grunts and oinks. We think they can't sing.

 

[Mino]

It's not whether it's "socially sanctioned" or not. It's if it's real. Like 24/7. Not just little moments here and there where all you do is feed each other food and have sex. Puhleez! Let's try it where you live together all the time, clean house, pay bills, etc. THAT is the difference.

Lol, Feed each other food and have sex all day? I wish:lmao: No, we may not pay bills together... no need, I make my own 6 figures. Clean house, cook... we do that together. Plus we do go out and enjoy ourselves;) oh yeah cant forget the feed each other and have sex... and THAT IS REALITY my friend

[Mino]

In a "snatch time as you can" affair, you fall in love with the PERCEPTION you have of the other person.

 

You don't have time to see them as the entire person...the good and the bad.

 

I had this discussion with my wife's OM.

 

He THOUGHT he loved her. But he didn't KNOW her. He'd seen what she'd shown him of herself. But he never dealt with her temper. Never disagreed with her over bills, or movie choices. Never nursed her through a sickness, went out to buy pads for her, was in the bathroom when she dropped a bomb...

 

Granted...you don't get as much of that in the "in love" stage of a 'normal' relationship...but even then, you get far more of it than you do when you're forced to hide the relationship. When you're not able to admit the relationship to anyone else. When you're squeezing in moments between the FULL LIFE the other person is living AROUND your affair.

 

Does this apply to ALL affairs? Of course not. There are some situations where the two affair partners get more time together than the married couple. Are they the majority, or the "norm" for affair scenarios? Nope.

your right on that Owl... You dont see all to a person if your not living with them.. I am seeing a side of my mm thats not always pleasing, for instance he snores, can get cranky/moody when tired. But that does not change my feeling for him... Just learning more about him.That is with any "dating r... Thats why I always say live with someone first BEFORE you decide to get married to them

[Mino]

I can see the point of telling someone else what they feel. However, they only THINK they love "the person." Trouble is, they don't really KNOW the person - the WHOLE person. As Owl so succinctly pointed out.

I have to disagree... After 4 years, i think I know mine pretty well.... So maybe you want to define a "typical Affair" for us....Thanks

[Mino]

Interesting... :lmao:

yes isnt it... He is Human... But guess what.., its still "love" and not an addiction... with all his snoresand mood swings...

[Mino]

...and let me just correct you on one thing, Mino, if you're going to insist on trying to quote me. I NEVER said "sex all day." MOST - puhlEEZ note I said MOST - affair partners are NEVER together anywhere NEAR what one could classify as "all day."

OOPS sorry, my bad.... We do have a full time job, so we only have half a day for that:laugh: ( in between all the cleaning and cooking, ya know?

[NewSunrise]

Been gone awhile. Looks like not much changed on this thread and back to the addiction factor; real vs. not real love.

 

Strong points by Owl and donna.

 

Adding my two cents, the lovey dovey rush effects of the newness of love is obviously the honeymoon period. Next, the "real" stuff starts to come out of their perfect shells. That's the crappy mundane but you gotta do it stuff because you love your spouse, marriage including the running nose kids and barking dog. All of which adds to the wholeness of your very existence and the relationship. Every M comes with challenges. Overcoming those challenges are the rewards. And the rewards? Real love.

 

Affair has its own rewards. Lots of rewards. Sex, physical, more sex, emotional support, no screaming kids, no laundry, no meals planning, no finacial budgeting, no "honey do" list to check off, etc.

 

Some affairers sacrifice and compromise community assets, college fund money, family outing, or dinner at home, including reputation and careers just to get their addiction fed. The only challenge is keeping the A in secrecy.

 

Challenge for OPs? A gamble that their "one shot" at happiness could be this MP who "might" actually leave their BS for them. So they hang on as long as they can or willing to until they've either:

1) had enough of their MP lying

2) MP finally left their BS

3) BS kicked their behind because they got tired of their WS' crap

 

Challenge for MPs? Not get caught. Pretend to be the "perfect" spouse, family person or community member, and decide how to appropriate community assets, and time between family and spouse with OP and still not get caught. Essentially, living a double life.

 

Real love is attained without the intent of destroying another to get it. Intent of an affair is to destroy.

 

So if the desire and goal is to find real love, be loved or to love, how can it be REAL love IF the process of obtaining love is under pretense, deceit and at the expense of someone else's misery?

[OWoman]

I can see the point of telling someone else what they feel. However, they only THINK they love "the person." Trouble is, they don't really KNOW the person - the WHOLE person. As Owl so succinctly pointed out.

 

Living with my MM has been a wonderful voyage of discovery for me. As was every day of the A, before we lived together, or when we lived together for several weeks at a time. I believe that if you're really into a R, you're always constantly learning about your partner, new things, changes, and they're constantly learning about you. I believe that when people think they really knows someone, that's when the danger sets in - the taking for granted, the assumptions and presumptions, the half-listening and finishing their sentences for them. I believe that is dangerous in a R that is to grow and change as the partners grow and change - whether it be an A, a M, or any other kind of R.

 

Affair has its own rewards. Lots of rewards. Sex, physical, more sex, emotional support, no screaming kids, no laundry, no meals planning, no finacial budgeting, no "honey do" list to check off, etc.

 

Some As, admittedly - I've had some of those, and wished more were like that - but not all As are. My current A involved as much of the "day to day" as any other R (or M) but with all the lashings of sex that characterise WANTING to be together and not merely HAVING to be together.

 

Real love is attained without the intent of destroying another to get it. Intent of an affair is to destroy.

 

So if the desire and goal is to find real love, be loved or to love, how can it be REAL love IF the process of obtaining love is under pretense, deceit and at the expense of someone else's misery?

 

:lmao: Well I guess my MM's M must have been an A, then, and this must be the "real Love" according to that definition... :lmao:

[taylor]

Taylor, as a FWW...what's your take on the addiction vs "love relationship" debate here?

.

 

I think all relationships are addictive by nature in the "in love" stage. It's the "I can't get enough of you stage."

 

I think what makes affairs APPEAR MORE addictive than normal relationships is that the "in love" stage is more pronounced in two ways:

 

INTENSITY - because affair partners don't get an opportunity to get to the point where they DO get enough of the other person. They don't reach the saturation point where they are fully satisfied.

 

TIME - the "in love" stage for affair partners is prolonged because the relationship doesn't have an opportunity to progress or develop beyond the initial infatuation stage like normal relationships do.

 

But in the end, I do believe all lovers, whether they are in an affair or not, experience REAL feelings of being "in love" with their partners in the beginning of the relationship. It's no more REAL for the "normal" partners than it is for the "affair" partners. And they are both addictive by nature.

 

I think it's hard to do much comparison between the two types of relationships beyond that because they follow different paths. Affairees stay in the "in love" stage. Normal relationships don't. Their love has an opportunity to change, grow, and deepen with time and experience.

 

Nonetheless, I believe feelings of love are experienced by all.

 

I think it is wrong to assume people "in love" aren't experiencing "real" love. Is it the same as the love between 2 people married 30 years? No. But I wouldn't say the love between 2 people married 5 years is the same as the love between 2 people married 30 years, either.

 

How many people get married while "in love" and before they REALLY get to know that person. You don't see anyone running down the aisle saying "Wait, Don't get married. It's not real love!" People get married with the expectation their 'in love' feelings will grow and deepen. They don't wait until they get to that point, though, before they declare their love is in fact real and then decide to tie the knot.

 

Alot of normal relationships don't hit the "disillusionment" period until after the marriage vows are said. And some may not get a dose of reality until years later, saying, "I didn't see his true colors until....I never thought he would ever do that...."

 

That's when normal couples look at each other and say, "I still love you in spite of what I know about you and in spite of what you do."

 

But it can also be argued that affair partners do the same thing. They still love each other even though.....

 

It's a tough question...at what point does love become real. If a couple decides to divorce after 35 years, can you say what they had for 35 years wasn't real? What about the couple who splits after 3 years? What about the affair partners who go their separate ways after 5 years?

[taylor]

Taylor

You've gone through the loss of the affair partner, the end of the affair.

 

Did that feel like you were fighting an addiction every day when you had to fight to keep from calling him, or did it feel more like the 'broken heart' at the loss of a relationship?

 

Owl, I honestly felt both - like I was fighting an addiction and picking up the pieces of a broken heart.

 

THE ADDICTION:

I was obsessed with watching the clock, checking the cell phone, pacing the floor until I heard from him again. I contacted him several times even though my head was screaming "Don't do it!" Like I couldn't help myself.

 

I felt physically sick. Like someone punched me in the stomach. Nauseated. A never-ending headache. Shortness of breath.

 

Anxiety. Alot of pacing and restlessness. Insomnia. Some days I wanted to pick up a baseball bat and knock all the windows out of the house. Crazy. Like I was losing my mind. The doctor put me on anti-anxiety medication for 6 weeks to relieve the anxiety.

 

Depression - I lay curled in a ball on the couch for a week, practically immobilized. I did not want to leave the house. I did not want to see people. I did not want to eat. I lost 17 pounds. Again, I was on medication for 3 months. Even after that, the depression came in waves periodically.

 

I never felt such intense emotions like this in my entire life, even after normal break-ups.

 

I remember writing in my journal during this time:

I feel panicky, anxious, desperate, paralyzed, hopeless. I feel like my only source of happiness in life was taken away from me.

 

I am sure many drug addicts feel the same way during withdrawal.

 

 

HEART BROKEN - I felt deep, genuine feelings of sorrow. My heart was very heavy. It hurt to even breath. My whole body felt numb. I grieved the loss.

 

I let this man become important to me. I allowed myself to care for him and about him. I invested a tremendous amount of time, energy and emotion in him that had nothing to do with sex. Our relationship never turned physical and ended before we had to do much sneaking around. Ours was an office affair. He tugged on my heartstrings from day 1. I had alot of empathy for him and the struggles he was enduring. I came to admire him for the man that he was and how he lived his life, despite its every day challenges. Sexual desires didn't come into play until 6 to 8 months later.

 

And like many who had EA's will attest to, it was the emotional bond/connection that I missed the most and that connection was most definately heartfelt.

 

This "hearbroken" feeling is a feeling I have felt several times with "normal" breakups I have experienced. No different in any way.

[taylor]

I would just like to add, before I leave this thread, that it has been 7 months since the end of my EA. I have been NC since April 15, thanks to the good people of LS here.

 

The addiction phase is over. No more compulsive thoughts or actions. Some minor depression that comes in waves and is "curable" with a little exercise or by reaching out to others (not being self-absorbed).

 

I am still grieving the loss of my friendship with this man but with a lesser degree of intensity. Kind of waffling between resignation and acceptance. No more physical symptoms, though. And I gained the weight back (darn). But now I can look back and remember him fondly as a part of my past. There is no more yearning.

 

Life goes on. There is light at the end of the tunnel. And NC was the ticket. Thanks LS.

 

(Sorry for the thread H/J.)

[Owl]

Taylor, thank you very much for your honest responses.

 

They spell out a lot.

[Al_Bundy]

I would just like to add, before I leave this thread, that it has been 7 months since the end of my EA. I have been NC since April 15, thanks to the good people of LS here.

 

The addiction phase is over. No more compulsive thoughts or actions. Some minor depression that comes in waves and is "curable" with a little exercise or by reaching out to others (not being self-absorbed).

 

I am still grieving the loss of my friendship with this man but with a lesser degree of intensity. Kind of waffling between resignation and acceptance. No more physical symptoms, though. And I gained the weight back (darn). But now I can look back and remember him fondly as a part of my past. There is no more yearning.

 

 

Have you told your husband this and what do you think he would think about your fond memories of the other man?

[frannie]

LOL...well...since the vast majority of affairs are based on a very part time relationship that typically has far fewer stressors on it than a typical marriage on it....you're right...the majority of the time, it ISN'T real.

 

Far fewer stressors..? There speaks a man who's never experienced the extreme stress and misery of an affair! (yes, I know, you never would, etc.). I think the stresses of an affair and the stresses of long-term relationships/marriage are simply different stresses.

 

To respond to the OP: My feelings are that it would be somewhat hypocritical to engage in a behaviour while saying that you felt empathy/sympathy or any other kind of 'positive' (?) emotion towards the person/people you're hurting in the process. This goes for the OP and especially the WS, who let's face it, is doing most of the lying into the face of the person they're betraying on a daily basis. Of what value is the 'sympathy' of the OP? It's laughable in a way, an insult in a way, to my mind.

 

That does not mean that as an OP you feel nothing or just don't care about the BS. That is far from the truth. But the fact is, as others have stated, we are humans and very often what we do does hurt other people. This is life. And yes, its horrible at times. Please, OP, don't think that the OW/OM feels nothing and thinks its just fine and dandy to be doing what they're doing. Oftentimes they're as trapped and hurt by the situation as the BS.

 

This post is not an attempt to justify or excuse anything. Just for the record.