Empathy for BS?

[DealingWDrama]

First of all, I have not read all of this thread...but I have to say as a wife - you make what you make of the situation. If a wife can stand there and say she was the best wife she could possibly be and was still cheated on...then he has to do some soul searching! Affairs are symptoms of bigger problems...there is a reason why the spouse stepped outside of their marriage...personally, I think marriage is no longer seen as something to be treasured by individuals anymore...it's sad.

[noforgiveness]

Aren't you with a man who cheated on you and lied to you?

 

And slept with your best friend? Oh no it was an EA right?

 

Right....

 

:laugh:and that's what you want GEL the cast off of that? He lied to you from the very beginning. You didn't have 20 years of a good marriage first invested. You had lies from the instant you met and this is who you choose to spend the rest of your life with?

 

It sounds like his divorce is going easy. She is probably so happy to be rid of his lies and can't wait to watch you experience your ever after.

[GreenEyedLady]

:laugh:and that's what you want GEL the cast off of that? He lied to you from the very beginning. You didn't have 20 years of a good marriage first invested. You had lies from the instant you met and this is who you choose to spend the rest of your life with?

 

It sounds like his divorce is going easy. She is probably so happy to be rid of his lies and can't wait to watch you experience your ever after.

 

Ahh, NF! Happy Friday! Thanks for your well wishes and blessings!

 

People actually can divorce and not hate each other for it. Usually that means it wasn't working for anyone. Why should two people who aren't happy remain that way? It's so refreshing that you see that...

 

Don't hate on us because it's working out for us. Sometimes meant to be is meant to be.

 

GEL

[LostGirl811]

This post sums up what's really wrong with your perception about the impact of your affair on innocent parties not privy to your indiscrestions. Say, instead of some forgetable salesman or faceless corporation's car you wrecked, you totalled a vintage sportscar that your father lovingly and painstakingly restored. Could you be as cavalier about the consequences of taking his car and roaring off haphazardly down the road under these circumstances? The fact that you aren't perceiving or empathizing with the depth of pain and despair emoted by the BS and her family allows you the luxury of doing as you please without remorse or self recrimination which speaks loudly about the darker side of your character.

 

You also posted earlier that when you met MM you were already involved with someone who, on paper, seemed like the ideal candidate for a long and lasting relationship. You also stated that, though you loved him, you were not "in love" with him and that with your MM you have the freedom of being yourself without the constraints of the "hum drum" that comes with living day to day in a committed relationship even though you recognize faults within his character as well.

 

The way I see it your biggest problem is not the affair (problematic as it is) but the type of person that you are and the life cirmcustances you find yourself in. Your workload, schoolload, professional aspirations, overly empathetic tendency to get involved with your patients, and need for companionship gives me the impression of a type-A personality compulsively driven to extremes to please and perform with a "Mother Theresa" complex who's using an illicit affair to balance the scales as a means for an outlet due to all the frustration that comes from always giving too much. I believe this is why you rejected your former paramour in favor of an affair with your MM which isn't really working for you else why would you be posting on LS? By your own admission your therapy sessions typically condense into a rant to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah away the time yet still leaves you empty with no resolution in sight because you fail to focus on the real issues driving your dysfunction.

 

Your biggest fear is saying NO and knowing when to LET GO! This goes for MM and everyone else around you clawing and scratching for your time and attention. Until you achieve balance in your life so that you have ample time for you your situation is destined to stagnate or, worse yet, lead you down to darker paths in life as you search for an outlet for your stress. All it takes is one hit of the pipe and someone like you is HOOKED for, to quote Nietzsche, "those who chase monsters must take care not to become one for when one stares into the abyss the abyss stares right back" (paraphrasing)!

 

Yeah....Im not really trying to justify what is going with me and MM. He's at fault, I'm at fault, and in some smaller way, his W has a role in all this, not in that she "made" him cheat or anything, but you'd think she'd want to work on the marriage when she got a hint that something was amiss, rather than just being distant and then ignoring that it ever occured and going on with life like nothing happened?

 

I dont know. I suppose at this place in my life, perhaps Im not ready to end things with MM just yet. Yes, my school, work, life is massively busy right now, and to be honest, Im not sure I have the time or energy to commit to a full time relationship anyway. I spend so much time taking care of other people, I spend very little giving any pleasure to myself, and I suppose this one situation gives me some momentary happiness. Im not sure it's worth the torment, but that doesn't make it easier to end. My ex boyfriend, the one I broke up with shortly after I met MM, he really was a great guy and would have been a "comfortable" life with him, but I dont want to settle for comfort. MM is very comfortable with his W, and maybe that's ok for some people, but obviously it isn't enough for many. If MM wasn't missing something, he wouldn't keep coming to me for over 3 years, despite all the guilt he feels. he tells me all the time that he's almost hoping I find someone and dump him, because he doesn't know how to end it with me because he loves to be with me and thinks Im this amazing woman, and at the same time he feels horrid everytime he goes home after he's spent intimate time with me, and I can understand that. I get some needs met in this situation, and so does he, I imagine. We were good friends before it became physical, and it's hard to let go of someone you care about. Honestly, after a year of NC with him, I missed him as a person. It wsnt the physical part I was after or whatnot when I called him up after a year. I even suggested we only meet in public places, have lunch, etc, so we wouldnt be tempted to touch each other, leading to the physical side of things again. But that was apparently not possible. When two people have bene involved the way we were, I guess it's nearly impossible to just hold back.

 

I am a good person, that isn't something I have to prove to anyone, let alone any bitter shmucks on here that seem to have alot of fun insulting people and adding nothing productive to the conversation. In my job it is difficult to dissattach yourself from human beings that are suffering most of the time. I know as time goes I get slightly more "dulled" to it, but Im still young I suppose and have that desire to just save everyone, even though I know it can't be done. But it is mentally tiring to do all the things Im trying to do, to take care of everyone and everything, and then at the end of the day, Im a human being. I want that bit of companionship, intimacy, etc and I'm not the type to sleep around, and I never seem to like the guys I've gone out on dates with recently, so I get that bit of satiation from MM.

 

That's just how it is right now. I'm not going to ask him to leave his wife or kids. I'm not going to ask him to change his life for me. I'm not going to tell his wife, I have no desire to rub any of this in her face. She seems to be very happy from what I see and hear from her friends, becuse she honestly doesn't think he is cheating right now for a long time. She's the one that's going to end up with him, I know that with some certainty. I make it hard for myself, thinking about how much I love him, but I guess for now, on some weird level, it is working. It's dysfunctional and causes me pain, but I just can't end it right now. It gives me something to look forward to inbetween work and school and family obligations and financial stressors. He calls me on days we don't see each other just to see how Im doing and to encourage me to keep going, because he believes in me, he thinks im an amazing, intelligent, gorgeous woman, and hell, when you're running on 3 hours of sleep a night and are so tired you can barely get out of bed , let alone put effort into lookin nice that day, and going through the massively stressful process of trying to become a bloody physician, it's nice to hear those things.

 

C'est la vie. There will be mean people, and supportive people, intelligent people, and idiots giving advice. 99% of you have been of the supportive, intelligent sort :-) so, thank you for that. For that other 1%, well, like I said, there's always a bit of garbage lyin around to walk around ;-) cheers all

[NoIDidn't]

I am a good person, that isn't something I have to prove to anyone, let alone any bitter shmucks on here that seem to have alot of fun insulting people and adding nothing productive to the conversation. In my job it is difficult to dissattach yourself from human beings that are suffering most of the time.

 

C'est la vie. There will be mean people, and supportive people, intelligent people, and idiots giving advice. 99% of you have been of the supportive, intelligent sort :-) so, thank you for that. For that other 1%, well, like I said, there's always a bit of garbage lyin around to walk around ;-) cheers all

 

I hope you aren't counselling any betrayed spouses.

 

I thought the old pelican was just trying to help you see your situation more clearly. Long of the short, he was saying (IMO) that you need to get some equilibrium in your life and you might not hang on to your R with the MM so much.

 

He wasn't mean at all. Certainly didn't deserve the "bitter shmucks", "idiots giving advice" or the "garbage" statements from you.

[NewSunrise]

I think the bottom line to this thread is if you were to calibrate the thought process of the majority of OPs who post about their As, it is all about meeting their own needs as much as MPs meeting theirs.

 

The subject of this thread is the "empathy" factor.

 

Is there empathy from either the OP or the MP towards the BS and children? The answer is no.

 

If either MP or OP have any genuine empathy for those they betray or about to hurt, the A would not happen in the first place. Rather, what they feel is an "intermittent" guilt that allows them to feel "conveniently" remorseful. Yet they do nothing. Is this still empathy? Yes and No. Yes, it's empathy for the moment. In their perspective, it's sufficient to make them feel "humanely" like everyone else. And no, because the ACT of the A is still purposely designed to intentionally betray and hurt other people,. The empathy factor is killed as easily as the A will kill a M.

 

If any empathy were felt by any WS, the "humanely" thing to do would be to D the BS IF all resources to mend the M have been exhausted. Surprisingly, many BS are not even aware that their M were in trouble until discovery of the A.

 

If any empathy were felt by any OPs, the "humanely" thing to do would have been to "respectfully" not engaged with a MP in the first place.

 

To feel empathy for another human being is to be able to "picture" oneself in the shoes of those you are about to betray or hurt.

 

But, as we have all read, affairers (OPs and MPs) play their game by their own rules. And when you play a dirty game like an A, it takes away or destroy all the empathy that humans have been gifted with.

[White Flower]

question: what the hell is the significance of that little jumping bunny???

So philosophical now days Stamp...

[LostGirl811]

I hope you aren't counselling any betrayed spouses.

 

I thought the old pelican was just trying to help you see your situation more clearly. Long of the short, he was saying (IMO) that you need to get some equilibrium in your life and you might not hang on to your R with the MM so much.

 

He wasn't mean at all. Certainly didn't deserve the "bitter shmucks", "idiots giving advice" or the "garbage" statements from you.

 

I counsel all sorts of people. Advice is easier to give than to take.

 

And, I wasn't calling Pelican a bitter shmuck. That was wholly directed towards another person or two on here that have been really, really mean, there is no confusing what kind of "advice" they give, it's just all insults. I did say that most people have been rather nice so far, didn't I? :-)

[LostGirl811]

PS- I think we've been using the wrong word around here, by the way. "empathy" is when you understand what someone is going through, because you have gone through the same thing.

 

"Sympathy" is more appropriate here, in that it means basically trying to understand what a person is going through, though you have not specicially gone through it yourself.

 

Most OM/OW on here would fall into the latter, though I suppose a few of them have also been a BS before and could have "empahty"

 

And yes, as someone mentioned before very astutely, you can have sympathy all you want, but at the end of the day it probably isnt enough reason to end the A. I do have sympathy for my MM's W, I think I'd probably feel quite bad if she found out, and I think most human beings that aren't total sociopatHs will have some amount of sympathy for anothre being's suffering no matter what kind it is. But seriously, at the end of the day, most people are concerned with themselves and those closest to them. For example, all those commercials for starving kids all over the world,and cancer charity's that need money, etc etc. I can't imagine you don't find many that don't feel BAD for them, but they aren't all running to send them all their money anyway, because it is more convenient for themto keep most of their money. Do they NEED all the money they make? No, not in many cases, but they'd rather go buy a new coat than send that 200 bucks to some kid in another country, right? That doesn't make them selfish or inhuman....it makes them very human.

 

Yes, there ARE plenty of MM;s and MW's and OW's and OM's that ARE sociopathic, don't care that thy are hurting people, etc etc, but just because someone is in an A, doesn't mean they are bad people or have no sympathy.

[noforgiveness]

I counsel all sorts of people. Advice is easier to give than to take.

 

And, I wasn't calling Pelican a bitter shmuck. That was wholly directed towards another person or two on here that have been really, really mean, there is no confusing what kind of "advice" they give, it's just all insults. I did say that most people have been rather nice so far, didn't I? :-)

 

Would you please point out the insults that have been hurled at you. Sometimes the truth hurts. That does not mean it is insults to you.

 

You know what your actions will do to that family and you do not care about your part in it. Your few minutes of happiness a day is worth more to you than the destruction of a family with innocent children. You continue to justify it by she will end up with him. What you are missing is that she will not want him after you are discovered and the lies can't be told anymore. You managed to pull one over on her the first time. It won't happen the second time. Your life will be hell for a while after she, her family, her friends and her children find out what you have been doing with HER husband.

[NewSunrise]

PS- I think we've been using the wrong word around here, by the way. "empathy" is when you understand what someone is going through, because you have gone through the same thing.

 

"Sympathy" is more appropriate here, in that it means basically trying to understand what a person is going through, though you have not specicially gone through it yourself.

 

Most OM/OW on here would fall into the latter, though I suppose a few of them have also been a BS before and could have "empahty"

 

And yes, as someone mentioned before very astutely, you can have sympathy all you want, but at the end of the day it probably isnt enough reason to end the A. I do have sympathy for my MM's W, I think I'd probably feel quite bad if she found out, and I think most human beings that aren't total sociopatHs will have some amount of sympathy for anothre being's suffering no matter what kind it is. But seriously, at the end of the day, most people are concerned with themselves and those closest to them. For example, all those commercials for starving kids all over the world,and cancer charity's that need money, etc etc. I can't imagine you don't find many that don't feel BAD for them, but they aren't all running to send them all their money anyway, because it is more convenient for themto keep most of their money. Do they NEED all the money they make? No, not in many cases, but they'd rather go buy a new coat than send that 200 bucks to some kid in another country, right? That doesn't make them selfish or inhuman....it makes them very human.

 

Yes, there ARE plenty of MM;s and MW's and OW's and OM's that ARE sociopathic, don't care that thy are hurting people, etc etc, but just because someone is in an A, doesn't mean they are bad people or have no sympathy.

The ACT of the A by OP and MP IS what creates the lack of empathy. The ACT itself has a specific purpose. It is intended to hurt and cause pain to specific individuals, the BS and children.

 

In your example as in not choosing to donate or not, this ACT of not doing does not purposely hurt or cause direct pain to anyone in specific. The ACT of the A does. The ACT of doing nothing to resolve A by ending it, multiplies or compounds the hurt and pain over time against those impacted by such act.

 

It is only WHEN the A ends by either OP or MP are they able conceptualize and understand the true definition of empathy. It is at this point they are able to actually feel similar pain of betrayal themselves because the euphoria they have received from the A diminished.

 

Empathy IS afterall, synonymous with pity and sympathy.

[jj33]

The ACT of the A by OP and MP IS what creates the lack of empathy. The ACT itself has a specific purpose. It is intended to hurt and cause pain to specific individuals, the BS and children.

 

In your example as in not choosing to donate or not, this ACT of not doing does not purposely hurt or cause direct pain to anyone in specific. The ACT of the A does. The ACT of doing nothing to resolve A by ending it, multiplies or compounds the hurt and pain over time against those impacted by such act.

 

It is only WHEN the A ends by either OP or MP are they able conceptualize and understand the true definition of empathy. It is at this point they are able to actually feel similar pain of betrayal themselves because the euphoria they have received from the A diminished.

 

Empathy IS afterall, synonymous with pity and sympathy.

 

This is where the conflict lies. Generally the act itself is not "intended" to cause pain to the BS. The BS is not considered. It may in many perhaps the majority of cases be a consequence and it may be something that a BS feels a OW/OM should know WILL cause pain.

 

That being said I am astounded at the number of threads where people seem to enjoy the pain suffered by the BS whether or not they admit it, and actively compete with the BS and disdain them.

[Reggie]

I guess my impression is that, for the most part, OP's don't really concern themselves with the pain the affair brings to the BS and children. Maybe empathy was the wrong word, I'm not sure. But, bottom line is that knowing the affair will hurt others, needlessly(there is the divorce option readily available) they persist.

One of the things that both the WS and the OP fail to consider is the element of theft. By that i mean that most BS's would probably have similar options to meet someone else. My Xwife is quite attractive, but i'm not chopped liver in that department either. Out there in the world, I got approached numerous times and i declined as i was abiding by the contract I entered into. I was attracted, as most partners in a long term marriage will be with someone fresh. But, I did not want to hurt my family and i don't think icould have lived with myself.

But, bottom line, my WS got to have lots of fun, pleasure and adventure that I , myself, had available to me. She got two years of fresh, exciting sex with a new partner and I was working and taking care of kids.

I don't think I would have any resentment had she told me she was unhappy and unwilling to work on the marriage and divorced me. Then, I might have had a jump start on entering a new relatioship. She hit the ground running while I was reeling from the discovery of her affairs.

this is why I see such an element of narcissism in affairs. There is complete disregard for the value of the Bs's life. And, the childrens' lives are adversely affected more than they would have been in an amicable divorce. It's tough to co-parent with the underlying resentment present. thsi all could have been done so much more cleanly with no one feeling disrespected and cheated. It would have hurt, no doubt, but I doubt anger would have been much of a factor.

[NewSunrise]

The BS is not considered.

Precisely. They are never considered into the equation.

[NewSunrise]

I guess my impression is that, for the most part, OP's don't really concern themselves with the pain the affair brings to the BS and children. Maybe empathy was the wrong word, I'm not sure. But, bottom line is that knowing the affair will hurt others, needlessly(there is the divorce option readily available) they persist.

One of the things that both the WS and the OP fail to consider is the element of theft. By that i mean that most BS's would probably have similar options to meet someone else. My Xwife is quite attractive, but i'm not chopped liver in that department either. Out there in the world, I got approached numerous times and i declined as i was abiding by the contract I entered into. I was attracted, as most partners in a long term marriage will be with someone fresh. But, I did not want to hurt my family and i don't think icould have lived with myself.

But, bottom line, my WS got to have lots of fun, pleasure and adventure that I , myself, had available to me. She got two years of fresh, exciting sex with a new partner and I was working and taking care of kids.

I don't think I would have any resentment had she told me she was unhappy and unwilling to work on the marriage and divorced me. Then, I might have had a jump start on entering a new relatioship. She hit the ground running while I was reeling from the discovery of her affairs.

this is why I see such an element of narcissism in affairs. There is complete disregard for the value of the Bs's life. And, the childrens' lives are adversely affected more than they would have been in an amicable divorce. It's tough to co-parent with the underlying resentment present. thsi all could have been done so much more cleanly with no one feeling disrespected and cheated. It would have hurt, no doubt, but I doubt anger would have been much of a factor.

Eloquently said.

[OWoman]

Empathy IS afterall, synonymous with pity and sympathy.

 

Sympathy involves feeling sorry FOR someone, and pity, likewise, extends down towards those less fortunate than oneself.

 

Empathy, on the other hand, extends from one equal to another - one thinks oneself into the place of the other, without any patronising or feeling sorry FOR them. One feels sorry WITH them.

 

At least, that is the standard counselling definition. It may be understood differently in different contexts or cultures.

 

Which is why, as I posted earlier, I could feel pity or sympathy for MM's BW, but never empathy.

[GPFan]

I admit, I have not read all the threads here. But, the ones that I have read seem to be devoid of the OM/OW showing any empathy for their contribution in hurting the unsuspecting betrayed spouse.

I also see many OP's characterizing the BS or the WS's marriage as involving either an abusive or extremely deficient BS. Yet, the source of information for this characterization is , most times, second hand, coming from the WS, a pesron that has shown a great capacity for dishonesty.

I'm struck bu the naivety(sp?) of OP's that simply accept the information from the Ws as true. I am also struck by the focus merely on the OP's discomfort and turmoil without remorse for having hurt the BS and kids if there are any.

Why is that?

My first thought upon reading your question is if there were any capacity for empathy or sympathy, there wouldn't have been an affair period. There are multitudes of opportunities for affairs presented to nearly everyone, yet not all take the married person up on their offer.

 

Perhaps it isn't naivety as much as a person simply deciding to do what they wish to do.

[NewSunrise]

Which is why, as I posted earlier, I could feel pity or sympathy for MM's BW, but never empathy.[/quote]

EXACTLY!! You just confirmed what this thread is about.

[NewSunrise]

As there seems to be somewhat of a varied interpretation depending which side of the fence you stand on, a more definitive way of looking empathy vs. sympathy, as one online dictionary defines each:

 

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

Not to be confused with Pity, Sympathy, or Compassion.

Empathy is the capacity to recognize or understand another's state of mind or emotion. It is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or to in some way experience the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself.

 

Sympathy is a social affinity in which one person stands with another person, closely understanding his or her feelings. The word derives from the Greek συμπάθεια (sympatheia)[1], from συν (syn) "together" + πάθος (pathos), in this case "suffering" (from πάσχω - pascho, "to be affected by, to suffer"). It also can mean being affected by feelings or emotions. Thus the essence of sympathy is that one has a strong concern for the other person.

 

And as GFan posted, A is a choice.

[jj33]

Why is this even a question? Are you trying to suggest that if people thought about it they wouldnt do it? People make all sorts of decisions for all different reasons. Sure if there were no OPs there could be no affairs. But that is not realistic.

 

Affairs are as old as time. Everyone lives by their own code. You may not agree with it but thats the way it is.

 

In my situation there was no BS there were no children under the age of 25. Every situation is different.

[Reggie]

Huh? No BS. Where's the affair?

And, sorry if I used the wrong word, empathy, sympathy, contrition, whatever. The concept is pretty clear. Was there no consideration for those adversely affected?

As far as affairs having been around a long time, there is no debate. So have many things, incest, pedophilia, murder, theft etc. Do we accept them becuase of the length of time they've been around? Do we accept that this is just that particular offenders moral code?

[jj33]

Shes not a betrayed spouse - they do their own thing to get their personal needs met but stay together because they feel its better than divorcing. Wouldnt be my choice but its theirs.

 

Im not even going to respond to the moralizing. I know youve been hurt but IMO you cant paint everyone with the same brush.

[Reggie]

Sounds like it's out in the open with mutual consent. Not at all like an affair.

My hurt is largely dissipated and I'm pretty happy about being out from an abusive marriage. I can see no jusification, regardless of how long it's been around, to decieving someone you vowed to love and honor.

[jj33]

It was very much like an affair in that noone could know other people wouldnt understand and it would have severely hurt my reputation if they knew. The fact that they conduct their life as they do is not publicized. Certain people in their social circle know vaguely but they are the picture perfect couple and family in public. I met friends of theirs (by accident) and when his name came up they gushed about what a perfect couple they are... His children and extended family couldnt know everything had to occur with the upmost of discretion.

 

It was not an affair in that the spouse wasnt being betrayed but had all the other downsides when you are OW which is why I was so hard on that Bob person. It was comforting at the beginning because I felt like I could go in with a clean conscience much as I couldnt understand it. But it was awful.

 

I ended up feeling like a member of staff. Not because of his actions but because it became clear to me that I was just one of many people who helped their lives function more smoothly. But it wasnt ever going to meet my needs.

 

And I am glad you are happier. It must have been awful.

[Reggie]

Thanks, jj. It was the toughest thing I've been through. In spite of the complications surrounding your relationship and how unsatisfying it must have been for you, you are right. Your were not complicit in hurting his spouse. She was okay with it.

Good that you got out and started to think about what you want long term. Sort of a cost/benefit analysis.