Capital Punishment

[EnigmaXOXO]

I have not even touched on what I really wanted to explore which was about the contrasting differences in approach to advocating the death penalty and looking at how Christ acted.

 

Shoot. This is an easy one for simple minds like mine.

 

Christ was given the death penalty because he was considered a heretic for not following the mainstream religious beliefs and philosophies of his own time.

 

According to the Old Testament ... It was God (although he supposedly knew in advance that his son would be sacrificed ) who seemed to change his mind about his own plans once Christ’s fate was set into motion. As he was about to exact revenge on Jesus’s crucifiers (thunder, lightening, black clouds and the whole nasty bit), it was Christ who said:

 

“Forgive them father, for they do not know what they have done.”

 

At least that’s the way I remember the story from childhood.

 

So you see ... It was Christ (the victim) who saw fit to forgive his murderers. Not his father, his mother, his family or the jury of his own peers. As a matter of fact, it was those who once adored him who later turned against him.

 

The moral of the story: No good deed goes unpunished ... but the bad ones often do!

[redfathom]

Enigma, I love the Avi!! So it's said that the victims are the ones to do the forgiving. That is a good question. I mean if you could see your future and someone was going to rape or murder you. Would you forgive them?

 

Anyone here seen The Crucible??? I love this play/movies, I just watched it again last week. They touch on forgivness a lot.

[EnigmaXOXO]

I mean if you could see your future and someone was going to rape or murder you. Would you forgive them

 

Well, first I’d try like h*ll to avoid them. If I couldn’t, my next move would be to take them out first (in self defense of course ). I’d be no sacrificial lamb to some nutter’s blood-sport and would not feel an ounce of regret if I had to take a life in defense of my own or another innocent victim’s. Although I might absolutely step in front of a bullet and sacrifice my own life to save the life of someone I love. And for the Christians out there, perhaps that’s the message of ultimate “love” that Jesus leaves behind.

 

However, I am not a deity nor under any delusion that a Higher Power has appointed me his/her spokesperson, interpreter or role model. Being only human, I could never detached from my own primordial emotions, so “NO” I could not find it in my heart to ever forgive an act as violent and malicious as that. For myself or anyone else. Nor would I ever willingly throw my own innocent child to feed the hungry wolves hoping they might digest some greater lesson from it.

 

Come to think of it, I’d be real pissed at my Father if he set me up, watched the whole thing go down and didn’t lift a lightening bolt to step in and save me. Especially if I hadn’t done anything wrong or ever harmed a single person.

 

Jesus must have been a pretty good guy. If it were me, I’d have been up there hollering at my Father to cut me down start the toga barbecue. And you can bet MY Daddy would have done it!

[Eve]

According to the Old Testament ... It was God (although he supposedly knew in advance that his son would be sacrificed who seemed to change his mind about his own plans once Christ’s fate was set into motion. As he was about to exact revenge on Jesus’s crucifiers (thunder, lightening, black clouds and the whole nasty bit), it was Christ who said:

 

“Forgive them father, for they do not know what they have done.”

 

 

Thats an interesting interpretation - never heard that one before. I am pinpointing the part where you said that God was about to extract revenge whilst Christ was on the cross. Of course I cannot prove anything - because whatever I say is based on my personal experience of faith but I believe that Christ was closing the chasm between what I term a 'mortal wound' which can be experienced from hurts and sin and Gods Law which still stands - the underlying theme of which are the ten commandments. I am going into such detail because I cannot meet the act of Christs sacrifice with willfullly killing someone who (ok, I cannot defend any serial killer or kiddy fiddler but stay with me) I do consider may have suffered some sort of 'mortal wound' in order to be so ****ed up.

 

I would have thought that such persons would be best served to be detained indefinately and maybe, I dont know, the Army (?) and medical staff run the prison system to ensure that both punishment and rehabilitation remain the focus. I am quite sure that if we had Army standards in our prisons people would not want to go there, but we also need a medical perspective because many prisoners are actually mentally ill or learning disabled. I cant advocate killing someone who is mentaly ill etc.. and this is mainly because of my faith.

 

SO, I dont understand how things have become so twisted in that blood lust can win, when Christ did not advocate such an approach. Simply illogical.

[EnigmaXOXO]

I think each one of us determines for ourselves what we believe to be “justice.” And our definitions of that are subject to change depending on which side of the situation we find ourselves on. The safely distanced observer; the perpetrator who may or may not fear the impending consequences --- or the victim who is at the end of a knife and has a split second to decide whether or not its “okay” to take their assailant's life in order to save their own. When facing that “mortal wound” we all have it within us to justify murder or the taking of a life. In that split second we have already calculated the value of our own life (or life of a loved one) over that of the mentally ill person who has maliciously taken it from us.

 

Personally, I can’t help but trade places with that innocent victim in that moment. To imagine the horror they must have suffered during those final moments of their life. And in that person’s place, I can’t help but want to retaliate in their defense because I can’t “justify” the greater social good or outcome of that. Especially considering that the murderer’s offense was not committed towards “society” as a whole, but rather against that individual victim. And therefore one can’t ever really declare that a murderer has “paid their dept to society” when the only one who has really lost anything is the victim/s.

 

Here’s something you might find an interesting read, Eve. I’d probably fall within the category of those who better relate the philosophy of “Retributive Justice” while your more in line with the “Utilitarianism Justice.” [bottom of article]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

 

As TBF already mentioned, it’s simply a matter of personal belief and/or opinion. Will probably always be.

[Eve]

Here’s something you might find an interesting read, Eve. I’d probably fall within the category of those who better relate the philosophy of “Retributive Justice” while your more in line with the “Utilitarianism Justice.” [bottom of article]

 

Thank you enigma. I am still musing on what I have read so cannot comment at the moment - though I will say that is good to read something which goes beyond, 'kill the bastards'. All this talk about CP and then today I noticed that at my local theatre there is a play about the last days of Ruth Ellis who was the last woman to be hanged in Britain. Definately going to see it later on this month.

 

I agree entirely with your stance of consideration for the victim as the foremost principle. Still, I see prison has being a larger more dangerous version of the ideal playground for the School Bully to reign - whether we kill perpetrators or not. This is what concerns me.. longterm.