Nemo Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 You're this close to being put to death? Mkay? I'm pretty sure that Tony is the only one who can do that. But, hey, I won't push it. There's no need to impale me with your robotic dildo. Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Abortion boils down to the question: 'Is it murder?' Science cannot answer that, however some religions can. Some religions can answer that for themselves according to thier own beliefs! And it's not an answer that justifies anything... it's a point of view. You give me a religion and I can give you an arguement for both sides with any religion you want to make an example of. Politics and religion should never mix...never ever! Do I believe in Capital punishment? Sometimes!- some individual cases make me think that a pedophile, serial killer, serial rapist, should be put to death. it's not a religious standpoint for me- it's a practical one. Does our justice system have a 100% correct conviction rate? NO. Until they do- Capital punishment is an issue I remain on the fence about. Kill a child, rape a child, rape a woman, kill for the sake of pleasure... Do I care if these people suffer and die for their crimes? No, not at all. Religion has no place in LAW or Politics. It's a seperate enitity. People have the freedom to believe what they wish to believe. That's why Democracy is cool. Faith is personal- regardless of whether or not it is organized... As an Atheist- no religious belief governs me. Laws do. Capital punishment comes down to a moral issue, a human issue. You cannot force a set of laws on a society based on religious beliefs some groups may hold. Law must supersede religious beliefs. Link to post Share on other sites
Nemo Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Bring back spankings!!!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7649876.stm Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Bring back spankings!!!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7649876.stm Now you're talking... Link to post Share on other sites
jerbear Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Bring back spankings!!!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7649876.stm Now you're talking... Put it on Pay-Per-View! People talk about fiscal crisis, ethics, cost of incarceration is cheaper than capital punishment. I say Pay-Per-View to find out who out there really supports it and forget "cruel and unusual." My opinion of, cruel and unusual punishment is really a phenomenon of the last 200 years. What did governments and people do before the Industrial Revolution, tar and feathers, public executions, hangings, lethal ingestion, canings, whippings, etc... You know what! When local governments started to put pictures and names of dead beat dads (and moms) on the Internet and newspapers, guess what!. Many paid up just to get their names out of the paper. oh, one last thing, if that doesn't work, send in Mom. She'll get him to comply. Link to post Share on other sites
Explorer Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Science tells us that an egg is not life, and a million sperm is not life. But the union of an egg and a sperm is life. From that point on, a termination is the termination of life. Whatever you call it, science gives us the facts. That is your opinion, not a fact. There's not a worldwide scientific consensus of when life begins. Link to post Share on other sites
Explorer Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Some religions can answer that for themselves according to thier own beliefs! And it's not an answer that justifies anything... it's a point of view. You give me a religion and I can give you an arguement for both sides with any religion you want to make an example of. Politics and religion should never mix...never ever! Do I believe in Capital punishment? Sometimes!- some individual cases make me think that a pedophile, serial killer, serial rapist, should be put to death. it's not a religious standpoint for me- it's a practical one. Does our justice system have a 100% correct conviction rate? NO. Until they do- Capital punishment is an issue I remain on the fence about. Kill a child, rape a child, rape a woman, kill for the sake of pleasure... Do I care if these people suffer and die for their crimes? No, not at all. Religion has no place in LAW or Politics. It's a seperate enitity. People have the freedom to believe what they wish to believe. That's why Democracy is cool. Faith is personal- regardless of whether or not it is organized... As an Atheist- no religious belief governs me. Laws do. Capital punishment comes down to a moral issue, a human issue. You cannot force a set of laws on a society based on religious beliefs some groups may hold. Law must supersede religious beliefs. I'm not saying that the laws shouldn't. If our justice system was flawless, would you believe in capital punishment? Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster_DAR Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 It does not. You're taking the bible out of context. You'll NEVER understand scripture until you read it is as a WHOLE..... Out of context? WT? :laugh::laugh: It could not be any clearer than that. Perhaps it's modern religion skewing the context to fit it's cause. Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster_DAR Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The Bible does not condone “Murder”, it condones “killing”. The literal translation to the Commandment is; “You shall not murder”. I will leave that loophole up to your interpretation. How can you separate the two here? Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version) 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. That is murder my friend, regardless of what spin you want to put on it. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Eve Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. That is murder my friend, regardless of what spin you want to put on it. I would suppose that the taking things out of context thing is about seeing the full picture of how things worked out within the circumstance which the Biblical text was originally quoting. Now, I find the OT difficult to navigate, always have and probably always will. In the instant quoted I would assume that one has to read the whole thing to understand how things panned out for those concerned, at that time. Meaning, read the whole text in which I suppose someone would have been plotting something and then been foiled, just like a good episode of CSI.. Probably not that helpful a post but there you are. I find the OT really difficult to navigate But I have considered whether those (who were going to get a kicking from God) really were ever going to change? At this time of God looking to make a people His own within the OT (for whatever reason) maybe this was the focus? Kill or be killed? It does seem as though everyone was into killing back in the day anyway... Nowadays (represented as 'the last days' in Biblical terms the focus seems to be on preserving innocence - which I can relate to in this throw away culture.. Back to the issue of Capital Punishment. I see no call for such a movement within the NT. I wanted to know if there was ultimately a singular passage or something which the Texas state follows ( I am not sure where else in the US has CP). From what I have read here, it doesnt look as though there is a merger between faith and Judical Law, its just how things are.. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 To play the context card, you have to ask yourself what is an appropriate context for genocide and rape. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
george35 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 How can you separate the two here? Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version) 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. That is murder my friend, regardless of what spin you want to put on it. Cheers! Um… it’s not my spin, only a correction I heard of the translation. For the sake of argument; God did much of his bidding through Moses and God told us not to murder / kill. He never said he wouldn’t. Also; I always wondered why God told Moses he would die after doing this. Now in the grander scheme of things, from another perspective life is trivial compared to the eternal afterlife. I’m not quite sure where I was going with that other than it just crossed my mind. If you read my previous post I am of the belief that life behind bars is worse than death by lethal injection. Of course at the moment the needle is inserted I may have a different opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
redfathom Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Well...not quite. We are all sinners. So your scenario would condem each and every one of us..... When God does come back, everyone will know for sure God isn't/wasn't a, "fairy tale".... and once more, He'll let those who haven't placed their faith in Him make up their minds one last time.....So according to God and the Bible it's more of a sin to not have faith in him then to commit sin? That's like getting a free pass to mayhem, the key's to Chaos and being told, "Don't worry, because when God comes and you commit your faith to him, you will be saved, no matter how big or small your sins." I don't like that. If thats the case, what's the point of being a good person? Link to post Share on other sites
george35 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I find the OT really difficult to navigate But I have considered whether those (who were going to get a kicking from God) really were ever going to change? At this time of God looking to make a people His own within the OT (for whatever reason) maybe this was the focus? Kill or be killed? It does seem as though everyone was into killing back in the day anyway... Nowadays (represented as 'the last days' in Biblical terms the focus seems to be on preserving innocence - which I can relate to in this throw away culture.. Back to the issue of Capital Punishment. I see no call for such a movement within the NT. I wanted to know if there was ultimately a singular passage or something which the Texas state follows ( I am not sure where else in the US has CP). From what I have read here, it doesnt look as though there is a merger between faith and Judical Law, its just how things are.. Try reading the OT like a work of fiction or a great novel once. Sort of a; War and Peace. I found it was much easier to digest and at the end I was able to draw more of the lessons and guidelines to live by from it. Since then I really haven’t been as concerned with it’s historic or literal accuracy or authenticity. It worked for me at least. Not that it matters but it was a Catholic friend who suggested that approach to me. I’m not sure if that’s there take or just his but again; it worked for me. As for not seeing a merger between faith and judicial law; look again, start with the Constitution. I’m not an proponent or an opponent of the idea, I just don’t know how you missed it. Despite this post, I’m really not a particularly religious person. At least I don't think of myself that way Link to post Share on other sites
george35 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 So according to God and the Bible it's more of a sin to not have faith in him then to commit sin? That's like getting a free pass to mayhem, the key's to Chaos and being told, "Don't worry, because when God comes and you commit your faith to him, you will be saved, no matter how big or small your sins." I don't like that. If thats the case, what's the point of being a good person? Your looking for the catch, from what I remember in Sunday school the catch is; God knows what’s in your heart, you can’t fool him. And maybe sinning and hoping VS not sinning and knowing is the difference. Yes, no, maybe? Link to post Share on other sites
redfathom Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 The way I read it was that Faith is more important then repentance? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Eve Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 As for not seeing a merger between faith and judicial law; look again, start with the Constitution. I’m not an proponent or an opponent of the idea, I just don’t know how you missed it. Hand on heart George, I know very little about what the constitution is actually about. You are probably laughing now, but its true. When I think about the Constitution I think about the vision which I have read that George Washington had, the Bill of Rights, the American Flag and swearing allegance to it - in total a sort of rewriting of the ten commandments .. but I dont know what the Constitution actually says. I know that Texas has the death penalty but other states do not have the death penalty. A work colleague of mine said that California now has the three strikes rule.. I dont know if this is true. I wanted to know if there really was a definitive Biblical reason for the death penalty because of Texas being part of the Bible belt of the US. So I am learning. I have not even touched on what I really wanted to explore which was about the contrasting differences in approach to advocating the death penalty and looking at how Christ acted. I took it for a given that there would be some underlying quote from scripture which lay beneath the essence that the death penalty could be accepted but I have ultimately found none. Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 How can you separate the two here? Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version) 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. That is murder my friend, regardless of what spin you want to put on it. Cheers!That was murder......friend..... Integrating Old Testament Law into today's day and age is like using a steam engine manual to repair a modern day car....it won't work.... Crimes punished severely during the days of the Old Testament, (elements of the civil law), were part of God’s special administration of His Kingdom in a theocracy where people were held to strict standards in light of the clarity of the revelation they received. The movement of God’s Kingdom, however, is away from a theocracy toward the dispersion of the Kingdom of God to all nations, in which God’s people act as salt and light (Matt. 5:13–16). Jesus endorsed the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matt. 5:17–20; John 10:35, etc.), but His life and teaching demonstrated that He was bringing into reality a new chapter in the unfolding of God’s Kingdom, not reinstating a theocracy. The Mosaic Law, then—given under unique conditions by God Himself— contained numerous penalties that we may chafe at, but this does not entail either that God did not stipulate them, or that they should be applied in any literal manner today. Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 So according to God and the Bible it's more of a sin to not have faith in him then to commit sin? That's like getting a free pass to mayhem, the key's to Chaos and being told, "Don't worry, because when God comes and you commit your faith to him, you will be saved, no matter how big or small your sins." I don't like that. If thats the case, what's the point of being a good person?Not quite....it's more of a sin to not have faith in him then to commit sin?Sin is sin. There's no level of sin, it's all disgusting to Him. HOWEVER, if you've place your faith in Christ's passion on the cross, your sins are reconciled with God."Don't worry, because when God comes and you commit your faith to him, you will be saved, no matter how big or small your sins."Doesn't work like that....you must place your Faith in Christ, before you face God the Father.....otherwise, you're in sin debt.....those who've done so wouldn't continue living a sinful life, rather, they would be sinners who are becoming like Jesus each and every day. Trust me, we aren't without sin, and we never will be.....we just don't have the desire to continue living as we did without Christ in our lives....what's the point of being a good person?Living by example will draw more people to Christ..... Link to post Share on other sites
george35 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Hand on heart George, I know very little about what the constitution is actually about. You are probably laughing now, but its true. When I think about the Constitution I think about the vision which I have read that George Washington had, the Bill of Rights, the American Flag and swearing allegance to it - in total a sort of rewriting of the ten commandments .. but I dont know what the Constitution actually says. I know that Texas has the death penalty but other states do not have the death penalty. A work colleague of mine said that California now has the three strikes rule.. I dont know if this is true. I wanted to know if there really was a definitive Biblical reason for the death penalty because of Texas being part of the Bible belt of the US. So I am learning. I have not even touched on what I really wanted to explore which was about the contrasting differences in approach to advocating the death penalty and looking at how Christ acted. I took it for a given that there would be some underlying quote from scripture which lay beneath the essence that the death penalty could be accepted but I have ultimately found none. All of the, Bible belt states observe the death penalty;Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas,California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Okalahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee,Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, Wyoming, Also the U.S. Government and the U.S. Military. I’m afraid you will find the Bible particularly the OT riddled with scripture that seemingly supports the death penalty if that is how you side. That is to say; if when God speaks of someone dieing or being put to death is he handing that duty over to man and if you believe that the death he refers to is of the mortal body and not the immortal soul, than have at it. Notyou personally EVE, you know what I mean. I believe the 3 strikes is federal and the individual states don't have much say in it. I'm not sure however. Link to post Share on other sites
redfathom Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Moose, what about those that commit sin in His name? Some people committ horrible crims because of their faith... Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Moose, what about those that commit sin in His name? Some people committ horrible crims because of their faith...Everyone will be judged accordingly for they've done....by God....not me, not you or anyone else....so why should I or anyone else fret over it, let alone allow what other people have done to the faith be a pre-curser to what we believe? Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Moose, what about those that commit sin in His name? Some people committ horrible crims because of their faith... Then this is their decision, not God's. people can twist even the most innocent thing into the most evil, if that's what they have a mind to do.... Many things are done 'in the name of Religion' but three different people looking at the same text, will come up with different interpretations.... and we're not just talking nowadays.... Permit me to give you a seemingly innocent example: In one version of the bible, where Jesus is speaking to one of the robbers crucified alongside him: Truly, truly I say to you this day, you shall be with my Father in Paradise. in another, this is the version: Truly truly I say to you, this day you shall be with my Father in Paradise. You see, where putting the comma makers all the difference.... In one version Christ is telling the robber that eventually, (after purgatory, because this was the Roman Catholic version) the robber will get to Heaven. In the second version, the implication is that he'll be fast-tracked the same afternoon! Interpretation has a lot to answer for....... Link to post Share on other sites
redfathom Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Moose you are kind of contradicting yourself: You wrote: Sin is sin. There's no level of sin, but then you say that everyone will be judged accordingly for what they've done. Followed by HOWEVER, that's a giant BUT...my therapist once said to never use the word however or but, because it negates what you just said. So the way I interpret what you wrote is that God will find your Sins disgusting, BUT if you place your Faith in God your Sins are reconciled...what about repentance? You can't just believe that God will save you, but you also have to show remorse for your crimes. And you will be punished for them... Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 You wrote: Sin is sin. There's no level of sin, but then you say that everyone will be judged accordingly for what they've done. Followed by HOWEVER, that's a giant BUT...my therapist once said to never use the word however or but, because it negates what you just said.First, Sin is Sin....the degree of PUNISHMENT is the big difference.... Secondly, Putting your faith in Christ DOES negate your sins, past, present and future, my use of the word, "however" is used correctly.... Finally,what about repentance? You can't just believe that God will save you, but you also have to show remorse for your crimes. And you will be punished for them...Christ will not enter into your heart unless it is contrite....so you are correct, a contrite heart would be filled with remorse..... by accepting Christ, you are being repentive.....placing those sins upon the Cross... Link to post Share on other sites
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