I wonder if he'll answer me honestly about how often he sleeps with his wife

[Lizzie60]

She isn't going to 'meet anyone' or have her heart open enough to allow another guy in because she's inlove with the MM. She could very well miss the boat by staying with a MM who has no intention of leaving his wife and kids.

 

This is true.. but when you are in love with someone.. you don't have the desire to meet anyone else.. and even if she would.. she will always compare and the MM will always win.. so there is no use unless she is willing to go NC with MM.

[Terminator]

When we first met, years ago, before the A, he mentioned it was something along the lines of every 6 weeks, and that he thought this was just 'what happened' when you got married.

 

It's 5 years later and I have to admit, I wonder how often he sleeps with her now, now that me and him are also sleeping together. Whether its the same, more, or less?

 

Im not sure I even really want to know, but I am definitely ridiculously curious. I keep trying to figure out if I should just ask or not. Or if he'll even answer me honestly. I suppose I could act like I don't care and just sarcastically say Im trying to statistically determine when's the next time he's going to get her pregnant. In which case I think I'd tell him i can't see him anymore. I don't think I could handle hearing "my wife is pregnant" for the third time since the A started. The first two times were enough, though the first time was before we started sleeping together, and the second time she got pregnant was in the 11 months that me and him had NC.

 

He's quite bad at answering questions of anythign even remotely emotional, has a habit of joking or changing the subject.

 

Not sure this is much of a question, maybe Im just thinking out loud?

 

I might see him tomorrow. maybe i'll just come out and ask him after sex. I hear men's thinking is more "woman like" after sex. Or is that a myth? Hmmmm.

 

The most likely scenario is that he'll turn it over in his mind before answering, weighing the probable consequences to continued sex with you of either Yes or No.

 

Does it really make any difference? You still won't know the "truth".

[Lizzie60]

From the description you gave of you and the W, it sounds like he might think of her as good W material, and you as the exciting A material, and so he wants both of you, but for diffrent reasons. For that reason I think he enjoys the physical side with both of you, but its probably very different with both of you. I think its quite logical to presume that they have a regular sex life-with her its probably safe and familiar and kinda makin love with his W who he loves, the M of his children, and a way of showing he loves her, but with you he probably thinks its more naughty and exciting and its more intense and physical...

 

Good point.. most of the time.. IMO they don't have a very active sex life.. but the truth is the MM is OK with it cause he has the sex outside.. and the W is OK with it because she prefers to be in a sexless life.. that's the reality of most marriages. Men and women are not on the same page as far as 'libido' goes...

[angie2443]

From the description you gave of you and the W, it sounds like he might think of her as good W material, and you as the exciting A material, and so he wants both of you, but for diffrent reasons. For that reason I think he enjoys the physical side with both of you, but its probably very different with both of you. I think its quite logical to presume that they have a regular sex life-with her its probably safe and familiar and kinda makin love with his W who he loves, the M of his children, and a way of showing he loves her, but with you he probably thinks its more naughty and exciting and its more intense and physical...

 

A man who cheats on his wife does not love or respect his wife and children. It is simply not possible. You can't respect someone and cheat on them and you can't love someone you do not respect. He is attatched to them. He is used to them. He does not love them.

[Lizzie60]

A man who cheats on his wife does not love or respect his wife and children. It is simply not possible. You can't respect someone and cheat on them and you can't love someone you do not respect. He is attatched to them. He is used to them. He does not love them.

 

Yes it is possible.. men DO separate love and sex.. they really do.

[angie2443]

Yes it is possible.. men DO separate love and sex.. they really do.

 

I'm not talking about the OW's they are with. I'm only talking about the family. You can't lie to someone in that way and still love and respect them. As far as the OW's, they are doing nothing disrespectful to them and so it is possible for the men to love them. The most humane thing for the men to do in these situations, is to leave their families.

[whichwayisup]

The most humane thing for the men to do in these situations, is to leave their families.

 

Or end the affair.

[Mino]

A man who cheats on his wife does not love or respect his wife and children. It is simply not possible. You can't respect someone and cheat on them and you can't love someone you do not respect. He is attatched to them. He is used to them. He does not love them.

I agree to a point...There is no respect, but I do think they love them, maybe not the way a spouse should love their H/w.. But you care about them and dont want to see them hurt..I dont think it has anything to do with the love for their children. That is seperate.That love will never change... its part of them....

[Mino]

I'm not talking about the OW's they are with. I'm only talking about the family. You can't lie to someone in that way and still love and respect them. As far as the OW's, they are doing nothing disrespectful to them and so it is possible for the men to love them. The most humane Sure it makes sense to just leave... in a perfect world, But its not always that simple...

[Mino]

]oops,, dont know what happened here. What I was saying is that is the reason they are not honest with the BS.. They want to protect there feelings, they dont want to hurt them, they do care... no respect...Because if they did respect, they would be honest in a perfect world,,,,, but that means taking responsibity for thier actions... Not always that simple to leave.

[noforgiveness]

Good point.. most of the time.. IMO they don't have a very active sex life.. but the truth is the MM is OK with it cause he has the sex outside.. and the W is OK with it because she prefers to be in a sexless life.. that's the reality of most marriages. Men and women are not on the same page as far as 'libido' goes...

 

What an absolute silly statement to say that most married women want to live a sexless life.

[KismetGirl]

Well you should slightly lower your standard! At the least, don't settle for a guy who is married! I lose immediate interest in pursuing a woman if I discover she has a husband, or boyfriend. Personally for me, I want to uphold some respect and value for these other fellows as I wouldn't want someone to chase after my woman either.

 

Well to be honest, generally I would feel that way as well. When i first met MM there was NOO way I seriosuly thought anything would happen! It just kind of did one night. I was shocked as all hell when he kissed me that night, believe you me. I may have gotten a little drunk and admitted i Thought he was cute, but I NEVER would have made a first move on him, both because he was married and my bloody boss at the time!

 

 

 

Man, I feel like I am falling in love just reading your description! Ok, from the sounds of it then he probably isn't with some other lady. What I am thinking is that he and his wife aren't really doing it too much, but he is one of those types of married men who is scared of his wife and also scared of emotional pain and breaking her heart. This is why he continually tried to work on the marriage, doesn't leave her, etc.

 

Such a nice lady! Wish I lived closer to you, I would make you forget about this guy within about 1 week.

 

LOL, ahem ahem, Mister, are you flirting with me on a public message board? He isn't scared of his wife, but he is scared of emotional pain and hurting her and his family, on that you are correct.

 

Oh well. I might end up moving to the UK next year for a while if my visa comes through, maybe if I do that, being out of the states for a while, would help this whole ending of the affair....ah, only time shall tell I suppose....

 

And thank you , I am a very nice lady! hehe, despite what others may think about my little OW status, it is something I have done, it is not who I am as a person, right?

 

 

more bunnies--> :bunny::bunny::bunny:

[KismetGirl]

I know this is off on a tangent, but I have to agree with Lizzie. It is highly unlikely that this MM (and most MMs) has any other woman. Unless Kismet is way off on her description of what occurred during their relationship, then it is what it is.

 

It IS hard to have one affair let alone more...unless the guy is a rich businessman who rarely spends time at home. Personally for me, it is hard to imagine fitting one affair into my life let alone more. The ones that fit more than one do so because they are on the road as a salesman, etc. and can visit each when they are in that city.

 

Could he cheat on Kismet and his wife? Always possible but not likely. I have seen so many MMs and OM/OWs here that act as if it is cheating to betray their affair partner...even though they are cheating on their married partner.

 

Im not off on my description, trust me. There is no way he could fit in another OW even if he wanted one. He isn't some egotistical sh*t. He's just a normal guy, and Im jsut a normal girl, and we find ourselves here. I know exactly what he does at work, because I used to work with him. It isn't the sort of job where he can come home four hours late and say he was with a client. The only reason we even get as much time as we do is, as I said, I happen to live two blocks away from one of the offices he works at, so on days he is there he tries to stop by to see me, assuming I am not at work or school myself. He also , despite what anyone may think, DOES have alot of guilt about what he does, and I don't think he'd have the mental energy to try to also be lying about yet another woman. Me and him have a history for several years now, and we find it difficult to end things. He hasn't been with anyone but me and his wife in over 7 years, I know this for a fact. There are many things I can only assume, but this I know with no doubt.

 

Kismet, you sound beautiful based on your description, and you fill the needs of your MM. From what you say, I agree. It is unlikely that he would leave his wife for you. You provide the excitement while she provides the stability.

 

Truthfully, I see this ending one day when YOU find a single man or when he is discovered by his wife. If you find a better guy, then his life will be ruined. If he is discovered, then he will run back to his wife...and I pretty much guarantee that she will take him back...especially since he is the sole wage earner.

 

Again, live for today. Today is the fantasy...tomorrow is the reality.

 

Thank you for the kind words, James. :-) Me and MM, we fill certain needs for each other, that is for sure. We have a connection and a chemistry that I can only imagine is quite different from what he has with his W. She is stability and comfort and the mother of his children. I make him feel alive, and loved, and affectionate, and don't just treat him like some husband, or father, or breadwinner, but just like...well.....a man that I really love, that I find sexy and who makes me laugh. Maybe this would be harder to do if we were married and we had kids, but I have to tell you, after seeing all I've seen go wrong in other couples, I try my hardest to avoid those same mistakes when I have my own relationships, and generally, when I am in a relationship, they are very successful. I've never been dumped. I break up with them because if Im not in love with them, I dont think its fair of them to stay with them. I was engaged to someone, and didn't want to end up in a marraige to my best friend....I wanted a best friend that made me feel alive in a way that very few men have made me feel. I think that, while appearing strong and leading on the outside, that on the inside men crave emotional connections and affection just like anyone else. He doesn't get that bit at home. At home he is the worker, the father, the husband, the furniture fixer, the bug killer, the dog walker, the etc, and I guess this happens with alot of couples, but they lose their identities as being simply men and women, who still need a romantic, emotional connection and I think this is often why marriages fall apart. I know that stress, kids, make it hard....but how hard is it at the end of the day, when the kids have gone to bed, to just sit with your spouse for 20 minutes, or hell, 10 freaking minutes, and just enjoy each other's presence? Kiss, hug, have a cup of freaking tea together? Maybe you're not always up for sex (I am , but perhaps Im not the average woman in that regard. Even if I have a headache, I'll enjoy a round, I think it makes me feel better) but there is no excuse to just not be affectionate towards each other at all if you truly are in love with one another.

 

I agree with you 100%. I think at this point the only way this will end is A) if his W finds out again and threatens to break up the family (which i dont think she'd actually do as they have three kids and she doesn't work) or B) I will find someone else of my own. I spoke to my aunt about this situation and was honest with her, and she admitted she'd had an affair of her own once, and she said to me "one day you will find someone single to be with, and you will leave MM, and he will be the one aching inside". I have a feeling she said this from personal experience. She's not having an A anymore, and she's always loved her husband (who also had an A of his own, they had a rough patch.....), but it was obvious when her OM found someone else, even though she had never planned to break up her family for him, she felt an ache with him gone. I feel this will probably happen with me and MM.

 

I suppose until then I have to find a balance with him and just enjoy it for the moment, enjoy each kiss, each touch, each laugh and stroke of the hair. Who knows how many people every meet someone to make them feel this way at all, for even five minutes? I hope I meet someone else who does, but at least now I know the level of love I am capable of having, and I don't think i should have to settle for anything less. I'm an attractive, intelligent, caring young woman, so I've got some time to get my life in order, and hopefully one day it will fall into place.

 

Thanks for the input, James, it's always refreshing to hear from people that are just being unbiased and answering the questions at hand. Cheers.

[whichwayisup]

I hope I meet someone else who does

 

You won't ever find someone else that makes your heart beat fast like your MM does, until you end it with him. You continue to stay, there's not a chance you'll let yourself fall for anyone else.

[KismetGirl]

She isn't going to 'meet anyone' or have her heart open enough to allow another guy in because she's inlove with the MM. She could very well miss the boat by staying with a MM who has no intention of leaving his wife and kids.

 

 

Im not waiting for him to leave her, WWIUp. I am occasionally fanciful and have daydreams about what it would be like if he did, but I never seriously consider that he will.

 

I did open my heart up to others actually, just doesn't happen often, and frankly I don't think it SHOULD happen often. Those people that seem to "fall in love" with every person they date two weeks after they meet don't know what they're doing, it's an insult to the word "love".

 

Truth be told, there were two other men I've dated in the time I knew MM that I liked very much. One I could have seen myself falling in love with at some point. We were together for about a year, and this was mostly during my NC with MM. During this time, while I thought about MM sometimes, I was not tempted to call him or email the way I am now adays that I am single again. I truly liked this other man, and he really liked me back, but he lived in England and I lived in New York and I couldn't promise him I would move to the UK because I didn't know where I'd end up for medical school and etc, and after a year he couldn't handle the uncertainty anymore, which I was crushed about but totally understood. He didn't break up with me, but he was obviously upset about my inability to commit to being in the same country as him, so I let him go. It was hard but I wanted him to find someone closer to him , and if me and him were meant to be then I'd see him again one day. I still keep in touch with him, and he actually is dating someone in London right now so maybe it's for the best.

 

But anyway, my point is, I don't forgo all other men just because I happen to be in love with MM. Call me picky, what have you, but I just rarely meet people that I fall for. I know it will happen again someday, I just don't know when, and until then, I find it near impossible to stay away from MM. The only thing I will admit is that I often do compare men I meet to MM, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. He has many good qualities, and I don't think that's bad to want those same qualities in someone else, is it? Everyone's got a "type" that they like. Mine happens to be tall, light eyed, intelligent, sarcastic, funny, easy going, sporty, boyish, charming, Englishmen ;-) These are just "likes", not a make-or-break list, per say. C'est la vie!

[KismetGirl]

Lizzie, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

You believe them to be great people, and great fathers.

 

I'm sorry...but cheating on their wives and paying women for sex rather negates those possibilities in my book.

 

 

Paying women for sex????? When did this discussion turn to prositution, Owl? MM isn't my sugardaddie for chrissake. Considering Im single and he's supporting a family of five, I actually make more than he does, and when Im a doctor, I'll be making waaaaay more than he does.

 

Just because someone is having an A, doesn't make them a bad person, or bad father. Their love and actions towards their children, is entirely seperate from their love towards their wife. MM is a great dad. He is ALWAYS there for his children. He works two jobs to support them so his wife could be a SAHM like she wanted to be. He works in a field where the pay is ****e, but he came here from the UK just so he could work in a field where he was helping people and caring for sick people that couldn't do it for their own, even though he is absolutely brilliant and could have been some ass**le businessman making millions instead. I've seen him fight to the end to defend the patients we had when him and I worked together who weren't being treated like human beings just because they were retarded or mentally ill. He's home every single night to put his children to bed and help out. He's there every morning to put his daughter on the bus to school. He's home all weekend long with them. Seeing me a couple hours here and there doesn't take away from his being a good father. And he will always break plans with me to go home immediately if one of them is sick or needs him in any other way. I get upset when he does this, but honestly if he was the kind of man who would come fit in a quickie with me instead of going straight home to his feverish baby, i probably wouldn't love him this much, because that would be arsehole behaviour.

 

Im sure his relationship with his W is lacking, so maybe he's not a perfect H, but I also doubt she is a perfect W. Probably because, shocker here, but NO ONE is perfect and even if a person doesn't cheat on their spouse, they can still be a horrid spouse.

 

You can't say someone is a bad person or bad father because all you know about them is that they spend a couple hours here and there with another woman in a manner that you personally deem inappropriate and wrong. This behaviour is not even remotely comparable to a man who beats his wife, or doesn't bother helping with his children, or is a deadbeat bum without a job who doesn't try to care for anyone, or spends all his free time having a pint with his friends at the pub all night instead of being home with his family on the weekends. THOSE are bad people, and bad fathers.

[KismetGirl]

From the description you gave of you and the W, it sounds like he might think of her as good W material, and you as the exciting A material, and so he wants both of you, but for diffrent reasons. For that reason I think he enjoys the physical side with both of you, but its probably very different with both of you. I think its quite logical to presume that they have a regular sex life-with her its probably safe and familiar and kinda makin love with his W who he loves, the M of his children, and a way of showing he loves her, but with you he probably thinks its more naughty and exciting and its more intense and physical...

 

 

Actually, I'd more presume that sex with his W is more mechanical and dull than a matter of making love. Comfortable, yes, but they lack any real sexual or romantic connection. He called it a lack of "spark" between them. I'll never forget him saying that. Before anything happened with me and him. The first night we kissed, we were having a couple of drinks at the bar after a co-worker's night out, and just chatting about relationships, and he seemed frustrted so I just let him vent, and he said "[insert W's name here] is a great woman, she's nice, she's a wonderful mother...there's just no spark between us at all", and he seemed so regretful, like he had lost the only chance he ever had in life to have that spark and now that they were married and had a kid tht this was the end, that was that, and this was what it was going to be.

 

Later that night I had a few beers, looked at him, and blurted out that i thought he was cute. I immediately apologized because, hell, I'd just told my boss I thought he was cute and thought I'd be in mucho trouble on Monday morning! Yeh, well, he smiles in a surprised manner, looks down, looks me in the face, and says "I think there is a mutual attraction here"

 

We stood around like two embarressed idiots for a moment having just admitted we were attracted to each other, and in my still tipsy state, said, "I'd really like to do something, but I'll probably get in trouble if i do, so I guess I won't" In my drunken mind I wanted to kiss him, but I'd never make that first move. He smiled again, and I can remember this whole night almost moment for moment from this point. He looks to the side, as if he's wondering if he should or he shouldn't....and then just grabs me and kisses me, right in the middle of the bar.

 

Without a word we drop our drinks, walkoutside, arms around each other, and stumbe to my car where we proceed to make out like silly , excited teenagers. He'd obviously not kissed another woman like this since he married his W, lookin at me in awe and telling me how soft my lips were. He awkwardly asked me if we should "get a room" or not. I told him i thought he would regret his actions in the morning when he was sober, and didnt want him to regret anything or make our work life awkward, so i said I thought it woudl be best if we didn't sleep together that night. He insisted he wouldnt regret it, but he's a guy and his drunken, sexual decision-making couldnt be trusted :-0 So he tells me he will text me first thing in the morning when he wakes up, to let me know in a sober state of mind what he thinks of this.

 

In the morning I get two text messages, the first one saying "Major regret about last night...." Ok, I think, he regrets it, no surprise. But, the second text says "...my only regret being, how will I ever find another night to spend the whole night with you?"

 

It's naughty and exciting betwen us, but it's also raw and emotional and affectionate. It's the most mind blowing sex I've ever had in my life, and I've had plenty of good nooky in my day. If this was only about sex I've have gotten bored with it long ago and I dont think hed keep risking everything for it. I think it's a bit of both, but hell, at the end of the day, no amount of love, sex or emotion will make him be ready to leave three small children, right?

[KismetGirl]

This is true.. but when you are in love with someone.. you don't have the desire to meet anyone else.. and even if she would.. she will always compare and the MM will always win.. so there is no use unless she is willing to go NC with MM.

 

 

Youre right in that I compare men to MM, but Im not agains thte idea of meeting someone new. I just kinda wish I could meet someone available that made me feel that way. It's not a totally impossible idea.....is it?

[KismetGirl]

Good point.. most of the time.. IMO they don't have a very active sex life.. but the truth is the MM is OK with it cause he has the sex outside.. and the W is OK with it because she prefers to be in a sexless life.. that's the reality of most marriages. Men and women are not on the same page as far as 'libido' goes...

 

Thats true alot on the libido front. Ive already accepted I have a ridiculously high sex drive probably not common to most women. Even in long relationships where I wasn't that attracted to the guy anymore, I was still having sex with them at least 3-4 times a week, even if i was tired or sick or busy. Orgasms are the best drug nature could have provided :-)

 

But saying the W is ok with it is also wrong, I think. Some do turn a blind eye, but even if they are not into sex as much, they still don't want MM's finding it on the side. Not much of a compromise, if you ask me, but that's why people end up cheating. Not to say a woman should be shagging her H every night just because he wants it if she doesn't, but thinking that your H will be happy getting laid once a month or less is stupid and whether he cheats or not, it's going to lead to unhappiness in the M for sure. Whether people like to admit it or not, sex is a very important part of a relationship, and is normally a pretty good indicator in therapy sessions I have with patients as to how healthy their relationship really is. When a woman says "oh, we don't have sex very often but it's ok, we are beyond that, we are still happy" I tend to look at the man as she is saying this and he tends to look down and unhappy, not wanting to disagree but obviously NOT agreeing. Men use sex to express their emotions in many ways. Gracing your partner with sex once a month or less than that is ignoring a basic need that human beings have. There has to be SOME compromise....no?

[KismetGirl]

A man who cheats on his wife does not love or respect his wife and children. It is simply not possible. You can't respect someone and cheat on them and you can't love someone you do not respect. He is attatched to them. He is used to them. He does not love them.

 

 

Oh now that is silly. You can love a woman and care for her and not be in love with her or that attracted to her.

 

And ENTIRELY separate from love for a spouse, is love for your children. That is above and beyond, and entirely separate from love between a man and woman. People get divorced, and end up despising their spouses or ex-spouses, but to say that as a result they also don't love their children is idiotic.

 

He isn't unhappy with his relationship with his children. He is unhappy with his relationship with his wife. They are two separate things entirely.

[KismetGirl]

I'm not talking about the OW's they are with. I'm only talking about the family. You can't lie to someone in that way and still love and respect them. As far as the OW's, they are doing nothing disrespectful to them and so it is possible for the men to love them. The most humane thing for the men to do in these situations, is to leave their families.

 

 

I was about to get into a long shpeel aagain but relaized this is veering off topic again, so I will just say that telling someone to get up and leave their family because they cheated is irresponsible. Affairs are not always black and white, and to tell someone to tear apart a family and go through the long, emotional and expensive process of a divorce as easily as they should change their socks is unfathomable. If anything, ending the affair is easier, but that doesn't fix the initial unhappiness that caused it to begin with.

[jwi71]

Your initial question was whether or not to ask of his sex life with the W.

 

However no answer will ever suffice because you do not trust "your" MM.

(And you shouldn't trust him or his answer - he is a proven and capable liar)

 

So pick whichever number suits you best.

 

Might I ask a question of you?

Are you proud of your relationship with him?

[2sunny]

the thing is - some MM don't even acknowledge what the truth is...

 

my xH and i were having great sex most every day - sometimes 2-3 times a day (even after 20 years of marriage).

 

when i asked him why he would have the need to get it from somewhere else - he couldn't even admit to himself that he got it at home every day. totally denied that we had sex every day. hellloooo - i'm in the mix too, remember?

 

so there you have it... they even lie to themselves about how often and how good it may or may not be. so where does that leave you? you'll never know the truth cause he may not want to admit it to himself.

[jj33]

Kismet you are torturing yourself. They have several children he doesnt talk to you about his marriage etc etc READ THE SIGNS. He is not leaving his wife. How often he sleeps with her is of no consequence.

 

If he says all the time or as often as I can what then? Then you may think oh this is not just for sex he really loves me... Ill just wait a bit longer.

 

If he says hardly ever or I dont fancy her anymore or some such thing then you will tell yourself oh hes only there for hte children if he were single he would be with me......Ill just hang on a bit longer...

 

The end result for you is the same regardless of what his answer is. He isnt leaving - why should he - he has you and he has her. And you arent going to leave the A until you are ready. What he will do then is anybodys guess but based on what you have posted it doesnt sound likely he will leave.

 

Moreover its not really your business. If he wanted you to know after all this time he would have told you. Dont make him into more of a cad then he is, what goes on in his bedroom shouldnt be shared.

[Billie63]

Kismet, he talked about the "no spark" thing five years ago? How do you know they haven't got the spark back?

 

A lot can happen in five years - as I said before, long term relationships ebb and flow. Couples can fall in love all over again. In addition nothing you have said indicates that he has backed off from her in the bedrrom. The joke seems to be that he gets it from her when he can.

 

There are mm who lose interest in their wives "I lost the urge to rip her knickers off" being a line I've heard a lot over the years. But it doesn't seem to be the case with your MM. He's still up for it even if she's only dolling it once every 6 weeks.

 

It's no use saying "if their lovelife is back on track why is he sleeping with me"? You are a wonderful supplement to his life, but you are not the centre of that life.

 

It would be interesting to hear what he said about their lovelife to you - I think with him you probaby would get the truth. I think it's time you started asking more questions so that you've got a realistic take on the whole affair.