I wonder if he'll answer me honestly about how often he sleeps with his wife

October 9, 2008

Agreed. But when we so vehemently speak against the cheater, we imply that the BS is innocent. Far from it.

The BS may indeed be part of the issues in the marriage. The circumstances in each marriage obviously vary. Sometimes, the BS could be the main source of the problem...sometimes, it could be the WS...sometimes (most often?) a mix of both.

But...the BS is NEVER, NEVER responsible for the WS's choice to cheat.

HUGE differentiation there.

Both were normally in that same troubled marriage...but the WS's solely responsible for the choice to cheat.

October 9, 2008

It all depends on what the OW wants or expects from the relationship.

If a MM goes to a woman who gives sex for pay, then he is getting his needs met and he is not selfish, right?

I see the point you're making and yet I don't.

At least the transaction with a prostitute is honest. But in the beginning of the affair, it is mostly BS from the MM.

I have never known any MM tell a potential OW: "Look, the wife hasn't given me a BJ in two years but I'm not leaving her cos I love her to bits, she's a great mother and she cooks a mean roast. Plus, I'm not letting the bitch take half my pension and the house and half my wages. But you'll do for now, you're gorgeous - I won't be able to spend much time on you but I expect you to be available to see me at the drop of a hat and always be up for some hot sex. You and I will never spend the holidays together and will rarely go out to dinner in case we're spotted. And if my wife finds out about us I will simply tell her you meant nothing to me and it was you who did all the chasing and that you're a nutjob."

How many women would say yes to that? No wonder MM have to lie in the beginning to get what they want..

October 9, 2008

But what really bothered me today was my co-worker. This guy , i swear, he never talks much, but lately he's been acting strange. Today he comes in my office and asks me if he can "talk" to me. He's always been friendly with me, but never this close. He tells me he's been having an affair with this woman (he's married) for like two years, and he found out last night that she got in a car accident and died. He started crying in my freaking office because he said he's loved her these two years mroe than any woman he'd ever known and he never told her and he hadn't wanted to break up his family, and now she was dead and he could never tell her.
What a f**king depressing day.

That is awful! I wonder if he'll be able to go to the funeral?

Maybe take your mind off your dilemma and focus on this guy? Take him out for lunch and to talk. Because you may be the only person he can talk to about this. What a nightmare.

October 9, 2008

It all depends on what the OW wants or expects from the relationship.

If a MM goes to a woman who gives sex for pay, then he is getting his needs met and he is not selfish, right?

I don't see any difference with a man who has an OW and a man who pays for his OW for years on a regular basis.. IMO it is exactly the same as an affair.. I see no difference ...

I see myself as a surrogate partner..

October 9, 2008

All this back and forth is giving me a headache. i think i got my question answered. At the end of the day people have their own views on things and no amount of arguing will change their opinion. it's like trying to convince a devout catholic god doesn't exist. Futile despite their lack of concrete evidence to the contrary.

Seriously, my head hurts so bad today I want to cry. MM canceled plans to see me today, which happens, I guess. One of the patients we both worked with back in the day had to have emergency surgery today so he won't be available till too late for me, I have plans later.

But what really bothered me today was my co-worker. This guy , i swear, he never talks much, but lately he's been acting strange. Today he comes in my office and asks me if he can "talk" to me. He's always been friendly with me, but never this close. He tells me he's been having an affair with this woman (he's married) for like two years, and he found out last night that she got in a car accident and died. He started crying in my freaking office because he said he's loved her these two years mroe than any woman he'd ever known and he never told her and he hadn't wanted to break up his family, and now she was dead and he could never tell her.
What a f**king depressing day.

OMG.. sure is a sad day for him...

October 9, 2008

I see myself as a surrogate partner..

And interestingly enough, you may actually prevent the breakup of marriages.

October 9, 2008

And interestingly enough, you may actually prevent the breakup of marriages.

Exactly.. and I honestly think that it is true for many A not just the surrogates..

October 9, 2008

All this back and forth is giving me a headache. i think i got my question answered. At the end of the day people have their own views on things and no amount of arguing will change their opinion.

And as you undoubtedly know, our views are from our experiences.

Personally, I hope you did get an answer that will work for you. I have to say that I do not like the fact that so many BSs feel the need to turn a simple question into an attempt to vent their personal anger against all cheaters.

My sympathy goes to you on this difficult day. I can only imagine what that man is going through.

October 9, 2008

But...the BS is NEVER, NEVER responsible for the WS's choice to cheat.

HUGE differentiation there.

Both were normally in that same troubled marriage...but the WS's solely responsible for the choice to cheat.

I agree and disagree.

Let' say that I have a steak. I place it in front of my dog. And on top of that, I have refused to feed my dog for the past few days. She is hungry. She eats the steak.

Did I actually eat the steak? Did I choose to eat the steak?

No. The dog made the choice to eat the steak.

Is it my fault that she ate the steak?

The obvious answer is yes. If I had not placed the steak in front of my dog, then she never would have been tempted to eat the steak. And more importantly, if I had fed the dog so she was not hungry, then it is likely that she would not have been as tempted.

So it is in an affair. Ask a man if he would choose an affair, and I am guessing that most if not all would say, "Never!"

Yet so many do.

That is because the situation is such that when it is placed in front of them, they have no strength left to refuse. They have been in a marriage where they have been "hungry" for so long that they are starved. If their partner had fulfilled the "hunger" that they have, then they never would have made that choice.

When an affair occurs, NO ONE is innocent.

So yes, the BS is at fault for the affair, too. While the BS did not actually choose to cheat, he or she created a situation in which the partner felt compelled to cheat.

And yes, both are in the same troubled marriage, but this is not a good comparison. If my wife's main need from marriage is companionship and friendship (and it is), then she will not cheat if this is fulfilled. If mine is a sexual affirmation of her love (and it is), then I will not cheat if this is being fulfilled. If I refuse to spend time with her listening and chatting, then she will become frustrated. So when a man comes along who shows compassion and understanding while listening to her, then she will be attracted to that man. I have set her up for an affair.

So it is with sex. If she refuses to recognize the need that I have for sexual affirmation, then she is setting me up for an affair. While we both are in the same troubled marriage, only one of us may actually be "hungry."

October 9, 2008

So when a father is not there, he is slandered, but when he is there? Oh well? Not.

Splitting hairs here I think. I simply believe a father should raise his children and as such deserves no special kudos for doing so. I do however understand your point.

Her needs are being met.

Are they? It sounds like she has at least unresolved issue (his sex life with others). Again...I do get your tongue-in-cheek point.

However, it is just as wrong to make the assumption that the marriage would have been perfect if he had not cheated. The fact is...affairs do NOT happen in a vacuum. They result from a poor marriage.

Who said anything about a perfect union? And the presence or absence of perfection does not justify an affair. As nothing human can be perfect (my belief) then it is commitment that sees couples through the "bad" times. Something he seriously lacks.

Whose fault is the affair? Mostly the one who cheats, but also the one who refuses to fix the problems.

An affair is always 100% the WS fault. Always. There is no circumstance one can conjure up which can even remotely blame the BS. An affair happens because the WS has the opportunity and will to cheat. He or she could choose therapy. He or she could choose divorce. He or she could choose to discuss an open marriage with the spouse. They don't. They choose to cheat. True, the BS can help create conditions for an A but they are never responsible for the A itself. The WS is repsonsible for choosing to have an A. That's like saying that problem for you eating donuts is the donut shop next to your house. The problem is really you chosing to go and buy donuts. Man-up and take responsibilty for your actions...you cheat its your fault and noone elses. Period.

We verbally crucify the cheater but exalt the partner. We say he was selfish for wanting sex and breaking his marital vow, but we ignore the one who refused to give sex and in doing so broker her marital vow

Egads. Lets continue to blame the BS for the actions of the WS.

The BS contributes to conditions that allow for an A to happen. No more. Of course, the WS also contributes to such conditions and ultimately cheats. Its almost as if the BS has non-existant feelings or wants or needs. If one isn't satisfied it is reasonable to think the other is not as well. Yet the BS by definition is faithful and commited. An admirable quality. A mature quality. Perhaps even exalted.

We agree cheating is wrong...I disagree that the BS is "guilty".

October 9, 2008

An affair is always 100% the WS fault. Always. There is no circumstance one can conjure up which can even remotely blame the BS. An affair happens because the WS has the opportunity and will to cheat.

We agree cheating is wrong...I disagree that the BS is "guilty".

Read my analogy of the dog and the steak. I can set my wife up to cheat. When she actually chooses to cheat, I can say that I am not at fault, but in reality I am.

We all have opportunities to cheat every day...almost. I am not bragging, but I have literally had a woman tell me she wanted to cheat..."but oh you are married." I had no desire to cheat even though she was very attractive. So it is with women and men. The question always is...when the opportunity is there, will we have the desire? And then the question becomes...what creates the desire?

Think. As a guy, when I have plenty of sex, I have no desire to have more. When my wife has plenty of open communication with me, then she has no desire to find someone else to confide in. Needs are being met. Desires are being fulfilled. Opportunities are being ignored.

I do not condone cheating, and I agree that tough times in marriage require commitment and selfless ignorance of one's desires.

BUT...to say that only one person chose to cheat with no fault to the one who created the "hunger" to cheat, then we must agree to disagree.

It is not logical to blame only one for a decision that was influenced by the other.

October 9, 2008

Anyway James, how can you equate your view with the survey that says 75 per cent of cheating men said their marriages were not in trouble leading up to the affair?

Can you really speak on behalf of those men?

October 9, 2008

Anyway James, how can you equate your view with the survey that says 75 per cent of cheating men said their marriages were not in trouble leading up to the affair?

Actually it was 75% of British cheating men who were surveyed. And how many men were surveyed? What was their status after the survey? Were these men who were divorced or men who were reconciling with their wives? Men in reconciliation will be more inclined to take the blame to avoid further conflict.

Did you have a link?

Can you really speak on behalf of those men?

No, because the only info I have has been supplied by you.

October 9, 2008

And as you undoubtedly know, our views are from our experiences.

Personally, I hope you did get an answer that will work for you. I have to say that I do not like the fact that so many BSs feel the need to turn a simple question into an attempt to vent their personal anger against all cheaters.

My sympathy goes to you on this difficult day. I can only imagine what that man is going through.

Tht's what happens when you choose to ask questions on a publicly acessible board, I guess. Even though this is the OM/OW board and it specifically states at the top that its supposed to be "support for those who find themselves involved with a partner committed to someone else" or whatnot, people who have been hurt, particularly many BS's come here to vent their anger at us. Wht can you do. I gets on me after a while. I don't go on the infidelity boards to flaunt my affair in their face, or tell them they all asked for it by being bad spouses, but anger blinds people. I didn't come here for morality suggestions as to what I was doing was right or wrong.

but that's irelevent right now anyway. This situation with my co-worker has got me so depressed I can't breathe or see straight. I want to just burst into tears thinking this poor woman probably was in love with this man for two years and neither of them told each other and everyone probably thought they were a couple of assh**es and he was a prick for cheating on his wife and she was some whore of a woman and now this guy is going to wish the rest of his life he'd done something. I guess you only realize what you have when you lose it. I don't know.

I guess my MM will never realize he's got anything good either. Hopefully I won't have anything bad happen to mne of course, but I swear this feeling of intense longing has just come over me and all I want to do is close my office door and cry hysterically, but I'll suck it up and go try to talk to this guy some more because I can't imagine what he's feeling. What the hell do I say to him anyway? Im sorry you never told her you love her? Im sorry that, like me, she probably was miserable every day thinking you didn't really care about her and were just using her for sex and thought about you going home to your wife every night, but don't worry, now she's dead so it won't bother her? F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K

October 9, 2008

Actually it was 75% of British cheating men who were surveyed. And how many men were surveyed? What was their status after the survey? Were these men who were divorced or men who were reconciling with their wives? Men in reconciliation will be more inclined to take the blame to avoid further conflict.

Did you have a link?

No, because the only info I have has been supplied by you.

No I did reply back I couldn't find a link. OK there are lots of instances around this statistic. It's not black and white.

But I think you're being a tad black and white about this issue because of your experience.

October 9, 2008

Actually it was 75% of British cheating men who were surveyed. And how many men were surveyed? What was their status after the survey? Were these men who were divorced or men who were reconciling with their wives? Men in reconciliation will be more inclined to take the blame to avoid further conflict.

Did you have a link?

No, because the only info I have has been supplied by you.

I don't believe in those surveys.. some cheaters, when ask, will say they never cheated..

I have yet to see any kind of survey that is 100% reliable..

October 9, 2008

Tht's what happens when you choose to ask questions on a publicly acessible board, I guess. Even though this is the OM/OW board and it specifically states at the top that its supposed to be "support for those who find themselves involved with a partner committed to someone else" or whatnot, people who have been hurt, particularly many BS's come here to vent their anger at us. Wht can you do. I gets on me after a while. I don't go on the infidelity boards to flaunt my affair in their face, or tell them they all asked for it by being bad spouses, but anger blinds people. I didn't come here for morality suggestions as to what I was doing was right or wrong.

but that's irelevent right now anyway. This situation with my co-worker has got me so depressed I can't breathe or see straight. I want to just burst into tears thinking this poor woman probably was in love with this man for two years and neither of them told each other and everyone probably thought they were a couple of assh**es and he was a prick for cheating on his wife and she was some whore of a woman and now this guy is going to wish the rest of his life he'd done something. I guess you only realize what you have when you lose it. I don't know.

I guess my MM will never realize he's got anything good either. Hopefully I won't have anything bad happen to mne of course, but I swear this feeling of intense longing has just come over me and all I want to do is close my office door and cry hysterically, but I'll suck it up and go try to talk to this guy some more because I can't imagine what he's feeling. What the hell do I say to him anyway? Im sorry you never told her you love her? Im sorry that, like me, she probably was miserable every day thinking you didn't really care about her and were just using her for sex and thought about you going home to your wife every night, but don't worry, now she's dead so it won't bother her? F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K

Kismet has your MM told you he loves you?

October 9, 2008

BUT...to say that only one person chose to cheat with no fault to the one who created the "hunger" to cheat, then we must agree to disagree.

ok. Well, I was going to simply reply with "ok" but a post must be at least 10 characters. Who knew?

October 9, 2008

But I think you're being a tad black and white about this issue because of your experience.

As are most of the poster who vehemently declare that the BS is 100% innocent when their partner chooses an affair. I guess the fact that they may actually have to accept some blame is a little hard to take.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not condoning affairs, nor am I saying that WS have no blame. Far from it.

As you say, my experiences help me understand why it is possible to NOT cheat when confronted with an opportunity and yet it also makes me realize that cheating is not just some random decision that occurs exclusive of the marital relationship.

I don't believe in those surveys.. some cheaters, when ask, will say they never cheated..

I have yet to see any kind of survey that is 100% reliable..

I agree. It goes deeper than that. The way the survey is structured, the experiences of the person asking the questions, and the situation surrounding each person surveyed makes a big difference.

But...still surveys DO give an idea of what people think. We just need to know a bit about the survey before drawing too many conclusions.

October 9, 2008

Tht's what happens when you choose to ask questions on a publicly acessible board, I guess. Even though this is the OM/OW board and it specifically states at the top that its supposed to be "support for those who find themselves involved with a partner committed to someone else" or whatnot, people who have been hurt, particularly many BS's come here to vent their anger at us. Wht can you do. I gets on me after a while. I don't go on the infidelity boards to flaunt my affair in their face, or tell them they all asked for it by being bad spouses, but anger blinds people. I didn't come here for morality suggestions as to what I was doing was right or wrong.

but that's irelevent right now anyway. This situation with my co-worker has got me so depressed I can't breathe or see straight. I want to just burst into tears thinking this poor woman probably was in love with this man for two years and neither of them told each other and everyone probably thought they were a couple of assh**es and he was a prick for cheating on his wife and she was some whore of a woman and now this guy is going to wish the rest of his life he'd done something. I guess you only realize what you have when you lose it. I don't know.

I guess my MM will never realize he's got anything good either. Hopefully I won't have anything bad happen to mne of course, but I swear this feeling of intense longing has just come over me and all I want to do is close my office door and cry hysterically, but I'll suck it up and go try to talk to this guy some more because I can't imagine what he's feeling. What the hell do I say to him anyway? Im sorry you never told her you love her? Im sorry that, like me, she probably was miserable every day thinking you didn't really care about her and were just using her for sex and thought about you going home to your wife every night, but don't worry, now she's dead so it won't bother her? F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K

Even though I strongly disagree with your relationship I do want to say my heart goes out to you. Your pain and fear come though loud and clear.

I hope you find peace with yourself.

October 9, 2008

Kismet has your MM told you he loves you?

Why do you want to know?

Anyway. Once, a long time ago. Before we had that year of NC. He was drunk. I tend to believe that truthfulness can come out when drunk but I asked him not to say crap to me when he's incapable of saying it sober and that in the long run he's not going to do anything about it so why bother to tell me anyway. I just didn't believe it, it means nothing to me when it's said after a bunch of beer. Hasn't said it since. Never acknowledged saying it that night. Seems like he's wanted to sometimes, but as I said earlier, he's emotionally stunted sometimes and trying to talk about his feelings is akin to ripping off his own arm, which to be honest is probably part of the reason him and his wife have problems, because he doesn't talk about things that bother him and she doesn't ask when it's obvious that something's amiss.

I normally do ask, but in this case, I want to hear it and at the same time wonder, what's the point....he's not going to break up his family for me anyway. But hearing what happened today, it makes me wonder if maybe you shouldn't just let people know how you feel. Sometimes you never get the chance and I think that ends up hurting worse than rejection.

I've never told him I love him. He's got no clue how deep my feelings run. I act like I don't care. He thinks if he doesn't see me, then Im just dissapointed Im not getting laid that day. I'm crushed he can't see me today, even though he's got a legitimate reason. All week all I've wanted is to lay next to him for one hour and just feel him hug me and forget about my crappy, stressful, depressing existence for one effing hour.

I swear, I will never let myself get into something like this again. First and last MM in my life, ever. This is torture.

The guy I work with went home early today just now. I wonder how he's going to explain to his wife why he's so upset today....tell her an old friend from school died, maybe. Sad.

October 9, 2008

Something to realize, Kismet.

You've not been bashed, made fun of, or called names by the vast majority of posters...

I'm not angry. I'm not venting spleen. I'm outlining what I see as it applies to your situation, or to the discussion on this thread in general.

My intent is to support you...however, for me (and for many others) that support may NOT include support for your affair.

Since many of us feel that affairs aren't the best solution for ANYONE...BS, WS, or OM/OW, our support isn't centered around what you WANT (the affair)...but often more centered around helping you heal within yourself. The better you understand the dynamics of the whole situation (besides just your own viewpoint), the better choices you can make,

Support isn't about giving you what you want to hear. Support is about helping your figure out the best course of action for yourself.

Think about therapy. Most therapists (the good ones at least) aren't going to tell you things to make you happy. They're going to help you deal with things so that you fix the problems and become capable of being happy.

October 9, 2008

I've never told him I love him. He's got no clue how deep my feelings run. I act like I don't care. He thinks if he doesn't see me, then Im just dissapointed Im not getting laid that day. I'm crushed he can't see me today, even though he's got a legitimate reason. All week all I've wanted is to lay next to him for one hour and just feel him hug me and forget about my crappy, stressful, depressing existence for one effing hour.

As long as you act like you don't care he will never have to face up to the truth of what he's doing - making you feel crap. Why should you put on an act? What is the point of this relationship if you can't at least say how you feel. That doesn't mean he's going to leave his wife for you. But at least you can say it is an honest relationship.

I've done the whole acting like I don't care routine like you're doing - it does not work. Men just think you're hard and therefore strong enough to take any old crap from them. Be yourself, whatever the outcome might be.

October 9, 2008

My intent is to support you...however, for me (and for many others) that support may NOT include support for your affair.

That may be true, but when one posts on a Board that is by definition for those who are involved with cheaters, then one has two options....

Always point out to every one that they should not be in an affair (which BTW is usually well known to all).

Or.....

Specifically answer the questions and the situations as they are posted.

If I went to the Divorce Forum and told those who divorced that they should have stayed committed and worked harder at their marriage, then I would be abusing my right and missing the point of the board. They are looking for support while going through a divorce.

This forum is to answer questions and give support to those who are in affairs. And most of the ones who post here are the "single" ones. Technically, they are not the cheaters.

Yes, there are times that it may take some additional discussion about the situation and what it will bring. Yes, sometimes telling the person how they are being wronged by a cheater is important. And yes, even on occasion it is important to point out that when in an affair one cannot expect honesty. But every person posting a thread here does not require a lecture about their choice to be in an affair. Everyone does not need to be told that they are a cheater.

While I understand the anger and pain of those who have been wronged by cheaters may feel compelled to minister to those who in affairs, I do not believe that this is the board for that.

Sometimes the best therapists are those who are silent about their objections to what THEY feel is being done incorrectly.

The best therapists BTW let the client determine what the problem and solution are. The best ones do not browbeat the solution into the client's head.

October 9, 2008

James, I think you and I are in one of those phases where we're just not gonna see eye to eye, my friend.

I respectfully suggest we both continue to post our views and agree to disagree.

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I wonder if he'll answer me honestly about how often he sleeps with his wife

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