What marriage means for some men...

[marlena]

Having said that, I'm also a tad cynical although I'm determined not to allow it to run my life.

 

This could describe me as well. I am cynical about many things but never,ever bitter and like you, I never let my cynicism get in my way, if that makes any sense. I just recognize it for what it is and still go on my merry way.

[Trialbyfire]

What is the difference between being cynical and being wary and watchful?

Cynicism denotes a bad ending, regardless of external input. Being watchful and wary allows the person to make decisions/judgements based on external input.

[Alma Mobley]

As a child, were your parents happy in their marriage and still are happy?

 

Traumatic events can cause dysfunctional reactions albeit not near as badly as someone who during their entire family life, was raised on dysfunction. I don't know your situation alma but most people go through periods of cynicism based on assorted situations, then they move on beyond it. If you still remain in a dysfunctional situation, you'll find that it's far more difficult to move forward.

 

Sorry, Trial, no trauma, unless you count being raised as a fundamentalist Christian. I did have issues -- as did my brother -- which was corrected with medication. (I have four siblings, but only one brother and I had chemical imbalances.) Oh wait -- yes, lots of trauma involving that -- but no abuse by my parents or cheating.

 

However, I don't think my "trauma" or life experience during the time I lived with my parents fueled any sort of belief in marriage or long-term relationships.

[45Reverse]

No way , Liz. Guys buy into the romance thing way more than women,IMO. I've seen this so many times. The dumbass guy(like me) beleiving his wife really gives a **** about him, when , in fact , she views him as a meal ticket or some other superficial BS. Don't see too many women marrying down financially. Guys will marry the pauper if she looks good and is nice. Women are much more calculating.

 

Healthy amount of truth to this....

[marlena]

Cynicism denotes a bad ending, regardless of external input. Being watchful and wary allows the person to make decisions/judgements based on external input.

 

I see it differently. I see it as being realistic with a dash of humour.

[Mr. Lucky]

The only thing that keeps me a bit optimistic is that my husband has always said that the top three reasons he married me were 1) my intelligence 2) my personality and 3) my performance in bed. That number 3 might get us going for awhile, I hope, before his inevitable betrayal.

"Inevitable"? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[marlena]

Maybe sarcasm?

 

 

Maybe. The most cynical people I have ever met are the Brits and they have an inimitable sense of dry humour. Amazing how they combine the two.

[Alma Mobley]

"Inevitable"? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not ?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I don't know... You tell me!

[45Reverse]

Ha.. you're already a statistic.. no matter what your attitude is.. there is no hope these days and age, for a long term relationship/marriage .. whatever.. nothing even close to what our grandparents lived.. because in those years.. women could not leave.. now they do.. they don't take crap anymore.. and it's this is not just the point.. the point is.. no one can love the same person forever.. it just doesn't happen.

 

You know Lizzie...I rarely agree with your posts. You're cynical in a way that gives me the willies and almost flippant about subjects like infidelity. That kind of stuff always makes me take a close look at the person behind the sentiments.

 

But for once I have to agree w/ you here. You said:

 

".. nothing even close to what our grandparents lived.. because in those years.. women could not leave.. now they do.. they don't take crap anymore.. "

 

I think it's a great thing that women have made the gains they have in the past 50 odd years. Financial, emotional, intellectual...all good.

 

The problem w/ men and marriage (life long love, if you will) is not neccessarily that women can and do leave now-a-days...It's that the "system" (read family courts and the divorce industry) have so drastically skewed the playing field to the woman's favor that men are SCARED TO DEATH to commit to a woman anymore.

 

Consider this---- most women (not ALL, but by far the vast majority) can look at divorce and know that they will take the kids, take the house, take half of the assests, and take most of the husband's future income in a divorce. More often than not the father will see his kids 4 days a month and pay the Ex thousands a month for that "priviledge".

 

You probably don't have kids so you would have no idea how much this can tear a man's heart out.

 

...So I ask. What does a woman REALLY have to risk by marriage these days???? Sure she can get hurt emotionally. But so can the guy. But in reality, all of you women know that if the marriage doesn't work the way you want you can divorce the guy and take just about everything of value to him including his children. There's a dam good reason that more than 75% of divorces are initiated by women.

 

So if we take your statement:

"the point is.. no one can love the same person forever.. it just doesn't happen." - at face value doesn't it follow that women who enter marriages are aware of the high probability that they will 'fall out of love'? And if that's true AND you can agree that the divorce industry favors the woman, then you have your answer as to why things are the way they are.

 

Slowly but surely men are becomeing more and more resistent to the idea of "life long love" b/c the divorce industry (and women by extension) have simply made the prospect of marriage too risky for men.

 

I predict that in another 10 years the biggest complaint we'll hear on LS is "We're both maddly in love with each other....so why won't my guy marry me?"

 

Quick Poll for the ladies here:

 

Do you agree or disagree that the divorce system usually "favors" (custodially, finacially, emotionally) the wife? Why?

[45Reverse]

I'd be curious to know how many LSers are in their first marriage/relationship and has been for over 15-20 years..

 

My guess.. not too many... if any.

 

Just divorced my wife of 14 years last May...She 'fell out of love', I didn't. Like I said in an earlier post. It's not often that I agree w/ you but this time I do.

[Alma Mobley]

I predict that in another 10 years the biggest complaint we'll hear on LS is "We're both maddly in love with each other....so why won't my guy marry me?"

 

Aren't we already seeing that?

 

Quick Poll for the ladies here:

 

Do you agree or disagree that the divorce system usually "favors" (custodially, finacially, emotionally) the wife? Why?

 

If the children are under a certain age (depends on state and I am talking about the US here) then it favors the mother. I think the laws are getting better, however.

[Alma Mobley]

Just divorced my wife of 14 years last May...She 'fell out of love', I didn't. Like I said in an earlier post. It's not often that I agree w/ you but this time I do.

 

I am not asking this because I am a bitch or anything. But had you been unfaithful to her before she became unfaithful to you?

 

Not accusing, not judging, just wondering.

[lonelyandfrustrated]

Do you agree or disagree that the divorce system usually "favors" (custodially, finacially, emotionally) the wife? Why?

 

Custodially, yes, the favor is to the mother. More often nowadays, though, I'm seeing joint custody. Men are more involved with their children than they were historically.

 

Financially? Depends on the situation. I really believe that! I hate seeing guys complain that their ex gets $1500/mo of their $100k salary for child support, especially in situations where the wife was a SAHM and the guy was an *ss. When my parents split in 1980, my dad kept the house because my mother hadn't worked for 13 years and couldn't afford it. Most of the people I know of who've been through this in recent years have sold the assets instead of splitting them.

 

Emotionally? I'm heading toward a divorce myself (and if I do, it will be me filing because my H really couldn't give a crap), and if that happens, I'll be an emotional wreck. I'm already a wreck. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't.

[Alma Mobley]

When I divorced, it was a good thing I had a pre-nup or my ex would have had half my IRA, though I worked at the job for 15 years before we met. We split things pretty much 50/50, including debt. I got custody of our son because, frankly, I was the primary caretaker. We both worked, but I was the one who took him to all the doctor appointments, did the school outings and conferences, and dental appointments. I did the taking to and picking up from daycare on work days. THAT was the determining factor, and it had to be documented for the court for them to make a finding in my favor. I only receive less than $170 a month support for a 14 year old 5 ft. 10 in. son.

 

So if you think every divorce ends with the woman automatically getting everything, not necessarily true. I got custody because my ex was a lazy dad while we were married, and I get next to nothing in support because he is a deadbeat dad after the divorce.

 

I think the question was for "generally" though I think it is getting better. In your case, I understand.

[Alma Mobley]

Okay, here is what happened to my sister -- she got married very young to a man about 7 years older than she. When she got pregnant, he wasn't very happy about it. But, they had the kid. Then they started trying, both of them agreeing to have more kids, and two years later she had another baby.

 

The father, my sister's husband, didn't want anything to do with the kids or child-rearing. He didn't want to hear them, period. He was what I would term "abusive" but not the state in that he neglected them and reprimanded them constantly. It was bad, and my sister left him. He never even wanted those kids.

 

But -- lo, she left him, suddenly he wanted full custody of the kids he never wanted, and regularly told her didn't want, from infants!

 

OK, so why did he suddenly want these kids and sue my sister for sole custody? I mean, really?

[Alma Mobley]

Yeah, I know, but I can only draw on my own experience, so I offered it up as an example. Otherwise it would all be mere conjecture on my part.

 

Nothing wrong with that ..

[45Reverse]

I am not asking this because I am a bitch or anything. But had you been unfaithful to her before she became unfaithful to you?

 

Not accusing, not judging, just wondering.

 

Absolutely not...The "infidelity score" in my marriage was:

 

wife - 6 (that I can prove...few others that are just 'suspicions')

 

45Reverse- 0

 

I was true to her until the day the divorce decree was signed...Well actually the first woman I slept with other than my wife didn't happen until 5 months after my divorce.

[Alma Mobley]

Absolutely not...The "infidelity score" in my marriage was:

 

wife - 6 (that I can prove...few others that are just 'suspicions')

 

45Reverse- 0

 

I was true to her until the day the divorce decree was signed...Well actually the first woman I slept with other than my wife didn't happen until 5 months after my divorce.

 

Thank you for you answer. Yes, I believe you. (I know it was a personal question.)

[45Reverse]

Okay, here is what happened to my sister -- she got married very young to a man about 7 years older than she. When she got pregnant, he wasn't very happy about it. But, they had the kid. Then they started trying, both of them agreeing to have more kids, and two years later she had another baby.

 

The father, my sister's husband, didn't want anything to do with the kids or child-rearing. He didn't want to hear them, period. He was what I would term "abusive" but not the state in that he neglected them and reprimanded them constantly. It was bad, and my sister left him. He never even wanted those kids.

 

But -- lo, she left him, suddenly he wanted full custody of the kids he never wanted, and regularly told her didn't want, from infants!

 

OK, so why did he suddenly want these kids and sue my sister for sole custody? I mean, really?

 

You cite the exception...Not the rule.

 

Everyone can find an exception if they want to. I stand by what I said previously. The number of men willing to marry in this country will keep dwindling precipitously so long as they know the screwing they are in for should their marriage ever fail.

 

FWIW- I loathe the thought of EITHER parent getting "Full CVstody"...That a sickening way to treat a child.

[Ruby Slippers]

Do you agree or disagree that the divorce system usually "favors" (custodially, finacially, emotionally) the wife? Why?

I think it might, but then I think a lot of other institutions and systems favor men. I think the government's main concern is that people be able to raise their children so they become contributing members of society (taxpayer$, not welfare recipients or criminals) in the future.

 

But I think men's (and women's) growing skittishness about commitment is rooted in more than divorce law. My recent ex seemed to be totally ignorant about that matter, but he was still fairly anti-marriage, as were a lot of his 30-something friends. Like I said earlier, I think that society just doesn't encourage or reward long-term commitment the way it used to.

 

I really think the media and the advertising industry are part of the problem. (I think the wide, free, and easy availability of porn is a contributor to the illusion of having it all, too, but I'm not going to open that can of worms now.) Advertising moves product by keeping people dissatisfied with what they have. Buy this and you'll be more attractive, more successful, happier, blah blah blah. They program people with this discontent and unending desire to acquire bigger and better things, younger/hotter/buffer/sexier sex partners, the latest $500 gadgets and electronic junk, $50 face cream, $30 lip gloss, and so on.

 

I steer clear of the consumerist mainstream as much as I can, and it's not easy. People respond to those trends, buy into them, and act like you're a little weird if you don't. You buy a pair of $800 shoes and your girlfriends celebrate you as if you have arrived. My computer is a few years old, and it does everything I need it to do. More than one person has suggested I get a new one. Why? I don't need a new one. Many people don't see the value in sticking with something for its lifetime anymore. And I think this extends to people as well.

[Alma Mobley]

Donna,

 

.....I was asking a sincere question in good faith.

[Lizzie60]

You know Lizzie...I rarely agree with your posts.

 

You wouldn't be the first..

 

Consider this---- most women (not ALL, but by far the vast majority) can look at divorce and know that they will take the kids, take the house, take half of the assests, and take most of the husband's future income in a divorce. More often than not the father will see his kids 4 days a month and pay the Ex thousands a month for that "priviledge".

 

I don't think the woman gets everything.. she gets her half.

 

You probably don't have kids so you would have no idea how much this can tear a man's heart out.

 

Yes I do.. and when I left my first ex.. my daughter was in university and my son was at home.. he did live with his dad and I PAYED the support.

 

 

I do agree that, in some cases, the woman is too greedy and is being a bit*ch.. but if she was cheated, I think, part of it, is revenge.. can't blame her..

 

When I said that women, 50-60 years ago couldn't leave.. it wasn't the system.. they were scre*wed.. they had 8-10 kids, SAHM.. they had to take all the crap.. then it slowly changed.. and I'm happy we're independant (well more anyway)..

 

When I left my first ex.. I left with only the old furniture from the basement.. I didn't want to take anything from the home, since I didn't want to upset my son. I wasn't making half the money I'm making today.. and I had to pay alimony.. my ex was greedy... I didn't even touch his investments and his pension (he was with the gov't) and I was in the private sector, so I had no benefits, no pension like he had..

 

I was more than good to him.. I don't really regret it but in a way I was the one who got scr*wed..

 

Do you agree or disagree that the divorce system usually "favors" (custodially, finacially, emotionally) the wife? Why?

 

I agree, that in some cases, the father is scre*wed.. but you have to admit that a lot of men DO NOT want the primary responsibility of the children.. they know very well that the mother is wwaaayyy better for that.. but I have to agree that sometimes, the financial demands are wwwayyy too much...

 

I will always say that young kids are wwwayyy better off with their mother.. nobody on this planet will make me say otherwise..

 

but I have to agree that 4-6 days a month is not enough and is not fair for the kids.. especially if the father pays a generous alimony.

[Lizzie60]

and I should add that when my first ex was kicked to the curb.. his ex would let him see the girls anytime they wanted to see him.. and he was giving her crumbs.. she had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet..

 

His girls were at our place almost everyday (same small town) and every weekend.. they loved their dad..

 

in other word, he's been a lucky b*stard to have 2 strong independant women who didn't try to ruin him..

[Alma Mobley]

You cite the exception...Not the rule.

 

Everyone can find an exception if they want to. I stand by what I said previously. The number of men willing to marry in this country will keep dwindling precipitously so long as they know the screwing they are in for should their marriage ever fail.

 

FWIW- I loathe the thought of EITHER parent getting "Full CVstody"...That a sickening way to treat a child.

 

I didn't just cite an exception, I cited family, sorry. I was actually agreeing with you before. Why get all nasty about it?

[Alma Mobley]

Reverse, I can't have a rational discourse with you. I cannot talk with you if are verbally vomiting all over everything and spewing invective. Get back to me on that one, until then I will just argue with Lizzie.

 

Thanks!