What is Faith?

[ed-205]

So, what *would* you put on a cheeseburger?

[disgracian]

Nothing. The cheeseburger is perfect just the way it is.

 

Cheers,

D.

[ed-205]

D, You are correct! (Not that there is a *wrong* answer. I would have said that the only condiment that could possibly improve a cheeseburger is another cheeseburger). A lifelong vegetarian would have no concept of this, and might suggest lettuce, onions, tomatoes, mushrooms, peppers, all of which are quite tasty, but are wholly incapable of making a cheeseburger more of a cheeseburger. It is what it is, and anything you *add* to it can only make it less so. It is with this simplicity that I define "faith", and it has more to do with Quantum principles and Boolean logic than a sense of "Spirituality". To see this, one must acquire a "Beginner's Mind". You must first understand that you simply cannot understand, because our minds are limited to our 3 dimensional sense of reality. We cannot have a concept of *Absolute Nothingness* anymore than we can stand in an "empty" room. In Quantum Mechanics, there is no difference between the "observer" and the "observed".

This recursive logic is apparent throughout Quantum Mechanics, at the very sub-atomic boundary where our perception of reality as we know it ends, and another begins.

What has all this to do with Faith? I'll try to explain, but I can be a bit clumsy about it.

Previously, I said "Faith in a gift, and you must ask for it.", but whom do you ask if you don't believe in God? This is where a non-diest might run into problems of perception (and I'm NOT trying to convert anyone here!), but it works something like this:

 

You ask God for Faith (demand it, actually). The process of "demanding" faith is in itself an *act* of faith, you could not do if it didn't exist to begin with, yet you now *know* it exists. Within that instant it becomes both "real" and eternal, (without beginning or end). This is impossible for our minds to fully comprehend because we are limited to a 3 dimensional reality, and Faith (like God), extends throughout *all* dimensions within our Universe. Like Electromagnetic Fields, it's existence is an independent reality of itself, and not reducible to any medium or object binding it to any other given reality.

 

The elements of "Hope", which include factors of probability and uncertainty, are *Limitations* of our own perception of reality, not unlike our perception of particles as waves and vice a versa. It seems impossible, not because it cannot be true, but because we cannot perceive beyond the level of "our" reality to understand why that is so. These limitations are transcended by the sense of "Faith", which like consciousness itself, is unlimited.

 

This is a very brief explanation. You might get a better grasp of it if you read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav, or even "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig.

[Geishawhelk]

...And if you're an atheist....?

[ed-205]

Then, I guess you're on your own! Not that there's anything particularly *wrong* with that. After all, It was God himself who gave us the ability to decide for ourselves, but to me it seems to be a self-limited perspective.

To use the "empty room" example again, it's as if an atheist walks into an empty room, and says "There's no-one in here.", which is essentially true, but incomplete. From my perspective, I would say the atheist is simply looking in the wrong direction.

It is the recursive nature of Faith that creates the paradox. The non-believer may ask, "How can I create something from nothing?", and the answer is simply, "You can't." You can only create within yourself the awareness that it *does* exist because it always has and always will, even if it's very existence defies the common sense of classical knowledge. You can't change the whole Universe, only that tiny part of it that we call "self".

Take, for example, the speed of light at 186,000 miles/sec. Classical Physics says that if we travel toward a light source at 100 miles/sec, that we would measure the relative speed of light at 186,100 m/s, and if we travel away from it at the same speed, we would measure it at 185,900 m/s. The truth is that this does not happen, and we still measure the speed of light at 186,000 m/s, and our motion relative to the source makes no difference. Physicists spent years trying to figure out why, until Einstein finally said, "Who cares! It's a simple fact, accept it for what it is!", and the speed of light became the constant "c" in his famous equation E=mc^2.

Time, OTOH, we would expect to pass at a constant rate, but it doesn't. The speed at which time passes is relative to the motion of the observer, and flying across the country means that as you arrive at your destination, the airport clock would indicate you are a few nanoseconds "younger" than you would have been had you stayed home, even though your watch would tell you otherwise.

 

Of course, I'm taking some liberties here. I'm not claiming that Quantum Physics proves the existence of God, I'm simply using these as examples for a different way of looking at ourselves and our beliefs.

[Love Hurts]

Lot of greate posts on this one...

to Moose, I have a similar sign posted near my PC.

 

It reads;

GOOD MORNING THIS IS GOD,

I will be handling all of your problems today.

I will not need you help.

So, relax and have a great day!

 

Id like to add a thought connecting Salvation to Faith…

 

John 2:23-24 speaks of an intellectual ascent [to God]

 

Paul said this gospel of the Death Burial and Resurrection will... Save you; unless you have believed in vein.

 

-We know having not seen God is to believe by faith.

 

An empty mental ascent, shown in this comparison;

 

I Believe George Washington lived and died.

I Believe Jesus lived and died...[ not enough]

 

Concluding: when the mind determines and the heart doesn’t agree; its not faith.

Likewise when the heart feels and the mind does not agree; its not faith.

 

Q: So how do we know our salvation is real or not?

A: When its from the heart and mind

 

Faith-is believing in the unseen, with "your heart and mind in one accord"

 

God Bless

[Geishawhelk]

.....Of course, I'm taking some liberties here. I'm not claiming that Quantum Physics proves the existence of God, I'm simply using these as examples for a different way of looking at ourselves and our beliefs.

 

Precisely so.

Science is proveable.

Faith isn't.

 

It demands of the believer a step into the unknown, hence the phrase "a leap into the unknown"....just like the blind child who jumps off the wall, into daddy's arms.... he has the faith that daddy will catch him, and save him from crashing to the pavement....

He can't see where his father is standing, but he is encouraged to jump nevertheless. And he feels adequately safe, secure and - faith-ful - to do so.

[ed-205]

Precisely so.

Science is proveable.

Faith isn't.

 

It demands of the believer a step into the unknown, hence the phrase "a leap into the unknown"....just like the blind child who jumps off the wall, into daddy's arms.... he has the faith that daddy will catch him, and save him from crashing to the pavement....

He can't see where his father is standing, but he is encouraged to jump nevertheless. And he feels adequately safe, secure and - faith-ful - to do so.

 

Not to be contrary, but are you saying that the child's leap is not proof of his faith, or that science is provable, and faith is intangible, and therefore cannot be? That is one of the limitations of 3 dimensional thought.

 

When Einstein set forth his general theory of relativity (in part, that we live in a 4 dimensional reality, not 3), he had no proof other than his famous "thought experiments", yet he *knew* he was right. It wasn't until many years after his death that most of his theory gained the "proof" it needed to be accepted as "science", (and there are still parts of it that remain *unproven*). Was this theory then not an act of "faith" on Einsteins part? And, if so, would that scientific "proof" of his theory not also be "proof" of his faith? Lastly, would this "faith" in the unproven nature of the Universe be any different from the "faith" in the unproven existence of God, or even faith itself?

 

Just because something remains unproven does not mean it isn't real. It means that the observer currently lacks the perception to see the "reality" of the observed it for what it is, and relies on the "reality" of faith for guidance. Once *proof* has been established, faith *becomes* fact, even though it is no more "real" than it was before it was proven.

[disgracian]

Not to be contrary, but are you saying that the child's leap is not proof of his faith

What does proof of faith have to do with anything? We're talking about proof or faith. When we have proof, there is no need for faith, and vice versa.

or that science is provable, and faith is intangible, and therefore cannot be? That is one of the limitations of 3 dimensional thought.

No, the explanation is far simpler, you merely misunderstood what Geisha is talking about. You're confusing the thing with how it operates. Faith itself is not necessarily intangible, but it is required to believe in intangible, unproven (or unprovable) things.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Love Hurts]

What does proof of faith have to do with anything? We're talking about proof or faith. When we have proof, there is no need for faith, and vice versa.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

 

“When we have proof, there is no need for faith, and vice versa.”

 

Powerful … as Jesus said more blessed is he that believes and has not seen.

 

Even still we can see the works of faith and be encouraged.

 

For example; the book of Hebrews 11 if filled with proof of faith of the Saints of old.

 

Their accomplishments were by faith thus proving by faith these things were accomplished.

 

Your correct and then we “can be” encouraged by others that have and do walk in faith.

 

Note; I would list some of those encouraging scriptures from Hebrews 11

 

But that’s not sweet it bible thumping… he he

 

Still I recommend you take a peek at them.

 

[disgracian]

Unless of course one believes in the wrong thing without having seen, then Jesus uses an adjective other than "blessed".

 

Most religions only make sense if you completely ignore every other religion that has ever existed.

 

Cheers,

D.

[ed-205]

What does proof of faith have to do with anything? We're talking about proof or faith. When we have proof, there is no need for faith, and vice versa.

 

No, the explanation is far simpler, you merely misunderstood what Geisha is talking about. You're confusing the thing with how it operates. Faith itself is not necessarily intangible, but it is required to believe in intangible, unproven (or unprovable) things.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

I understand and agree with you. In the presence of proof, faith becomes fact and ceases to be faith. What I'm trying to say is that Faith and Hope are not the same thing from the Christian aspect. Even the Bible puts them in separate categories, imploring Christians to have *both* faith and hope. Faith is *knowing* in the absence of proof. Hope is *belief* where you do not have Faith.

[ed-205]

Most religions only make sense if you completely ignore every other religion that has ever existed.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

That's probably because most religions were developed independently in different areas of the world at a time long before mass communication appeared. Although I stick with Christianity because that's what I know best, I have a hard time thinking that any one religion is better suited for the entire world than any other. The important thing is that we all have a spiritual path to follow, and I'm pretty sure they all lead to the same place. Even Christ said that the Sabbath was made to serve man, not man to serve the Sabbath.

[Geishawhelk]

....The important thing is that we all have a spiritual path to follow, and I'm pretty sure they all lead to the same place.

What place would that be? if you're talking 'Heaven', even that thought process needs examining....

 

.....Even Christ said that the Sabbath was made to serve man, not man to serve the Sabbath.

Wise chap.

[ed-205]

What place would that be? if you're talking 'Heaven', even that thought process needs examining....

 

We can call it whatever we like, and think of it in any terms that fit within our sense of reality. Heaven, Valhalla, Nirvana, or whatever makes sense to us. Christ simply referred to it as "My Father's Kingdom", beyond that, I don't think it's possible for us to understand it well enough to even conceive of it. Our goal in this reality is simply to get there.

I think it's interesting to note that *any* Christian (for example), can tell you how to get there, but I have yet to meet one who can tell me (beyond a *very* general sense) what it's going to be like, or what's going to happen once we do.

How do I know that "Heaven" even exists? Well, I take it on faith, but let me offer something a bit less intangible:

A free proton can suddenly appear out of nowhere, annihilate itself by splitting into a neutron and a +pion which then collide to create a completely new (yet identical) proton that just as suddenly disappears again. Quantum Physicists *know* this happens, but cannot explain how or why it does. Either the known laws of conservation of matter and energy are wrong, or absolute *nothingness* simply doesn't exist. Some of them have even gone so far as to propose that this same inexplicable sub-atomic activity may be manifested within our consciousness in the form of our Spirituality, ie: our ability to *have* things like "Faith".

[Geishawhelk]

If you understand it, you can reflect on it.

 

if you can reflect on it, you can choose to either accept it, or reject it.

Always respecting, in this instance, that others will accept what you reject - and that this is their right.

 

If you accept it, you should live by it 100%, 100% of the time.

If you do not understand it, the wisest thing is to leave it aside as an imponderable.

 

Imponderables without answer (Is there a God? Inexplicable sub-atomic activity, What is heaven like? does Adam have a belly-button?) are a useless waste of energy, that could be devoted to self-improvement equanimity and Compassion.

[ed-205]

like, "what is the sound of one hand clapping"?

[disgracian]

What I'm trying to say is that Faith and Hope are not the same thing from the Christian aspect.

They are very similar, so much so that differences are mostly just semantics.

Faith is *knowing* in the absence of proof. Hope is *belief* where you do not have Faith.

This may just be because I'm a pedant, but I'd say it is simply impossible to know anything without proof or at the very least some form of tangible evidence. To say otherwise, in my not so very humble opinion, is to confuse knowledge with certainty.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Geishawhelk]

like, "what is the sound of one hand clapping"?

 

No.

That's a Koan.

 

It's a tool used by Zen Buddhism..... It's objective is to still the thought process enough for the person to be able to experience a glimpse of Satori.....

[Geishawhelk]

What I'm trying to say is that Faith and Hope are not the same thing from the Christian aspect.

If you have a look at my first response in this thread (it's the first one after the OP) I make a clear distinction with regard to what Christian Faith is, by 'definition' as opposed to the kind of Faith held by Buddhists.

 

see what you think. As Disgracian points out, it starts being a question of semantics.

[Explorer]

This statement is so flawed I don't know where to start.!

 

Well don't keep me waiting.....do explain Ms. righteous.

[Geishawhelk]

Faith is an intuitive response to absolute truth.

 

Well don't keep me waiting.....do explain Ms. righteous.

 

First of all, there's no need for condescending sarcasm.

Secondly, glad you've come back to ask.

 

To your first quotation:

ONE: Give me an absolute Truth.

 

TWO: Why would you require Faith in it, if it's 'Absolute' - unless of course, you mean Faith in the sense of 100% Confidence - in which case, I think you might have clarified.

If it's an absolute truth (and I have to wait for your definition of one, for that) it speaks for itself and needs no Faith. it's obvious, so faith doesn't come into it......

Thirdly, your use of the word 'intuitive' would imply that you don't mean 'Confidence' because only someone who has researched something to the most complete and fullest degree can aver confidence. "Intuitive" would imply doing something on a feeling.....

So how can you have a feeling about something, on instinct, if you haven't researched it, but feel confident it's an absolute truth?

[ed-205]

No.

That's a Koan.

 

It's a tool used by Zen Buddhism..... It's objective is to still the thought process enough for the person to be able to experience a glimpse of Satori.....

 

Yes! Sudden Enlightenment, and it takes your breath away when it happens! Pondering the imponderable is (to me anyway) rather much like a koan, whether it is the meaning of faith, the existence of God, the nature of the physical universe, or even the sound of one hand clapping. In order to even attempt to do this requires that one clear their mind, set aside all paradigms of thought, and experience things as a child with a "new mind". This is what I think Christ was saying when he said you must be as a little child to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

With Quantum Physics, it is becoming the "experience" of reality which is most fundamental, since reality as we understand it isn't always the reality we experience. Sometimes the theories derived from these experiences can only be described as abstract "Free Expressions" of the mind, but when we apply them to Quantum Science, they are amazingly accurate. This is similar to how I came to understand "faith" as I do.

The fact that I see similarities within Quantum Science, Christian faith*, Buddhism and other paths of consciousness is what leads me to say that these paths all lead to the same place, be it Heaven, Valhalla, Nirvana, or Indra's Palace.

 

*Not to be mistaken for Christian "Religion", which is man's limited interpretation of it.

[ed-205]

To your first quotation:

ONE: Give me an absolute Truth.

 

If I may, This one's a no-brainer! The only absolute truth is that *nothing* is absolute! (beyond our own experience of reality as we understand it, anyway).

[Geishawhelk]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Call me thick by all means....! )

 

Let me know if I understand you correctly....

 

If it's beyond our experience of Reality, then it cannot be called Absolute, because logically, anything beyond our experience is an unknown.

 

So...

 

What, WITHIN our experience of Reality then, would you therefore say IS an Absolute Truth?