The Porn Argument: Are we discussing the same thing?

[sxyNYCcpl]

I found myself recently on an anti-porn board or blog or something somewhere in cyberspace, where they did what none of the anti-porn folks have seemed to be able (or willing) to do. They drew a line between porn and erotica. Here is, unedited, their definitions:

 

PORNOGRAPHY: Material that combines sex and/or the exposure of genitals with abuse or degradation in a manner that appears to endorse, condone, or encourage such behavior.

 

EROTICA: Sexually suggestive or arousing material that is free of sexism, racism, and homophobia, and respectful of all human beings and animals portrayed.

 

Now, one of the arguments that Ms. NJ has made repeatedly is that porn is inherently degrading, a position which I fervently disagree with. However, based on this definition, that in order to be categorized as porn in the first place it must include abuse and degradation I'd have to say I am, myself, anti-porn as I am anti-abuse and anti-degredation.

 

But that leaves me in a conundrum. The porn (erotica?) I watch (and defend) does not have abuse or degradation, but neither is it merely sexually suggestive as frequently it's quite explicit. While I certainly acknowledge that abusive and degrading stuff is available, I neither want to see it, nor would I defend it, and if I found some by accident, it's not something I'd watch. A film made consensually by a husband and wife of their own sexual activities, and then voluntarily disseminated? I would label that as porn but I don't see any abuse. Ditto for a homemade (or commercial) film of a MFMFMFMF romp by the swimming pool.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that are we arguing semantics or substance? I suppose if you feel that sex is inherently degrading then my point is moot, but if you think that you have much deeper seeded issues than porn or erotica.

 

A film that portrays women being abused, hit, verbally assaulted, forced, or any other activity that is clear unadulterated abuse is one thing, a tape of people getting their freak on and enjoying themselves is quite another.

 

Your thoughts?

[lonelyandfrustrated]

To me, erotica is a mentally stimulating medium. I think of an erotic moment like the one in Pretty Woman, where she goes into the ballroom where he is playing piano, and then all you see is the kiss, his hand on her hip, then the camera pans out and you hear the keys being pressed and you know what is going on, but there's no tight film shots of the penetration. No film shots at all of it. If there had been shots of the sex with mouths on nipples, the bumping uglies, then that same scenario would have moved from an erotic moment to a pornographic one.

 

Erotica is Penthouse Letters. Porn is the photography.

 

Notice how the definition of pornography includes the phrase "exposure of genitals" while the def of erotica does not? Although the part about animals is kinda scary.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Yes, but by these definitions, it must include "sex and the exposure of genitals... AND abuse or degradation." I would conclude, therefore, that sex and genitals absent abuse or degradation is not porn.

 

But your observation led to my conundrum. By their definition, graphic depictions of "normal" sex are neither porn nor erotica, unless you leap to the conclusion (and I'm sure many do) that sex is inherently degrading.

 

The bit about animals threw me off a bit as well, I can only hope it was meant as a bit of humor, or perhaps was speaking of background "characters" in a story or film.

[lonelyandfrustrated]

Degrade means 'to lower in dignity or character'. Pretty wide field, there, and personally definable when it comes to portraying sex acts.

[tanbark813]

The definitions shouldn't contain value judgments in the first place. But if we're accepting these definitions as they stand right now, then yes, they are incomplete. There is a lot of... stuff (I guess) that wouldn't qualify as either porn or erotica according to these definitions.

[zxcirce]

The definitions shouldn't contain value judgments in the first place. But if we're accepting these definitions as they stand right now, then yes, they are incomplete. There is a lot of... stuff (I guess) that wouldn't qualify as either porn or erotica according to these definitions.

 

Exactly. To take a definition of pornography from an anti-pornography website is just asking for trouble.

[lonelyandfrustrated]

Here's the definitions from dictionary.com:

 

e·rot·i·ca –noun (used with a singular or plural verb) literature or art dealing with sexual love.

 

por·nog·ra·phy –noun obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, esp. those having little or no artistic merit.

 

Etymology:

 

Erotic: 1621 (implied in erotical), from Fr. érotique, from Gk. erotikos, from eros (gen. erotos) "sexual love" (see Eros). Eroticize is from 1914. Erotomaniac "one driven mad by passionate love" (sometimes also used in the sense of "nymphomaniac") is from 1858. Erotica (1854) is from Gk. neut. pl. of erotikos "amatory," from eros; originally a booksellers' catalogue heading.

 

Pornography:

1857, "description of prostitutes," from Fr. pornographie, from Gk. pornographos "(one) writing of prostitutes," from porne "prostitute," originally "bought, purchased" (with an original notion, probably of "female slave sold for prostitution;" related to pernanai "to sell," from PIE root per- "to traffic in, to sell," cf. L. pretium "price") + graphein "to write." Originally used of classical art and writing; application to modern examples began 1880s. Main modern meaning "salacious writing or pictures" represents a slight shift from the etymology, though classical depictions of prostitution usually had this quality.

[Jersey Shortie]

A film that portrays women being abused, hit, verbally assaulted, forced, or any other activity that is clear unadulterated abuse is one thing, a tape of people getting their freak on and enjoying themselves is quite another.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I question how many women in porn are really enjoying themselves or are doing porn because or poor circumstances. I can't hoestly believe that the majority of woman in a good position in life wants to have sex with a bunch of different men for other people's masturbation pleasure.

 

And might I remind us that the pornstars are paid to look like they are enjoy themselves, that doesn't mean they are or arne't.

 

I don't think there even has to be force or assult for it to be degrading. the mere act of using a woman only for sex is degrading in itself. It is reducing her value to only her body.

 

Does anyone believe that most porn lift women up and shows respect for them?

 

I think most of us know the answer to that.

[tanbark813]

Yes, because we all know the men in porn are highly distinguished and respected members of their communities.

[zxcirce]

I question how many women in porn are really enjoying themselves or are doing porn because or poor circumstances. I can't hoestly believe that the majority of woman in a good position in life wants to have sex with a bunch of different men for other people's masturbation pleasure.

 

How many people want to do ANYTHING for a job?

 

And might I remind us that the pornstars are paid to look like they are enjoy themselves, that doesn't mean they are or arne't.

 

The CSR at the counter is paid to be nice, too. Doesn't mean they enjoy it.

 

I don't think there even has to be force or assult for it to be degrading. the mere act of using a woman only for sex is degrading in itself. It is reducing her value to only her body.

 

Then it must be degrading to the men, too. Everyone is just bodies without souls, personalities, etc, in porn. Because porn goes NO FURTHER than sex. SEX SEX SEX. it's not about women OR MEN as people or anything else than visual stimulation.

 

Does anyone believe that most porn lift women up and shows respect for them?

 

Does working at McDonalds 40 hours a week for infinitely less than a porn star makes lift a woman up and show respect for her? Or is she further degraded for giving so much of her time for a low paying low esteemed crappy McJob? Porn is a JOB. it's WORK. it's not about degradation or respect.

 

I think most of us know the answer to that.

must lengthen post to ten characters. and done.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Exactly. To take a definition of pornography from an anti-pornography website is just asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps, but I have tried again and again and again to get someone in the anti-porn crowd to define just exactly what qualifies and porn (and is there fore degrading) and what does not. Porn covers such a wide gamut, especially considering most people (myself included) use the word equally to describe everything from pure, true erotica to the most vile of stuff that even I find indefensible.

[Jersey Shortie]

Zxcire, I don't see how anything you said inreference to my comments makes any sense or directly addresses the issues of pornography.

[sxyNYCcpl]

I can't hoestly believe that the majority of woman in a good position in life wants to have sex with a bunch of different men for other people's masturbation pleasure.

 

I personally know hundreds of such women, though they have sex for fun (swingers) not money (porn stars). Though some of the folks I've met have done some in the past, some even have their own websites.

 

And might I remind us that the pornstars are paid to look like they are enjoy themselves, that doesn't mean they are or arne't.

 

So am I. That doesn't mean that despite the fact I appear confident, knowledgeable, and seem to be having fun while in the middle of presenting to a client that I wouldn't rather be elsewhere. And what if, just what if, in some porn somewhere, they actually are. Say it's a husband and wife who get off posting videos of themselves online. That change anything for you?

 

the mere act of using a woman only for sex is degrading in itself.

 

Wouldn't the same be true of men? What about the aforementioned married couple posting homemade vids?

 

Does anyone believe that most porn lift women up and shows respect for them?

 

Yes. Me. At least some of it. Hell, the stuff I watch almost worships women. But you breezed by the whole point of the thread. Is there a difference between porn and erotica? If so, what is it? Is one okay and the other not?

[LucreziaBorgia]

I question how many women in porn are really enjoying themselves or are doing porn because or poor circumstances. I can't hoestly believe that the majority of woman in a good position in life wants to have sex with a bunch of different men for other people's masturbation pleasure.

 

There is an interesting HBO documentary called Thinking XXX, which sprung from a photo essay book called XXX: 30 Porn Star Portraits. In this documentary, the performers talked a bit about how and why they got into the business. I would have to say that the influential and successful performers have no complaints, and exude a love for sex and how they incorporate it into their 'job'. They didn't really think of it in terms of "I'm just doing this so that someone can jerk off to it." For them, it is much, much more than that. You'd have to watch the documentary to see I guess.

 

I would imagine the ones who never make it as big as these 30 did are the ones who suffer. Long hours, relatively low pay, etc.

 

That can be said of any job though, when you think about it. The top dogs have no complaints, while the little guy can do little else.

[lonelyandfrustrated]

The top dogs have no complaints, while the little guy can do little else.

 

lololol.

 

Carry on.

 

I think I've answered the original question, although I don't fall squarely into the 'anti-porn' crowd.

[zxcirce]

Zxcire, I don't see how anything you said inreference to my comments makes any sense or directly addresses the issues of pornography.

That's unfortunate. The point I'm trying to make is that you think porn stars are degraded by what they do. I'm making the point that it is their job to have sex and be sexy. Not to be intelligent, have anything to say, or do something worth "your" respect. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

You seem to infer a lot about the people who make porn and their intentions and such. Well, maybe it's just about sex. Pornography is not meant to lift ANYONE UP, to foster respect, etc. It's meant to be sex on film or in pictures. It is a job that these so-called degraded women do, and make their money.

 

Sorry if it doesn't make sense to you, it does in my head, and I get jumbly when I try to take things from my head and put them into coherent sentences.

[Jersey Shortie]

There is an interesting HBO documentary called Thinking XXX, which sprung from a photo essay book called XXX: 30 Porn Star Portraits. In this documentary, the performers talked a bit about how and why they got into the business. I would have to say that the influential and successful performers have no complaints, and exude a love for sex and how they incorporate it into their 'job'. They didn't really think of it in terms of "I'm just doing this so that someone can jerk off to it." For them, it is much, much more than that. You'd have to watch the documentary to see I guess.

 

I would imagine the ones who never make it as big as these 30 did are the ones who suffer. Long hours, relatively low pay, etc.

 

That can be said of any job though, when you think about it. The top dogs have no complaints, while the little guy can do little else.

 

Most people who get into the business don't make it big. Here is a very real statistic: the average pornstar career lasts 6 months-year. There are reasons why they only last that long. In that time, she is expected to make more progressive films. It starts with masturbation, lesbian, oral, intercourse, anal, double teamed....and so on.

 

And seriously, lets just take a look at Jenna Jaminson. She is one who made it big and she is completely messed up on a physcological issue. You can't convince me any man wants his daughter or wife or gf to be Jenna Jaminson.

 

Do I think the actors in that movie were all completely happy, healthy well adjusted individuals that they protrayed themselves as? Umm no. Who is going to buy a porno of a girl that says she was molested by her father or in high school thought the only way toget male attention was to draw attention to her sexualty. I am sure some people really do just really love sex. But so do lots of people who don't do porn. And there are many people who have been harmed by going into the business and have gone into that business because of a troubled life style.

 

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I personally know hundreds of such women, though they have sex for fun (swingers) not money (porn stars). Though some of the folks I've met have done some in the past, some even have their own websites

 

I never said women didn't like sex. I said that most normal healthy women don't want to get into porn.

 

So am I. That doesn't mean that despite the fact I appear confident, knowledgeable, and seem to be having fun while in the middle of presenting to a client that I wouldn't rather be elsewhere. And what if, just what if, in some porn somewhere, they actually are.

 

I think we can all agree that this is such a hot topic because sex, women and men are envovled. It is a certain vunerablity that you can not deny about sex. Your benign presentations to clients has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Unless you are doing these presentations naked while you perform oral on yourself.

 

Wouldn't the same be true of men?

 

I do think men objectify themselves in porn in a completely different way the women. Most porn exploits the vunerablity to the woman and her nature and body then the man.

 

 

 

Yes. Me. At least some of it. Hell, the stuff I watch almost worships women. But you breezed by the whole point of the thread. Is there a difference between porn and erotica? If so, what is it? Is one okay and the other not?

 

I believe our ideas about what it means to worship women are different. I understand why men like watching sex. I however think we live in a time where people indulge in it in every turn then justfy and excuse it. Is porn different from erotica? Maybe. Maybe not. Do most men want to see erotica or see porn?

[Jersey Shortie]

That's unfortunate. The point I'm trying to make is that you think porn stars are degraded by what they do.

 

That is correct. And I think women in general are degraded by it as well.

 

How cany any man with a woman/women in his life justify using a medium that more often then not refers to women as sluts, bitches and whores.

 

 

I'm making the point that it is their job to have sex and be sexy. Not to be intelligent, have anything to say, or do something worth "your" respect. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Then there is nothing wrong with using men for their moeny and women exploiting them for it.

 

If you can't see that there is something wrong in the way porn presents women, then i find that unfortunate.

 

You seem to infer a lot about the people who make porn and their intentions and such. Well, maybe it's just about sex. Pornography is not meant to lift ANYONE UP, to foster respect, etc. It's meant to be sex on film or in pictures. It is a job that these so-called degraded women do, and make their money.

 

SUre it is. Most porn shows men in the position of power. Most porn is about male pleasure and what he gets from the woman, not the other way around. Porn is about showcasing men in a dominate way where the women are all eager and happy to please with little regard to how much pleasure they are getting. What exactly do you think should turn a woman on about her having a woman test her gag reflex, have a penis that was just in her butt in her mouth, have a group of men on her at once... These women make money. No one argued that. So you loose me there.

[Sks]

Hmm, Of course porn is degrading to women, she is being used as an object for sex.

 

I don't see why anyone argues over that. I wouldn't want a wife, gf or daughter of mine in it.

 

The only exception is if its homemade porn with a married couple/ gf/bf or something, then its not really the same.

 

I am a hypocrite as I watch it, and I do gain pleasure from it but perhaps from a different angle then most - I am more interested in the response's from the girl then the actual sex. B/D thing......

[sxyNYCcpl]

Most people who get into the business don't make it big.

 

That's different from mainstream acting (think primetime TV) how? Or, for that matter, many normal careers.

 

Here is a very real statistic: the average pornstar career lasts 6 months-year.

 

How long do you suppose the average "mainstream" actors/actresses career lasts? When you have 2,000 people pursuing every "star" position, there'll be a lot of turnover.

 

And seriously, lets just take a look at Jenna Jaminson. She is one who made it big and she is completely messed up on a physcological issue. You can't convince me any man wants his daughter or wife or gf to be Jenna Jaminson.

 

How many times do I have to correct you until you get her name right? Are you messing it up intentionally?? It's Jenna Jameson. She's my wife's favorite pornstar. She's still in the business, still making money from porn, still hot, and now you know a man who would have no problem with his wife being like her. In fact, I have posted pictures of my wife acting like JJ online (most assuradely with her permission) proudly.

 

Do I think the actors in that movie were all completely happy, healthy well adjusted individuals that they protrayed themselves as? Umm no.

 

You suppose that might apply to mainstream actors as well? And, for what it's worth, your continued mangling of the English language does neither yourself nor your cause any favors.

 

I never said women didn't like sex. I said that most normal healthy women don't want to get into porn.

 

No, that's not what you said. You said that "most normal healthy women" wouldn't want to have sex with multiple men for fun, and I pointed out that I knew hundreds of women who did, in fact, wish to do so on a regular basis.

 

I think we can all agree that this is such a hot topic because sex, women and men are envovled. It is a certain vunerablity that you can not deny about sex.

 

No, we cannot. Sex is just sex. It's your ilk that makes it such a big deal.

 

Your benign presentations to clients has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Unless you are doing these presentations naked while you perform oral on yourself.

 

Your point was that performers in porn were (imgaine this) putting on an act, and that meant that porn was by definition, evil. I pointed out the foibles in your argument and you want to change your position. It doesn't work that way.

 

I like being naked, I dislike wearing clothes, the only reason I do so is that society demands it, and during certain times of the year, so does mother nature. Believe me, if I could perform oral on myself I'd probably never leave the house. (Though I have to credit my wife for that line, for she is in fact the original author of that.)

 

I do think men objectify themselves in porn in a completely different way the women. Most porn exploits the vunerablity to the woman and her nature and body then the man.

 

Oh, please. You've said some stupid-ass stuff on this board before, this has got to take the cake. You hate men. You hate sex. I get it, I'm not going to change it, I don't care if I do, and it doesn't affect me either way. But you're in denial that only you don't realize.

 

I believe our ideas about what it means to worship women are different. I understand why men like watching sex. I however think we live in a time where people indulge in it in every turn then justfy and excuse it. Is porn different from erotica? Maybe. Maybe not. Do most men want to see erotica or see porn?

 

I haven't got a clue, as you have continuously refused to quantify exactly what you refer to. I gave you a list, twice, you blew it off. I've asked directly, you blew it off. I gave you a fellow porn-haters definition, you didn't address it. Until you're ready to tell us exactly, explicitly, what's porn, what's not, what's acceptable, what's not, then arguing with you is not much different than beating ones head against a brick wall.

[sxyNYCcpl]

How cany any man with a woman/women in his life justify using a medium that more often then not refers to women as sluts, bitches and whores.

 

How many times do I have to ask you this before you answer, but just exactly WTF kind of porn are you watching? I can count on one hand (and that's being generous) the number of times I've seen what you refer to in the porn I watch.

 

Most porn shows men in the position of power. Most porn is about male pleasure and what he gets from the woman, not the other way around.

 

Really? Really?? Not from my experience. In fact, as I like girl-girl porn, a lot of what I watch has no men in it at all, in a position of power or otherwise. Ruh-roh, what does that mean?

 

What exactly do you think should turn a woman on about her having a woman test her gag reflex, have a penis that was just in her butt in her mouth, have a group of men on her at once... These women make money. No one argued that. So you loose me there.

 

I've never once seen what you've described here. Nor have I experienced it. Yes, my wife likes taking it up the butt from time to time, but when we do that we use condoms (for my protection, as it's easy to get a bladder infection). We've never done ATM, as you've implied, it's not a realistic thing, though she does like having multiple men (and women) to play with from time to time. It's not an everyday thing, to be sure, but when it does happen everyone involved has a great time.

 

As for her gag reflex, despite the fact that I'm (ahem) a bit larger than the average camper, that's never been a problem. But I fail to see the connection to porn or erotica.

[Jersey Shortie]

Oh, please. You've said some stupid-ass stuff on this board before, this has got to take the cake. You hate men. You hate sex. I get it, I'm not going to change it, I don't care if I do, and it doesn't affect me either way. But you're in denial that only you don't realize.

 

 

 

And what evidence do you that backs up your bs that I hate men and hate sex?

 

I am a hypocrite as I watch it, and I do gain pleasure from it but perhaps from a different angle then most - I am more interested in the response's from the girl then the actual sex. B/D thing......

 

Wonderful. You realize it's degrading to women yet you still view it and support it.

[sxyNYCcpl]

And what evidence do you that backs up your bs that I hate men and hate sex? .

 

The fact that you think women who like porn do so for less "evil" reasons than men explains why you hate men.

 

The fact that you refuse to tell us what's "porn fantasy" vs. "normal reality" despite having claimed that you're a freak in bed convinces me that it's the sex itself that you have a problem with.

[Sks]

And what evidence do you that backs up your bs that I hate men and hate sex?

 

Wonderful. You realize it's degrading to women yet you still view it and support it.

 

Yes, because it doesn't damage me and doesn't effect me. I could not watch a porn movie being filmed though, it would make me feel bad.

 

But with porn, all I see is what is filmed. I gain pleasure at the expense of others, but its not like I directly cause it. Its indirect.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I dunno about the degrading part. I'm not sure what porn you are watching, Jersey - do you have any titles or examples?

 

I watch a lot of porn both professional and amateur, and I've not seen anything that could be construed as 'degrading'. The only degrading stuff I have seen is the fringe stuff: Max Hardcore, for example. The ones that don't make it to the top rung in the business do tend to gravitate toward shock stuff, and burn out quicker, because they are subjected to lower standards, longer hours, and they don't get a lot of say over what positions and types of scenes they do.

 

The popular stuff like Pirates (my personal favorite) isn't degrading, and the women in the film have said on and off camera that they love their jobs, love working with their co-workers, and are proud of their careers. We are talking high dollar stuff here, complete with yearly highly competitive award ceremonies. I don't see any 'six month-ers' in that bunch. Many of the women have been doing it for years, a few for decades, and when they retire - they form their own studios, marketing porn that appeals to women.

 

Do they do it because they are abused and can't help themselves? I dunno - I'm more inclined to go with what Jesse Jane says when asked about her extremely lucrative career: I do it because I love to f*ck!

 

Some women really do like being porn stars. She is only one of many.