The Porn Argument: Are we discussing the same thing?

[LucreziaBorgia]

if you were a tall blond with nice boobs, you don't think tall blonds with nice boobs would turn you on because you are one? I find a little inconsistency in saying you love how you look, wouldn't want to change it but aren't even attracted to other women who look like you.

 

I dunno. I'm not a tall blonde with nice boobs, so I couldn't really say. I can only speak for what I'm attracted to under my present circumstance. I'm sure some people are attracted to people who are similar in looks to themselves, but some aren't. Finding a different type attractive while being confident about your own looks isn't inconsistent. I am confident about how I look. I just don't find my own type attractive sexually. Perhaps I'm one of those 'opposites attract' people. That doesn't mean that I dislike my own looks.

 

 

 

I do wonder if you really would trade your looks to look more like what you like.

 

Nah. I like my looks, and my H and my 'boy toys' (as he calls them - my 'friend guy fan club') like me just like I am. I've not had much trouble in that department. If I were different, I wouldn't have the experiences that I have had in my life. I honestly wouldn't change it. As much as I love looking at say... Kiera Knightly I wouldn't want to be her or look like her. I wouldn't be me.

 

I am sorry but there is no rational way you can have porn, with all types of women and NEVER expect that a man does infact rather be with whatever flavor he is looking at over the woman that loves him.

 

My H and nearly every man out there would beg to differ. Watching a woman in a porn doesn't mean that he would rather have the porn girl. I'm not sure how many more times men have to reiterate that to you.

 

Why would he feel threated by other women? Sorry but your situation isn't the same as what most women encounter. You aren't sitting there comparing him to other men. It seems like you prefer looking at women over men. There is nothing for him to compete against.

 

Why would he feel threatened? Because I don't see women as just living, breathing, sex toys that are only something you do when you get bored with being straight. I have the potential to have actual relationships with women. That potential would be threatening to anyone, wouldn't you say? Not him, though. He is confident and secure. Just like I am. Neither one of us has trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality. He doesn't feel the need to compete, because like me - he finds the idea that someone would feel the need to 'compete' with masturbation material absurd.

 

It is 100% natural for women to compare themselves to other women... All the while [men are] looking and lusting and wanting after other women.

 

It is as natural for men to notice other women (though many don't 'lust and want' after them as you say - they just notice and appreciate them) as it is for women to compare themselves to other women. It would seem for you that the natural thing for women is acceptable, but the natural thing for men isn't.

 

What do you think that fantasizing about something means you don't want it? And wouldn't take it if offered?

 

I see fantasy as indulging in something that you like to think about, but wouldn't necessarily want in real life. I fantasize about all sorts of crazy BDSM stuff, about zipless f*cks with people I know, etc. That doesn't mean I want to build a dungeon in my spare room, or have actual affairs with people I fantasize about. It is just a safe way to explore and tap into part of my mind. I think for most people that is what it is like. I don't think you'll find very many men who will agree with you. Men will tell it like I did - that while they enjoy watching porn, they wouldn't actually trade in their girlfriends or wives for those girls.

 

Fantasizing, means you want it on some level. What you, and most men fail to realize that yeah, it's natural for men to like porn. I don't argue that. But it's natural and normal for a woman to feel hurt and threatened by it. Especially when he is seeking out something you arne't. That speaks volumes.

 

It is unfortunate that women feel hurt and threatened by something that has nothing to do with them. Masturbation is a personal and private thing. Men don't do it out of spite, or as a replacement, or anything like that. It is a very simple matter of filling the spank bank. Nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know. When a man masturbates to something, why do women feel a need to assign that some deep psychological meaning or feel that is has something to do with their own perceived inadequacies?

 

The Pro-porn fundamentlists don't appreciate the value of one person, and learning to please them and engage in playful sex with just them. Instead of needing other aids to feel fullfilled sexually. You talk about imagination. But porn has nothing to do with real imagination. You are copy cating what you see. That's not playfullness or imagination. You are buying into what some porn producer told you what he thought was sexy.

 

You do realize that a man's sex life and a man's masturbation life are separate, right? Pleasing a woman, and engaging in playful sex and masturbating aren't mutually exclusive. When he's with you, he's turned on by you. When he's with himself in his own private masturbation fantasies - then other things turn him on.

 

Are you saying that when a man is in a relationship, that nothing should turn him on but the woman he is with? I'm sure that would be ideal for a good deal of women, but unfortunately men aren't wired like that. Even if a man doesn't watch or like porn - he will still see attractive women around him and indulge in a little 'what if' from time to time.

[soserious1]

I do love how I look, but I can't honestly say that looking in the mirror at myself turns me on. Nor would looking at a woman in my demographic or fitting my description would turn me on (though, I'd have to admit that if I got to know her then there might be things about her that turn me on) but from a 100% superficial standpoint: I have a type. Certain types of women turn me on - dark hair, elfin features, petite, pale skin, small breasts... etc. I'm a tall, athletically built redhead. Not my own type, unfortunately. That doesn't mean I dislike myself or wish I could trade myself in to look like someone else.

 

Nor does it mean that I watch girls like that in porn and wish... "man I wish I could get rid of my H and D so that I could be with her." That is absolutely absurd! All it means is that I get to watch something that taps a part of my brain and sexual psyche that doesn't otherwise get tapped. H has no problem with my preferences. It has never affected what we have, and he has never felt threatened by anything I watch. I've never felt threatened by his 'young Asian chick' porn either.

 

 

 

Why do you think that fantasizing about something means you want it, or wouldn't say no if offered it?

 

I fantasize about all sorts of sexual things and situations with people that have no place in my real life, nor would I want to introduce them into my real life.

 

 

So you don't find old, wrinkled women who are scarred and marked by pregnancy or surgery anymore sexually appealing than men do ?

 

Why do we keep dancing around the issue here, why can't we just flat out say the truth.

 

Next to young,firm,toned and tight bodied women, the vast majority of women 45 and over look like crap. Young faces and bodies are much more visually appealing to both sexes. If you're old, a man might bone you but chances are good he's got to prime the pump with some porn or in thinking about the young hottie he saw at the gym today, in order to even get an erection.

 

Btw, I agree with you, I don't find middle aged women to be erotically appealing in the slightest. Why are we all so afraid to just say the truth that when it comes to sex, youth is the visual turn on and age is a visual turn off?

 

What would you say, if after many failed attempts at sex, your husband came to you and said lovingly, quietly

LucreziaBorgia, I love you more than life itself but I simply can't perform with you, I've tried and tried but your body has changed into something so far away from the physical type that gets me aroused that I just can't do it. What would you say to that?

[LucreziaBorgia]

LucreziaBorgia, I love you more than life itself but I simply can't perform with you, I've tried and tried but your body has changed into something so far away from the physical type that gets me aroused that I just can't do it. What would you say to that?

 

If someone I was with actually did tell me this, I'd say back (honest to the gods) gently and lovingly...

 

"ok, we can end the sexual part of our relationship" and would call any one of more than a few people out there who would be glad to have some 'no strings' fun. H and I have never really had a traditional relationship, so it wouldn't be unheard of for that to happen, I guess.

 

Stuff like this doesn't get me down, really. I've looked worse over the past year than most people have ever looked in their lives, and it didn't slow me down at all sexually speaking.

[electric_sheep]

I question how many women in porn are really enjoying themselves or are doing porn because or poor circumstances. I can't hoestly believe that the majority of woman in a good position in life wants to have sex with a bunch of different men for other people's masturbation pleasure.

 

You haven't seen or read many interviews then with a lot of todays porn stars. The days of stigma and abuse are largely over. Plenty of todays adult stars powerfully and articulately defend their profession.

 

Now, you could say that they have been "brainwashed" or are confused by societal/environmental/cultural phenomenon, but that's a dicey argument. After all, it could be applied to virtually anything and everything in society... like why people go to church.

[electric_sheep]

Btw, I agree with you, I don't find middle aged women to be erotically appealing in the slightest. Why are we all so afraid to just say the truth that when it comes to sex, youth is the visual turn on and age is a visual turn off?

 

I think it's entirely possible that the things that one finds sexually attractive change over time. Men are known for being very visual, but it's possible this might shift slightly with age. Older men may be less visually stimulated and more tactile, or cerebral. The libido itself changes, that is for sure.

 

I'm not even saying one way is better than another, but the sort of high importance that many younger men put on looks may change and diminish.

 

Consider too that having a vigorous and exciting sex life itself may diminish in importance for people as they age. Comfort, security, and conversation may become far more important than sex.

 

 

As for pornography, some people suggest that what is originally culturally enforced (youth, thinness), may become physically and psychologically enforced with continued use of pornography. Guys who look at pornography and regularly masturbate are essentially associating a positive reward with the viewing of a particular body type.

 

We may be able to condition ourselves to like other body types in this manner. Interesting. It would be sort of like conditioning yourself to like broccoli if you didn't.

 

I'm not saying we should! I'm just saying it's possible.

[soconfused01]

my two cents: I think that the issue of porn is very complicated because it's true that many women in the sex biz are there because of what someone said earlier, they were abused or think the only way to get attention is by their sexuality and it's true there are women who do it for healthy reasons. The lens of even softcore porn can and does see women as only three holes. And some do not. The porn industry is so huge and lots of it underground or amatuer, it's impossible to speak in generalities about porn being good or bad.

Ideally, we should have what I like to call "free range porn" when you have psych evals of each actor before you make a film, so you know you're not watching some chick get boned cause daddy did it to her when she was 11. but we don't live in an ideal world, and a system like that would never work on a wide scale.

 

so I guess everyone should give a care enough to do their own research into what they're patronising and not turn a blind eye because it's inconvienient.

 

lots of this discussion reminds me of vegetarianism debates. sure, some animals are killed in a cruel way, and others don't see it coming. but do you patronize the whole industry and hope you're not furthering cruelty, or do you buy free range? hence my term.

 

it would be cool if someone compiled a website of porn titles, detailed descriptions, and tried to get an honest background of the emotional health of the people involved. most people don't want to exploit other people.

[Mr. Lucky]

As for pornography, some people suggest that what is originally culturally enforced (youth, thinness), may become physically and psychologically enforced with continued use of pornography. Guys who look at pornography and regularly masturbate are essentially associating a positive reward with the viewing of a particular body type.

 

We may be able to condition ourselves to like other body types in this manner. Interesting. It would be sort of like conditioning yourself to like broccoli if you didn't.

If Jersey had her way, she'd limit us all to masturbating to pictures of broccoli ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[soserious1]

If someone I was with actually did tell me this, I'd say back (honest to the gods) gently and lovingly...

 

"ok, we can end the sexual part of our relationship" and would call any one of more than a few people out there who would be glad to have some 'no strings' fun. H and I have never really had a traditional relationship, so it wouldn't be unheard of for that to happen, I guess.

 

Stuff like this doesn't get me down, really. I've looked worse over the past year than most people have ever looked in their lives, and it didn't slow me down at all sexually speaking.

 

and you could remain,totally loving and giving,doing all the normal wifely things, sacrificing for your husband's comfort.. all the while knowing that he found your body to be visually repulsive ?

 

You're a better woman than I am. I offered my husband the open marriage option,he refused but even if he'd accepted we'd have divorced anyway

because every time I'd look at him his words would be ringing in my ears.

[Ruby Slippers]

You haven't seen or read many interviews then with a lot of todays porn stars. The days of stigma and abuse are largely over. Plenty of todays adult stars powerfully and articulately defend their profession.

 

Now, you could say that they have been "brainwashed" or are confused by societal/environmental/cultural phenomenon, but that's a dicey argument. After all, it could be applied to virtually anything and everything in society... like why people go to church.

I think this is naive, and not true. A friend of mine is a stripper, and some of her stripper friends are involved in the sex industry at varying levels, up to and including porn. These are not happy and well-adjusted women. Most of them see the sex industry as an easy route to a lot of money, but quickly learn that it carries a significant price. These women are very defensive in the face of attacks by judgmental people, and will flaunt their "glamourous" lifestyles in defensiveness, but most of them admit to their real friends that the lifestyle is pretty dark and grimy.

 

I have seen a serious downward spiral in my friend, though she is stubborn and won't be talked out of it. I think she's going to have to hit rock bottom, which is sad. These women are being used, treated like sex objects, and degraded (while they use men and treat them like walking ATMs). That kind of environment is not healthy, and does not attract healthy-minded people.

 

Another thing that I think so many men are completely unaware of is that the vast majority of sex workers do NOT enjoy what they're doing. They're completely faking it, for the most part, and men believe it because they want to believe it. They might enjoy it somewhat at first, for the attention, validation, and novelty, but that quickly wears off, and it becomes a competition to be the best pretender, the one most effective at separating oblivious men from their money.

[Taramere]

and you could remain,totally loving and giving,doing all the normal wifely things, sacrificing for your husband's comfort.. all the while knowing that he found your body to be visually repulsive ?

 

You're a better woman than I am. I offered my husband the open marriage option,he refused but even if he'd accepted we'd have divorced anyway

because every time I'd look at him his words would be ringing in my ears.

 

Your marriage must have been a real one-way street, soserious. I'm sure that was really difficult, but I'd urge you to try not to project your insecurities onto other women. I might be out of line saying this, but LB has just emerged successfully from an extremely testing period in her life. I think her courage and genuine positivity of spirit, through some testing times, has been inspirational to a lot of people. I'd also venture that the spirit it takes for a person to sustain courage, positivity and a balanced grasp of reality (harsh or otherwise) in testing times would be more attractive to some people than a perfect 20 year old figure.

 

Admittedly your experiences of men might not equip you to see that, which might be why you're projecting your own self-loathing/fear of the ageing process onto other women. I'd also venture that this miserable outlook you have reflects very poorly on you as a woman and as a human being....and that a joyless approach to life (on your part) may have been more of a motivating factor than the impact of time on your appearance as regards your husband leaving you

 

Yes, you had a marriage breakdown, and yes life can suck at times...but here's one way of making it suck less. Stop this tireless endeavour to infect others with your misery and bitterness about men. People might start to enjoy your company. Some of the people who start to enjoy your company might even be male. Others will begin to think you have something other than grim resignation to take to the party, and they might start to admire your courage and spirit rather than simply feel a combination of pity and revulsion whenever they read your posts. Perhaps it's time to think seriously about becoming a better woman.

 

Assuming you're for real, of course, and you're not some guy who - for whatever reason - gets his jollies from assuming the role of a cast-off wife.

[LucreziaBorgia]

and you could remain,totally loving and giving,doing all the normal wifely things, sacrificing for your husband's comfort.. all the while knowing that he found your body to be visually repulsive ?

 

Sure. We'd find a way to make it mutually beneficial and neither would have to sacrifice anything. It would be worth it to me to put aside hurt feelings for the betterment of our overall situation. Plus I'd get to date.

[Mr. Lucky]

Stop this tireless endeavour to infect others with your misery and bitterness about men. People might start to enjoy your company. Some of the people who start to enjoy your company might even be male. Others will begin to think you have something other than grim resignation to take to the party, and they might start to admire your courage and spirit rather than simply feel a combination of pity and revulsion whenever they read your posts. Perhaps it's time to think seriously about becoming a better woman.

Well said, Taramere. I'm amazed at the need of a few select posters to export their anger and unhappiness to others here at the Shack. When someone posts "I'm facing this challenge with my husband...", I'm not sure how the reply "What does it matter, he'll just f*ck you over anyway" is designed to help . You'd think after a while, people would tire of being so unhappy and decide to do something positive about it...

 

Mr. Lucky

[soserious1]

Your marriage must have been a real one-way street, soserious. I'm sure that was really difficult, but I'd urge you to try not to project your insecurities onto other women. I might be out of line saying this, but LB has just emerged successfully from an extremely testing period in her life. I think her courage and genuine positivity of spirit, through some testing times, has been inspirational to a lot of people. I'd also venture that the spirit it takes for a person to sustain courage, positivity and a balanced grasp of reality (harsh or otherwise) in testing times would be more attractive to some people than a perfect 20 year old figure.

 

Admittedly your experiences of men might not equip you to see that, which might be why you're projecting your own self-loathing/fear of the ageing process onto other women. I'd also venture that this miserable outlook you have reflects very poorly on you as a woman and as a human being....and that a joyless approach to life (on your part) may have been more of a motivating factor than the impact of time on your appearance as regards your husband leaving you

 

Yes, you had a marriage breakdown, and yes life can suck at times...but here's one way of making it suck less. Stop this tireless endeavour to infect others with your misery and bitterness about men. People might start to enjoy your company. Some of the people who start to enjoy your company might even be male. Others will begin to think you have something other than grim resignation to take to the party, and they might start to admire your courage and spirit rather than simply feel a combination of pity and revulsion whenever they read your posts. Perhaps it's time to think seriously about becoming a better woman.

 

Assuming you're for real, of course, and you're not some guy who - for whatever reason - gets his jollies from assuming the role of a cast-off wife.

 

you have no idea what I was like, the kind of person I was before almost 4 years of a sexless marriage with every excuse under the sun being handed to me as to the reasons for this. I lost weight,gained weight,changed my hair color 3 times, joined a gym and lifted weights.. all at his suggestion and urging.I bought toys, lingere,I got piercings, I did everything he asked and more, I was not serious and joyless and I resent your implication that it was my revulsion with my own aging that caused my husband to literally want to vomit when he saw me naked!

 

The "miserable outlook" I have is the result of several years of a sexless marriage culminating in being told straight out that I'm too old,too wrinkled,too scarred up to fsck and that the sight of my aging face and repulsive body made the man want to throw up. Now I get to pay him alimony, if he'd have cut to the chase and not put me thru years of misery trying to please him and meet his physical ideals, I'd be a LOT happier right now. Joy? that pretty much got sucked right out of me.

 

As far as men go, I don't need or want another in my life, I want sex,hot,hard,raw sex without strings, I want men who will do me in every orifice I've got without boring me with their tales of woe. I want sex, I'm not interested in a relationship. Sorry but I've been "a better woman" and all it got me was an empty wallet and a gutted heart and a year of sleeping on the sofa in a house I paid for. I'm not interested in doing it again.

[Taramere]

you have no idea what I was like, the kind of person I was before almost 4 years of a sexless marriage with every excuse under the sun being handed to me as to the reasons for this. I lost weight,gained weight,changed my hair color 3 times, joined a gym and lifted weights.. all at his suggestion and urging.I bought toys, lingere,I got piercings, I did everything he asked and more, I was not serious and joyless and I resent your implication that it was my revulsion with my own aging that caused my husband to literally want to vomit when he saw me naked!

 

The "miserable outlook" I have is the result of several years of a sexless marriage culminating in being told straight out that I'm too old,too wrinkled,too scarred up to fsck and that the sight of my aging face and repulsive body made the man want to throw up. Now I get to pay him alimony, if he'd have cut to the chase and not put me thru years of misery trying to please him and meet his physical ideals, I'd be a LOT happier right now. Joy? that pretty much got sucked right out of me.

 

Okay. I'm sorry you had such a miserable marriage. Your ex-husband sounds like every woman's nightmare....but do you honestly think that his behaviour is typical of the average guy? Are most men so lacking in empathy and humanity that they would tell their wife that the physical symptoms of her ageing want to make him throw up?

 

That is just not normal human behaviour. It's not behaviour that other people provoke by being too old, not pretty enough or physically imperfect. The person who treats others as inhumanely as that has something badly wrong within. I can appreciate that if you spent years of your life with a man like that, then it's probably had some pretty devastating effects.

 

As far as men go, I don't need or want another in my life, I want sex,hot,hard,raw sex without strings, I want men who will do me in every orifice I've got without boring me with their tales of woe. I want sex, I'm not interested in a relationship. Sorry but I've been "a better woman" and all it got me was an empty wallet and a gutted heart and a year of sleeping on the sofa in a house I paid for. I'm not interested in doing it again.

 

By better woman, I don't mean being a sap who gets walked all over and spends her entire life trying to anticipate and be whatever men want. I mean being someone who has an identity that's something a bit more than just her reflection in male eyes. A personality and an outlook that's something a bit more than a kneejerk reaction to her perceptions about who men are and what they want. Right now there's no sense of a "you" coming through in your posts. Just someone who feels screwed over and is making the very big mistake of equating hardness and coldness with strength.

 

It's not strength. It's weakness of the worst type. Shutting down emotionally so that nobody can hurt you is nothing more than an admission that you've been hurt beyond repair. What I'm saying is that if you have been hurt beyond repair, then you're in no position to give anyone realistic advice as to how they should "realistically" view themselves.

 

In this thread, you've effectively used misogynistic discourse to encourage women over forty-five to view their bodies in a very negative light....presumably on the basis that as you yourself are a woman over forty-five, then you think it's okay to do that.

 

I don't think it is okay. I realise you've been burned and I'm sorry about that....but it doesn't give you a free pass to project all those negative messages you've chosen to absorb onto other women. Essentially you've come on here and encouraged other women to view their physical selves in the most negative light possible (using porn actresses in comparison). You call that outlook realistic. I call it the result of giving your entire self image over to other people (including your ex husband) to do whatever damaging thing they want to do to it.

 

When someone posts "I'm facing this challenge with my husband...", I'm not sure how the reply "What does it matter, he'll just f*ck you over anyway" is designed to help

 

Exactly.

[grogster]

soserious it's as if you're channeling the ex and projecting his contempt, hostility and ageist misogyny onto middle age women. A Misogynistic Stockholm Syndrome?

 

I don't know what is worse: being rejected and spurned for one's appearance or making a huge inductive leap (from that bad experience) that all men prefer youth and beauty.

 

That's crap. The best erotic relationship I ever had was with a 53 year old woman who looked her chronological age. We had a marvelous time. In contrast, I've been with women who, while substantially more attractive, didn't know what to do with what they had. Boring.

 

When it comes to sexual chemistry there are no Universals--just individual differences. One horridly bad relationship does not demonstrate any Universal Law of Sexual Attraction or Rejection.

 

Soserious, your husband was an extremely cruel ******* , and your marriage was toxic.

 

I don't know what you look like, but, right now, your dark, despairing cynicism is, by far, the ugliest thing about you.

 

Lighten up.

[Ruby Slippers]

soserious it's as if you're channeling the ex and projecting his contempt, hostility and ageist misogyny onto middle age women. A Misogynistic Stockholm Syndrome?

 

I don't know what is worse: being rejected and spurned for one's appearance or making a huge inductive leap (from that bad experience) that all men prefer youth and beauty.

 

That's crap. The best erotic relationship I ever had was with a 53 year old woman who looked her chronological age. We had a marvelous time. In contrast, I've been with women who, while substantially more attractive, didn't know what to do with what they had. Boring.

 

When it comes to sexual chemistry there are no Universals--just individual differences. One horridly bad relationship does not demonstrate any Universal Law of Sexual Attraction or Rejection.

 

Soserious, your husband was an extremely cruel ******* , and your marriage was toxic.

 

I don't know what you look like, but, right now, your dark, despairing cynicism is, by far, the ugliest thing about you.

 

Lighten up.

Totally agree. Your ex infected you with negativity. You need to get all that out of your system. It's not going to happen overnight, but you can do it with time.

[electric_sheep]

I think this is naive, and not true. A friend of mine is a stripper, and some of her stripper friends are involved in the sex industry at varying levels, up to and including porn. These are not happy and well-adjusted women. Most of them see the sex industry as an easy route to a lot of money, but quickly learn that it carries a significant price. These women are very defensive in the face of attacks by judgmental people, and will flaunt their "glamourous" lifestyles in defensiveness, but most of them admit to their real friends that the lifestyle is pretty dark and grimy.

 

I have seen a serious downward spiral in my friend, though she is stubborn and won't be talked out of it. I think she's going to have to hit rock bottom, which is sad. These women are being used, treated like sex objects, and degraded (while they use men and treat them like walking ATMs). That kind of environment is not healthy, and does not attract healthy-minded people.

 

Another thing that I think so many men are completely unaware of is that the vast majority of sex workers do NOT enjoy what they're doing. They're completely faking it, for the most part, and men believe it because they want to believe it. They might enjoy it somewhat at first, for the attention, validation, and novelty, but that quickly wears off, and it becomes a competition to be the best pretender, the one most effective at separating oblivious men from their money.

 

I mean, I agree, the whole issue is very complicated. But, there are "problems" that some people may find with your line of reasoning:

 

1)

You're essentially negating the possibility that a woman could enjoy this line of work, or at least you are implying that it is highly unlikely. It's interesting to note that most of these arguments are sexist in the sense that people rarely question a guy motives. Granted, to most guys it's simply a job, and they probably get quite bored with it, and just do it for the money. Still, there is rarely the assumption that a guy must have had a screwed up childhood or be in an emotional "downward" spiral. By making the argument that these conditions must exist for the women involved in the industry you are essentially limiting the available sexual expression of women. You are reinforcing the stereotype that women must feel an emotional connection to have sex, and if not, then clearly there must be something psychologically wrong with them!

 

2)

You're making a value/judgment call about sex work itself, and sex, for that matter, by paying "special" attention to this type of work. No one is concerned with the lady who takes your money at the toll booth, or the 30 year old Mexican guy washing your car at the car wash. We don't wonder about their childhood, or their psychological make up, or condemn them for washing cars just for the money. The only reason there is outrage at the porn industry is because we give sex special status, and we expect others to somewhat agree with our view of sexuality. We are uneasy and concerned when we see someone who doesn't accept our view of it. At least we are if it's a girl. If it's a guy, it's all good. Once again, we are differentiating guys/girls and their allowed gender roles/expressions. Isn't this the definition of sexism?

 

 

I think what I just said is ultimately the truth, though I do agree it's an oversimplification in the sense that it requires one to take off our cultural "blinders", which I admit is difficult to do.

 

I guess the real question is, are we entitled to enforce our attitudes about sex on others? If not, is there some way to "screen out" people based on their intentions and past experiences? This would sort of be analogous to denying alcoholics the right to drink. It seems like a difficult proposition. The analogy is a pretty good one too, because you'll note we do allow drinking even though some people may abuse it, and some people may have turned to alcohol because their dad beat the crap out of them when they were kids.

 

I advocate porn because:

1)

I'm uncomfortable with imposing a particular viewpoint of consensual sexuality on anyone, and I acknowledge that there is a full spectrum of viewpoints, all equally valid, though I may not agree with some of them.

 

2)

I don't think it's feasible or possible to deny freedoms across the board because some people harm themselves or abuse the freedom. I particularly don't believe in doing this when the "harm" is largely psychological. In cases where their is ALWAYS harm I may be persuaded (e.g., using PCP). But, plenty of people (guys and girls) just make a quick buck in the porn industry and move on. It's not societies job to second guess peoples intentions in doing what they are doing.

 

Having said all that, I don't necessarily "like" the porn industry. I don't think it's making any great contribution to our society or anything. That's the thing about freedom though, you have to take the bad with the good.

[Jersey Shortie]

LucreziaBorgia

If I were different, I wouldn't have the experiences that I have had in my life. I honestly wouldn't change it. As much as I love looking at say... Kiera Knightly I wouldn't want to be her or look like her. I wouldn't be me.

 

 

I really don't understand what your life experienes have to do with this topic. You like yourself as you are and that's a good thing. But there is no saying that you wouldn't like yourself if you looked different, if you really want to dive deep into such a conversation. We are all who we are for whatever reasons. That doesn't make other women any less interesting to men who have gfs or wives.

 

And who would want to look like Skelator... I mean Kiera Knightly anyway.

 

 

My H and nearly every man out there would beg to differ. Watching a woman in a porn doesn't mean that he would rather have the porn girl. I'm not sure how many more times men have to reiterate that to you.

 

Yeah, I am sure *sometimes* it doesn't mean he wants the porn girl. Just like I am sure that there are those other times that he does. You want to make it seem like a man would *never* want to be with another woman, especially one he is watching in a sexual situation in a porno, and that makes no sense. And seriously, the answers that I have gotten from men go between "I wouldn't want that porn girl".."of course a man would want that porn girl". So I think that this "reiteration" isn't that clear to begin with because men don't even seem to be clear on it themselves.

 

 

Why would he feel threatened? Because I don't see women as just living, breathing, sex toys that are only something you do when you get bored with being straight. I have the potential to have actual relationships with women. That potential would be threatening to anyone, wouldn't you say? Not him, though. He is confident and secure. Just like I am. Neither one of us has trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality. He doesn't feel the need to compete, because like me - he finds the idea that someone would feel the need to 'compete' with masturbation material absurd.

 

And yet, millions of women each day do infact compete with masturbation material. Not so absurd. And you don't even believe it to be that absurd or you wouldn't get lured into these discussions.

 

I love when people throw out the line that because they enjoy porn, or sexual media of the like variety, that they some how are the ones that can "distinguish between fantasy and reality". Let me be the one to reitierate now. I am perfectly able to distingush between fantasy and reality. I believe most people are able to distingush between fantasy and reality. I however don't think that stops men from wanting what they see in the fantasy to be real on some level. Millions of men around the world use jack-off material in conjecture with their real life relationships of over inflated unrealistic protrayls of women who are often degraded.

 

As far as being threatened, I think that most men don't feel as threatned, and even encourage, lesbian activities between women. I don't think another woman offers the same threat that another man does, for most men. Maybe not for your husband but then your husband isn't most men is he? He is one man. But from my experience, when it comes to other men, most men are just insecure as women can be when it comes to other women.

 

 

It is as natural for men to notice other women (though many don't 'lust and want' after them as you say - they just notice and appreciate them) as it is for women to compare themselves to other women. It would seem for you that the natural thing for women is acceptable, but the natural thing for men isn't.

 

Most men DO lust and want and less often *just* notice and appreciate. And I think a woman is kidding herself thinking that a man is noticing another attractive woman and his thoughts are pure and respectful and aren't thinking about her in a sexual manner. I'd like to hear it from a man that most men don't lust or want. But I have never once ever heard a man say such a thing.

 

ANd I don't think the natural thing for woman is acceptable. I think there are certain "natural" feelings we have that we should control. But if men are going to indulge themselves, I see no reason not to indulge myself.

 

 

What do you think that fantasizing about something means you don't want it? And wouldn't take it if offered?

 

I see fantasy as indulging in something that you like to think about, but wouldn't necessarily want in real life.

 

Like screwing your babysitter? Or the school girl? So it's okay for our husbands and boyfriends to hink about these things as long as they don't do them? It's okay if your grown husband is having fantasizes about your children's babysitter? Nice to know though right. A woman has a man's children, grows older with him and men make porn of school girls and babysitters. So I guess on some level there are many men out there that really enjoy that little fantasy.

 

I really don't think most people have fantasies that they don't want to indulge in on some level. Hence the reason so many men want to act out things they do infact see in porn with their own partner. That's about wanting to live out the fantasy. And many men often want to do that.

 

 

I fantasize about all sorts of crazy BDSM stuff, about zipless f*cks with people I know, etc. That doesn't mean I want to build a dungeon in my spare room, or have actual affairs with people I fantasize about. It is just a safe way to explore and tap into part of my mind. I think for most people that is what it is like. I don't think you'll find very many men who will agree with you. Men will tell it like I did - that while they enjoy watching porn, they wouldn't actually trade in their girlfriends or wives for those girls.

 

You don't think you will find many men who will agree with me ? Then why do so many men want their wives/gfs to dress up as a particular fantasy? or do things they see in porn and act them out with their partner? I think you would be suprised by how many men do infact want to live out their fantasies. And men tell it like it is to other men. When it comes to women, and when it comes to porn, men are no more clear about wher they stand then women.

 

So men get the best of both worlds. They get a whole fantasy world where they can trade in their woman for those 5 mintues and indulge themselves in the porn. Then they can turn to their woman who are suppose to be by their side despite the fact that he was probably watching 18 year old Candy get it on. And then next time you have sex with him, he can image Candy and her tight body because that's what he *really* wants. And as a woman, you are suppose to smile, act like he is so wonderful when he is really cutting yoru heart out with a knife because porn is very important to most men.

 

It is unfortunate that women feel hurt and threatened by something that has nothing to do with them.

 

And it's unfortunate that so many men are willing to hurt a woman for something that has so little value.

 

Masturbation is a personal and private thing. Men don't do it out of spite, or as a replacement, or anything like that. It is a very simple matter of filling the spank bank.

 

I agree. I neve said anything about men doing it out of spite. As a replacement? I do think men use it as a replacement for the time they are mastubating.

 

When a man masturbates to something, why do women feel a need to assign that some deep psychological meaning or feel that is has something to do with their own perceived inadequacies?

 

Because porn is about all the ways that most women are lacking that men wish and desire for! We don't need preceived inadequacies. It's right there in the porn that men love, reminding us in all the ways that we are lacking that they wished we were like. Otherwise why would they need such a medium to make themselves feel good.

 

And I think you can tell a fair amount about a man by what he enjoys on a sexual level. Not to get too Freudian about it.

 

 

 

You do realize that a man's sex life and a man's masturbation life are separate, right? Pleasing a woman, and engaging in playful sex and masturbating aren't mutually exclusive. When he's with you, he's turned on by you. When he's with himself in his own private masturbation fantasies - then other things turn him on.

 

Really, now you can gaurantee who and what a man is thinking about when he is with his partner? And you seriously believe the two never cross? I think you aren't being realistic.

 

Are you saying that when a man is in a relationship, that nothing should turn him on but the woman he is with? I'm sure that would be ideal for a good deal of women, but unfortunately men aren't wired like that. Even if a man doesn't watch or like porn - he will still see attractive women around him and indulge in a little 'what if' from time to time.

 

Men indugle in alot of "what if " time alot of the time. IT's not a time to time thing from what I see in most men. From the men I date, to the men my friends are in relationships with, to how I see my male friends behave and so on. I don't expect a man to never have another sexual feeling about another woman ever. I expect for more self control. Something that seems to be missing. Men just aren't loyal and they don't care about putting in the effort to do it.

 

 

 

electric sheep

 

You haven't seen or read many interviews then with a lot of todays porn stars. The days of stigma and abuse are largely over. Plenty of todays adult stars powerfully and articulately defend their profession.

 

Now, you could say that they have been "brainwashed" or are confused by societal/environmental/cultural phenomenon, but that's a dicey argument. After all, it could be applied to virtually anything and everything in society... like why people go to church.

 

Spare me. Who is going to buy a porn movie of an actress that was abused and looks unhappy. Those interviews are not always real. It's a show, meant for entertainment. Not truth.

 

 

 

If Jersey had her way, she'd limit us all to masturbating to pictures of broccoli ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

No need to be cruel.

[Mr. Lucky]

Spare me. Who is going to buy a porn movie of an actress that was abused and looks unhappy. Those interviews are not always real. It's a show, meant for entertainment. Not truth.

Isn't the same true of porn, that it's a show, meant for entertainment, not truth? Regardless of the import that you personally attach to the participants or stories, it's no more real than Harry Potter...

 

Mr. Lucky

[LucreziaBorgia]

I had a lot of responses, but figured eh... no need. The only thing I can say really is that I feel really lucky not to feel threatened or jealous of spank bank stuff. I can't even imagine it really.

[soserious1]

Okay. I'm sorry you had such a miserable marriage. Your ex-husband sounds like every woman's nightmare....but do you honestly think that his behaviour is typical of the average guy? Are most men so lacking in empathy and humanity that they would tell their wife that the physical symptoms of her ageing want to make him throw up?

 

That is just not normal human behaviour. It's not behaviour that other people provoke by being too old, not pretty enough or physically imperfect. The person who treats others as inhumanely as that has something badly wrong within. I can appreciate that if you spent years of your life with a man like that, then it's probably had some pretty devastating effects.

 

 

 

By better woman, I don't mean being a sap who gets walked all over and spends her entire life trying to anticipate and be whatever men want. I mean being someone who has an identity that's something a bit more than just her reflection in male eyes. A personality and an outlook that's something a bit more than a kneejerk reaction to her perceptions about who men are and what they want. Right now there's no sense of a "you" coming through in your posts. Just someone who feels screwed over and is making the very big mistake of equating hardness and coldness with strength.

 

It's not strength. It's weakness of the worst type. Shutting down emotionally so that nobody can hurt you is nothing more than an admission that you've been hurt beyond repair. What I'm saying is that if you have been hurt beyond repair, then you're in no position to give anyone realistic advice as to how they should "realistically" view themselves.

 

In this thread, you've effectively used misogynistic discourse to encourage women over forty-five to view their bodies in a very negative light....presumably on the basis that as you yourself are a woman over forty-five, then you think it's okay to do that.

 

I don't think it is okay. I realise you've been burned and I'm sorry about that....but it doesn't give you a free pass to project all those negative messages you've chosen to absorb onto other women. Essentially you've come on here and encouraged other women to view their physical selves in the most negative light possible (using porn actresses in comparison). You call that outlook realistic. I call it the result of giving your entire self image over to other people (including your ex husband) to do whatever damaging thing they want to do to it.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

I went,sat down and viewed some porn that featured women in my age group. I'm sorry but I was aghast,it was like a horror show imho. I find nothing visually sexually appealing about wrinkles,scars, marks, stretch marks or varicose veins.I'm not sexually excited at the sight of nude old women and I can totally understand now why a lot of men aren't either.

 

As far as relationships go, once yiu hit 50 the pool of eligible single men begins dwindling considerably in relation to the available pool of women, in order to get a man a woman in this age range faces stiff competition and often has to make huge sacrifices in order to get into a LTR or remarry. I honestly don't feel that the benefits of a LTR outweigh the compromises I would have to make. Quite frankly, I'd rather pay a male escort for pleasure

the benefit/cost ratio is a lot more to my liking and I can conserve my time,energy and fiscal resources to other aspects of my life.

[The Collector]

And who would want to look like Skelator... I mean Kiera Knightly anyway.

 

I think Keira Knightley is beautiful, and putting down 'skinny' women doesn't advance any of your arguments.

[soserious1]

I think Keira Knightley is beautiful, and putting down 'skinny' women doesn't advance any of your arguments.

 

I agree, Jersey's sitting her going off about men prefering porn over their real life partners, I'm wondering how she'd react to a man saying ügh,why would I want to lust over you, you're too skinny"

 

Keira is beautiful and from the interviews I've seen appears to be an interesting person, love her accent.

[electric_sheep]

Spare me. Who is going to buy a porn movie of an actress that was abused and looks unhappy. Those interviews are not always real. It's a show, meant for entertainment. Not truth.

 

I'm not talking about interviews done by the "industry".

 

Regardless, you would have us believe all these porn stars are somehow "captives" of the industry? Forced to participate in a charade, like a hostage at gun point. They are all psychological and emotional cripples, trapped by their awful pasts and the people who would abuse them, and they have been compelled by their terrible pasts to run out to the San Fernando valley and star in porn movies?

 

Your's is a very dis-empowering vision. Just because different people make different decisions about different things doesn't mean they are "wrong". It doesn't imply that they must be psychologically unhinged or fragile.

 

How about this other possibility... namely that they are intelligent, thinking human beings, just like the rest of us, and that they weighed the pros and cons, and decided they wanted to take advantage of their God given good looks to make some quick and easy money. Just like all of us, they may or may not come to regret their decision latter on. Some of them do, and some of them don't. Look at Ron Jeremy and Nina Hartley, they don't seem to have many regrets.

 

I'm sure the "truth" encompasses both polarities, but I'm in no way convinced that legions of porn actors and actresses are nearly suicidal with regret, or emotional cripples caught in vicious circumstances beyond their control. That is claptrap promulgated by people who can't seem to accept that some people simply have a vision of sex that is different from their own. It's also condescending, moralistic, and overprotective.

[lonelyandfrustrated]

I was in Barnes and Noble today and on one of the endcaps, these words caught my eye:

 

Porn for Women

 

It was a calendar that showed a shirtless, average-looking guy pushing a vacuum. I thought of this thread, and had to share.