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The Porn Argument: Are we discussing the same thing?


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electric_sheep
Quite frankly, I'd rather pay a male escort for pleasure

the benefit/cost ratio is a lot more to my liking and I can conserve my time,energy and fiscal resources to other aspects of my life.

 

I've felt that way before too, but I don't think I'd really be able to enjoy sex without some feelings of attachment. Not to mention the worries about VD.

 

Still, I think the government should stop nannying us and permit us to do just that. There would also be far less worries about VD if it was regulated. Nevada has already set a fine example.

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LucreziaBorgia
I was in Barnes and Noble today and on one of the endcaps, these words caught my eye:

 

Porn for Women

 

It was a calendar that showed a shirtless, average-looking guy pushing a vacuum. I thought of this thread, and had to share. :D

 

Those books are hilarious! :laugh:

 

Truthful too, in an unexpected way.

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Jersey Shortie
Isn't the same true of porn, that it's a show, meant for entertainment, not truth? Regardless of the import that you personally attach to the participants or stories, it's no more real than Harry Potter...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

That would be a wonderful argument if porn was as a-sexual as Harry Potter. But obviously it isn't. Men want it to be truth. Men want women to sometimes dress up like those women. Men want to lust after every other woman that isn't his SO because all those women are always better. And men want to do the things those women in the movies are doing with their parter. Last time I checked I didn't see any grown man running around in a wizard hat and wand. ANd if men didn't want porn to be truth on some level, they wouldn't be so turned on by it.

 

 

 

I think Keira Knightley is beautiful, and putting down 'skinny' women doesn't advance any of your arguments.

 

That's great that you think Keira Knightley is beautiful. I don't. The discussion is porn. Don't make this into some politically correct show down about weight when it has nothing to do with that. I'm hardly over weight myself. I am not putting down "skinny" woman. I am making a comment based on how I preceive one woman to be. I also don't think Brad Pitt is attractive and think he looks like a homeless person sometimes. You want to tell me how you think Brad Pitt is quite handsome and how I am not advancing my argument? :rolleyes: Why don't you try sticking in the topic. I don't find her at all attractive and I am entitled to that opinion without you making assumptions that they only reason another woman doesn't think another woman is attractive is out of jealously. Ridiculous.

 

 

Regardless, you would have us believe all these porn stars are somehow "captives" of the industry?

 

No, I don't remember saying such a thing either. I do remember saying that I won't live in lala land and pretend the women in those movies are doing it because they have such great options in life or because they are so healthy mentally. I don't believe most healthy woman would want to be used for sex by x amount of different men to pelasure other namless faceless men. Sorry. That isn't a future most women want or look to be when "they grow up".

 

 

Your's is a very dis-empowering vision.

 

Porn is a dis-empowring vision smoked screen by the promise of nothing that many fall pray too.

 

 

How about this other possibility... namely that they are intelligent, thinking human beings, just like the rest of us, and that they weighed the pros and cons, and decided they wanted to take advantage of their God given good looks to make some quick and easy money. Just like all of us, they may or may not come to regret their decision latter on. Some of them do, and some of them don't. Look at Ron Jeremy and Nina Hartley, they don't seem to have many regrets.

 

 

WHen did I ever say that anyone is porn was stupid, dumb, or any other negative name ? Never. Not once. I will repeat for yoru benefit, what I did say is that no woman who is truly happy and has other options resorts doing pornography. No woman lists that on her carrere goals. No woman aspires to be only an inhuman thing use to get guys off. And I think it's funny that you used Ron Jeremy as an example of a sound human being. :laugh: I can not comment on the other because I don't know of her.

 

 

I'm sure the "truth" encompasses both polarities, but I'm in no way convinced that legions of porn actors and actresses are nearly suicidal with regret, or emotional cripples caught in vicious circumstances beyond their control. That is claptrap promulgated by people who can't seem to accept that some people simply have a vision of sex that is different from their own. It's also condescending, moralistic, and overprotective

 

And I am in no way convinced that legions of porn actors and actresses are so happy, carefree hippy indivuduals who are fullfilled (emotionally) with their work and are proud of what they are doing on an endless parade of casual sex with nameless faceless men.

 

But it's fine. I have learned long ago that what men really care for and about is their porn.

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That would be a wonderful argument if porn was as a-sexual as Harry Potter.

But why is the fact that it is "sexual" the only determining criteria? In a nutshell Jersey, this is what I've never understood about your position and the out-of-proportion import you place on sexual images.

 

I can watch "Bourne Identity" but you probably won't accuse me of wanting to be an assasin and kill people.

 

I can watch "Pirates of the Carribean" and no one thinks I want to go all Johnny Depp.

 

But if I watch porn, you've found me tried and convicted of wanting to degrade and exploit women.

 

Why is the sexual context the proof of the pudding?

 

Mr. Lucky

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LucreziaBorgia
And I think it's funny that you used Ron Jeremy as an example of a sound human being. :laugh:

 

If you were to take a moment to look past his porn career, you'd see just how sound of a human being he is. I've taken the time to read about his education, his career path, his outlook on human nature, have seen documentaries about him, and take the time to listen to his serious interviews and debates. Do you? It doesn't sound like it.

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Men want it to be truth.

 

Which parts? More to the point, which parts do us men want to be "truth" that you find objectionable? Why?

 

Men want women to sometimes dress up like those women.

 

Which ones? The naked ones? The ones wearing lingerie? Blue jeans? Bathing suits? T-Shirts? The porn I watch has a variety of different outfits worn by the actresses.

 

Men want to lust after every other woman that isn't his SO because all those women are always better.

 

I think this sentence sums up nicely your dysfunction. Just because you think the women in porn are better than you doesn't mean the rest of us think that about our SO's. Heck, it doesn't even mean your man thinks that about you.

 

And men want to do the things those women in the movies are doing with their parter.

 

You mean things like having sex? Yeah, you're right, we do want our partners to do that. I've told you before, the porn I watch differs from a "normal" persons life only insofar as there is frequently more than 2 people involved in the sex on screen. And that differs from my life not at all.

 

Of course, the whole point of this thread has been lost. I pointed out that the term "porn" is so broad and encompassing that it's completely likely we are arguing about different things. You keep speaking of acts of humiliation and degradation, and while you have repeatedly refused to delineate exactly what the hell you mean by that, the movies I watch, the magazines I read, and the images and clips that I watch online do not have that element, unless your definition of humiliation and degradation is so broad and encompassing as to be ridiculous on it's face. So once again I challenge you to list specifically what acts or activities you see in porn that you have problems with.

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If you were to take a moment to look past his porn career, you'd see just how sound of a human being he is. I've taken the time to read about his education, his career path, his outlook on human nature, have seen documentaries about him, and take the time to listen to his serious interviews and debates. Do you? It doesn't sound like it.

 

That requires perspective, which is in very short supply here. Ironically, the pornaddicts and pornphobics share one thing in common: both suffer from an amazing lack of perspective, an inability to view life, relationships and the human condition beyond the "cum shot." Neither is able to look past the genitalia.

 

Both, in their own way, are emotionally and intellectually stunted.

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Jersey Shortie

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But why is the fact that it is "sexual" the only determining criteria? In a nutshell Jersey, this is what I've never understood about your position and the out-of-proportion import you place on sexual images.

 

I can watch "Bourne Identity" but you probably won't accuse me of wanting to be an assasin and kill people.

 

I can watch "Pirates of the Carribean" and no one thinks I want to go all Johnny Depp.

 

But if I watch porn, you've found me tried and convicted of wanting to degrade and exploit women.

 

Why is the sexual context the proof of the pudding?

 

Mr. Lucky[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If you were to take a moment to look past his porn career, you'd see just how sound of a human being he is. I've taken the time to read about his education, his career path, his outlook on human nature, have seen documentaries about him, and take the time to listen to his serious interviews and debates. Do you? It doesn't sound like it.[/FONT][/COLOR]
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Actually, I have. I've read a ton of information on this topic. I've read interviews with him. I don't find him to be the kind of man that I would respect. Saying that because I don't,means I don't have the facts to back up my opinion on him, is arrogant. This is like saying that you must agree with McCain over Obama or vice versa. People view things differently. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But why is the fact that it is "sexual" the only determining criteria? In a nutshell Jersey, this is what I've never understood about your position and the out-of-proportion import you place on sexual images.

 

I can watch "Bourne Identity" but you probably won't accuse me of wanting to be an assasin and kill people.

 

I can watch "Pirates of the Carribean" and no one thinks I want to go all Johnny Depp.[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think you need to evluate the out of proportion importance that men place on sexual images. So much to the extent that they rather defend that and their right to it, then listen to a real woman. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]And I find it hard to believe that yo ureally don't understand why the element of sex, how women and how men are depicted in such a vunerable position, is fastly different then a person portraying something as neutral as a spy or pirate.

 

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But if I watch porn, you've found me tried and convicted of wanting to degrade and exploit women.

 

Why is the sexual context the proof of the pudding?

 

Mr. Lucky[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Mr. Lucky, your ability to throw out questions and ignore and disgard the ones that are asked of you never goes unnoticed. Why isn't the sexual context not the proof of the pudding? (Don't worry, I fully expect you to back talk, ignore or walk around the direct question. As it's your usual way). [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If a man supports something that really doesn't protray women in the best light, you have to admit there there is an element there that he does on some level, not mind when a woman is exploited and used. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

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I think this sentence sums up nicely your dysfunction. Just because you think the women in porn are better than you doesn't mean the rest of us think that about our SO's. Heck, it doesn't even mean your man thinks that about you.

 

I never claimed I was perfect, But I certainly don't think anyone else here is either. Maybe you should look into yoru own dysfuntion. Perhaps men should try being happy and feeling lucky for what they do have, not what they don't. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

 

You mean things like having sex? Yeah, you're right, we do want our partners to do that.

 

I've explained myself on this point. If you want to pick and choose what information you use, that's up to you.

 

 

You keep speaking of acts of humiliation and degradation, and while you have repeatedly refused to delineate exactly what the hell you mean by that.....

 

Ummm, wrong. I gave you the answer to this more then several times. You disliek the answer I have given you. that doesn't mean I didn't answer the question.

 

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I think you need to evluate the out of proportion importance that men place on sexual images. So much to the extent that they rather defend that and their right to it, then listen to a real woman.

 

Actually, I think the problem is the out of proportion importance that you and those like you place on it. The undercurrent of pro-porn arguments is that when push comes to shove porn is NO BIG DEAL. It's you, and others like you who go gonzo crazy upon learning their husband actually (gasp!) looked at a picture of a naked woman who make Mt. Everest out of an anthill.

 

And I find it hard to believe that yo ureally don't understand why the element of sex, how women and how men are depicted in such a vunerable position, is fastly different then a person portraying something as neutral as a spy or pirate.

 

Because it's JUST SEX! NBD.

 

If a man supports something that really doesn't protray women in the best light, you have to admit there there is an element there that he does on some level, not mind when a woman is exploited and used.

 

Who says the women aren't portrayed in the "best light"? Who says they're being "exploited and used"? Once again, you're tossing out propaganda as fact, without even the least bit of effort to justify your statements.

 

Maybe you should look into yoru own dysfuntion. Perhaps men should try being happy and feeling lucky for what they do have, not what they don't.

 

What dysfunction would that be, I wasn't aware of any. I am extremely happy and lucky for what I have, I didn't even think a marriage this good was hypothetically possible until I found myself in one. That I watch porn does not imply any dissatisfaction or desire for change at all. Neither, for that matter, does the fact that we routinely act out the porn, including other people.

 

I've explained myself on this point. If you want to pick and choose what information you use, that's up to you.

 

Ummm, wrong. I gave you the answer to this more then several times. You disliek the answer I have given you. that doesn't mean I didn't answer the question.

 

No, you most certainly have not. The only thing you've said that's even remotely on point is that you don't like it when men refer to women as "bitches" or "whores" or "sluts", and that you don't like facials. Now, I agree with you that if those words are used in a derogatory sense that it's disrespectful, and I choose to watch porn that does not contain those types of things. It's also true that in some cases the words themselves can be used in a non-derogatory manner, as on more than one occasion I have referred to my wife as a "slut", as has she, but it is most certainly meant in a GOOD way. In a similar bent, some women like taking a facial, imagine that.

 

However, you keep repeating the theme that porn is, by definition, derogatory, degrading, and insulting. That the acts depicted are despicable, and that men who want their women to "dress" or "act" like women in porn are selfish and cold-hearted. I don't think it's too much to ask just what acts, what outfits, what scenes you are reffering to. If you mean "Max Hardcore" when you say "porn", I won't argue with you, I think it's disgusting too! But if you include Vivid, Playboy Magazine, or internet chat rooms where married couples get off by web-camming their sexual excapades knowing that others are watching, I must object.

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Mr. Lucky, your ability to throw out questions and ignore and disgard the ones that are asked of you never goes unnoticed. Why isn't the sexual context not the proof of the pudding? (Don't worry, I fully expect you to back talk, ignore or walk around the direct question. As it's your usual way).

Well, gosh darn it all, I'll try and keep the back talk to a minimum :p .

 

If I'm understanding your question correctly (I'm a little confused by the double negative), the answer is simple. My (and my wife's) occasional porn use doesn't define our sexual relationship, which is based on equal parts of love, lust and consideration. Our sexual relationship doesn't define our marriage, which also encompasses family, companionship, shared interests and mutual support. And my marriage doesn't completely define my life, which also includes career, hobbies and friends.

 

So that you or anyone else would assume that you can draw conclusions about me (or any other poster) based on my watching a porn video confounds me. It seems as intellectually lazy as my assuming a lack of education on your part because your posts contain spelling errors. Ultimately, it cheats us both of any chance of understanding a complex issue...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

BTW - Did I answer your question?

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Jersey Shortie
Actually, I think the problem is the out of proportion importance that you and those like you place on it. The undercurrent of pro-porn arguments is that when push comes to shove porn is NO BIG DEAL. It's you, and others like you who go gonzo crazy upon learning their husband actually (gasp!) looked at a picture of a naked woman who make Mt. Everest out of an anthill.

 

Those like me? You mean those that disagree with how you see the world? Yeah "those" people. The undercurrent of pro-porn argument is about having your cake and eating it too. Something you are obviously okay with as we've had this talk before. Which is fine. It is however not fair to your partner. It's obviously a big deal to men on some level. Men argue and argue it's no big deal, but when it comes down to it it is the porn they stick up for. I don't fault men for liking women or naked women. I fault them for not showing more selfcontrol out of respect and love for their partner.

 

Who says the women aren't portrayed in the "best light"?

 

98% of rational adults.

 

Who says they're being "exploited and used"?

 

Still a high percentage of adults.

 

Once again, you're tossing out propaganda as fact, without even the least bit of effort to justify your statements.

 

No. I am tossing out observations that I have deducted and that others have deducted based on their opinion on porn. My comments on porn are neither absurd or fake.

 

 

What dysfunction would that be, I wasn't aware of any.

 

That is infact part of the dysfunction.

 

I am extremely happy and lucky for what I have, I didn't even think a marriage this good was hypothetically possible until I found myself in one. That I watch porn does not imply any dissatisfaction or desire for change at all. Neither, for that matter, does the fact that we routinely act out the porn, including other people.

 

That's all find and good for you. I am speaking of most men.

 

 

However, you keep repeating the theme that porn is, by definition, derogatory, degrading, and insulting.

 

Yeap.

 

 

That the acts depicted are despicable, and that men who want their women to "dress" or "act" like women in porn are selfish and cold-hearted.

 

Please don't invent words that I never said. I think the acts in most porn are often mostly degrading towards women. And I do think men can be very selfish and cold-hearted when it comes to this topic. True.

 

 

But if you include Vivid, Playboy Magazine, or internet chat rooms where married couples get off by web-camming their sexual excapades knowing that others are watching, I must object.

 

I have no clue what Vivid is and I don't really care but I do find it depressing that men tie their sexuality so much to porn. And I think the standards that Playboy sets up for women, makes it impossible for women to feel beautiful in their own right. But I guess as women we are expect to shut up, sit down and smile while our own husband boyfriend sit there and drool over 21 year olds in Playboy. I guess that's what men really want. I give up trying to figure out what men want. They certainly don't really care about women at all.

 

 

So that you or anyone else would assume that you can draw conclusions about me (or any other poster) based on my watching a porn video confounds me.

 

Why not? I would draw a conclusion about a man that likes baseball, that he likes sports. Or a man that likes to cook, and enjoys food...and a man that views porn. There are certain conclusions we all draw on others based on what they do with their time. And since I think porn is pretty negative all around and isn't really all that kind to women, I will make assumptions based on the people that enjoy viewing it. Especially so with men since I am a woman who has romantic relationships with them. And I want a man that can be happy with himself and with me and who doesn't need to have porn in his life. But finding a man like that is hard because men just don't care anymore.

 

It seems as intellectually lazy as my assuming a lack of education on your part because your posts contain spelling errors. Ultimately, it cheats us both of any chance of understanding a complex issue...

 

But I don't think men are idiots or evil because they like and watch porn. I however do think the are selfish and inconsiderate for indulging in it. The complex issue is men like porn, they need it to be happy and they don't care about making real women feel special or good.

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Why not? I would draw a conclusion about a man that likes baseball, that he likes sports. Or a man that likes to cook, and enjoys food...and a man that views porn. There are certain conclusions we all draw on others based on what they do with their time.

OK, let's use your examples. What conclusion would you draw about a man that likes to cook?

 

Mr. Lucky

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I disagree with the definitions originally posted for erotica vs pornography. IMO , Erotica is anything wich suggests sexual images or ideas but doesn't actually show it, and Porn is any graphicly depicted legal sexual act.

While I'm not 100% for porn, I'm not 100% against it, either, and I have to disagree with much of what has been posted by Jersey Shortie, starting with this:

And I think the standards that Playboy sets up for women, makes it impossible for women to feel beautiful in their own right.

I firmly believe in the old adage "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." I am nowhere near the physical ideal for Playboy, yet I am beautiful because it is clear to me that my husband finds me so. The sheer variety of pornography available also bears this up - if there were only one set of standards, then there would not be such porn as "granny" porn , or "fatty" porn, and so on-there would be no market for it. Because what is beautiful and exciting depends largely on the person viewing it. With the huge variety available it also makes it easier for you to chose your arguements - such as your idea that only thin young women are attractive to men. But you cannot lump all men, or even all people, in the same catagory. What trips everyone's trigger is highly individual. So what exactly is it that is so offensive in porn to you? If it's just that men masturbate to it then you had better have a problem with a whole lot of other things as well - I've caught my husband with an issue of Cosmo with his favorite actress on the cover (fully clothed mind you), or looking decidedly flushed and turned on after a good muscle car show. Do these things offend?

I also see a huge difference between fantasy and reality. For instance: it might flat do it for him to see two girls kissing, but he would never allow a third of any flavor in our bedroom. He might, however, ask me to wear a leather outfit. There's a difference between real fantasy, and play acting to spice it up in the bedroom. Men are sexual creatures, and I promise, they were masturbating long before the invention of the XXX DVD, and if porn were banned tomorrow, would be doing it still.

Lastly - I don't believe women are less sexually inclined than men - just better at hiding it. Yes women do masturbate to images of men (no Brad Pitt for me though lol) and I gaurentee, I would rather look at some 25 yr old young buck than a 50 yr old getting his own sagging breasts. Yup - we are just plain better at hiding. Just a thought - make your arguement about what your problem is, and less about sweeping, and largely untrue, generalizations. :rolleyes:

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I've just been reading this interesting thread. It seems to me that "pro-porners" are simply never going to agree with "anti-porners" - they have opposing viewpoints that will never find common ground. I'd like to make two points:

1) Jersey said "I fault them for not showing more selfcontrol out of respect and love for their partner." Is this not the really important issue? If a man is in a relationship with a woman who doesn't mind him looking at "ethical" porn, where's the problem? (I mean the consenting adult stuff like exhibitionist adult couples). But if a woman is uncomfortable with a man doing this, surely the man has to make a choice:

a) to indulge his own wishes and ignore the sensitivities of his partner

b) to practice self-control, respect his partner's sensitivities, and to choose not to look at porn. If this is too much for him to do, then perhaps he should look at his commitment to the relationship? Should he instead choose to be with a porn-tolerant woman?

2) As for the original question, the boundary between erotica and pornography is always going to be a blurred line, and will be different for everyone. One woman's porn is one man's erotica. Michelangelo's David is surely erotica to everyone, and men spanking bitch-whores is surely pornography to everyone, but away from the extremes, there is a big bit in the middle that could be argued either way.

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This thread has been seriously de-railed, and the discussion is now getting argumentative and unnecessarily heated. I think this thread has run its course.

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