The Porn Argument: Are we discussing the same thing?

[Geishawhelk]

Yes, because it doesn't damage me and doesn't effect me. I could not watch a porn movie being filmed though, it would make me feel bad.

 

But with porn, all I see is what is filmed. I gain pleasure at the expense of others, but its not like I directly cause it. Its indirect.

 

No, I'm sorry, this is a silly argument....

I hate to disagree with you, but you are causing it, by buying (or renting) into it. It's direct because you are the client and they are serving the customer.

I really do get a little bit annoyed when people 'distance' themselves from a potentially harmful situation by saying that they're not directly involved.

Everyone on that screen is someone's daughter, sister, cousin... whatever.

And whilst I do take on board, indubitably, that some women do enjoy it, I feel certain that there are many others who do feel used, cheated, exploited and abused.

 

There was a programme on UKTV some time ago about an ex-porn star who left the industry and became a gynaecologist specialising in STD's and actualy succeeded in shutting a studio down because one of the male 'actors' (I use the term advisedly) had contracted HIV (the stars were required to take a test every 6 months) and hadn't told the studio or any of his fellow stars.... the result was that he passed HIV/AIDS to seventeen other women. Knowingly. The doctor risked breaking client confidentiality, and she blew the whistle on him. And found herself so badly beaten up she was on a life-support machine for 3 weeks.

Sex sells.

But the studio eventually had to give into the scandal and close down, and was non-operational for two years.

This doctor also habitually repaired and operated on young girls who had been internally torn to shreds by multiple-simultaneous penetration (anal AND Vaginal at one and the same time, by two men.... and we know these guys are not exactly 'built' on the small side....)

 

Every time anyone buys or rents these movies, they are feeding an industry that whilst it protests publicly that it's safe, and all the girls are happy - well - they would say that, wouldn't they? - are hiding the fact that exploitation is rife, under-age sex is commonplace (girls of 15 or 16 can and do look much older....) and stars a two a penny. Expendable.

 

To say that watching a film being made, is different to buying the finished product - well, I'm sorry.

That just does not sit well with me.

 

Explain to me how that is different.

From the POV of the people in it, that is....

[zxcirce]

TMI alert...

 

I engage in consensual deep-throating head with my boyfriend. Is this degrading because, yes, I do gag and cough sometimes when he thrusts? It's a natural reflex. Am I being degraded? If we filmed it, would I then be being degraded? I enjoy it and it is consensual. Therefore, I don't see how it's degrading. It's sex.

 

Women in porn films sign on to do these things, and just might actually get pleasure from them. I have also done ATM in my life, so don't think it doesn't happen. So if one of my sex sessions was filmed and put on the internet, would it be just a terrible degrading thing?I don't think so.

[sxyNYCcpl]

So if one of my sex sessions was filmed and put on the internet, would it be just a terrible degrading thing?I don't think so.

 

[sarcasm]

I guess you've just bought into the sexist female-hating unrealistic sex having pornified male culture. You can't possible truly enjoy those things, you do them because you think you have to.

[/sarcasm]

[zxcirce]

[sarcasm]

I guess you've just bought into the sexist female-hating unrealistic sex having pornified male culture. You can't possible truly enjoy those things, you do them because you think you have to.

[/sarcasm]

 

Honestly, i think you're right. My orgasms speak nothing of my actual sexual pleasure...

[The Collector]

I've dated a couple of strippers. One of them did a live lesbian sex show. I told her they should incorporate spitting on each other. They thought it was great idea, and incorporated into their act. Is that wrong?

[sxyNYCcpl]

Honestly, i think you're right. My orgasms speak nothing of my actual sexual pleasure...

 

Actually, now that I've thought about this a bit more, I've decided I need to see one of these sessions to decide if you are being degraded or not. Do let me know where I can download a vid...

[Geishawhelk]

Women in porn films sign on to do these things, and just might actually get pleasure from them. I have also done ATM in my life, so don't think it doesn't happen. So if one of my sex sessions was filmed and put on the internet, would it be just a terrible degrading thing?I don't think so.

 

Well, I have been in the situation where I wqas present during three separate counselling sessions, and two of these were with women who commercially appeared in porn films. Both admitted that they'd signed the contracts, but the wording was so ambiguous that basically, as far as the studios were concerned, it was a bit of a free-for-all... and not to their liking....

The third was a young lady who made several titillating films with her BF, not realising he was going to mass-produce them and sell them on e-bay..... she wasn't degraded to begin with, but certainly felt it later.....

 

Jut making a discursive point. Not criticising.

[zxcirce]

That makes sense, geishawalk. The question of consent can be murky. I've seen porns before where the actresses were obviously on drugs and kinda out of their minds, which did leave me with a very icky feeling, and I didn't continue watching.

 

The question of the women who didn't know what exactly they were signing on for is trickier though. If they didn't like it, why didn't they say no? What forces are at work there? They didn't want to mess up the scene? Didn't have the courage to speak up? Were talked down? I can see it being a volatile situation.

 

I've never recorded myself having sex. I won't because I don't want it to get out. It's common sense that you don't record anything you don't want on video. Her partner did an awful thing, yes. But unless he videotaped it without her consent, she did play a minimal role in that. Not saying it's her fault, at all.

 

I like discussion.

[soserious1]

The real degradation imho is the hallmark hearts and flowers version of relationships and marriage that we foist on our young people. Years of living with somebody who expected a hero's medal for the huge "sacrifice" he made

in being physically faithful to little old, woefully inadequate me has taught me that monogamy is the real obscenity, not porn which simply reflects what are desires are at their most basic, stripped of all PC, hallmark fantasy crap.

[JackJack]

I think what might be degrading to one person, might not to be to another. So its to each persons right to feel how they want on the issue.

[blair08]

IMO, people try to hard to figure out things. I think if one likes this or that, doesn't find things degrading, then go with it, live your life like that, and don't worry to much about over analyzing the WHY"S and HOW"S of things. If there are people who do find certain things degrading, or has dislikes in reguards to sex/porn etc, then let them, its ok.

[Jersey Shortie]

Yes, because it doesn't damage me and doesn't effect me. I could not watch a porn movie being filmed though, it would make me feel bad.

 

But with porn, all I see is what is filmed. I gain pleasure at the expense of others, but its not like I directly cause it. Its indirect.

 

You are rationalizing and justifying why it's okay for you to watch it. But I have seen you make comments to other men about their porn use. Whether you like it or not, you are supporting an industry that would make you feel bad if you saw the realism of it. You are supporting an industry that you said yourself was degrading to women. And then you rationalize your lack or responsiblity in that equation because your pleasure trumps the situation. You don't think it doesn't effect you? You aren't being realistic or logical about human nature. Advertising works for a reason. You are, what you take in. You are not as unaffected by porn as you wish to be. Neither am I.

 

I was once very navie about porn and men's porn use. And in an attempt to try to understand men better, I tried being *cool* about porn. And I see how it has changed me. And I really don't think I am all that much better for it, even if I know a few more different sex acts. I was perfectly happy with my sex life before knowing what was out there.

 

 

 

I've dated a couple of strippers. One of them did a live lesbian sex show. I told her they should incorporate spitting on each other. They thought it was great idea, and incorporated into their act. Is that wrong?

 

Okay, what physical pleasure comes from two people spitting on each other? It's a fair and serious question. What is it about the act of spitting on each other, that turns a man on? What am I missing here?

 

 

I engage in consensual deep-throating head with my boyfriend. Is this degrading because, yes, I do gag and cough sometimes when he thrusts? It's a natural reflex. Am I being degraded? If we filmed it, would I then be being degraded? I enjoy it and it is consensual. Therefore, I don't see how it's degrading. It's sex.

 

You're comparing what goes on between you and your boyfriend between what goes on between pornstars?

 

This argument confuses me. You really don't see how what goes on between two people that care for each other, and are doing it for the pleasure of each other is different then two people who only care about what they can get from one another and panders to the most shallow aspects men and women can exploit each other for, money and sex.

 

 

Women in porn films sign on to do these things, and just might actually get pleasure from them. I have also done ATM in my life, so don't think it doesn't happen. So if one of my sex sessions was filmed and put on the internet, would it be just a terrible degrading thing?I don't think so.

 

What pleasure do you get from ATM? I am sincerely curious what physical pleasure, for you, comes from ATM. What pleasure does your boyfriend get by performing that act? And do you think your boyfriend would ever put anything in his mouth after it had been inserted into his other end?

 

Women in porn sign on to do these things no doubt. That was never the arguement. It doens't mean that it isn't degrading to women, that the stakes in sex have been raised about what men now expect. I am having relationships with men. I want them to value women. But I don't see a whole lot that shows me men do value women.

[zxcirce]

 

 

 

 

You're comparing what goes on between you and your boyfriend between what goes on between pornstars?

 

I'm attempting to reply to the assertion that the acts ("forced" or rough deep throat, and atm, etc) are done on screen for the pleasure of men only. That these acts are degrading to females. That females don't enjoy them. I enjoyed rough deep throat and submission before I ever saw it in a porn. With the right man of course.

 

This argument confuses me. You really don't see how what goes on between two people that care for each other, and are doing it for the pleasure of each other is different then two people who only care about what they can get from one another and panders to the most shallow aspects men and women can exploit each other for, money and sex.

 

I do see how it's different. But I don't see it as exploitation or degradation. I see it as sex on film.

 

 

What pleasure do you get from ATM? I am sincerely curious what physical pleasure, for you, comes from ATM. What pleasure does your boyfriend get by performing that act? And do you think your boyfriend would ever put anything in his mouth after it had been inserted into his other end?

 

It's like as any sexual pleasure, really, or at least comes from that place of finding taboo erotic. I didn't even do it on purpose but I don't want to get too graphic in explanation as I know it's not a lot of people's cup of tea. He kissed me afterward, with tongue, which was kind of a show of solidarity. And it doesn't matter if he wants it in his ass, I did.

 

Women in porn sign on to do these things no doubt. That was never the arguement. It doens't mean that it isn't degrading to women, that the stakes in sex have been raised about what men now expect. I am having relationships with men. I want them to value women. But I don't see a whole lot that shows me men do value women.

I disagree with this argument mainly because I don't think all or even a majority of men expect what they see on film in real life. They know as well as you do that it's fantasy. I use pornography as an easy way to get turned on, by someone else's fantasy, as it were. I don't think it's much about respect either way.

 

And btw Jersey I enjoy debating this with you. You are always respectful to others' views and make very good points which do cause me to think about my stance. Porn is a very polarizing subject and I'll admit to being conflicted about it, as well, but I don't think it's as "bad" as you seem to. I hope I'm not coming across rudely, as I'm doing my best not to. I know I go off on tangents and make weird points sometimes. Thanks for trying to follow and being willing to listen to my point of view.

[Sks]

No, I'm sorry, this is a silly argument....

I hate to disagree with you, but you are causing it, by buying (or renting) into it. It's direct because you are the client and they are serving the customer.

I really do get a little bit annoyed when people 'distance' themselves from a potentially harmful situation by saying that they're not directly involved.

Everyone on that screen is someone's daughter, sister, cousin... whatever.

And whilst I do take on board, indubitably, that some women do enjoy it, I feel certain that there are many others who do feel used, cheated, exploited and abused.

 

There was a programme on UKTV some time ago about an ex-porn star who left the industry and became a gynaecologist specialising in STD's and actualy succeeded in shutting a studio down because one of the male 'actors' (I use the term advisedly) had contracted HIV (the stars were required to take a test every 6 months) and hadn't told the studio or any of his fellow stars.... the result was that he passed HIV/AIDS to seventeen other women. Knowingly. The doctor risked breaking client confidentiality, and she blew the whistle on him. And found herself so badly beaten up she was on a life-support machine for 3 weeks.

Sex sells.

But the studio eventually had to give into the scandal and close down, and was non-operational for two years.

This doctor also habitually repaired and operated on young girls who had been internally torn to shreds by multiple-simultaneous penetration (anal AND Vaginal at one and the same time, by two men.... and we know these guys are not exactly 'built' on the small side....)

 

Every time anyone buys or rents these movies, they are feeding an industry that whilst it protests publicly that it's safe, and all the girls are happy - well - they would say that, wouldn't they? - are hiding the fact that exploitation is rife, under-age sex is commonplace (girls of 15 or 16 can and do look much older....) and stars a two a penny. Expendable.

 

To say that watching a film being made, is different to buying the finished product - well, I'm sorry.

That just does not sit well with me.

 

Explain to me how that is different.

From the POV of the people in it, that is....

 

Its not a silly argument, its simply stating that ultimatly my pleasure is more important then the fraction of damage my viewership does to the people involved.

 

I am admittedly selfish when it comes to this, but I would say what I watch is a little more controlled(pun, lol) then most porn.

[Taramere]

A film that portrays women being abused, hit, verbally assaulted, forced, or any other activity that is clear unadulterated abuse is one thing, a tape of people getting their freak on and enjoying themselves is quite another.

Your thoughts?

 

I think it can be very difficult to understand or accept the notion of violence between consenting parties. So it's not just the violence in that type of porn that would be shocking....but the element of doubt about whether the people involved truly consented....or are the producers not only flaunting a sexual offence, but making money out of selling it?

 

Occasionally porn actresses have come forward and said "I didn't consent....I wasn't in a state of mind to consent." Linda Lovelace springs to mind. But then we wonder - well, is it really the case that she didn't consent at the time or did her value set change after the film was released? Did she at one point go through a very submissive phase, then have a change of heart? Did she then decide "I wouldn't do that again..." and if so, did that render her recollection of events faulty? That is, of course, the line defence counsel will sometimes take in cross-examining an alleged victim of rape.

 

A porn film that depicts what appears to be violent, non consensual sex, and which doesn't provide before and after interviews with the "victim" to reassure the viewer that it really was just acting is, in my view, colluding with the mentality that women are asking for it and that rape isn't a crime. The intelligent viewer can reject that message and see the porn for what it is....but not every porn viewer is Einstein. Some are going to be slack-jawed yokels who can't present an argument more sophisticated than "it gets me off; who cares about why or if she consented?" They'll regard consent as a black and white issue in the way that a jury must try to identify it as cut and dried issue in order to provide a fair verdict. Did she consent or didn't she? Yes or no?

 

Some consent is given freely and without any pressure. At the other extreme you have rape. In between is that whole area where consent might be obtained through persuasion, flattery, seduction or some degree of pressure that falls short of force. One woman might say "I consent to specific violent activities A and B, but not to C." Another may say "I consent to a sexual relationship in the context of which you may degrade me in whichever way you choose."

 

I think viable relationships involving the latter would be very rare, but possible assuming extremely high levels of trust and responsibility. The kind of hardcore porn you’re describing could depict the kind of sex that might take place in those relationships - but which for the mainstream viewer would take place only in the realms of dark fantasy. Or would be what they understand to occur in the case of criminal assault and therefore reject instinctively; maybe for fear of over-identifying with the victims or perpetrators of sexual assaults.

 

Hardcore violent porn is bound to be a difficult issue for some people. It doesn’t explore, in any serious manner, the psychological issues that could help viewers make any sense of why a person might consent to being hurt or degraded during sex. The viewer is left to conclude vaguely that some women like to be knocked around for reasons that aren’t worth examining (because the women themselves aren’t worth the time and effort required to think about these things). Or - in many cases perhaps correctly - that the participants are drug addicts who are stuck for other means of funding their habit.

 

I don't think one could expect a woman who'd been, at some point, raped or sexually assaulted to be okay with violent porn. Especially not when the viewer is left to form the conclusions mentioned above. Some might be, or could even be drawn to it as a result of their experiences, but many won't - for reasons that would surely be understandable to the averagely sensitive person. Other women who haven't been assaulted personally, but who feel empathy with those who have, might feel similarly uncomfortable about, or antagonistic towards, it.

 

That's what the ongoing porn debate often comes down to in some of the more emotional threads. On the one hand, genuine and rational distress being dismissed as prudishness and narrow mindedness. Occasional insensitive and unrealistic exhortations that a person should be okay with being exposed to intentionally shocking visuals - ones that deal with issues they aren’t emotionally and experientially equipped to face.

 

On the other hand, the willingness to explore dark fantasy being perceived as a sign of a creepy or maladjusted personality rather than an honest admission of “this is part of who I am, and possibly part of who many people are – whether or not they’re agreeable to owning it…”

[Jersey Shortie]

It doesn’t explore, in any serious manner, the psychological issues that could help viewers make any sense of why a person might consent to being hurt or degraded during sex. The viewer is left to conclude vaguely that some women like to be knocked around for reasons that aren’t worth examining (because the women themselves aren’t worth the time and effort required to think about these things).

 

 

Well, whether the woman in the porn is being degraded or not, by my standards or another's, I think the main message is that women in porn are not worth the time and effort to invest in something more postive by a man, beyond what between her legs provides men. It's discouraging.

 

 

 

Its not a silly argument, its simply stating that ultimatly my pleasure is more important then the fraction of damage my viewership does to the people involved.

 

I am admittedly selfish when it comes to this, but I would say what I watch is a little more controlled(pun, lol) then most porn.

 

So when it comes down to voting this year for our president we can expect that you won't be at the polls voting because after all, you are only a very small fraction of effect. Your vote, your actions , don't and won't make a difference right?

 

You admit to being selfish yet it's okay because it's *you* and *you* can be selfish. Because your porn is *controlled*, so it's okay for you to do it.

People come up with any answer to justify their behavior.

 

This is the guise that most people operate on. Most people operate on what is or feels good for only them with little regard to others. We think we are above it all. Above playing by the same rules of other and above giving respect to others and justifying are actions based on what we want, not what is right.

 

I have seen you make comments to other men pointing the finger at them when you look at porn just like them.

 

So I hope, since you believe you have little effect and baring on anything, that you do not vote in the upcoming election. Because you are only one person right? It doesn't matter if you vote.

 

It's rather amazing how many different ways men justify their porn use, make excuses for it and talk around it. Then turn around and say that porn isn't important. Unbelievable.

[grogster]

Tara, regarding BDSM porn, you wrote the following:

 

"Hardcore violent porn is bound to be a difficult issue for some people".

 

 

So are bad puns.

[Sks]

So when it comes down to voting this year for our president we can expect that you won't be at the polls voting because after all, you are only a very small fraction of effect. Your vote, your actions , don't and won't make a difference right?

 

You admit to being selfish yet it's okay because it's *you* and *you* can be selfish. Because your porn is *controlled*, so it's okay for you to do it.

People come up with any answer to justify their behavior.

 

This is the guise that most people operate on. Most people operate on what is or feels good for only them with little regard to others. We think we are above it all. Above playing by the same rules of other and above giving respect to others and justifying are actions based on what we want, not what is right.

 

I have seen you make comments to other men pointing the finger at them when you look at porn just like them.

 

So I hope, since you believe you have little effect and baring on anything, that you do not vote in the upcoming election. Because you are only one person right? It doesn't matter if you vote.

 

It's rather amazing how many different ways men justify their porn use, make excuses for it and talk around it. Then turn around and say that porn isn't important. Unbelievable.

 

Nothing I said has to do with excuses, it was pointing out that, ultimatly I don't care. I enjoy it, that is all that really matters.

[Jersey Shortie]

Nothing I said has to do with excuses, it was pointing out that, ultimatly I don't care. I enjoy it, that is all that really matters.

 

Yeah it does.

 

And I think most men think the same way you do. All that matters is yourselves. No one else.

[Sks]

Yeah it does.

 

And I think most men think the same way you do. All that matters is yourselves. No one else.

 

We all have our own morals, they differ from person to person. I am a semi-vegetarian, I consume meat but not often. Everyday millions of animals are killed for human consumption while living in horrible conditions.

 

I really don't think I could be considered more selfish then anyone else, I have my own flaws. Sex is one of the strongest drives humans have, I don't really think I am too bad because I am too mentally weak to fight it. Porn is the least "bad" out of all the options.

[Taramere]

Tara, regarding BDSM porn, you wrote the following:

 

"Hardcore violent porn is bound to be a difficult issue for some people".

 

 

So are bad puns.

 

You do like your gags, grogster.

[grogster]

You do like your gags, grogster.

 

Good one! Tara, you are LS's Poet Laureate.

[grogster]

The problem, of course, is that one person's "dark fantasy" is another person's "violent porn." Line drawing that , on a broad consensus basis, distinguishes between heart stopping erotica, and stomach churning porn, is very, very difficult.

 

I've often thought that "erotica" is "porn" relabeled depending on whether the viewer is willing to admit, in polite discussion, that he or she likes the sexual depictions. In other words, one person's "erotica" or "dark fantasy" is another person's porn. Frequently it's a question of taste, preference, mood and setting.

 

For example, I like very well-done BDSM porn on sites like 'Sex and Submission." The female model, both before and after the film, states on camera that every scene was consenual. The films are of high quality, and if I find a particular scene offensive I stop watching or fast forward, which is what I do in many mainstream films that have violent scenes.

[Geishawhelk]

Oh good point grogster...

 

Lady Chatterly's lover - banned.

Last Tango in Paris - banned.

 

Reservoir Dogs - OK.

Saving Private Ryan - Ok.

 

It seems extreme forms of violence are ok to watch, but sex is more taboo.

To my mind, the inhumanity of Violence and man's cruelty towards other men, is the true porn....

 

Don't forget also, that classic works of art were once considered shocking, whereas we now view them as highly-valued, tasteful depictions, typical of that period.

[grogster]

Oh good point grogster...

 

Lady Chatterly's lover - banned.

Last Tango in Paris - banned.

 

Reservoir Dogs - OK.

Saving Private Ryan - Ok.

 

It seems extreme forms of violence are ok to watch, but sex is more taboo.

To my mind, the inhumanity of Violence and man's cruelty towards other men, is the true porn....

 

Don't forget also, that classic works of art were once considered shocking, whereas we now view them as highly-valued, tasteful depictions, typical of that period.

 

Very true, Geishawhelk. As there are evolving standards of decency, there are evolving standards of mainstream erotica. Too often, porn discussions devolve into ahistorical absolutes. Porn involves taste, private acceptance and public acceptability, and these are ever changing standards ones rooted in culture, history and class. Porn is rooted in history.

 

As for violence, I would watch a half decent YouPorn video before watching execrable junk like Hostel, Saw and other ultra-violent films.

 

Call me old fashioned, I'd rather watched young women fu3king than being tortured and killed.