There is no such thing as Retroactive Jealousy - its called Maddona/Whore complex

[lamaman3]

I see the same problems over and over again on here - guys saying they have retroactive jealousy - as its euphemistically called here. They convince themselves that they are jealous of other guys who have had some sort of sexual relationship with their girlfriends. Misdiagnosis wont lead to a cure or the help they need.

 

Now retroactive jealousy dosent sound so bad does it? Everyone gets jealous now and again right? Ever wonder why almost all the RJ jealousy cases here have to do with guys getting it and not girls? Are women really less jealous and competitve than men? Why do alot of these "jealous of gf's past" threads end up obsessing over little details? The answer is because all these threads about being "retroactively jealous" are not that at all. You are not suffering from retroactive jealousy - you are suffering from a raging Madonna/Whore complex.

 

Wow - sounds alot worse now dosent it. "Hi I have a Madonna/Whore complex" dosent sound as accepting as "I have retroactive jealousy" - and thats a good thing - because it cuts to the heart of the psychological illness that is at the center of what these men suffer through.

 

What is a Madonna/Whore complex? It means that you divide women into 2 categories - they are either Madonna's - virginal, sweet, caring, loving, innocent - or they are whores - defined by their horniness and sexual activity. Again - not quite as acceptable sounding as "retroactive jealousy." I have been there - trust me, I know its not rational, I know your mind plays tricks on you -but you guys have to realize that this attitude is actually something to be ASHAMED about.

 

Women, for all their differences with men - dont differ that much with regards to the inherent sexuality that exists within every creature. Women are not either Maddonas or Whores - just like the man sitting in front of the computer screen right now reading this isnt a Madonna or a whore. You might love your family, be politically active, love your hobbies and friends, masturbate, be attracted to women, be sexually curious, be cruel sometimes and fight etc. etc. etc. Somehow women understand this more about men - they understand you got masturbate to pornography and its because youre a sexually healthy male and not becuase your a "immoral slut whore." They understand that your sexuality, as is everybodys, is incredibly strong and complex. When you say that you suffer from retroactive jealousy because your otherwise perfect girlfriend had x amount of sex partners before you - what you really should be saying is that you cant accept the fact that your girlfriend, like you - isnt a madonna. That she has a sexuality and an attraction to males that can be at times, independent of her love for you. Im sure this rings a bell to you guys - Im sure you think at times - how can my girl who is so loving and caring - want to just **** some guy? If youve ever felt that way - then you need to step back into reality. Everyone who is psychologically healthy has sex and wants to have sex and gets good feelings from having sex. Otherwise none of us would exist. Thats right - your sweet old grandma that bakes you cookies and knits you blankets - at one point some guy got turned on enough for her and they had sex - and hopefully she moaned and came and loved it. The same thing goes for your beloved mother. Your inability to understand that and accept that (reality) is the root cause of your problem. Many of you would like to think of their girlfriends as replacement mommies, loving them unconditionally just like their mommy did, and thats why you desexualize them and its so hard and painful to imagine them getting ****ed by another man. But if you let go of your delusion - the reality of the situation is that it is true that your girlfriend is just like your mom - but in the opposite way that you think. If your mom hadnt been a sexual creature exactly like your girlfriend is- you wouldnt exist. And yes, her sexuality is independent of whether they went on a date first or 2 dates or she did this or that. Everyone has a sexuality - by obsessing over the circumstances of her sexuality acted out (like whether she did xyz after only knowing a man xyz amount of time) you are trying to figure out which categorry she belongs in - Maddona or Whore - as if the circumstances of her sexuality acted out in real life would change or reflect her actual sexuality that is the same strong drive in every healthy human being - and would therefore make it less threatening for you.

 

Would it ever cross YOUR mind to think how you could want to **** a girl and still be capable of love and a complex and attractive personality? Im not even talking about the blatant hippocrites who say that its ok for them to have sex quickly with a girl but the girl that did it with them is a whore. Im talking about the more subtle hippocrites - the "nice" guys and the "shy" guys who ask why they "waited" and "respected" their bodies if their girlfriends were out having sex and actually indulging in their natural sexual curiosity. I dare any one of you - please come on here and tell me that whenever you were single for whatever period of time - that you never ever masturbated. Im sure some of you have been single for periods of weeks, months, years. You never felt sexual during that time or masturbated? And if you did masturbate (or should I say when you did as its obvious that you did) - did you look at pornography? And if the answer to that is no - then what did you think about when you masturbated? Did you just think about an attractive woman or did you have to convince yourself to fall in love with her before you masturbated? Did you think one day of a family and growing old together with the same exact soulmate every time you masturbated? If you were a sexually and psychologically healthy male you had a sexual fantasy...and if you didnt masturbate or didnt fantasize and quickly masturbated like it was some sort of dirty need that had to be taken care of as quickly as possible - well then what kind of woman would really want to be with a man so devoid of the sexuality that is such a natural and enjoyable part of the human experience?

 

Ahh you say - but thats different - its a fantasy, I didnt actually "disrespect" myself by letting a woman touch me unless we went on x amount of dates first (or some other arbitrary condition that has nothing to do with our inherent sexuality yet in your mind makes the sexuality go from "immoral to "moral"). Well - you had to imagine it in your head taking place to experience the sexual feelings. If acting something out is immoral - why would it be perfectly natural and acceptable to fantasize that that same exact action is actually taking place? And the truth lies in the fact that while you were having sexual fantasies and masturbating - you are upset about the fact that your girlfriend didnt have to fantasize - and actually was living what you could only dream of. But the fact that you were the "nice" guy who didnt have alot of success with women - led you to rationalize that you were the one being "moral" by waiting for "love." When you realize your girlfriend didnt have the same insecurities and issues and so her past dosent match yours - you can then judge her by saying shes immoral - when in reality you are simply threatened because her past vs yours indicates that she has more sexual power than you do. Thats what leads the posters here to the completely illogical and irrational conclusion - "if you had alot of sex partners when you were single, then its a reflection of your sexual immorality and that means your going to cheat on someone when you are in a relationship." What they should really be saying is, "since she has more sexual power than I do, Im insecure and she may cheat on me because im not good enough" - As if I actually have to argue why the original argument is illogical - I have plenty of empirical evidence. I have alot of sex when I am single, and when I am in a relationship I dont cheat. Because I have experienced much, my girlfriend can reassure herself that I am picking her because I truly do want her and value her over anyone else I could choose. My "nice" guy friends who dont date around usually end up getting a gf when a girl chooses them. And these are the ones who I would suspect of cheating if they had the opportunity - because like many of you who claim to have "respected yourselves" by not having sex - they are not in control of their sexual lives like the way I or their girlfriends who they are jealous of and disrespect are.

 

So next time you come on here and want to make a post about your "Retroactive Jealousy" - please change the words and let us know that your problem is that you divide the world's females into Madonnas and Whores and your brain gets scrambled when you realize that they dont fit into those molds and are people like you and me.

[bazool]

Great post and totally true. I think the only way "Retroactive Jealousy" or perhaps in fact Madonna/whore complex can be solved is to really bite the bullet and accept that your girlfriend/fiancee/wife liked hooking up before you. It's as simple as that.

 

As long as there were no truly immoral instances like cheating or breaking people up then you simply have to ignore your ego and accept the past but KNOW that love is special for two reasons: Firstly, the sex within a loving relationship IS better than messy one nights and secondly, love IS about accepting someone and EVERYTHING that comes with them. If perhaps you're too stubborn to believe your girl IS actually the wonderful person you thought from the beginning then go ahead and take a high horse approach and "forgive them" in your head. See it as a test of your manhood to love someone no matter what they've done in their past that you agree or disagree with.

 

I personally have dealt with this issue with my still same girlfriend. Your mind takes turn after turn trying to rationalize why your lady did these things so you can maintain this "madonna" image in your head. Well, guess what? You cant because it doesn't exist. You HAVE to accept your partner as a human who was ALLOWED to make any choice they wanted as a horny single person when they wanted to. You may then become honestly jealous of the experience rather than judgemental and that's a good step because from there you can just see that your sex with her is quite obviously better than those experiences. At this point, you should see the obsessions and painful battles in your head that go nowhere slowly diminish.

[onlyicansee]

Very interesting, and very well written. I agree, with a lot of what you have said, and really take insight as to the root of this problem. But, what about the guys who have had a more diverse sexual past than their girls, but have this same issue? Im sure there are other reasons... But really great post, and I will definitely start looking into this issue.

[lamaman3]

Very interesting, and very well written. I agree, with a lot of what you have said, and really take insight as to the root of this problem. But, what about the guys who have had a more diverse sexual past than their girls, but have this same issue? Im sure there are other reasons... But really great post, and I will definitely start looking into this issue.

 

onlyicansee - thank you for your feedback. The men who have MORE sexual experience than their girlfriends, and still suffer from the Maddonna/Whore Complex do so for in fact the same underlying reasons as the guys who have LESS sexual experience than their girlfriends - they simply justify it differently.

 

The guys with less sexual experience of course use the idea of "morality" to convince themselves that since they were "sexually moral" by not sleeping with people and therefore dont want a girl who is/was "immoral." The guys with just as much if not more sexual experience can not use that argument to explain their discomfort so some will simply say "I'll sleep with a slut but I cant imagine one being the mother of my children (and by definition they feel like the term slut wouldnt apply to them for the exact same behavior simply because they are men). The more inquisitive and thoughtful among them will honestly acknowledge - "I know it makes no logical sense, but I still feel the same way."

 

Less sexual experience or more, morality/values argument or not - the underlying issue is the same. When these guys think of a girlfriend, future wife and mother of their children, they go towards images of their own mother - not the images that actually resulted in their creation - like their parents having hot sex - but rather images of their mother taking care of them and loving them unconditionally and maternally. You have no competition for your mothers love - she is totally devoted to you, would never leave you for another, never cheat on you - and will be there for you no matter what - and this is what they unrealistically look for in a girlfriend. Since sex is the bond of the relationships - acknowledging that your girlfriend is also sexual independent of her relationship with you makes this sexuality a threat to you. Thats why its important for these guys to figure out whether their girlfriend is a whore - the kind they either have one night stands with (or masturbate to in their fantasy if they are too "moral" for One Night Stands) - or a maddonna, who is loving and caring just like their mommy was to them. They dont come to the basic acknowledging that these categories are only in your own mind and like you, women are made up of a wide range of feelings and desires and that she is just like you and can be attracted to multiple people, whether you have had the ability to act on that attraction (the guys with sexual experience) or not (the "shy-moral" guys). If she had sex without love, than she is independently sexual and this threatens your image of her as unconditionally loving you - and you have to acknowledge the reality that no woman unconditionally loves you except your mother. This is what leads both men with more sexual experience and less to all experience the same uncomfortable feeling and obsession with the issue.

[AAlike]

Lamaman -

 

I think that there are two types of RJ - the comparative type (i.e. if they're so experienced how can I measure up) that both genders can experience equally (try going out with your girlfriend and bumping into an ex-hookup or ex-girlfriend and then tell me females don't get RJ lol), and the type that I think you are alluding to (i.e. my god, is my girl what would be considered a "slut"? what if mom knew?).

 

but the gist of your post is definitely accurate. the "she kisses my KIDS with that mouth" complex still pervades our culture. the "sugar and spice" brainwashing still affects a lot of us no matter how many episodes of Sex and the City we watch or how many Li'l Kim songs we listen to.

 

I think a lot of this is also a result of subconsciously putting ourselves in the moment and applying the thoughts that accompany male sexuality to it. I think that the origins of the madonna/whore complex may be rooted in those exact thoughts. Let me put it this way - I know what goes through my head during sex, especially sex with someone that I'm not in love with or a one-nighter...and let's just say it ain't generally "what a sweet, beautiful, interesting girl." the male sexual mind within the moment is very primal - the girl BECOMES that "whore" within that time frame. that's why so much of porn is filled with dirty talk and "slut" and whatever else. I don't think that female sexuality quite works that way, at least not to the same degree...not that girls are thinking about a guy's great personality and the prospect of him bringing them flowers during the act, but I don't think that they get off as much on the overt objectification.

 

so generally when we guys get so bent out of shape over this stuff, it's because we put ourselves in the "guy" frame of mind that is shaped by our own manifestation of sexuality, as well as formative years involving the influence of porno and "locker room boasting" so to speak. we think of it as "my girl was at some isolated point in time, some guy's whore" - and we fixate and fixate on that point in time. we don't ever worry about HER perspective. That was my big hangup with RJ - I instantly looked at the situation that bothered me from either the "guy" perspective, or from this BS "society" perspective. never from her perspective.

 

obviously anyone of sound mind realizes that this sensationalization of sex and the temporary objectification that goes along with it is simply a product of what turns us on. I remember several years ago that I attended a wedding of a longtime female friend of mine that i had casually dated for a little while but stayed in touch with past then. It was the first time that anyone that I had slept with had gotten married, and I wondered if the whole thing would be akward, or make me feel weird, or smug, or whatever. well, none of it happened. I think back on that a lot when I feel any sort of "RJ" problems.

[AAlike]

just to reinforce my point - think of how much porno is centered around "look at what this sweet girl is DOING!! can you BELIEVE this!!" - that aspect of the male sexuality is played up beyond belief.

[onlyicansee]

Man you guys are making my brain hurt... This is too much accurate information for me to process haha.. No only kidding. But really, that makes a lot of sense AA, really great points. And to be honest, of all the stuff I have read on this issue, the few posts here really have given a much greater perspective on this than anything else I have read.

 

Whoa... The human sexuality is very deep. I have never really thought internally about these things, just kind of went with my urges & feelings, and would let my mind guide me accordingly.

 

After reading some more on MWC (Madonna Whore Complex), I can say, unfortunately, that my gf has a lot of similar traits as my mother. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Maybe intentionally I found her, picked her out, and feel in love with her because she is someone I am trying to use to replace the unconditional love from my mother. I don't know, that might go a little deep for me. While some of the stuff seems it relates to me, some of it doesn't.

 

But, not seeing my girlfriend as a sexual being before me rings true. Holding her to some imaginary standard I am guilty of. Not realizing she is a human, who has made human mistakes, I need to understand. But on the other side of this spectrum, that AA pointed out, I also have feelings of inadequacy regarding our sexuality together.

 

While I understand that she is not fantasizing about other men, or wish I was another man, or wish I could make lover to her like her former sexual partners, I still have a personal issue with feeling less than her past. When I feel as though someone could have ****ed her better than me, it somehow transforms my self image to that of less than worthy of her sexuality. It makes me sick to think that I cant live up to her past, or that I cant please her like some other guy has, and I guess in some ways makes me feel as though our relationship is flawed, will always be flawed, and is destined to fail.

 

Also, at the same time, it somehow makes me feel less manly. It makes me feel more timid, both sexually and physically. This is probably something to do with me wanting to have control. Control over her sexuality, and control over her view of manliness. I read once, that a man never feels more macho than when he is at his most erect point, preparing to penetrate a woman. This also rings true for me.

 

The fact that I know she has been with men with bigger penises than me has somehow skewed my perception of how I think she rates my manliness. As if the size of ones penis explicitly measure how much of a man you are. which it doesn't, at all... But I suppose this is a more primal, more innate thought built into me. Every man wishes he had a larger penis, and I would assume most all men would feel somewhat jealous of another man who had sex with their woman whom had a larger penis.

 

I try to remind myself though, that these sorts of things do not matter, and these sorts of things only exist in my mind, and not hers. Realistically, I know that if one of her past partners who had a larger penis than myself and I were to both be standing naked in front of her, and she had to choose which one she would want to mate with, she would choose me and not the guy from her past. I try to remind myself that its about as equivalent as me having to choose between her, or an ex with bigger breasts. It wouldn't matter, and I definitely would not be going back to an ex no matter what isolated physical traits would be coined as more sexually attractive. Does that make sense?

 

Even though I know all of this, and I can somewhat wrap my head around it all, it doesn't stop that initial body shock, cringe effect, stomach turn, heart stabbing feeling I get when I picture her getting mounted by 20 something guys. Everything i just said, read, and tried to keep myself set on just fades away. I guess its something I will have to continually train myself to understand.

 

Please, I would like to hear more discussion on the MHC and other RJ type issues. This is a great thread, I hope more people contribute.

 

Thanks for reading

[AAlike]

 

Whoa... The human sexuality is very deep. I have never really thought internally about these things, just kind of went with my urges & feelings, and would let my mind guide me accordingly.

 

As do plenty of young people. that's another cause of this, when love hits you, the huge shift of encountering these feelings for the first time really makes you reevalute everything.

 

After reading some more on MWC (Madonna Whore Complex), I can say, unfortunately, that my gf has a lot of similar traits as my mother. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Maybe intentionally I found her, picked her out, and feel in love with her because she is someone I am trying to use to replace the unconditional love from my mother. I don't know, that might go a little deep for me. While some of the stuff seems it relates to me, some of it doesn't.

 

this is normal - I think that it's pretty well documented that guys want model their wives after their mothers in some way or another because only their mother occupies that same pedestal.

 

But, not seeing my girlfriend as a sexual being before me rings true. Holding her to some imaginary standard I am guilty of. Not realizing she is a human, who has made human mistakes, I need to understand. But on the other side of this spectrum, that AA pointed out, I also have feelings of inadequacy regarding our sexuality together.

 

careful here - you don't want to get caught up in seeing her choices as "mistakes". they are just choices.

[AAlike]

just to reinforce my point - think of how much porno is centered around "look at what this sweet girl is DOING!! can you BELIEVE this!!" - that aspect of the male sexuality is played up beyond belief.

 

haha the more I think about it, this must confound the living sh*t out of women - they see that their guy masturbates to "gutter sluts 3" or whatever, and think "I see that a dirty girl turns my guy on" - so they try to be that dirty girl without realizing that they are supposed to be the "Madonna".

 

it's funny because I think back to that fateful day when my GF told me that she was in a threesome. when she told me she said it in kind of a cavalier, "been there done that" ho-hum kind of tone that, at the time, floored me. like not only was she telling me this, she's acting like it's no big deal...does she NOT KNOW what she's saying??!?! meanwhile, as I found out later, SHE was thinking at the time "my life, including sexual history is so mundane compared to this guy...even though this attempted threesome thing was overhyped and akward, maybe I'll play it up so that this guy won't think that I'm some boring prude". meanwhile she had no idea that in my mind she had become Jenna Jameson! talk about miscommuncation!!

[onlyicansee]

Yea AA your right. Women must be completely confused with us. We sit here and get excited over some pretty hardcore stuff and then when a girl tries to be that for us, or has experienced something similar herself, we immediately deem them as sluts. I mean, no wonder women tell us to get over it, and no wonder we dont understand how to resolve this issue ourselves. Its all making sense now.

 

Honestly, I can remember touching on this subject in college, the MHC, but I thought it was some kind of extreme delusion where the man is in love with his mother thing. I never would have thought that I would fall into the same category... Man, I have some issues... But its ok, I can work them out.

 

I guess once I truly felt in love with this girl, and that I would want to marry her, I began to try and move her from this "whore" category into the "Madonna" category, and since then have been flip flopping like crazy. Really, she does not need to be in any category, label, or judgment. She is just another person, and her sexual actions before me were part of her being a sexual being. It doesn't make her a whore, or a slut.

 

But, it still leaves me with a turning stomach... Ugh..

[Evenal]

It's funny that I read this and think how can this apply to me. I am homosexual and my boyfriend and I both get RJ of eachother. The thoughts of my boyfriend having a more sexual past bother me so much sometimes. I am still a virgin, though have been in a situation where I was somewhat taken advantage of but thankfully got out of it quick. He has questioned that so manyy times, even though i told him the story of how it went down over and over again. He will use it against me rarely if we are having an argument about sex(lol the usual "why are you never horny when i am etc"). He actually told me he is GLAD i am a virgin still and wanted his bf for life to be a virgin. My boyfriend and I are very open with eachother about everything, including our not so bright pasts, the fact that he has done a lot of sexual things with people in strange places(to me at least) when he was a bit younger(not that he was extremely overpromiscuous but he had sexual experiences in places such as his backyard and at a nightclub and his highschool gym) just really tears me up for no reason, because I know where his heart is now, but i cannot help think that the man that I love so much could have ever given himself up sexually to other people BEFORE me, the person he finally chose to be with blah lol. I'm just trying to take OP's post into consideration for a homosexual relationship and how 2 men can both be RJ of eachother.

 

PS AAlike i felt the same way when my bf was telling me about his experiences i was like wtf are u a porn star? lmao still bugs me tho

[norajane]

I think it should be renamed the maddona /slut complex. Whores are paid and aren't doing it for fun or because they enjoy it; it's a job.

 

Sluts, on the other hand, are having sex because they enjoy sex and men and that's highly threatening or unappealing to some people.

 

It's a shame that those who suffer from rj or whatever don't seem to understand that your partner doesn't owe you a past you approve of. Your partner doesn't owe you that - it's not an entitlement! Your partner is your partner, presumably, because you two thought, hey, here's a cool person I like to be with and would like to live life with...and like to have sex with.

 

If you can't deal with who she is, a sexually expressive, sexually interested woman, then you can't be her partner. By being so emotionally wrecked that you can't stand it, you are essentially blaming your issues with sexuality on her - you are disapproving, shaming her, punishing her. Even if you don't do it overtly, it is soooooo there between you, and it's making her feel like crap.

 

You are punishing her for being sexual when you stay in a relationship where you can think of nothing else but her sexual past and it makes you miserable. She doesn't owe you a past you are comfortable with. She's not with you because she owes you - she's with you because she loves you and wants to be with you. If that's not enough for you, do her a favor and walk away. Don't drag it out for months or years. She deserves someone who thinks it's cool that she is into exploring her sexuality, and who sees it as a great opportunity to explore with her, not someone who is torn up about it.

 

And you are not doing yourself any favors by tormenting yourself with it for so long. You are missing out on beautiful moments in your life - you have a lover who loves you! What is the point of love if not to enrich your life? Let it enrich you, or let it go.

[InLimbo2]

I'm a woman, and I think it doesn't confuse us at all as long as we aren't with a man confused with the madonna/whore thing or RJ or whatever you want to call it. In a healthy normal relationship - in general - we understand that men want a lady in the living room and a whore in the bedroom - as long as it's only his bedroom we're doin it in. My man loves what I do in the bedroom, but he's ok with the fact that I had to have learned it somewhere before him - otherwise, it would be pretty hard to explain my two children....

 

 

haha the more I think about it, this must confound the living sh*t out of women - they see that their guy masturbates to "gutter sluts 3" or whatever, and think "I see that a dirty girl turns my guy on" - so they try to be that dirty girl without realizing that they are supposed to be the "Madonna".