I'm back and need to brain-storm

[complicatedlife]

Hey there, LS - it's been awhile, though I am always around lurking.

 

I've had some really great advice, suggestions, and insight from many of you in the past, and I'm hoping you guys can help me out, once again.

 

Recap: I was involved with someone who was separated and encouraged him to go back home and work things out, and he did go back. We stopped seeing each other and tried to remain friends, and for the most part, we were successful. We eventually fell into a full fledged affair a few months after he went back (they were in MC and are still in MC). We stopped the affair early September. So today:

 

1. We started up again last month, but this time I decided not to make his situation my problem - and I also decided to date (not sleep with anyone, just date if I feel the urge to) - and I have found that this makes me a heck of a lot saner in my dealings with him.

 

2. My concern now is that I am wondering if I am becoming too "hopeful" - he's FINALLY saying that he and the kids will be okay if they split up; he's no longer extremely adamant that he needs to stay in the house. And one year of counseling has not helped - they are in the same place that they were before they separated. He's decided that he and his W need to have a conversation about splitting up or coming to some kind of resolution with between them and also with the children that is acceptable to both; translation: he is a little afraid of any spiteful retaliation on her part and he is also concerned about her ongoing issues (cannot disclose this part, sorry!).

 

He's even told me about how he's thought about splitting the assets, house, etc. The only problem is that the two times that he has tried to talk with her about it, she starts a huge fight - and the last time it ended up with them being tense in front of the kids and he HATES that. In any event, am I wrong to feel like there may be some light at the end of the tunnel? Tell me your thoughts - just for the record, I have never doubted his love and care for me, I know he cares - especially because he is the one that ended things when we broke up even though I didn't want him to.

 

Thanks in advance,

CL

[Lizzie60]

Looks like he's already started the procedures to leave her for good. Just let him work his things out.. don't pressure him or anything.. just be there if he needs support.

 

Good luck!

[complicatedlife]

Looks like he's already started the procedures to leave her for good. Just let him work his things out.. don't pressure him or anything.. just be there if he needs support.

 

Good luck!

 

But don't you think that he should be more assertive with her about that very important conversation?

[noforgiveness]

But don't you think that he should be more assertive with her about that very important conversation?

 

exactly saying he doesn't ;ile to talk because of tension with the kids. Well I can't imagine the kids are around 24/7. He can even have this convo in MC.

 

Let him go till he lets her go. Do you really think it's fair he is seeing you while in mc with her? She thinks he is trying to work on the marriage while he is playing a game. Imagine the tension if he gets caught with you. Imagine the children then. He already said the kids will be ok so why not leave now instead of risking getting caught cheating.

 

He's still on the fence.

[complicatedlife]

exactly saying he doesn't ;ile to talk because of tension with the kids. Well I can't imagine the kids are around 24/7. He can even have this convo in MC.

 

Let him go till he lets her go. Do you really think it's fair he is seeing you while in mc with her? She thinks he is trying to work on the marriage while he is playing a game.

 

Clarification: I didn't say he doesn't want to talk because of tension withthe kids. What I said, or meant to say was that when he tried to have a conversation about splitting up, it turned into a big fight and the fight carried over an extension, if you will, that left them being sarcastic and being mean to each other in front of the kids. He is going to bring it up again - but he was sharing with me that he's afraid of the hostility afterwards. Remember, W has issues.

 

In regards to MC - he told her months ago that he is only going because it helps them tolerate one another, and nothing more and she is fine with that. Their counselor does not believe in divorce, she believes in saving the marriage at all costs unless there is abuse. My MM does NOT want to have this conversation in front of the MC because of that and I cannot say that I blame him.

[noforgiveness]

In regards to MC - he told her months ago that he is only going because it helps them tolerate one another, and nothing more and she is fine with that. Their counselor does not believe in divorce, she believes in saving the marriage at all costs unless there is abuse. My MM does NOT want to have this conversation in front of the MC because of that and I cannot say that I blame him.

 

Then obviously his wife thinks they are saving this thing because of the marriage councellor. Why would he not see one that would help them separate? Why would he not level with her that he doesn't think the mc is right for them? Of course there will be tension. He has to know and expect that. He must have had some convo with the kids to say he knows they will be fine if they separate?

 

Sorry you need to let him go and clean up his mess first. Especially because you don't want to end up in the center of that mess.

[2sunny]

Clarification: I didn't say he doesn't want to talk because of tension withthe kids. What I said, or meant to say was that when he tried to have a conversation about splitting up, it turned into a big fight and the fight carried over an extension, if you will, that left them being sarcastic and being mean to each other in front of the kids. He is going to bring it up again - but he was sharing with me that he's afraid of the hostility afterwards. Remember, W has issues.

 

In regards to MC - he told her months ago that he is only going because it helps them tolerate one another, and nothing more and she is fine with that. Their counselor does not believe in divorce, she believes in saving the marriage at all costs unless there is abuse. My MM does NOT want to have this conversation in front of the MC because of that and I cannot say that I blame him.

 

honey - you are being fed a crock of lies.

 

if he wanted to leave he would tell her - matter of fact and not worry about a fight. what would he expect? her to jump with joy?

 

come on - his criticism about his wife is mean spirited, at best. words used like "hostility, tolerate and her issues" is not a very kind way to speak of someone you've shared your life with.

 

these qualities obviously weren't bad enough when he decided to marry her... only convenient to bring up now that he wants you to feel sorry enough for him to sleep with him.

 

he's not going to leave her because he has his cake and is ... well "you know."

 

he'll just tell you enough bad stuff about her so that you will continue trying to "rescue" him from her... oh yah, that makes you feel superior to the wife and more important in your eyes.

[Mino]

honey - you are being fed a crock of lies.

 

if he wanted to leave he would tell her - matter of fact and not worry about a fight. what would he expect? her to jump with joy?

 

come on - his criticism about his wife is mean spirited, at best. words used like "hostility, tolerate and her issues" is not a very kind way to speak of someone you've shared your life with.

 

these qualities obviously weren't bad enough when he decided to marry her... only convenient to bring up now that he wants you to feel sorry enough for him to sleep with him.

 

he's not going to leave her because he has his cake and is ... well "you know."

 

he'll just tell you enough bad stuff about her so that you will continue trying to "rescue" him from her... oh yah, that makes you feel superior to the wife and more important in your eyes.

I disagree.... mine went to mc, and the mc led them to seperation, because he saw there was nothing left in the m... they ended mc and he moved out very shortly after. Wierd that the mc does not believe in D. guess he is looking out for his own pocket and racking up the session fees to by a new mercedes, maybe they should find a different mc...

[complicatedlife]

Then obviously his wife thinks they are saving this thing because of the marriage councellor. Why would he not see one that would help them separate? Why would he not level with her that he doesn't think the mc is right for them? Of course there will be tension. He has to know and expect that. He must have had some convo with the kids to say he knows they will be fine if they separate?

 

Again, she DOES NOT think they are saving anything - I mentioned in a previous post that AT THIS POINT she knows/is aware/accepts that he is only going because it allows them to "get along enough" - that is the only purpose it serves now, and she agrees with that - so yes, he has leveled with her about MC. The W is the one who chose that counselor as the counselor came highly recommended. Once again, I think everyone knows that after a serious conversation there may be tension. However, I don't think he's wrong to feel like it's okay for them to be upset with one another, but they don't have to behave nasty to each other in front of the children as a result.

[complicatedlife]

honey - you are being fed a crock of lies.

 

if he wanted to leave he would tell her - matter of fact and not worry about a fight. what would he expect? her to jump with joy?

 

come on - his criticism about his wife is mean spirited, at best. words used like "hostility, tolerate and her issues" is not a very kind way to speak of someone you've shared your life with.

 

these qualities obviously weren't bad enough when he decided to marry her... only convenient to bring up now that he wants you to feel sorry enough for him to sleep with him.

 

he's not going to leave her because he has his cake and is ... well "you know."

 

he'll just tell you enough bad stuff about her so that you will continue trying to "rescue" him from her... oh yah, that makes you feel superior to the wife and more important in your eyes.

 

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that I am being lied to. I have never caught him being dishonest with me - if anything, he is just like me - honest to a fault. And, trust me, I have tried to catch him out there in lies and I never did.

 

He did tell her their relationship is not working and she chose to argue about it instead of talk about it. While he did not expect her to jump with joy, he DID expect a conversation, not a yelling match.

 

I fail to see where he criticized her? He has NEVER criticized her to me EVER. He has only criticized their relationship. He continually says she's a good woman and a good mother but they don't love each other anymore. It IS hostile to not want to talk, but to yell, and to continue arguing in front of the kids. And, yes, he DOES tolerate her isssues as well as take them into consideration - it is a legitimate, documented, and ongoing mental issue that I cannot disclose here on this forum. So please don't get it misconstrued - he speaks very nicely about her and says he always wants good things for her. I wouldn't have feelings for someone who thought any less about someone they married.

 

And, just so you know, because I can see that you don't know the full story, he was my platonic friend for 8 months before he separated and then we became involved when he legally separated and moved out - I knew about their issues and how things were between them before I had a relationship with him. And then I DID have a full and open relationship with him and there are things that I know, and things that I can't be lied to about because I was witness to a lot of what went on. Did he go back? Yes - and I encouraged it. Did he try to make it work and stay away from me? Yes - and I went right back to being platonic with him even though it was hard. Did we start an affair? Yes - after he tried with her and with counseling for several months and realized he doesn't desire the relationship anymore. He decided to stay for the kids, and now he is realizing that that may not be the best thing to do for them or for himself and the W.

[complicatedlife]

I disagree.... mine went to mc, and the mc led them to seperation, because he saw there was nothing left in the m... they ended mc and he moved out very shortly after. Wierd that the mc does not believe in D. guess he is looking out for his own pocket and racking up the session fees to by a new mercedes, maybe they should find a different mc...

 

Believe it or not, there are quite a few counselors that don't believe in divorce unless there's abuse and will not give give counsel on divorce. Once, when MM said to the counselor, "We still have so much hostility and resentment towards each other that it seems like it won't be able to be resolved" the counselor said, "Well, at least you two are now in the same house." Now I thought THAT was crazy! From what I remember of psychology, a counselor will try everything to help a relationship before suggesting a separation or divorce, but if and when they finally do suggest it, they really believe that there is no hope.

[frannie]

He's even told me about how he's thought about splitting the assets, house, etc. The only problem is that the two times that he has tried to talk with her about it, she starts a huge fight - and the last time it ended up with them being tense in front of the kids and he HATES that. In any event, am I wrong to feel like there may be some light at the end of the tunnel? Tell me your thoughts...

 

I am seeing "thinking about" and "trying"... and a lot of excuses. Not saying there's no light at the end of the tunnel... just wondering how long the tunnel might be.

 

The thing is... how can we ever know? And do we just keep walking towards the light, or what? Let me know when you find out

[noforgiveness]

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that I am being lied to. I have never caught him being dishonest with me - if anything, he is just like me - honest to a fault. And, trust me, I have tried to catch him out there in lies and I never did.

 

Honest to a fault? So does his wife know the real reason her marriage isn't working? Granted it wasn't working before you but you will be front and center as to the reason if she finds out. Are you prepared for that? How will his kids handle that? Why would he move out and leave his kids with a person with mental probblems? Does she know about you. If not that man is an excellent liar. Lying to his family daily.

[jasminetea]

Can you not see how many inconsistencies there are in what you've said?

 

If you dont' want him to split with his wife, what's the problem? Why the 'hope'? Why is he in MC if he has no intention of staying with her? Why would he got to MC if its not designed to help them find a way of splitting amicably? You've been going backwards and forwards with this guy for, what? A year? More? And he's as honest is the day is long? How many excuses has he used for not leaving?

 

And finally - you started the affair up again - but you're 'not going to make his situation your problem'??? You're posting about it!

 

You need some major space from him, it'd seem to me. But I'm guessing he's got you so sewn up, you won't be able to take it.

[noforgiveness]

Can you not see how many inconsistencies there are in what you've said?

 

If you dont' want him to split with his wife, what's the problem? Why the 'hope'? Why is he in MC if he has no intention of staying with her? Why would he got to MC if its not designed to help them find a way of splitting amicably? You've been going backwards and forwards with this guy for, what? A year? More? And he's as honest is the day is long? How many excuses has he used for not leaving?

 

And finally - you started the affair up again - but you're 'not going to make his situation your problem'??? You're posting about it!

 

You need some major space from him, it'd seem to me. But I'm guessing he's got you so sewn up, you won't be able to take it.

exactly, they wouldn't be in marraige councelling to get along better. They would be in family councelling helping each other and the children cope with the break up of the family.

 

Complicatedlife I hope you are not getting insulted by these posts. You said you wanted to brainstorm. Brainstorming does not occur when everyone agrees with you.

[complicatedlife]

I am seeing "thinking about" and "trying"... and a lot of excuses. Not saying there's no light at the end of the tunnel... just wondering how long the tunnel might be.

 

The thing is... how can we ever know? And do we just keep walking towards the light, or what? Let me know when you find out

 

Hiya, Frannie - I'm not trying to walk to it anymore - but I welcome it if it comes, and, yes, of course, hope that it does. I was and am accepting of whatever this thing we have is without any expectations as I did before, but with the new way he's thinking and some changes (can't say as some things I need to keep private) he's made has made me start to wonder because even though I'm cool with things, I DO love him, so yes, I do wonder if it means there really is going to be a change.

[complicatedlife]

Honest to a fault? So does his wife know the real reason her marriage isn't working? Granted it wasn't working before you but you will be front and center as to the reason if she finds out. Are you prepared for that? How will his kids handle that? Why would he move out and leave his kids with a person with mental probblems? Does she know about you. If not that man is an excellent liar. Lying to his family daily.

 

Yes, I believe that so far, for the most part, he has been honest with ME. Has he been honest with HER? Of course not. But, NF, you have to really read what I am trying to say to you - I have never said that he wants to move out and leave his kids - he does NOT want to leave his kids with her, actually. He wants them, and he wants to make sure that she is going to be okay, too. I can't deny that you are right about him lying to his family everyday and I have told him that as well. As much as I defend him, I also am, in spite of my feelings, very aware of what he does do that is NOT right, and I speak on it.

[noforgiveness]

I think you are going to be an ow for a long time and it saddens me that you are going to waste part of your life on a man that won't get off the fence. Knock him off the fence. Go no contact until he stops playing both of you. He needs to make a descision not keep jerking you, his wife and his kids around.

[complicatedlife]

 

If you dont' want him to split with his wife, what's the problem? Why the 'hope'? Why is he in MC if he has no intention of staying with her? Why would he got to MC if its not designed to help them find a way of splitting amicably? You've been going backwards and forwards with this guy for, what? A year? More? And he's as honest is the day is long? How many excuses has he used for not leaving?

Jasmine - did you read all of my posts here? How can they be going to MC as a way to help them split if he has recently decided that that is what he wants to do and he needs to discuss it with her first?

 

And finally - you started the affair up again - but you're 'not going to make his situation your problem'??? You're posting about it!

No - his situation is NOT my problem. That means I am not helping him try to sort out what he should do or what he needs to do about HIS/THEIR marriage. I am posting here because I wanted some people who have helped me in the past to help me figure out if this new turn of events is a positive thing.

 

You need some major space from him, it'd seem to me. But I'm guessing he's got you so sewn up, you won't be able to take it.

If sewn up means that I love him, I'll take that because it's true. But loving him doesn't mean that I am unrealistic or blind - that's why I'm here posting.

[jasminetea]

If sewn up means that I love him, I'll take that because it's true. But loving him doesn't mean that I am unrealistic or blind - that's why I'm here posting.

 

Sweetheart, I'm sorry. It really does mean you're unrealistic. Go on, give him the opportunity to prove to you he loves you and wants to be with you.

 

Seems to me that if you don't pressurise him, he'll just have his cake etc. Seems to me that if you do pressurise him, you'll never be sure his commitment is given 100% freely. Seems to me the only way of being sure his love is for real and his commitment is to you and your relationship with him is to go your own way and let him do the chasing. If that's what he decides.

 

No, sewn up means he's got you thinking this is all you deserve.

[jwi71]

Complicated-

 

This is easy. You are and always will be the OW. You will not be his W. He is perfectly willing to stay "for the kids" and "tolerate her". You will be the secret dish on the side.

 

Does his W know you exist? Does his W know of your R with her H?

[complicatedlife]

exactly, they wouldn't be in marraige councelling to get along better. They would be in family councelling helping each other and the children cope with the break up of the family.

 

Complicatedlife I hope you are not getting insulted by these posts. You said you wanted to brainstorm. Brainstorming does not occur when everyone agrees with you.

 

Ok, again, remember the therapy is currently the same because he has just decided that he wants to leave the marriage. But he DOES say that it helps them get along better as without the MC, they are both bad at controlling their anger and resentments about their situation.

 

NF - I am not getting insulted at all - I posted on a public forum and I expect that not everyone will think or feel as I do, nor will we always agree. I'm grateful to anyone who posts on this thread to try to offer their opinion when it's truly being done with concern for me.

[complicatedlife]

No, sewn up means he's got you thinking this is all you deserve.

 

On the contrary, I don't think it's ALL I deserve and that is why I date - I am not waiting around for a happy ending. Do I HOPE for one? Yes. But I'm not putting my dating life on hold for him anymore. So, we will have to agree to disagree, my Jasmine Tea.

[complicatedlife]

Complicated-

 

This is easy. You are and always will be the OW. You will not be his W. He is perfectly willing to stay "for the kids" and "tolerate her". You will be the secret dish on the side.

 

Does his W know you exist? Does his W know of your R with her H?

 

Actually, I DON'T want to be his wife - nor anyone else's! I'm really not sure I believe in that particular institution for myself. But my philosophy on marraige could be a whole different thread, so I'll stop here about it.

 

Yes, she now knows that I exist. She didn't when they were separated because he was advised by a psychologist that he should wait. He actually didn't agree with that theory and had a meeting to tell her about us but I told him not to - that I agreed with the therapist - he should wait. But she knows now - has known for 2 months or so. She doesn't care, I suppose - I don't know her, but it seems to me that she wants to preserve the marriage for the "institution" only. But, as I said, I don't know her and she has never contacted me.

[noforgiveness]

On the contrary, I don't think it's ALL I deserve and that is why I date - I am not waiting around for a happy ending. Do I HOPE for one? Yes. But I'm not putting my dating life on hold for him anymore. So, we will have to agree to disagree, my Jasmine Tea.

 

you're in love with him so yes you are. You are putting your dating life aside for him whether you intentionally do or not. Your eyes are not as wide open to other men when you are in love.