I'm back and need to brain-storm

[complicatedlife]

you're in love with him so yes you are. You are putting your dating life aside for him whether you intentionally do or not. Your eyes are not as wide open to other men when you are in love.

 

You know, there may be some truth in what you have written above. But I am doing what is emotionally and mentally accepting to me - give a girl some time - just as he needs to make decisions, so do I, and I acknowledge that. I'm actually surprised that I can go on a date and have a good time - I would never have been able to do it last year. So, I think I'm making progress, albeit slow, in the right direction.

[Owl]

Something to consider...

 

A huge contributing factor to one of the critical reasons that MC has failed is simple...you.

 

The fact that he's having an affair...and hiding and lying about it...especially during MC...is a key reason why MC is totally useless for him at this point.

 

If he's not COMPLETELY honest...its worse than useless.

 

Does his wife know about his relationship with you? Is this part of their discussions at MC?

 

If no to either question...there ya go.

 

MC stands absolutely ZERO chance of helping them solve anything in their marriage while you're in the picture, and he continues to lie (by ommission) while they're in counseling.

 

What he's holding back plays a HUGE factor in what he's thinking/feeling...and why he is acting and responding the way he is. But without that key piece of information...there is NOTHING that the MC can do about the situation.

 

He needs to divorce, or break it off with you completely.

 

Those are the only two options here...and wasting time and money in MC while he's still with you is just that...a waste of time and money.

[complicatedlife]

Something to consider...

 

A huge contributing factor to one of the critical reasons that MC has failed is simple...you.

 

The fact that he's having an affair...and hiding and lying about it...especially during MC...is a key reason why MC is totally useless for him at this point.

 

If he's not COMPLETELY honest...its worse than useless.

 

Does his wife know about his relationship with you? Is this part of their discussions at MC?

 

If no to either question...there ya go.

 

MC stands absolutely ZERO chance of helping them solve anything in their marriage while you're in the picture, and he continues to lie (by ommission) while they're in counseling.

 

What he's holding back plays a HUGE factor in what he's thinking/feeling...and why he is acting and responding the way he is. But without that key piece of information...there is NOTHING that the MC can do about the situation.

 

He needs to divorce, or break it off with you completely.

 

Those are the only two options here...and wasting time and money in MC while he's still with you is just that...a waste of time and money.

 

You always post very reflective thoughts.

 

She did not know about me before but she does now. She doesn't discuss it - she just doesn't want anyone to find out about me - that's her only concern. She won't discuss it with HIM much less in therapy. Maybe she does in her own IC.

 

To answer your other question, when he moved back home we became platonic with lite contact - maybe a call or email every other day as opposed to 2-3 times per day. His MC was actually not doing too badly the first month or two of his return, but it declined rapidly afterwards - and we were still platonic at the time. But maybe it IS because of me because we were still in (limited) contact - not sure about this.

 

However, I DO agree that he should divorce or break things off with me.

[jwi71]

Then what are you hopeful for? What do you want from him if not marriage? If you are not going to marry him - why does it matter is he is already married?

 

If you could script the ending - what would you write?

[whichwayisup]

The thing is, in his mind (and I could be wrong about this) why should he divorce since you aren't interested in getting married? That could be one of many reasons why he's still not divorcing her.

 

Another thing, he is NOT doing her or his kids any favours by staying and doing MC. All that does is prolong everyone's pain..The sooner he gets out and divorces, the sooner everyone can heal and accept things. Right now, one shoe is 'about to drop' and it's adding alot of stress.

 

I know you want to believe every word he tells you, and that you have so much faith in him, BUT you are not around during their conversations, so you don't know if he's giving her small bits of hope that things will work out eventually between them. Intentionally or not, in HER mind, doing the counselling could be a way of keeping them together, even though he is telling you it's a way out.

[complicatedlife]

Then what are you hopeful for? What do you want from him if not marriage? If you are not going to marry him - why does it matter is he is already married?

 

If you could script the ending - what would you write?

 

 

This is why I have never asked him to leave - in any event, he needs to do it for HIM and the kids - not for me, even if I did want marriage- which I am not sure I want - the jury's still out on that.

 

I want to be able to be open about the relationship and not have to hide. That is what I hope for - to be in a "normal" situation.

[jwi71]

This is why I have never asked him to leave - in any event, he needs to do it for HIM and the kids - not for me, even if I did want marriage- which I am not sure I want - the jury's still out on that.

 

I want to be able to be open about the relationship and not have to hide. That is what I hope for - to be in a "normal" situation.

 

OK.

 

From his perspective what does he get and what does he lose?

He loses: family, money (child support, alimony), etc.

He gains: a girlfriend.

 

A girlfriend. Not much commitment there. I mean, why would he leave the "tolerable security" for a woman who could up and leave at a moments notice? With no strings attached? You are asking him to take a big risk for you and you are not reciprocating an equivalent risk. It seems far better to be tolerable at home and have his "excitement" on the side.

 

One question: if she knows about you and your relationship with him - why still be secretive? Bring it into the open. Nothing to lose at this point.

[complicatedlife]

The thing is, in his mind (and I could be wrong about this) why should he divorce since you aren't interested in getting married? That could be one of many reasons why he's still not divorcing her.

I'll have to think on this - I never thought about that.

 

Intentionally or not, in HER mind, doing the counselling could be a way of keeping them together, even though he is telling you it's a way out.

This is something I will have to think on as well - thanks for pointing both things out.

[whichwayisup]

You're welcome. And it is stuff you DO need to think about, because if he is going to change his life for you, he more than likely IS looking for more than you being his girlfriend.

 

If you weren't in his life, would he still be divorcing his wife? If you left his life now, ended it with him, do you think he'd still leave? Or would he decide to stay, settle for the kids. I ask because WHY he is leaving? His wife is mentally ill (I take it she has depression or something along those lines) and even if he ISN'T saying it, he still feels some sort of responsibility of looking after her, even if he isn't 'feeling inlove' with her. She is the mother of his kids, and that bond they share isn't going to go away ever.

[complicatedlife]

OK.

 

From his perspective what does he get and what does he lose?

He loses: family, money (child support, alimony), etc.

He gains: a girlfriend.

 

A girlfriend. Not much commitment there. I mean, why would he leave the "tolerable security" for a woman who could up and leave at a moments notice? With no strings attached? You are asking him to take a big risk for you and you are not reciprocating an equivalent risk. It seems far better to be tolerable at home and have his "excitement" on the side.

 

One question: if she knows about you and your relationship with him - why still be secretive? Bring it into the open. Nothing to lose at this point.

 

But.....he shouldn't be leaving because he would have something with me - he should be leaving because in spite of me, that is what would truly be best for HIM. Isn't that the healthiest way to end a relationship/marriage? Maybe that's why he gets very quiet when I say I don't want to get married because it seems like so many people become unhappy when they take that step.

 

The secretive part I am not very clear on. Here's what I know: He knows that she knows about me now because she checked his texts back in August and September when he left his phone at home- he doesn't delete anything. All she said was, "You should be careful what you leave around for people to see" and then he said he tried to talk to her about it and she started a fight, saying that he always wants to talk when she has to do something for the kids (according to him, that is what she says most of the time when he tries to talk outside of MC - she tells him to "save it for the session"). Then he said she told him once, "Whatever you've done that's bad, it's okay to tell me but noone else because I am the only one who will understand." So, he gathers that as long as noone knows about the "accepted situation" she doesn't care.

[whichwayisup]

But.....he shouldn't be leaving because he would have something with me - he should be leaving because in spite of me, that is what would truly be best for HIM.

Exactly. And that's why people are told to leave MM/MW completely alone, go NC until the D is final. The longer you stay, the more likely he'll keep things as they are.

 

How long could you hang in being the OW in his life? Sooner or later YOU need to step up and make a choice too. Even if you don't want to be married to him, I'm sure you want him all for yourself and not have him like things are now.

[complicatedlife]

You're welcome. And it is stuff you DO need to think about, because if he is going to change his life for you, he more than likely IS looking for more than you being his girlfriend.

 

If you weren't in his life, would he still be divorcing his wife? If you left his life now, ended it with him, do you think he'd still leave? Or would he decide to stay, settle for the kids. I ask because WHY he is leaving? His wife is mentally ill (I take it she has depression or something along those lines) and even if he ISN'T saying it, he still feels some sort of responsibility of looking after her, even if he isn't 'feeling inlove' with her. She is the mother of his kids, and that bond they share isn't going to go away ever.

 

I asked him if he would still want to leave if I wasn't around. He said he would still be torn about the same things.

 

You are right about his wife, and also right that he does feel responsibility of looking after her - this is the next thing after the children that he struggles with. You've got great intuition to be able to catch that without me saying it outright.

[jwi71]

But.....he shouldn't be leaving because he would have something with me - he should be leaving because in spite of me, that is what would truly be best for HIM. Isn't that the healthiest way to end a relationship/marriage? Maybe that's why he gets very quiet when I say I don't want to get married because it seems like so many people become unhappy when they take that step.

 

He gets very quiet because he is leaving for you. He gets quiet because he hears "you give up "everything" for me and I will be you're girlfriend. I also reserve the right to dump you at a moment's notice leaving you alone and wondering why you divorced your wife and left your children." You marry him and at least you have some skin in the game - just a girlfriend and you offer little more than you offer him now. This seems more about you them him.

 

You cannot be his lover and his counselor. You only confuse him. So stop.

 

 

The secretive part I am not very clear on. Here's what I know: He knows that she knows about me now because she checked his texts back in August and September when he left his phone at home- he doesn't delete anything. All she said was, "You should be careful what you leave around for people to see" and then he said he tried to talk to her about it and she started a fight, saying that he always wants to talk when she has to do something for the kids (according to him, that is what she says most of the time when he tries to talk outside of MC - she tells him to "save it for the session"). Then he said she told him once, "Whatever you've done that's bad, it's okay to tell me but noone else because I am the only one who will understand." So, he gathers that as long as noone knows about the "accepted situation" she doesn't care.

 

You are a secret if you cannot call his home number anytime. You are a secret if you cannot pick him up at his house. You are a secret if you cannot hold his hand at his favorite haunts.

 

I have seen nothing that indicates that his W knows the true nature of your R. Its all hearsay.

[complicatedlife]

Even if you don't want to be married to him, I'm sure you want him all for yourself and not have him like things are now.

 

You're right. I did want to be married to him at one point but many things have changed for me - not because of him - other reasons - that have made me feel very wary about marriage. The sad thing is that my own parents have been married - happily - for 40 years. But - they are of a very different generation; things are so different, and people are so different now.

[whichwayisup]

He said he would still be torn about the same things.

 

And chances are, if you weren't in the picture, he'd just settle and stay at home, continue to live life as he is...Or he'd be in an affair with someone else.

 

Put it this way, if she didn't have depression (and it does take it's toll on a marriage, some survive it, some don't) I'm betting their marriage would be much better and he wouldn't be cheating on her.

 

I'm glad I'm making you think! And that I can pick up on what you're not saying..

[complicatedlife]

He gets very quiet because he is leaving for you. He gets quiet because he hears "you give up "everything" for me and I will be you're girlfriend. I also reserve the right to dump you at a moment's notice leaving you alone and wondering why you divorced your wife and left your children." You marry him and at least you have some skin in the game - just a girlfriend and you offer little more than you offer him now. This seems more about you them him.

 

You cannot be his lover and his counselor. You only confuse him. So stop.

 

 

 

 

You are a secret if you cannot call his home number anytime. You are a secret if you cannot pick him up at his house. You are a secret if you cannot hold his hand at his favorite haunts.

 

I have seen nothing that indicates that his W knows the true nature of your R. Its all hearsay.

 

I am not his counselor - I don't advise him. If he asks for me for my opinion, sometimes I give it and sometimes I say that I would rather not say. When he shares things with me and he is just WRONG, I tell him. But, maybe you're right - something else for me to think on.

 

I believe him that she knows. There are other reasons why that I can't disclose here for their privacy - but trust me, she does, and remember, even if I didn't have the certain proof that I have that she DOES know, this has been going on and off for some time so he has no reason to lie about it - telling me she knows doesn't benefit him in any way.

[whichwayisup]

She may know, but she doesn't "know-know"... And chances are, he's totally downplaying it too.

[complicatedlife]

She may know, but she doesn't "know-know"...

 

Please explain what you mean by this - I'm a little lost, especially because I mentioned that I have proof that she knows but I can't say it here publicly - you're welcome to PM me if you like and I'll share that way.

[2sure]

This is not good. I read the whole thread and went back to your previous posts. Clearly you love this man and I'm sure he cares for you too. Either he is a cake eater and really wants no change or he doesnt have the back bone to either leave or speak up to his wife. As you said yourself, children, finances, assets are things that can be settled. But this isn't even an issue yet.

 

His wife found texts from August/September. You state you were not in the affair for most of that, so it is quite possible he was truthful and told her you were at that point you were just friends. While this would be an acknowledgement and upsetting - it isnt saying she knows. If it is possible that she knows about you and has decided to stay with the M anyway...why would he change anything?? If MC is making it easier to communicate, and improving life for his kids...why would he make a change??

 

He says he wants to leave the marriage, but it is difficult to tell his wife. Actually, he says that he is unable to tell his wife because she gets mad...please. And he can't bring it up in MC because the counselor doesn't talk about Divorce either? So, he would like to leave his W but since she wont let him discuss it, his hands are tied. Its not his fault, he isnt the bad guy here. He would like to make a change...but they wont let him.

At what point do you think his wife will let him?

[jwi71]

I believe him that she knows. There are other reasons why that I can't disclose here for their privacy - but trust me, she does, and remember, even if I didn't have the certain proof that I have that she DOES know, this has been going on and off for some time so he has no reason to lie about it - telling me she knows doesn't benefit him in any way.

 

Sure it does. It keeps you around and hoping. It keeps things "the same". I think the point we are trying to convey is your MM does have reason to keep you secret and "downplay" you.

 

You are posting because you have hope for change. But his actions, what he does, have they truly changed? In what measurable way?

 

If his W truly knew and accepted, why then are you two a secret? Can you call his home number anytime? Can you pull up in front o his house and honk so he knows you are there to pick him up? Can you visit his haunts and be affectionate in public? In other words, can your R be open at all times and all places?

 

Of course not. You already said so. So if you want it to be "open" and his W already knows...then what is the problem? Well, my suspicion is you want it to be open but your MM doesn't (or it would be open). Thus, the question becomes why. Why doesn't your MM want it in the open? Why is hiding your R? And from whom?

 

That is the worry.

[complicatedlife]

This is not good. I read the whole thread and went back to your previous posts. Clearly you love this man and I'm sure he cares for you too. Either he is a cake eater and really wants no change or he doesnt have the back bone to either leave or speak up to his wife. As you said yourself, children, finances, assets are things that can be settled. But this isn't even an issue yet.

My cousin, who is a family therapist, insists that he needs to get a backbone - she thinks this is the reason why things are as they are with him (hence she doesn't like him for me because she thinks he's not "strong enough" for me).

 

His wife found texts from August/September. You state you were not in the affair for most of that, so it is quite possible he was truthful and told her you were at that point you were just friends. While this would be an acknowledgement and upsetting - it isnt saying she knows.

It ended around mid-August - but there were texts that we sent eac other from earlier that he saved that were sentimental to him. We also know that she has known way before the texts, but as I said, I can't state the reason why here as it is a peculiar situation and I don't know who knows who here (you can PM me if you want to know).

If it is possible that she knows about you and has decided to stay with the M anyway...why would he change anything?? If MC is making it easier to communicate, and improving life for his kids...why would he make a change??

Now this is true. However, I would like to believe that no human being would want to be with someone who accepts their ongoing infidelity. Then what is the REAL reason why the person wants to be married if they accept that? Note: not an indiscretion that is past, but one that continues and that you are made aware of.

 

He says he wants to leave the marriage, but it is difficult to tell his wife. Actually, he says that he is unable to tell his wife because she gets mad...please. And he can't bring it up in MC because the counselor doesn't talk about Divorce either? So, he would like to leave his W but since she wont let him discuss it, his hands are tied. Its not his fault, he isnt the bad guy here. He would like to make a change...but they wont let him.

At what point do you think his wife will let him?

I completely agree with all of this and have questioned him on it just today. I'll see how he replies - it seems like fear to me, but fear of what, I don't know. Thanks for acquainting yourself with the situation so that you could talk with me about it here on LS.

[complicatedlife]

Sure it does. It keeps you around and hoping.

Uh - I don't agree - him telling me that she knows doesn't keep me around - I'm around regardless of that, and maybe I'm dense but I fail to see how that would give me any hope at all as I do feel that if she knows (she does) and is REALLY ok with it (this one I don't know), then our relationship would be different.

 

You are posting because you have hope for change. But his actions, what he does, have they truly changed? In what measurable way?

Yes - he did one MAJOR thing that he said he would do that I didn't think he would regarding assets.

 

If his W truly knew and accepted, why then are you two a secret? Can you call his home number anytime? Can you pull up in front o his house and honk so he knows you are there to pick him up? Can you visit his haunts and be affectionate in public? In other words, can your R be open at all times and all places?

Now, let's speak/write in a real-life scenario: even if she not only knew (and again, I am telling you that she knows but you're not hearing me) but had no issue at all with us having a relationship, how could I just show up at his house and pick him up; some of this is invalid because there are children involved, remember? They would have to be told, too, and he can't tell her today and I just start going there tomorrow, come on.

 

Of course not. You already said so. So if you want it to be "open" and his W already knows...then what is the problem?

The problem is that the wife doesn't want other people (family, colleagues, etc) to know. Now do I think there's something weird in that he chooses to honor that? Yes, of course.

[2sure]

OK - assuming you have some private piece of information that makes you reasonably sure she knows about you -

 

I have seen with my own two eyes, women who, for a variety of reasons, choose to stay with husbands who occassionally have "indiscretions. "

Or at least, it has been my impression that they know. I say impression because the affairs are not discussed in anyway and the H continues to keep the girlfriend fairly under the radar. Why they stay with these men....who knows? Apparently they have some comfort level with the status quo that for one reason or another they dont feel it behoves them to change. BUT: Appearences are #1!! They dont want to find evidence of the affair, don't want it brought to light within their homes - but even moreso: Will make life a living H for husband should the neighbors or other wives find out. She may even feel relieved on some level that he is able to focus on just one OW who has already proved reliable regarding discretion. Possibly you are the lesser evil, since he is once again, living at home.

 

Then of course, if she is the type - possibly she holds winning the competition for her husband higher than her family value, in which case she is keeping him out of spite.

 

Just sayin. Seems like your heart is riding on this woman's decisions - not his and not yours.

[jwi71]

Uh - I don't agree - him telling me that she knows doesn't keep me around - I'm around regardless of that, and maybe I'm dense but I fail to see how that would give me any hope at all as I do feel that if she knows (she does) and is REALLY ok with it (this one I don't know), then our relationship would be different.

 

I must be confused. I thought you were hoping he would leave his W so your R could be "in the open". After re-reading the thread, I am quite unclear on what you want. You want him as your boyfriend, married or not. So what's the problem? You want more of his time? You want her to have less of his time? What? Why do you care if he is married or not - you will be there for him as he needs. What's the problem again?

 

Now, let's speak/write in a real-life scenario: even if she not only knew (and again, I am telling you that she knows but you're not hearing me) but had no issue at all with us having a relationship, how could I just show up at his house and pick him up; some of this is invalid because there are children involved, remember? They would have to be told, too, and he can't tell her today and I just start going there tomorrow, come on.

 

ok, ok - a bit of la-la land I admit. So what's the problem again? Read the bold face...what exactly is the issue? If she knows, then why are you posting? I mean, he has his cake and you have a boyfirend when you want - no commitment at all. Sounds like it should be great for you guys.

 

The problem is that the wife doesn't want other people (family, colleagues, etc) to know. Now do I think there's something weird in that he chooses to honor that? Yes, of course.

 

Oh...so the whole issue is you have to be discrete in your affair. The W is cool with it as long as its in the dark. um, sounds like you have it made. You have the man you refuse to commit to, he has his "family"...sounds great. Why is it you cannot accept this? Why must it be in the open for you? Why must he leave her again?

[noforgiveness]

I think him telling you she knows does help to keep you in the relationship. It helps to ease your guilt and make you more comfortable with the whole homewrecking other woman role. Basically she knows so I'm not doing anything wrong.