Engagements with no date set.....are they??

[Bells]

I have come across a few couples here and there...typically when I would be friend a woman, see an engagement ring, later get to know her.....I ask her, "So, when are you two deciding to get married?"

 

I usually expect a date...or at least a "ballpark" figure like the fall of next year or whatever....they usually make plans."

 

Then I hear, "Well, we have no date, we're in no rush"

 

I quickly retract the congrats, because I don't consider her engaged, NOR do I consider them "Fiance's"

 

Anyone have noticed this?

[2sure]

An engagement comes with a date, even if general. Other than that, it's jewelry. Either she wanted a ring because all her other friend's are getting married and she wanted something. Or they live together and wanted a symbol of committment. Or he wants something on her hand to indicate she is taken. But yes, it is jewelry.

[Lauriebell82]

I'm not even engaged yet, and I already set a date!

 

HAHA, but seriously, I think 2 people can get engaged with no date but there isn't much point. If you want a glorified committment then get like a promise ring or something.

 

I personally don't believe in really long engagements (like 2 or more years). The only reason you would do something like that is if you were saving money for a wedding or something. If you don't have money to get married though, I think that you should wait until you do before getting engaged.

[Bells]

I'm not even engaged yet, and I already set a date!

 

HAHA, but seriously, I think 2 people can get engaged with no date but there isn't much point. If you want a glorified committment then get like a promise ring or something.

 

I personally don't believe in really long engagements (like 2 or more years). The only reason you would do something like that is if you were saving money for a wedding or something. If you don't have money to get married though, I think that you should wait until you do before getting engaged.

 

Exactly...I don't see the point of getting engaged if you have no plans or haven't made any plans to get married.

 

Sometimes I think it's just a "Branding" iron for the boyfriend to tell other men to back off. lol.

 

OR....he figures it will get her to shut up about marriage for the next couple of years.

[Ronni_W]

I'm not even engaged yet, and I already set a date!

With my (former) marriage, we did that, too. Then it was like, "Hhmmm...guess we better go get an engagement ring for me, huh?"

 

Thing with the 'promise' ring...would it signify a promise to get engaged? Cos that is kinda sounding weird to me. And, would it need the date on which the engagement will take place for some people to view it as being a "valid" promise?

 

I must be missing something: To me, the engagement is something special between the couple -- why care if they have a firm date, a maybe date, or no date at all, scheduled for their wedding? How does a date, or lack thereof, detract from the significance, to them, of their promise to each other, to someday be married?

[Bells]

With my (former) marriage, we did that, too. Then it was like, "Hhmmm...guess we better go get an engagement ring for me, huh?"

 

Thing with the 'promise' ring...would it signify a promise to get engaged? Cos that is kinda sounding weird to me. And, would it need the date on which the engagement will take place for some people to view it as being a "valid" promise?

 

I must be missing something: To me, the engagement is something special between the couple -- why care if they have a firm date, a maybe date, or no date at all, scheduled for their wedding? How does a date, or lack thereof, detract from the significance, to them, of their promise to each other, to someday be married?

 

I get tired of sa ying the same ol platitude..."Why do you need a piece of paper?" when it has nothing to do with a piece of paper.

 

The REAL reason is people are afraid to commit or accept responsibility for anything, they like the EASY way out....they want the luxuries of living together or pro-longed dead-end engagements....they go into a relationship with the attitude that if it doesn't work out, they can always call it off.

 

People are too selfish to get married or, for that matter, even commit for no more than a few months or perhaps a couple of years. People are tossed aside like old underwear or shoes. People dispose of each other without consideration of their feelings.

 

To me, an engagement is meaningless when there's no plans to get married....plus...means I still have a chance with her..LOL! Perhaps to a real man who will actually follow-through with their engagement as opposed to the chump who put a trinket on her finger and refers to her as "my fiance'".

 

Chances are it'll probably fail anyways.

 

There's this one woman, I think she's a joke...she's "Having her cake and eat it too."

 

She's looking for other men, while she's dating this guy...and she is not afraid to admit it, apparently, she won't stop dating OTHER Men until he proposes marriage to her...but yet, she is an exclusive boyfriend, until she find someone better I suppose. And she has no problem with doing it, and feels no shame.

 

The woman still goes on Speed Dating events when she has a man. People don't seem to draw lines where they should be drawn, and there is no clear definition to them of

 

What is faithful or monogomous or even a legit relationship?

 

We have people saying, "I'm KINDA seein' someone" you ask someone if they have a boyfriend and they laugh, "LOL...define boyfriend!" and crap like that....ambiguities that are irritating.

 

So I figure I might as well hit on a woman because...I'm thinking, "Hey, she's not married!" LOL I guess it's because after finding out their situation, I don't have a problem with it.

 

After all, I don't need a piece of paper for you to tell me to stop flirtin' with your woman, right? ;-)

[Ronni_W]

Ah! Maybe I'm getting it: You're saying that SOME people use an open-ended engagement as a poor replacement for any real/genuine commitment; or simply to appease their partner?

 

I get tired of sa ying the same ol platitude..."Why do you need a piece of paper?" when it has nothing to do with a piece of paper.

I totally agree with that -- and, if I am getting it, you're also saying that it has nothing to do with a piece of jewelry, either...that engagements and marriages are about people being willing to put in their WHOLE mind, heart, soul, and body?

 

Cos I totally agree with that, too.

 

Could I ask why it bugs you so much that OTHER people can't or won't commit, and/or that the way OTHER people (try to) show their commitment doesn't match with your views on how to do it? (I'm not sure which part is bugging you the most.)

[Bells]

Ditto on the TOP part.

 

The bottom portion. Not sure if a ring is representative, but to say your "engaged, and then not have plans to get married....how is that an engagement?

 

Anyhow, with people saying that you "Don't need a piece of paper to get married"

 

So shall we just start calling our boyfriend and girlfriends "husband and wife"?

 

Just SAY we are married without the Vegas ceremonies or legal mumbo jumbo? Just wake up one day, and call your girlfriend your wife?

[D-Jam]

I think it more depends on how seriously people take the whole idea.

 

I wouldn't put a ring on a girl's finger unless I planned on marrying her in 1-3 years.

[Ronni_W]

people saying that you "Don't need a piece of paper to get married"

Well, that is just inaccurate according to current law and traditions -- marriage MEANS getting that piece of paper...to get married you HAVE to have the license. Them just saying that doesn't change that marriage is a legal undertaking, which may or may not also have religious significance, depending on the couple's belief system.

 

But. I usually interpret it as, "you don't need a piece of paper to feel (give) the commitment" that SOME people think only a wedding ceremony can give -- you CAN give (and receive) the exact same level of commitment without a marriage license and civil/religious ceremony. The commitment is a heart undertaking.

 

I don't know any people who just "woke up one day" and started calling each other husband and wife. I agree that would be kinda strange to do, without first having given much thought and consideration as to what that actually meant and implied about their relationship and level of commitment to each other.

 

But they're just words/labels, anyway. When it comes to these matters, what only and truly counts is what is in the heart of the individuals involved, I think.

[Sunshine11]

I'm not really a fan of an intentionally long engagement, but if two people get engaged, and they either a) are too busy or don't know their schedules to be able to plan a wedding for the next couple years, or b) are discovering new issues in their relationship that they would like to sort out first, then I fully support their reasons for having a long engagement.

 

The above is a description of a friend of mine, and an additional stressor is that her fiance's family wants a big pretty white wedding, and we're in medical school, with little opportunity to plan for something like that within the next year or two, especially with no family in the area to help out. Also, they are trying to sort a few issues out first.

 

Anyhow, I just feel like different couples have their reasons, and it doesn't make a difference to me how they define their commitment to one another.

[allina]

I think there are many valid reasons to have a long engagement. However, in the majority or long/undecided engagement cases the guy was pressured in to proposing and isn't even sure he wants to marry the woman. The engagement ring is a sort of "shut her up" and "buy time" tool in these situations.

[Bells]

Well, that is just inaccurate according to current law and traditions -- marriage MEANS getting that piece of paper...to get married you HAVE to have the license. Them just saying that doesn't change that marriage is a legal undertaking, which may or may not also have religious significance, depending on the couple's belief system.

 

But. I usually interpret it as, "you don't need a piece of paper to feel (give) the commitment" that SOME people think only a wedding ceremony can give -- you CAN give (and receive) the exact same level of commitment without a marriage license and civil/religious ceremony. The commitment is a heart undertaking.

 

I don't know any people who just "woke up one day" and started calling each other husband and wife. I agree that would be kinda strange to do, without first having given much thought and consideration as to what that actually meant and implied about their relationship and level of commitment to each other.

 

But they're just words/labels, anyway. When it comes to these matters, what only and truly counts is what is in the heart of the individuals involved, I think.

 

I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, Ronni, as is true with most situations.

 

Perhaps we should have marriage ceremonies, but don't sign any actual marriage license or paper work....just go through the vows curing the ceremony, then call each other married....but don't run to the courthouse to get a marriage license. Friend of mine told me to keep "Civil Unions" left to legal things, and marriages to churches. Seperate the 2.

 

Anyhow, back to the whole engagement thing....from what I've experienced personally is so many broken off engagements anyhow.

 

I've even heard boyfriends their "wife" already. LOL Kind of lame if you ask me. (and here I was sayin', you can just wake up and call your girlfriend wife..and be married!, lol!)

 

Personally, the BIG picture here, is to the whole "You don't need a piece of paper to be married" is really an effect from a few things.

 

1. Afraid of commitment

2. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

3. I want to stick around so I can get my steady supply of sex (with men that is.).

4. Afraid of divorce and the money involved.

 

But mostly I've noticed it's the above 3, though....they like the option of "giving up" on a relationship if things go south, people get tired of their mates and move on....nothing lasts forever.

 

Heck, with what I'm even experiencing with people around me, my dad even says it sounds like a good idea not to get married. LOL Considering the horror stories HE's heard during marriages. That I might be better off!

 

I have also noticed alot of "grey" areas of what's considered "Dating", "Being Single" , etc

 

There's punchlines in comedies where our older folks saying, "Dating or....whatever you kids are CALLING it these days!"

 

When they say that (in the bold), it means that our older parents are stating we are defining our OWN parameters of what dating, courtship, ,and marriage is, and they are implying it's pathetic that we have no clear definitions about it. Which is understandable.

[Ronni_W]

older folks saying, "Dating or....whatever you kids are CALLING it these days!"

...we are defining our OWN parameters of what dating, courtship, ,and marriage is,

Just to be clear: I am an "older folk" . But I encourage your younger generation to define your own standards and values to better suit CURRENT-day events and conditions.

 

Why should you "young 'uns" be stuck with our archaic, limiting beliefs and opinions about engagements, marriage, and how life in general "is and should be"??? It isn't working all that well, if you will look around -- so why not get rid of what isn't working, and start calling things by new names and try to find better-serving definitions?

 

To use a simple example. Consider that, for my grandmother, rock and roll was the "devil's music"...and a generation came along and redefined that (thank God!) -- that NEEDED to be changed.

And of course there was confusion and lack of clarity during the transition from "devil's music" to perfectly acceptable music...that is natural, too. I don't get why old people need to judge you (I mean your generation, of course) as "pathetic" just cos you're still trying to get clear. (That just makes me as cranky as an old coot!)

 

"Do not go quietly into the night." Do not give up the good fight. "Rock on!!!"...or whatever you kids are saying, these days .

[Bells]

Just to be clear: I am an "older folk" . But I encourage your younger generation to define your own standards and values to better suit CURRENT-day events and conditions.

 

Why should you "young 'uns" be stuck with our archaic, limiting beliefs and opinions about engagements, marriage, and how life in general "is and should be"??? It isn't working all that well, if you will look around -- so why not get rid of what isn't working, and start calling things by new names and try to find better-serving definitions?

 

To use a simple example. Consider that, for my grandmother, rock and roll was the "devil's music"...and a generation came along and redefined that (thank God!) -- that NEEDED to be changed.

And of course there was confusion and lack of clarity during the transition from "devil's music" to perfectly acceptable music...that is natural, too. I don't get why old people need to judge you (I mean your generation, of course) as "pathetic" just cos you're still trying to get clear. (That just makes me as cranky as an old coot!)

 

"Do not go quietly into the night." Do not give up the good fight. "Rock on!!!"...or whatever you kids are saying, these days .

 

Okay, maybe it's something completely different...my dad grew served in Vietnam (the Navy), the ironic thing is, he never got a Tatoo....figured only idiots defaced their body...and now he says, "Look at their tattoos now, lol!" He never really "fit in" with his sailor buddies, just did what he was suppose to do, and that's it...enjoyed himself when he went on shore leave, never did anything with the dock hookers like the others did.

 

Again, the thought they were idiots.....he knew of one guy in the infirmary that got some kind of nasty STD that is only found overseas...his "unit" had to be drain of some dark purple gelatinous puss....he didn't feel sorry for him.

 

He was probably considered a "Square", a termed used back in those days.

 

He never even touched Marijuana, thought only idiots and the soon-to-be unemployed did that kind of thing.

 

Now people want to redefine ethics. People rationalize for bad behavior. People don't want to commit or accept responsibility for a relationship or marriage (as I stated in my list above).

[flc]

As for engagements my view is if you are engaged then you plan to get married and have a date in mind. I think 1-2 years would be the max

 

As for marriage, I don't necessarily believe that it promotes any additional level of commitment beyond the legal commitment. What is the current stat 49% of people have been divorced at least once, so how much of a relationship commitment is marriage? From legal point of view it is a large commitment and I believe necessary if you want to have children. Now that I am older and divorced I don't at this point in my life see why marriage is necessary but certainly would consider it if my partner felt strongly about it.

[Ronni_W]

People don't want to commit or accept responsibility for a relationship or marriage.

WHO is the "people"? WHO is unwilling or unable to give you the commitment that you would like to have? WHO is making your life miserable through their lack of taking appropriate responsibility?

[Bells]

As for engagements my view is if you are engaged then you plan to get married and have a date in mind. I think 1-2 years would be the max

 

As for marriage, I don't necessarily believe that it promotes any additional level of commitment beyond the legal commitment. What is the current stat 49% of people have been divorced at least once, so how much of a relationship commitment is marriage? From legal point of view it is a large commitment and I believe necessary if you want to have children. Now that I am older and divorced I don't at this point in my life see why marriage is necessary but certainly would consider it if my partner felt strongly about it.

 

The thing with marriage is, it's for life....you dedicated to be with each other until one of you dies and becomes widowed. It's a life long commitment.

[Bells]

WHO is the "people"? WHO is unwilling or unable to give you the commitment that you would like to have? WHO is making your life miserable through their lack of taking appropriate responsibility?

 

Well, it affects me, because I'm not compatible with alot of these people (the WHO you speak of), it can pose a problem when seeking someone that's compatible.

 

Met a woman, apparently she has a so-called boyfriend, but he won't propose marriage to her...so she's shopping it around, and dating other men (even going on speed dating events), she admits this without shame.

 

Talk about disrespect and lacking morals, he knows about it, but, as she says, unless he puts a ring on her finger, she won't be monogomous.

 

Yeah, it's a unusual set up...apparently the dumbass allows her to do this to him. She keeps him around because of the sex, and he mows her yard...(yes she admits this too without shame.). <shrug>

 

I just shake my head....I told her that was pretty messed up...and she's like "oh well!"

[Ronni_W]

Well, it affects me, ... it can pose a problem when seeking someone that's compatible.

Ah, okay. I get where you're coming from.

 

The thing is, to rage against what we DON'T want is just not as effective/productive as it can sometimes feel to be. Yeah...yeah...spoken like a true "older folk", I know.

 

But, if I'm properly interpreting your Dad's reactions way back when, he didn't so much carry on and rail against anything as he just chose his own direction and stuck to his own course.

 

I get that maybe a big chunk of your social network seems filled with people who do not share your values. But...is that telling you anything about you? Is there any good info/feedback to be gained, as to what you may be wanting to consider doing about your current social circle?

[Bells]

Ah, okay. I get where you're coming from.

 

The thing is, to rage against what we DON'T want is just not as effective/productive as it can sometimes feel to be. Yeah...yeah...spoken like a true "older folk", I know.

 

But, if I'm properly interpreting your Dad's reactions way back when, he didn't so much carry on and rail against anything as he just chose his own direction and stuck to his own course.

 

I get that maybe a big chunk of your social network seems filled with people who do not share your values. But...is that telling you anything about you? Is there any good info/feedback to be gained, as to what you may be wanting to consider doing about your current social circle?

 

Just keep on socializing until I find someone that does share my views.

[Aloros]

Eh. Who cares? It's their business.

 

My fiance and I don't have a date set yet. We DID have a date set, but then we bought a house (it was too good a deal to pass up!), so now we just don't have the $$.

 

We're setting a date in the next few months, once we have the cash for it.

 

For the record, been engaged since December of '07. We're very happy with our house - we'd do it the same way again if given the chance!