Jeanie Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Has anyone read an article on Salon.com about a book called "Against Love" by Laura Kipnis? I have not read the book, but its supposed to be funny, if this subject can be. Anyway, she contends that most people aren't so much dissatisfied with their partners, but with their lives. I think she's got something there. The article has the line- People commit adultery instead of bludgeoning their boss with their lunch box! You notice, I'm not quoting exactly, but that is how I recall it. A plan C seems in order, but I'm sure thats where any impulses I have come from. I spent some time defending my dear husband here, because people always assume there is something wrong at home for infidelity to happen. I think there are times when your union is fine, but all the other pressures in life push it to its limits. Has anyone read the article or the book? Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I haven't read the book but the idea that adultery can be merely a sublimation of anger or other pathological tendencies is the biggest bunch of BS I've heard in a long time. And if you write the author of the book, you can tell her I said so. I think Laura needs to sober up before she writes another book. I think there are a number of reasons why people cheat, probably the greatest being the desire to get some strange because they aren't getting enough excitement at home. It's very likely that Laura is dissatisfied with her own life and projecting that unhappiness onto others. She should be ashamed of herself. Link to post Share on other sites
aries Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Tony, Do you really think after reading all the posts that you have on this subject, that it is all about getting some "strange" because it is getting boring at home??? You said that you believe there are other factors but probably the greatest tendecy to have an affair is because people are bored?? I have to totally disagree. I believe there may be some sociopaths out there that just cannot be satisfied by having sex with there partner alone and have to seek more without any consceince about what they are doing. They are few and far between. Most of the stories that I have read are about people who have only been involved in an affair once and no more. They are usually very confused and upset about what is going on and feel tremendous guilt about their situation. At the time of the affair most feel like they are deeply in love with whom they are having the affair with. I have to say that every situation is unique and different. While the outcomes are all usually the same(noone leaves the family hardly ever), there are still many reasons besides lust and sex that cause these affairs to happen. I know you know this because I have read some of your responses. I was just really shocked that you would write something so untrue and shallow based on the fact that you have read so many confessions on this web site. I have not read any that said they were having an affair because they were bored at home with their family life. I know that you do not morally agree with anyone having an affair and you think it is very wrong and I respect your opinion. Most people will tell you that they thought the exact same thing before they got themselves into an affair and even during the affair they knew that it was wrong and even after the affair they realized that they made a big mistake. But believe me, people do not put themselves into situations like this because they are "bored" at home. There is usually something very wrong with the marriage at the time. And you know as well as I do that can be countless things. So if people get bored with their children, do they go out and find new children to replace their own? If people get bored with their pets, do they go and trade in their pets at the local animal shelter to find something better? If people get bored with their spouses do they go out and try to find new spouses,of course not. The reasons for affairs are much more complex than that. I know because I have had an affair we are going to have different points of view on this subject, but I could not let you get away with saying what you did. It truly is not a reasonable guess at why the MAJORITY of people have an affair. Support Always, Aries "I know what I was feelin' but what was I thinkin'?"--Dierks Bentley Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 YOU ASK: "Do you really think after reading all the posts that you have on this subject, that it is all about getting some "strange" because it is getting boring at home???" Never even remotely iimplied that in my post. I said that I felt that was the biggest reason. But I also said there were many reasons. So if you want the mathematics of that, just for the sake of conversation, boredom could be the case in 9 percent and all the other many reasons could fall in percentages less than that. I also said that I think (which implies that it is my opinion) which is one of the things that I served two years active duty in the military to defend all of our rights to do. You're not the only person who flys off the handle after reading my posts but not reading carefully. It's OK...I'm very used to it. If I had the exact answer the this problem, I would work on a vaccine for it. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I have to totally disagree. I believe there may be some sociopaths out there that just cannot be satisfied by having sex with there partner alone and have to seek more without any consceince about what they are doing This has nothing to do with sociopaths. Some people are actually sex addicts. Some people have real big self-esteem issues and seek approval from others - in the form of sex - to boost themselves. There are lots and lots of reasons why people behave badly and most of them have to do with internal personal difficulties. Link to post Share on other sites
aries Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 "I think there are a number of reasons why people cheat, probably the greatest being the desire to get some strange because they aren't getting enough excitement at home."---Tony "You said that you believe there are other factors but probably the greatest tendecy to have an affair is because people are bored."---Aries "I know you do not morally agree with anyone having an affair and you think it is very wrong and I RESPECT your OPINION."----Aries "Your not the only person who flys off the handle after reading my posts but not reading carefully. It's O.K....I'm very used to it."----Tony Tony what part of your response did I not get?? I believe that you believe that the greatest tendecy to have an affair is because of boredom. That is what you said, it is very clear. You do admit it could be other things which I gave you credit for. It seems you did not read my response carefully enough. I also realize that it is just an opinion as so was my response. I think your opinion is wrong but I still respect it as being your opinion. I was trying to explain why I believe your opinion was wrong. Your mathemetical example did not make sense either. I mean could'nt you have said that 90% of affairs are caused by being bored with the family life and the last 10% are other factors. I think that would have represented what you were trying to get at. You are still saying that overall boredom is the culprit. I still do not understand how you have came to that conclusion? Support Always, Aries P.S. Both my grandfathers fought in WWII and I am a daughter of the Revolutionary War, so they too fought for me to have the right to my own opinion. I don't understand why you felt you needed to make that point. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 You're not the only person who flys off the handle after reading my posts but not reading carefully. It's OK...I'm very used to it. I think Aries read carefully and replied to what you said as being representative of what you think. And Aries believes differently, as do I. But you did say you 'think' therefore this is a difference of opinion rather than of fact. My opinion, and I think I could find some studies that say this, too but I haven't one at hand, is that affairs are rarely about sex. They are about unmet needs for companionship, for understanding, for acceptance; for things people wanted in their relationship and had and lost or never had. Sex is so often symbolic for acceptance that I think it's really hard to separate the two. Then again, you are a man and on the show you said you often speak from personal experience... Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Just a general question to the board... Do you think men and women have affairs for different reasons because they have different biological and emotional needs? Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 No. I think the difference is that for men, I'm told, sex creates bonding. For women, bonding creates the desire for sex. I heard a sex therapist speak about this. It's chicken-and-egg. Man says 'if you'll only have sex with me, I'll do the stuff that makes you feel loved because I'll want to'. Woman says 'if you'll only do the things that make me feel loved, I'll have sex with you.' And round and round it goes... Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Interesting! Link to post Share on other sites
aries Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Your question is something that I have also wondered about. I know that in my situation I was feeling like my husband was putting his job before his family. I did not feel like I was getting the attention that I needed and that my daughter was not receiving enough attention from him either. I was doing everything to keep the household together, bills, cleaning, taking out the trash etc.. and I felt like I was not being appreciated. I tried to support him because he was working so much, but I felt like he was not giving me enought credit for the sacrifices I was making. Then it became a snowball effect because he would want sex and emotionally I was not there, I was either to tired or resented the fact that he wanted it--almost like it was one of the other chores I was supposed to do. The intimacy was just gone. Then I'm sure he resented me for not wanting to have sex with him. We just grew apart so quickly. It was just bad timing. This old flame got in contact with me out of the blue and I began to think that maybe we were meant to be. I had such a big crush on him in my past and had always thought of him. I guess I just kind of got into this fantasy mode(which I hate to admit). He made me feel special when my husband was not. It is really a long story and some of you probably know of it. This thing with my husband did not happen over night. I say it was actually about 2 years of bad communication and lack of intimacy between the two of us that got me to that point. As for the other man, he told me that their sex life was terrible and that he was sleeping on the couch most of the time. He said they had a great sex life before they married but then it just had dwindled to nothing. He felt there was a lack of intimacy or connection when they did have sex. He said that she often complained that it hurt when they had sex and that she never enjoyed it. He could not figure out why it was all of a sudden hurting when they had sex and it made him paranoid whenever he would try. He also said that she never wanted to try new things, that she only wanted to have sex missionary style. He just could not figure it out. They have three boys together and they are all young. From a woman's point of few I am sure she had her hands full and I am sure there was probably more to it from her point of view. He said she was a great mother and never talked bad about her except for their sex lives. That in a way probably proves your point. I was missing the emotional part of someone finding me attractive and I guess I felt like he must really like me to put everything on the line to be with me and in my mind my husband was not. On the other hand the fantasy for him was that I was wanting to have sex with him and maybe that made him feel needed and special because his wife was not filling that need for him. Like you said, then it turns into a cycle. I say for both of our situations it was lack of communication between us and our spouses. It can happen really quick, all of a sudden you can become strangers. I wish more men would respond to why they have affairs and be truthful about it. So many women have come to this forum, but you hardly ever here from the men. I would really like to know their point of view also. It also seems to me that when a man has a post about his infidelity, he gets a lot more respectful replies than do the women who post. I get the impression that most people feel the man gets seduced and the woman should know better. Maybe it's just in my head but it just seems it is that way to me. Support Always, Aries "I know what I was feelin' but what was I thinkin'?"--Dierks Bentley Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Aries - I'm sure I've read a zillion variations of your exact story. I think the cycle can be broken if one of the partners can only manage to bring himself or herself to overcoming the 'you first' syndrome and do whichever thing will break the downward spin. But people don't! One therapist once suggested that women have sex with men every day whether they wanted to or not. I suspect it was a way to prevent this downward spin from happening. Link to post Share on other sites
cindy0039 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Originally posted by moimeme One therapist once suggested that women have sex with men every day whether they wanted to or not. I suspect it was a way to prevent this downward spin from happening. But wouldn't that just create resentment, if they were doing something they really didn't want to do? I agree with moimeme that affairs happen for a lot of different reasons, depending on the person and the situation. But I think it can be just about sex for a woman as well as a man. I know it may be less common (or maybe just less talked about?) but there are men who aren't interested in sex for one reason or another and maybe the wife has a high sex drive and goes out to satisfy it. In other words, I don't believe in the ole stereotype that it's only men who have affairs just for the sex and women only have affairs to get emotional needs met. Link to post Share on other sites
ilmlbr Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 all the people i know that have had affairs say it has nothing to do with sex, with the men it was more of a control thing, with the women it was more of a not getting enough attention , i also agree that some people are addicts which to me is a control thing. just my opinion and a little experience. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeanie Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 So no one feels like you can have a good relationship and still stray because of other issues in your life? When I think of how many unfaithful partners have been so devastated by the results when it blows up in their faces- they obviously really love their partners. Maybe I'm just going through a midlife crisis, but some of the motivation for me is coming from a resistance to the stifling weight of what society expects. You can't have male friends; other moms will complain about their husbands as dolts/jerks/pigs, and everyone nods in agreement- but if they divorce- everyone is dismayed; Cars and other consumer products are marketed at us as if life is over for us-" PT Cruiser makes even soccer moms feel tough!" I feel so much wilder than anyone but husband and friend give me credit for! Thats what I mean by "cultural rebellion." I have an impulse to do the unexpected. I am keeping it under control,. words and actions are not the same thing. I have a feeling that conversation my friend and I had was the one you have with male friends and then you get on with the friendship. We agree that we both love my husband too much to hurt him this way. If we don't pull that off, it will be terribly sad- "great love that can never be" and all that tragic romantic stuff, and I don't want that. Link to post Share on other sites
CompletelyLost Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Originally posted by cindy0039 In other words, I don't believe in the ole stereotype that it's only men who have affairs just for the sex and women only have affairs to get emotional needs met. Cindy, I agree with you 100%, as I recently had an affair because my emotional needs were not being met at home. As many others here can attest, it wasn't a good idea, but it was difficult to see that at the time. I think that I am very lucky that my affair made me really take a good look at my marriage, and that I was able to realize what my issues were, and start addressing them. I regret having the affair, but I think that it was what was necessary to force me into dealing with my marital problems. Everyone that has said that there a multitude of reasons why people have affairs is right, I think that in most cases, it is even true that each individual person has a number of different factors that contribute to their decision to have an affair. There may be some truth to the concept that other pressures outside the marriage can contribute to it, but I agree that those are, in general, not the primary causes. Even if someone honestly feels that their affair was caused by outside pressures, I have to ask why their marriage didn't provide enough support for them to deal with the issues without having an affair. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeanie Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I guess my marriage is strong enough that I have always been faithful, and have been hashing out the guilt and wondering why just for thinking about an affair! I have not had an affair, I'm just in love with someone else, and trying very hard to put it in a place I can live with. Link to post Share on other sites
vaughan Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Originally posted by aries I wish more men would respond to why they have affairs and be truthful about it. So many women have come to this forum, but you hardly ever here from the men. I would really like to know their point of view also. It also seems to me that when a man has a post about his infidelity, he gets a lot more respectful replies than do the women who post. I get the impression that most people feel the man gets seduced and the woman should know better. Maybe it's just in my head but it just seems it is that way to me. I agree! More male perspective please! I also agree that women seem to get more harsh replies than the men. I have been on every side of the cheating issue (cheater, only once, cheatee and cheated on) in my 30+ years and every reason has been different. All I know is that no matter how romantic things are at first, it always leads to a purely sexual experience. Committed relationships tend to do the same along with becoming a routine. I am almost to the point of thinking everyone cheats in some way. It is just so many people get married or stay together for the wrong reasons and it is easier to cheat than to leave. I am not saying affairs are a good thing. I am just saying intense emotions can lead people to do ultimately unwise things and that is just life. I am currently fighting off feelings for a married man who has in no way made any advances. It is hard to say, but I have decided to use my past experiences as a tool and never let anything happen while he is married. I pray I will be strong enough to live up to that statement. I know that everything seems wonderful when you fantasize but can do a 180 once reality sets in. However, love is blind and drive even the sanest person crazy. It is something you have to go through to understand. So no judgment here to anyone. I am just so glad you are all willing to speak up. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I am almost to the point of thinking everyone cheats in some way. BullSh*t! What I find more appalling then anything else, is not that people have affairs, but the fact that they put more time into coming up with "excuses" to justify their behavior then they do trying to fix the problems within their current relationships. I had a difficult marriage too, welcome to the Pity-Me party! But as "unfulfilling" as it was, I devoted my time and energy trying to resolve the issues within my relationship rather then going out and getting my needs met elsewhere. When it failed, I LEFT before pursuing any outside romantic relationships. I have a friend I have known since high school, and she has cheated during BOTH of her marriages. It is because she lacks self-esteem and confidence and tends to latch onto anyone who pays her the slightest bit of attention. I also find it a "personality" trait, as her dishonesty and selfishness tends to spill over into other aspects of her life, including her professional life as well. And I have seen the same characteristics with other people I know who carry on in the same way. It's an unhealthy notion to convince yourself that "everyone" cheats just because you and the many others who post here do. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you're bored, then find something that you’re GOOD at and enjoy doing. Work on doing those things that will make you a better person. Work on learning how to like yourself rather then seeking attention and approval elsewhere. As of now, your methods are self-defeating. And if you are in a relationship that has become toxic, then at least find the integrity and inner strength to get yourself the H*LL OUT! Link to post Share on other sites
vaughan Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO BullSh*t! What I find more appalling then anything else, is not that people have affairs, but the fact that they put more time into coming up with "excuses" to justify their behavior then they do trying to fix the problems within their current relationships. I had a difficult marriage too, welcome to the Pity-Me party! But as "unfulfilling" as it was, I devoted my time and energy trying to resolve the issues within my relationship rather then going out and getting my needs met elsewhere. When it failed, I LEFT before pursuing any outside romantic relationships. First of all, I have never been married nor have I ever had an affair with a married man. I cheated one time, meaning one sex act, with my first boyfriend when I was 19. I stayed in a five year relationship trying to make it work while he was cheating on me. I did leave and I never "pursued any outside romantic relationships" as you put it. It's an unhealthy notion to convince yourself that "everyone" cheats just because you and the many others who post here do. Nothing could be further from the truth. Please read my post more carefully. I am not convinced that every single person has a physical affair. I meant that I believe, in the broad multiple meanings of what is considered cheating such as fantasizing, that most everyone does this. That is why I said "in some way" and did not mean to offend you so much. If you're bored, then find something that you’re GOOD at and enjoy doing. Work on doing those things that will make you a better person. Work on learning how to like yourself rather then seeking attention and approval elsewhere. As of now, your methods are self-defeating. And if you are in a relationship that has become toxic, then at least find the integrity and inner strength to get yourself the H*LL OUT! I am sorry, but these comments are far too judgmental and close minded. 1) Never had an affair due to boredom. 2) Have found many things that I am good at and enjoy doing. I have my own business for starters. 3) I have spent plenty of time making myself a better person and was told I was one of the healthiest person my ex therapist had seen once she told me no more sessions were needed. 4. Not seeking attention. 5. I was in a toxic relationship and did get out. So what would you have had me do differently? I tried to make it work, it didn't, he kept cheating among other things and I had the "integrity and inner strength" to get the H*LL OUT! I was trying to discuss the complexity of affairs without attacking anyone. I do not understand what you are so upset about and feel the need to form such an opinion of me without any facts. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I have been on every side of the cheating issue (cheater, only once, cheatee and cheated on) in my 30+ years and every reason has been different. I was responding to the MANY posts from people who had, are having, or are contemplating affairs. First, in order to perpetuate an affair, one must lie, deceive, manipulate and continually work to cover up their tracks. Then they must invent excuses and reasons to cover up the fact that they had to lie, deceive and manipulate in the first place. Such skills do not come easy for MANY people, and is not something one learns how to do overnight. On the contrary, I think its perfectly fine for people to do as they want. Their lives are their own and they may screw them up as they wish. But NOT when they do it at the expense of others and make casualties of the lives and people around them. That is an act of selfishness for which no excuse will ever justify. Not everyone cheats, because not everyone is capable of doing all the terrible things that go along with it.... Link to post Share on other sites
vaughan Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO First, in order to perpetuate an affair, one must lie, deceive, manipulate and continually work to cover up their tracks. Then they must invent excuses and reasons to cover up the fact that they had to lie, deceive and manipulate in the first place. Such skills do not come easy for MANY people, and is not something one learns how to do overnight. This is the very reason why affairs are so hard on those involved. It is not easy to deceive or to hide. Does not lesson the fact that huge emotions can be formed and it becomes very hard to make the right choice. Again, affairs are wrong and I am not trying to make light of the act. It is a very painful experience for all. I don't think it is fair to put all cheaters/cheatees in a category of people who enjoy to some degree being deceitful. And what exactly do you mean by "not something one learns how to do overnight."???? Are you saying people that cheat are scholared manipulators? Of course there are not so great humans and there are great ones that don't always make the right decisions. How can anyone get help about this issue if they are just put down? Trust me, most of them know how wrong it is and do not need anyone pointing that out for them. The point is, it happens and I for one would like to see it be a discussion that might breed knowledge instead of quick judgments. Thanks for your comments. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeanie Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Could everyone take a deep breath and try to discuss this calmly? I realize a lot of people are terribly wounded by this, but the original post was about why people cheat. My husband cheated on me years ago, before we were married, and we managed to get over it. This seems like a good opportunity to discuss and heal, but we will have to reign in the emotions a bit. Hope I'm not offending anyone with this one! Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 And what exactly do you mean by "not something one learns how to do overnight."???? Are you saying people that cheat are scholared manipulators? No, but I think it’s a good indicator of character. Perhaps it sounds judgmental, but we must face the reality that we are constantly being "judged" throughout our lives whether we like it or not. At home, in our social circles and in our careers. We are often even our own harshest critics. I am currently fighting off feelings for a married man who has in no way made any advances. And this is where all the whole cycle could begin again. If learning from past mistakes were so easy, then why would someone stumble so easily back into the same old destructive behaviors? Prevention is worth an ounce of cure. Perhaps my approach is harsh, but sometimes it takes a good jolt to dispel the smoke screen of obvious denial. While it’s interesting to examine all the reasons "why" these things might happen, it is just as important to figure out how to STOP our addictive, self-destructive behaviors rather then getting tangled up in all the preliminaries. I yield. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Perhaps it sounds judgmental, but we must face the reality that we are constantly being "judged" throughout our lives whether we like it or not. At home, in our social circles and in our careers. And this is a good thing? And the reason anyone ought to behave is that he or she is being judged by others who don't understand his or her life but who think they are entitled to judge? Does nobody at all anymore believe 'Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his boots'? Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts