Adultery as an act of cultural rebellion

[vaughan]

Originally posted by Jeanie

 

Hope I'm not offending anyone with this one!

 

No offense at all Jeanie and I am sorry to everyone for coming across angry as I am not. You are absolutely right that this can be a learning and healing discussion.

 

I believe there are many reasons why people cheat. There are those that do it for control reasons. Just to see how much they can get away with. Then there are the times when a relationship isn't going well and an affair seems to provide the things that are felt missing. I also believe some people just develop feelings and don't know when or how to handle them espcially if the feeling is mutual. When it feels like a "star crossed" thing, it is so hard to turn away and it seems to hit you out of nowhere.

 

I do think marriages can be salvaged after such an occurance which you yourself can testify to. I also know married couples whose relationship began in an affair fashion and even the kids are happier now. I don't mean to sound delusional but I think every situation has different motives, possibilities and ramifications.

 

I want to explain myself just a little. The man I have feelings for was single for 5 of the six years I knew him. He just got married about four months ago. I was with someone else for the first five years of our friendship. I do not contact him and I keep things on the same friendly level when he calls me which is very rare. I know if it is ment to be it will happen once he is single again. It is just tearing me up right now and I hope someone out there can understand. So, I must continue to stay away. I also have been the other woman with non married men on a couple of occassions in my early twenties. I was not told the truth in one of the incidents and the others was a deep emotional flaw I have now since fixed. Again another reason people stray. Anyone else's thoughts?

[Tony T]

This would be groundbreaking in that people could blame their behavior on biology rather than free will. Maybe there is a biological basis for rape, murder, robbery and arson as well. This is intense stuff here!!! Perhaps man does not have free will after all, it's all in his guts.

[moimeme]

Maybe there is a biological basis for rape, murder, robbery and arson as well.

 

It's looking like that is highly possible. And you know what that means? That means that these things may well be treatable ailments and that, if diagnosed early enough, they could be prevented.

 

Now I don't know about you, but I would far prefer a world in which potential problems could be prevented to one in which we wait until bad things happen and then try to assuage our pain by punishing or even killing the perpetrators. Never mind the pain which would be avoided if rapes, murders, robberies, and arson were no longer committed.

 

But, hey, if you'd be happier with the world remaining exactly the same, fine. I am very exicted by the prospect of finding treatable causes for these behaviours.

 

Of course, we'd then have to find other occupations for all the people who so enjoy being drunk on their self-righteousness and who just love to judge and condemn other people. After all, moral superiority is a lot of people's drug of choice.

[Tony T]

"I am very exicted by the prospect of finding treatable causes for these behaviours."

 

When I was little, a kid told me I was full of crap so I told him I would kill him. Later on, my mom gave me an enema and everything worked out OK. I left the kid alone. I guess there is a biological origin to this stuff. Maybe the department stores ought to fire the security people and just give out antishoplifiting pills at the door (or give enemas).

[moimeme]

Maybe someday they will!

[vaughan]

Originally posted by moimeme

Of course, we'd then have to find other occupations for all the people who so enjoy being drunk on their self-righteousness and who just love to judge and condemn other people. After all, moral superiority is a lot of people's drug of choice.

 

First off, thank you moimeme for posting which has given me some hope about this board. I only came here to try and find some, I don't know, perspective regarding this situation. All I have pretty much received imo is harsh sarcasm. I didn't realize that most of the discussion would be proving infidelity was wrong. I already thought that was sort of a given. Doesn't change how often it occurs.

 

Back to topic. I would be interested in reading about the biological theory you mentioned so any links or suggestions of where to look would be great. I still stick by my earlier points that it happens for a multiple of reasons. I have recently discovered that both of my parents have history in this arena as well as my mother's parents. Hmmm, you might be on to something. I am all for learning and prevention. Thanks again.

[aries]

Tony,

You know researchers are saying now that homosexuality is based on biological tendencies. That people are born to be homosexual and that they can't help it??

HHmmmnn....No, I do not believe that it is a biological matter when it comes to affairs and I do not believe that is what moimeme meant. I think she meant, correct me if I am wrong, that what men and women want out of relationships can be studied and has been studied and from what she has seen or read is that men tend to get bonding from sex and that makes their relationship seem more fulfilled if the sex life is good. Women on the other hand need emotional needs met to make them feel like the relationship is good. If either sex is lacking these needs because it is most important when defining a relationship to them, then the relationship starts to suffer. Therefore, if these things are not addressed it can lead to people growing apart and there are many factors that can cause these needs to not be met. That is why people say that there are many things that can cause an affair to happen. If anything affects the balance of this delicate mutual relationship between a man and a woman, then the marriage begins to suffer. Of course this does not mean that someone is going to go out and have and affair just because they are having problems in their marriage. It then depends on how severe the problems are and if the persons involved really want to make it work, and yes sometimes people fall out of love with each other and can't get it back.

 

I do think that men biologically are programmed to perpetuate the species. That is why I think sex is so important to them. Women on the other hand, are more of the care-givers and worry more about raising the children that she has had and wanting them to survive, I think that is biological also. Over time, because we are this way naturally, it has evolved into being a part of our social structure. I think that is what moimeme meant in her post. I do not understand why you thought she meant that because people have affairs they are biologically predisposed to it?? Like being biologically predisposed to having cancer. That is not what she meant. You just seem very defensive about the subject and so ready to attack people about their faults. No one is making excuses here. We are discussing why these things happen. You know, cause and effect.

 

Many people have fallen into the arms of an affair since time has began. Bill Clinton, Princess Diana, Bruce Willis, John F. Kennedy, George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Jimmy Swaggart, most all of your kings throughout time had mistresses, Eleonore Roosevelt(supposed lesbien affair) and on and on and on. I would also have to ask EnigmaXOXO if she feels like these people are selfish and deceitful characters. Some may be, but I would have to guess that some of them are just very human and made a bad mistake/mistakes. We ALL have issues, but I feel like people who tend to be prententious and condensending have even something more to hide. The rest of us are just trying to figure this ole world out and trying to understand why we behave the way we do sometimes and realizing and accepting your not perfect is the best growing experience ever. I have learned a lot from this experience. I have learned a lot about myself and others. I stepped into a realm that I thought I would never be in. I will never do it again. I have asked for forgiveness and am trying to forgive myself.

 

I am not going to hide from what I have done. I will continue to discuss it and hopefully help someonelse who may be on the verge of an affair. I want to understand where I was at and what made me feel like I needed to do this. Listening to others and their stories help. We all know that we were being "bad" and "selfish", that we "lied" and were being "deceitful" we all know it is a "sin". But what I am trying to figure out is why would I be this type of person when I have never compromised any other relationship in my life--ever. I have always been very loyal and honest in all my relationships-male or female relationships.

 

I also commend those of you that write and say that you had troubles in your marriage and got through them without getting into an affair, that is great. I do wonder though if you were tempted at the time with an affair? I would have never seeked out an affair at the time of my marriage troubles, it was the farthest thing on my mind. The other man got into contact with me and had no ideas that I was having troubles in my marriage. He asked an old friend about me and she told me. He wanted my number and she said no. I gave him a call and he called me back. I don't think I would have bothered if I was not feeling so lonely and unhappy. I really feel like it was bad timing when he decided to try to contact me. I know I could have made it through the troubles without an affair if things would not have happened like they did. Just curious if any of you turned down the possibility of an affair when your marriage was going bad and what were your thoughts at the time.

 

 

Support Always,

Aries

[moimeme]

I stepped into a realm that I thought I would never be in

 

For many people, this is the beginning of wisdom.

[moimeme]

Vaughan, Aries has read and interpreted what I've posted correctly.

 

This thread has morphed all over the place so we've been talking about biological involvement in love, infidelity, criminality, and emotion/arousal. Each in itself would take a book or three. I'll post a thread with a few points for each but give me a couple days. I'll have to collect my resources and I actually do have other things to do today!

[vaughan]

Originally posted by moimeme

I'll post a thread with a few points for each but give me a couple days. I'll have to collect my resources and I actually do have other things to do today!

 

Thanks moimeme. Have a good one!

[EnigmaXOXO]

Oh great.

 

A world full of drooling, mindless, drug-induced zombies. A world where “free will” and human emotion no longer exists. Once our brains are basking in a soup of neurotoxins, we will no longer have to bother with the nasty business of raising our offspring to become responsible members of society. Instead of vitamins, we’ll send our children off to school strung out on Ritalin so that they’ll sit quietly in their seats and not cause undo stress to their bus drivers and teachers. We’ll even make the pills taste like candy and shape them into cartoon characters.

 

Those addicted to deadly drugs, like Heroine, will no longer have to suffer through painful withdrawals as part of their rehabilitation. We’ll substitute the illegal drug with and equally dangerous “medication,” like Methadone, so that our clinics profit rather then the dirty street hustler.

 

We can dismantle our churches, religious institutions, court houses and prisons. Set up more clinics, instead… (For those lucky few who can afford healthcare, of course!) This way, all those previously offended by such human virtues as “morality” will no longer have to face scrutiny. We’ll all be equally stoned, like a bad Cheech and Chong movie, grinning like a bunch of happy retards.

 

Woo Hoo!!

[aries]

AAhh,

Finally this conversation is getting back on track. Thanks Moimeme for taking out the time to give me and others REAL advice and information to work with. This is a very interesting topic and I think it deserves some respectful and meaningful responses--slander gets us all nowhere.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[vaughan]

Originally posted by aries

AAhh,

Finally this conversation is getting back on track. Thanks Moimeme for taking out the time to give me and others REAL advice and information to work with. This is a very interesting topic and I think it deserves some respectful and meaningful responses--slander gets us all nowhere.

 

Exactly and your post about your past was helpful for me. I too want to know why I can't 100% just move away from my feelings. I would love to hear any advise you can give me. If I just stay away, will they feelings cease?

 

Question for EnigmaXOXO

 

Would you kindly tell me what your solution is for stopping infidelity from happening?

[moimeme]

Oh great.

 

A world full of drooling, mindless, drug-induced zombies. A world where “free will” and human emotion no longer exists.

 

Don't be ridiculous. The brain is an ORGAN which needs chemical intervention just like a pancreas, a liver, a heart, etc. Same with drugs for schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. This anti-drug foolishness is getting way out of line; this sort of rabid overreaction prevents people from getting the treatment they need and it is despicable. You are indulging in odious logical fallacies, to boot.

 

Ritalin allows many many people to live productive lives BECAUSE it does for the brain what the rest of the body is supposed to do and does not.

 

Please educate yourself on the science of mental illness before you indulge in knee-jerk reactions. It is people like you who continue to stigmatize the mentally ill.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Would you kindly tell me what your solution is for stopping infidelity from happening?

 

Well, you certainly won't find the "cure" in a bottle.

 

The solution rests within the "individual." Will Power might be a foreign concept to many, but it is the immediate result when one learns how to appreciate and respect oneself, and in doing that, learns how to respect and care about those around them.

[vaughan]

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

Well, you certainly won't find the "cure" in a bottle.

 

The solution rests within the "individual." Will Power might be a foreign concept to many, but it is the immediate result when one learns how to appreciate and respect oneself, and in doing that, learns how to respect and care about those around them.

 

So if someone is lacking in will power, how do they acquire what is not naturally within them? I am consider by my friends of 10+ years and family as an extremely honest, respectful and caring individual. I'm like everyone's mama and a great one to my daughter if I do say so myself. So how does your theory work if I am not a disrespectful uncaring person? Could it not just be that we all are lacking in will power in certain aspects of our lives and we might need some kind assistance?

[moimeme]

The point is that a biologically-based condition can PREVENT people from exercising free will. Take people with OCD, for example. The chemicals in drugs ALLOW people to behave independently of biological issues by repairing the biological issues.

 

Get it?

[moimeme]

Vaughan - I'm back waiting for an email to come in. A lot of the very interesting recent science has been about impulse control and deficits in impulse control. There are certain areas of the brain which are associated with impulse control functions; injuries or damage to those areas result in impulsive and even violent behaviour - up to and including murder.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Could it not just be that we all are lacking in will power in certain aspects of our lives and we might need some kind assistance?

 

Absolutely!

 

Not only "assistance"... but perhaps even intervention.

 

And if you are not finding the support and reinforcement you need from your family and friends...if you don't have it within yourself to take those needed steps towards change, then continual professional assistance may be required to help you resolve the more deeper, personal issues you are continuing to struggle with.

[aries]

Come on EnigmaXOXO, get real. If "will power" was the issue here I would give you the credit that you deserve, but it is not. You act like these affairs are cravings that cannot be controlled. I do not think my affair can be related to a nicotine fit. I was not sitting around craving to have an affair and finally decided that I could not stand it anymore,so I lost control and had the affair. I am not an impulsive person and it is not like I went through my marriage being tempted by every good-looking man that ever hit on me and then finally I broke because I did not have the will power to resist. You seem to have a very stereotypical view of people who have been involved in affairs as weak, low-self-esteem, selfish, pity me type people. I think you would be really suprised to know that most of us are your average Joe's, some very successful, some not, great mom's, great dad's, great daughters, great son's, great friends, and some that are not so great people. People from all walks of life have had affairs. I was at a very low point in my marriage(do you even consider the things that can go on in a marriage that might cause someone to stray?) You say "get out" before you stray, well I tend to agree, but getting out is not always so easy when you care about what is going to happen in the future, especially if you have children.

I took my vows seriously when I got married but there are other things that you vow besides not to have an affair. Is it also not morally right to uphold the other vows also? If your partner is not aren't they just as guilty in the marriage? If they are not putting their 50% in are you just to stay miserable? I have seen people stay married and be absolutely miserable just to look good in societies eyes. Also, once you have been married for awhile I think you feel like you are not available for anyone but for your spouse or that people would not find you attractive or you just get out of the dating type attitude, which you should that is normal. But when you begin to realize that your marriage isn't going well or you are not happy, you sometimes feel trapped. If at that same time you become attracted to someone or they show you attention it feels safe because you are kind of testing the waters to see if you are actually to the point that you want to move on. It is wrong, I know, but it is probably why most affairs happen. Most people are to scared to just divorce and move on because the unknown is scary especially the older you get and the longer that you have been married, you have so much to lose if you are wrong in what you are feeling at the time. In a way, I think I would rather my husband have an affair and realize that no one can fill my shoes and that he could only love me and no one else and me not find out, than for him to divorce me because he is not happy with the marriage at the time and then realize when it is to late that he made a big mistake in leaving the marriage. I guess maybe that is what seperations are for, but then again that is also hard when there are children involved.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[moimeme]

If "will power" was the issue here I would give you the credit that you deserve, but it is not.

 

Let's see, Enigma. You, being a paragon of expertise in 'will power' must be thin and fit, correct? You never eat unhealthy food, right? You follow stress-reduction and other strategies to ensure your health, never suffer road rage, have never cursed a balky computer or photocopier or been snarky because a store line has been too long. You don't have to give up any bad habits, because of course you have none. Your home is immaculate, your workplace impeccable, and every person you meet honoured to be in your presence.

 

You surely must be a paragon of all perfection and virtue and so you must write a book on controlling all one's impulses - or, in your terms, 'willpower'. I expect to see a photo of a slender, fit person on the cover and to read all your strategies for total self-control inside. I also want to see science backing your claim that this level of self-control can be achieved by all persons, including those with frontal lobe injuries.

 

And then I want everyone in your life to attest to how you have modelled this exemplary behaviour.

[aries]

AMEN Moimeme!!!!

 

EgnimaXOXO intervention?

Please give me an example of that situation. Are you talking about my friends and family all getting together for my benefit to try to make me realize the damage I am doing to myself and others because I chose to be in an affair? Like a drug intervention? Aren't you being a little dramatic here. I have the best support system in the world-great family and super friends but an affair is not something you go around telling everyone about. My three best girlfriends know but that is it. They were all very supportful and critical about what was going on. But they also know the full history of my situation and my friends are not judgemental. They may not have liked what I did but they love me enough to know that I am a grown woman who can make her own decisions good or bad. A one time affair to me is not indicative of a personal problem. We all have issues that probably help us get into the bad situations that we can find ourselves in but there are so many other factors that are involved that you cannot just pin point one thing. Now if you have countless affairs and you do not know why you are constantly wanting to have affairs that is another thing. Most people on this forum have only had one affair and I do not think that deserves intervention.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[CompletelyLost]

Originally posted by aries

I have the best support system in the world-great family and super friends but an affair is not something you go around telling everyone about.

 

Originally posted by aries

You seem to have a very stereotypical view of people who have been involved in affairs as weak, low-self-esteem, selfish, pity me type people.

 

Exactly ! I agree that you can't point to just one thing and say "That is why I had an affair," and you can't generalize to the point of saying "If you had an affair, you have no will power." I didn't have an affair until AFTER I regained some self-esteem, and realized that I wanted more respect than I got in my marriage. Yes, I should have ended the marriage, rather than have an affair, but that is a very difficult thing to do, and at the time, having an affair was a very easy thing to do. As aries said, meeting someone that you find attractive and that returns your attentions, is a very tempting situation. And it is very tempting to give into the line of thought that goes "I don't dislike my marriage enough to leave it, this affair will give me the strength to stay in the marriage, rather than leave it." I don't make any claim that that is a valid reason, but it can be appealing at times.

 

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that it is difficult to generalize about why people have affairs - there are as many reasons as there are individuals, and although a lot of the reasons have similarities, no two cases are going to be identical.

[EnigmaXOXO]

First, I am indeed human and subject to all the same feelings, emotions, and “weaknesses” as you and everyone else. But when most of us get angry and stressed out, like yourself, we still know enough not to whip out a gun and start blasting away at people.

 

Is this “will power?” Personally, I don’t know. But what I “do” know is that those basic values handed down from my parents didn’t come safety-sealed in a bottle.

 

So what would you attribute this uncanny ability to separate emotions from so called: “knee-jerk reactions?” Should it all be credited to our properly balanced brain chemicals … And all those cheating on their spouses, and crowding our prisons, are just “victims” of frontal lobe injuries? (Not that such behaviors are one in the same, only making a “comparison” as you have.)

 

Sorry, I understand this upsets you, but I don’t believe the answer to all our problems rests with “medicating” the world against unhappiness. The rehab centers are already full of people who have been self-medicating themselves. I don’t like the legacy of the message it will leave with our future generations. While we teach “just say no,” more and more of are children are being forced to line up in front of the nurse’s office to pop a pill because their teachers don’t like their behavior. And some are even being told that their children can not return to school unless they are drugged.

 

I'm hoping the answer lies in helping people to build stronger family units, teaching values by setting good examples in basic human decency. And if one is properly diagnosed with a “chemical imbalance,” then medication should only follow and be administered in conjunction with intense psychiatric therapy so as to “wean” the patient off of chemical dependency rather then promote it.

 

Dysfunction…the “gift” that keeps giving.

 

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4103147-102278,00.html

 

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/parenting/08/29/ritalin.schools/

[cindy0039]

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

Sorry, I understand this upsets you, but I don’t believe the answer to all our problems rests with “medicating” the world against unhappiness. The rehab centers are already full of people who have been self-medicating themselves. I don’t like the legacy of the message it will leave with our future generations. While we teach “just say no,” more and more of are children are being forced to line up in front of the nurse’s office to pop a pill because their teachers don’t like their behavior. And some are even being told that their children can not return to school unless they are drugged.

 

I'm hoping the answer lies in helping people to build stronger family units, teaching values by setting good examples in basic human decency. And if one is properly diagnosed with a “chemical imbalance,” then medication should only follow and be administered in conjunction with intense psychiatric therapy so as to “wean” the patient off of chemical dependency rather then promote it.

 

First of all, the key word in your first paragraph is "self-medicating." Of course it's not healthy to try to medicate yourself without the help of a professional. But illegal drugs and alcohol are a lot different than prescribed medications.

 

I'm guessing maybe you had a bad experience with Ritalin...hmm. But I didn't think that was really the topic of this thread.

 

As far as your logic that with strong family units there would be no need for medication, that's hogwash. Moimeme is right, if you have a chemical imbalance, a diagnosed mental condition, there are medications that can make the difference between life and death for you, the difference between a life filled with depression and turmoil and unhappiness (and yes danger to yourself or others) and living a normal, happy and healthy life. To think you can be weaned off such medications and talked into being "normal" is ridiculous! That's like saying if you're a diabetic you can be on insulin until someone somehow convinces you that you can live without it. Get real.