Adultery as an act of cultural rebellion

[aries]

Look EgnimaXOXO,

Moimeme was not saying that there could be a cure for someone having an affair in the form of medication. This has gotten so far off topic. That was inferred by Tony I believe when she was making the point that some behaviors stem from biological factors. Then it got totally blown out of proportion. The only thing she is defending now is that some people do need medication to cure or help treat some mental disorders because there is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Just like if a diabetic does not produce enough insulin they must have injections to keep a proper balance or they will get very ill or die. Some people do not produce enough seratonin, which in turn can cause depression, panic attacks, OCD, and there are meds out there to help the brain absorb the seratonin better. You think she is arguing the point that people who have affairs could maybe be treated one day with medication and that is not what she is saying at all!! I think sarcasm was at play here and you took it literally.

 

Do you also think that everyone that has had an affair has had poor role models and family who did not teach proper morals to them? You know, I was taught not to do a lot of things in life that could cause harm to me or others. That is usually how we base what is right and what is wrong. But you know I am not perfect. Maybe some of the things that I didn't do you might of done. For ex: Maybe you used to make fun of people in highschool(maybe you still do) that are not like you? Maybe you had premarital sex? Maybe you drink to much? Maybe drinking at all is to much? To categorize people and their behaviors so generally as to say they did not have a good up bringing or they just were not taught what was right or wrong or that they are just not decent people is just plain shallow and judgemental. It is a lot easier to be critical than to take the time out to try to understand why things happen sometimes.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[EnigmaXOXO]

Since I have never had an affair, or considered having one, it’s obvious I'm in need of an education from those who have.

 

So, I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions of my own since I have been kind enough to answer the many that have been asked of me.

 

First, I believe when many of the people on this board say they are basically honest people. So am I to take this to mean that those of you who have had, are having, or are contemplating infidelity have already disclosed this information to your partners? And if so, how did you work through the issues and manage to get past them? Did you seek professional help “together” to resolve the problems in your relationship that led to having affairs in the first place? And do you think you’ve acquired the inter-personal skills to avoid a similar situation in the future?

 

Second, if your partners are not yet aware of the infidelity, or of your desire to seek emotional/sexual companionship outside of your immediate relationship, how do deal with the daily worry that they may eventually find out? Have you considered telling them?... And if not, why?

 

And lastly, if you don’t mind, I was wondering how many of you come from families or parents where infidelity or other relationship problems existed. How would you describe your parent’s relationship with one another? And how much do you think you learned about "dealing with emotions" from watching them?

 

Please don’t feel the need to respond if you are in any way uncomfortable with answering these questions honestly.

[moimeme]

more and more of are children are being forced to line up in front of the nurse’s office to pop a pill because their teachers don’t like their behavior. And some are even being told that their children can not return to school unless they are drugged.

 

It is imperative that any child exhibiting symptoms of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder have a thorough examination by a physician competent in diagnosing and treating ADD.

 

Certainly children should not just be handed pills if they display behaviour issues but AD/HD is a real disorder which cause huge amounts of difficulty for people who have it so a diagnosis is crucial.

 

The second article you quote says exactly what I have just said and speculates that physicians are over-prescribing Ritalin. That means that physicians are doing shoddy work, not that there is anything wrong with Ritalin when used correctly by competent physicians. Direct your tirades at the AMA, not at the proper use of recognized treatments for genuine conditions.

[Jeanie]

Enigma- Why are you so interested in this thread? If you have never had an affair and never contemplated an affair, were you wronged by one? That would explain alot. This message board is what I do to work through these feelings and not act irresponsibly. What are you working through?

 

I guess no one else loves their spouse without significant reservation and still feels a substantial pull toward another? Its a pull I'm learning to live with, but I wonder if its so unique?

[EnigmaXOXO]

I apologize Jeanie.

 

I didn't realize this thread was for people who have had affairs only.

 

...I must have missed the newsletter.

[aries]

EgnimaXOXO,

I too wonder why you are so interested in this thread. It also makes me wonder if there is not something that runs deeper within you when it comes to the topic of affairs? I do not have a problem at all that you are voicing your opinions but you do seem to maybe have an agenda here, maybe not?

 

In answer to your most recent questions. My spouce did not find out about my affair. My affair did not last very long (over about 8 mths) and most of it consisted of phone calls. We were only alone together all of about 5 times. I lived 2 hours away at the time. We decided to end the affair because we both were not ready to leave our marriages and we were afraid if we continued we would get caught and the guit was tremendous for us both. I was more reluctant but we both agreed it was best. I did not tell my husband because I knew he would flip out. He would have possibly told his wife and she might of left him and I too was in fear that my husband would not be so understanding and would have left me also. I still think of the other man, but I am trying to really work on my marriage for the sake of my children. I do love my husband but it is almost to the point of loving him like a brother. I am trying to search down deep for the feelings that I once had that were more intimate. I am also trying to figure out what got me here in the first place. I started dating my husband exclusively when I was 19 and have not had any other encounters with men. I am now much older and a lot different from that 19 year old years back. My husband is 7 years older than me. I think back then I just wanted someone to take care of me and thought that that was what love was. I do not know though I am still working on this.

 

As for my family, my parents have been together for 30 years. They, to me, have had a typical relationship. Some ups and downs but nothing major. My father is a type A personality and how my mother has dealt with this I do not know, to me they are completely different people but somehow they have made it so far. Both of my grandparents are still married. On my Dads side it is more like a platonic relationship. They have not been happy for years and my grandfather did have an affair on my grandmother years ago. They are still together but it is a pretty sad situation. My mother's parents are happily married and totally enjoy each others company to this day. To me they are the ultimate example of how a marriage should be. They have always and still are completely in love and it shows.

 

The other man's parents are divorced. I knew that, but during our affair he told me that the reason they divorced is because his father had an affair on his mother. He told me that it made him feel really bad about what he was doing because he has children and his father left his family when the kids were young. He told me he was seven and he also has an older brother. He told me that it really bothered him when he was young and that he just could not put his children through the same thing. He did not want to hurt them. He has three young boys. I also think that he would not feel right leaving his wife with three boys to raise by herself. He was also afraid that if she found out he would never get to see his sons and he did not want to not be involved in their lives.

 

I guess that is why it was easier to walk away for both of us. We really talked all of this out and was honest about what was going on in our lives and why we were doing what we were doing. I think we realize that we care for each other, but to hurt so many people for us to be together could not be right. Of course he said it is just not right right now, but I told him I could not live my life thinking that maybe in 2,5,10 years we could be together. So now I am just trying to deal with what happened and to move on the best that I can.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[EnigmaXOXO]

Aries,

 

My real concern comes from knowing that those who are, or have been, in these situations and haven’t gotten the help they need may still be at risk. Like any addiction, whether it be to a person or unhealthy relationship, sometimes going “cold turkey” just doesn’t work because the underlying problems that lead to infidelity still haven’t been resolved.

 

Also, I believe a lot of what we learn about our role in relationships, inter-personal communication, and dealing with unpleasant situations (like unhappiness) is partly due to what we learn from our own families and social environments. Also, much of how we respond and react to our emotions is based on experience and/or emotional maturity. I don’t believe at all that we are somehow biologically predispositioned to have affairs, or that we are naïve victims of some unseen outside force. Although I don’t discount “social conditioning.”

 

As only one example, my closest friend since childhood (who I spoke of in a previous post) had many issues she was dealing with in her life, as we all do. On the outside she appeared aggressive, self confident, and liked to talk about all her financial and professional accomplishments. But on the inside she was always insecure about her appearance and her ability to attract men. The funny thing is, she never had a problem attracting men…just all the “wrong” ones.

 

Like us, she was also married very young. Too young! Because of her inexperience and “youth” she was unprepared for all the responsibilities and problems that come with marriage and raising a baby. She communicated her unhappiness the same way she did as a teenager (she still was), and was prone to fits of verbal outrage and physical temper tantrums when things didn’t go her way. After all, this technique always worked with her parents!

 

Of course, the marriage only deteriorated because of the lack of real communication. But too proud, and not wanting to move back in with her folks, she decided to hold out and find “someone else who could understand her.” This was the first of two affairs she had during her first marriage. Meanwhile, her husband came to the same resolve and began cheating on her. She was absolutely FURIOUS when she discovered him with one of her so-called best friends who had stepped in to “console” him while she was out having a good time of her own.

 

Finally, after five years, the marriage ended. But unfortunately, the cycle of dysfunction had already begun. In the two years she was single, she had three more affairs with married men --- actually bragging that she had adopted the same attitude as the men who ****ed her and left her. She could have sex without feeling a darn thing for the person she was with or the wives and families of the married men she was with. “Here’s your coffee. Don’t forget to close the door behind you,” is how she would tell the story.

 

Then came marriage number two. At 38, and still having learned nothing about healthy communication and relationships, the whole ugly scene repeated itself. She’s already had two more affairs during this, her current marriage. And I have been filled in on every ugly detail.

 

It took some doing to get her to finally seek professional help. She was afraid that if she got marriage counseling (which is what she really needed) that her husband would learn about her affairs and leave her. She claimed she didn’t want to end the marriage because she didn’t want her new daughter to grow up without a father like her first son. She was content to remain in her misery and endure the torture for as many years as it took…so long as she could fill the void with someone else on the “outside,” no matter how temporary. (Catch 22) Eventually, the trysts she was having with the men she worked with began affecting her “reputation” at work and was becoming detrimental to her professional career. She would become jealous of any other woman in the office who even smiled at the men she had developed crushes on. As their supervisor, would even do things underhandedly to make their job unbearable…like with holding raises and altering personnel reports. (The downward spiral)

 

I cared about her so damn much that I stopped feeling sorry for her and became down-right confrontational. Offering her support and advice didn’t work. Weighing my words too carefully only seemed to enable her. She could relieve herself by “confessing” to me without ever having to actually DEAL with her situation. It came to the point when I simply had to tell her that although I loved her like a sister, I could no longer be her toxic waste dump. I didn’t even know who she was anymore, and unless she took responsibility to get some REAL help, I could no longer involve myself in her situations.

 

She got pizzed, and stopped talking to me. Surprising, I felt relieved.

 

When last we spoke, she had decided to seek out a councilor and “thanked” me for getting her there. Although her husband isn’t attending, because she doesn’t want him to know what she’s done, she said she was able to learn some things about herself she hadn’t been willing to listen to before now. She’s finally confronting her personal demons and learning how to take responsibility for her life and her own actions. And she absolutely loves her councilor…who is a female, thank G-d!!

[moimeme]

I think back then I just wanted someone to take care of me and thought that that was what love was. I do not know though I am still working on this.

 

I think a great number of people marry for the wrong reasons; at the time they often don't realize they are the wrong reasons. We focus so much on why people divorce or break up when we ought to also ask why they even got together in the first place.

 

Enigma, your friend is an extreme case. This sounds like a person who has some very deep unmet needs and, rather than trying to 'fill' herself with food or alcohol or drugs, she's using sex and men.

 

Most people who have affairs are not in that category, according to what I've read and the cases I know where people strayed. Lots of people who have affairs are like Aries - the affairs are a 'wake-up' call in and of themselves and sometimes trigger people to really address issues in the marriage.

 

At bottom is definitely the issue of communication in a relationship. If a person starts to feel dissatisfied in the relationship and does not, for whatever reason (and often that reason is a sincere, if misguided, desire to not 'hurt' the partner), communicate that dissatisfaction and try to work out a solution, a Gordian knot ensues. Eventually, the dissatisfied person find satisfaction elsewhere.

[aries]

EnigmaXOXO,

It truly seems your friend was in need of counseling and it is great that you were there for her and ultimately talked her into getting the help that she needs. I do believe though that she was an extreme case. I know that in my case, I should have communicated my feelings to my husband when I felt things start turning for the worse. Instead, I did not want to put anymore pressure on him that he already had because he was working so much and it was something that he really did not have control of either. He had to work to put food on the table and quitting a job would have been to risky at the time. He did not even have time to search for a job or interview. It was a really weird work situation. He is an eletrical engineer and there were only 3 engineers in this newly started company. They were being contracted out by a major company. If there were any problems they had to be there. He was really about to lose his mind at the time because he was working so much and I just did not want to send him over the edge by addressing the problems I felt we were having in our marriage. After things slowed at work, he started looking for a new job. He luckily found one, but it is in the city where this other man lives. We are moving into our new house in about 3 weeks. I am kind of nervous about maybe running into the other man but I am dead set on trying to work on my marriage. I know the other man is too so at least we are both on the same page.

 

I have done a lot of self-reflection over these past months of having no contact with the other man. I have really learned a lot about myself good and bad. Actually, this forum has been a lot of help also. I am not against therapy when people need it, but I really do not think I am at that point. More than anything I am realizing that the reasons I married my husband were all wrong. I was young and needy then and I feel like I just hung on because I did not have the self-confidence back then to feel like I could be alone or support myself. After dating and living together for 7 years and after one proposal that I turned down because I told him I wanted to finish school before I got married, I felt very obligated to stay with him. The week before I got married I prayed to God to give me a sign if I was doing the wrong thing but never received the sign. I marked it up to marriage jitters and got married. I look back now and I think I was in total denial. I felt pressure from our friends and family to get married. How could I break his heart like that? Even typing this breaks my heart, facing the whole truth of myself being weak at the time.

 

I love my husband because he loves me. I know that sounds crazy but otherwise I feel like we are friends and business partners. I really hope things get better, I really want to try, but I feel like if it is going to, I am going to have to face the past and then shut the door on it and move on. That is why I say that every situation is unique. My motives for my affair I think, are a lot different from your friends or at least I believe that I have begun to face my issues where it sounds like she never did and she got into a very destructive cycle. I am glad therapy is working for her.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[EnigmaXOXO]

Lots of people who have affairs are like Aries - the affairs are a 'wake-up' call in and of themselves and sometimes trigger people to really address issues in the marriage.

 

Yes. I agree.

 

But I'd hate for anyone to be left with the impression that infidelity is a "remedy" for unhappiness or a catalyst for inspiring healthy change.

 

If only that "wake-up" call could come sooner .... even if from a stranger ... so that we could inspire people to become more "proactive" in dealing with their emotions and problems rather than "reactive."

 

But I'm also aware enough to realize that it is often a loosing battle.

[moimeme]

But I'd hate for anyone to be left with the impression that infidelity is a "remedy" for unhappiness or a catalyst for inspiring healthy change.

 

Personal growth is work. You have to want to do it, and you have to actually do it. A lot of people get forced into personal growth by crises. It's unfortunate, but everyone knows a story of the person who only got motivated to quit smoking after a cancer operation. It takes work and dedication to be proactive; for a lot of people, it's too much bother or just doesn't seem important - until something bites them in the butt.

 

If only that "wake-up" call could come sooner .... even if from a stranger ... so that we could inspire people to become more "proactive" in dealing with their emotions and problems rather than "reactive."

 

Well, see, that's why I think a mandatory marriage prep course would be a good idea. These courses help teach people communication skills and present issues to communicate about - how money will be managed, for instance, and how children should be disciplined. But we are so against doing preventive things - we'd rather that people suffer first and then help fix them than help them to avoid suffering in the first place.

[EnigmaXOXO]

We are moving into our new house in about 3 weeks. I am kind of nervous about maybe running into the other man but I am dead set on trying to work on my marriage. I know the other man is too so at least we are both on the same page.

 

Aries, I don't like thinking that you are living in a perpetual state of "nervousness" and fear. Scared that you might run into this man again and your secret might be discovered (however slim the chance). I don't know why I'm so darn scared for you, but perhaps that's where my own weaknesses lay.

 

I know you have resolved to do you best you can to make your marriage work on your own without therapy. If you can somehow "cold-turkey" your addiction to this other man while at the same time working to improve your marriage, then you are certainly stronger than most! But if at any point you feel you are loosing your self-control or "will power"... please, please go and get some intervention by talking to a trained professional. Even if you have to tell you husband you're out getting your nails done!

 

There is no shame in that. Believe me, I have had to consult in MANY to become the happy person I am today. And I'd go right back in a heart-beat if ever I found myself unable to handle things on my own again.

[aries]

I will try my best to work this out on my own. I am looking at this move as a positive change. If I get down, I have some great friends I can confide in. Honestly, I am not opposed to therapy and if I see our marriage not improving then I will consider going or both of us seeking therapy for our marriage.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[vaughan]

Aries,

 

I so feel for you. My one infidelilty experience was alot like yours. I too was very young and so in love. Yet once things became more realistic; ie moving in together, house cleaning, bills etc., I started really yearning for freedom. He never found out about the affair, but my guilt changed my attitude enough for him to change his mind about our engagement. Even twelve years later I regret my decision but I think deep down I just wanted a solid way out. I sure did get it!

 

So, if it is not too personal, have you tried to talk to him about how things have changed for you? I think it is so hard to have a great marriage when you are so young. There is so much developing of yourself that is going on between 20 to 30. It takes time for that naive dream of relationships to wear off and to really know what you want. I really wish you all the best. I completely believe you love your husband. You have just grown and sometimes that means growing apart. If it is right for you, then I hope you two can work it out. You have to express yourself to him and vice versa for things to have a chance at getting better.

 

To everyone,

 

I wanted to say that I am glad to see that this whole thread has lost its hostility. It has helped me alot. Even though I felt some comments were harsh, they did make me think. I have come too far to "go through the garbage" and make the same mistakes. I deserve better than being second choice. I am finally at a point in my life where I am really content being alone. If someone comes along, great but I am picky. So, I think the best thing we all can do is to be supportive and not judge.

 

Question: Do you think you should tell your partner if you have had an affair or can things be patched up without letting them know?

 

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR HAVING THE COURAGE TO POST THEIR EXPERIENCES!

[EnigmaXOXO]

Question: Do you think you should tell your partner if you have had an affair or can things be patched up without letting them know?

 

I think I would have to find the courage to say something. It's just the kind of person I am, but I would worry myself into ulcers trying to keep something like that inside. I would be literally paranoid to have to lie repeatedly to cover up...worry that it's such a small world that someone might have seen us, know about the affair and tell my partner. Then I'd have to accuse someone else of lying to cover the fact that I was the one being dishonest.

 

Either way, the truth will eventually come out and I would have to risk losing my partner whether now or later. And that kind of information is more difficult to handle if coming from someone else. I couldn't imagine the embarrassment I'd feel if the people who know, love and trust me ever found out I had it in me to do such a thing. My family, my children, my close friends.

 

Perhaps I just have too much pride in myself, or care too much about how other people feel. Or maybe I already know that I’m just not any good at lying, and would never attempt to get away with such a thing.

 

But having been in two relationships where I was with someone who stepped out on me, I can personally say that it wasn't the act of "infidelity" that hurt me, but rather that I was being constantly lied to over a extended period of time. To me, the lie gets bigger the longer you wait to tell the truth. I was told, “I love you too much to ever do anything like that,” that I was "imagining things" and even started to think there might actually be something wrong with "me" even though all the signs were there. I was told, "if you loved me, you would trust me." --- So I trusted, only to be left to feel like a gullible fool later when I discovered the “trust” I gave this person was used to deceive me.

 

That's the "unfair" part of the whole situation. Not only is the innocent partner blamed for the other's infidelity, but the situation is often turned around on them and they are purposely made to feel as if they are the ones who have a psychological problem when in fact it is the other way around...

 

And to top it all off, even if you find the courage to leave your cheating partner, the next guy or gal you become involved with can't understand why you have "trust" issues when it comes to relationships. Even when they try to convince you that they love you and would never hurt you the same way that other person did. They don't understand that you've heard that same song and dance over and over again before.

 

The pain infidelity causes never heals, and does more irreversible damage to the one who has been cheated on, then the one who has done the cheating.

 

Nope, I think I’d rather just avoid the whole ugly mess in the first place. I’d rather live by myself, in a tent in the woods somewhere, then stay in a relationship that made me miserable.

[aries]

To answer your question Vaughn-No, I am not going to tell my husband. I think all it would do would cause so much pain and hurt for everyone that it would be very foolish to do that. Maybe on my death bed or later on in life when my children get older will I tell, but not now. I do not like keeping it from him but I would only be making myself feel better by getting the guilt off my chest. I am not a dishonest person, but I do believe there are things in life that are better left unsaid. Now, if he ever asked me if I had thought about having an affair, I would probably say yes. I still would not admit to actually having the affair. What if he got so upset that he decided to kill the other man, or me , or what if he divorced me and got custody of my children because I made a stupid mistake that I now regret? What if my husband handled it O.K. but he felt like the other man's wife should know and their family was ruined? I am sorry but to many things can happen, and yes I got myself into this mess, but I could not handle all of the drama that I know would happen because I did not want to have a lie on my conscience.

 

Support Always,

Aries

[vaughan]

aries, I hope you don't think I was judging you. I was just asking a general question. I am on the fence with the whole issue. I never did confess and looking back I am glad I didn't even though I know my guilt screwed everything up. We weren't meant for each other ulitimately and would rather he remember our relationship fondly. However, I do wonder what if I just told him could we have worked through it? Knowing him, I seriously doubt it so the end result would have been the same regardless.

 

Also, I believe that you are a honest person and respect your decision. I do agree some things are just better left unsaid. My only question is how do you get rid of the guilt? Time, I suppose. I wish you all the luck in the world.

 

I also agree with EnigmaXOXO's point that if the truth comes out, it hurts more that you were lied to than the act itself. Especially if a good amount of time as gone by and you or your partner has been acting lovingly. You are left feeling so used and foolish. I can say I am glad I found out because it made me finally get enough courage to leave. I agree too that I think the truth has a way of coming out sooner or later. After many years of being cheated on, I got my confirmation while he was, forgive me, begining to have sex with me. I told him to grab a condom and his whole body froze and he replies "We don't have any because I threw them away."

I can not put into words how disgusted, angry and hurt I felt at that moment. Then again, he was a big jerk and he was bound to get caught. When he was trying to win me back with gifts and "I love yous", an old friend of a friend pops up and makes it known that he was seeing her girlfriend for months! I remember thinking, why couldn't you just let me know so I could have a choice?

 

Of course, every situation is different so I guess the answer depends on those involved. If they are never going to find out and one can handle the guilt, then how can telling them about an affair be helpful? At the same time, how can you ensure they will never find out, therefore how do you cope with the fear?

 

Thanks again for being honest everyone!

[belladonna]

I really don't think there should be justifications for adultery. Everyone has made terribly selfish decisions, adultery is one of them. Adults take responsibility for their actions, children will do something "naughty", then lie and try to cover the action up.

 

I have never cheated on my husband of 14 years because how could I be willing to gift somone with anger, humiliation and pain if I don't want to suffer those feelings? I'd rather break up with someone honestly. My brother in law cheated on his wife, he was often away from his kids on weekends claiming to be working overtime, when he was actually with the other woman. I have no doubts he loves his children, but that he was willing to put a sex partner above being with his own kids is rather pathetic. A lot of people are forgetting that by the lies and duplicity on the part of the adulterous person, they are exposing their "loved one" to potential STD's. That is no light matter.