Religious parenting or abuse?

[theBrokenMuse]

I am just curious to see what people's take is on this since there seems to be such a huge divide on the subject (which shocks me to be quite honest). A four year old child has a mother that claims that feelings of self-esteem and self-worth are bad for children and must be eradicated based on her Born Again Christian beliefs. She states that her child is learning that there is nothing good about herself. Would you consider that to be emotional abuse given what we know about the role of self-esteem in a child's development? Why or why not?

[Geishawhelk]

Yes, it's abusive.

because it erodes the child's development of self worth.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about yesterday on another thread.

How human rights take precedence over Religious rights because religion is based upon a particular creed whereas Human Rights are not discriminatory.

 

The child's rights to a well-adjusted development are being denied.

This is abusive.

[Geishawhelk]

See what I mean in this thread. A page or two on.

[Moose]

based on her Born Again Christian beliefs

It's VERY clear that she's not, "Born Again".

 

This is 100% against born again Christian beliefs. Just where did you hear such a story anyways?

[JamesM]

I think that is stated wrong.

 

A Christian may say that our worth should not be found in self but in Jesus Christ, but that does not mean that self has no worth. We should not be focused on our self-esteem as a way to put ourselves above God, but we should realize that our worth and esteem is given from God.

 

I guess we can start a discussion about self-esteem and Christianity without this alleged article or story, but it would be nice to have some factual basis for this thread.

[Geishawhelk]

Thanks Moose, good one. I'm happy you posted that.

It would have sounded really dumb coming from me!

[theBrokenMuse]

It's VERY clear that she's not, "Born Again".

 

This is 100% against born again Christian beliefs. Just where did you hear such a story anyways?

 

It's a post written on a self-professed Born Again Christian woman's blog. The post was so disturbing to many folks that it's reached several different forums and blogs spanning several countries. Soon a debate started on this subject as people started making accusations stating that it's just a sneaky way for atheistic liberals to try and stop 'real' Christians from teaching their children about sin and needing the love and grace of Jesus. Ray Comfort and his ilk have even stepped in the defense of this woman's parenting style.

[theBrokenMuse]

I think that is stated wrong.

 

A Christian may say that our worth should not be found in self but in Jesus Christ, but that does not mean that self has no worth. We should not be focused on our self-esteem as a way to put ourselves above God, but we should realize that our worth and esteem is given from God.

 

I guess we can start a discussion about self-esteem and Christianity without this alleged article or story, but it would be nice to have some factual basis for this thread.

 

Am I allowed to post links? I can give one: http://thewomanofvirtue.blogspot.com/2008/10/four-year-old-who-knows-she-needs.html

[Lizzie60]

I often saw abuse from very religious parents.. (from my experience, they are the most abusive)... I can go on and on with horror stories..

 

I often saw (even worked with) religious people (Christian brothers, priests) who abuse children..

 

I find that a lot of religious parents are FOR physical punishment.. weird..

[quankanne]

yes, Lizzie, there are people who manipulate authority to suit their own twisted needs, but they're the bad apples in the lot, and not the whole orchard! Be it in a religious setting, a family setting, a work setting, etc.

 

as Moose points out, a true Christian understands that because we are God's creation, we are truly beautiful and beloved ... and he raises up that person in every sense – psychologically, physically, emotionally – so they can understand their true beauty in God's eyes.

 

someone who forces another into submission is doing the direct opposite, and IMO, cannot be considered a "real" Christian.

 

in other words, that mama is whacked

[Enema]

It's VERY clear that she's not, "Born Again".

 

This is 100% against born again Christian beliefs. Just where did you hear such a story anyways?

 

Looked up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy yet Moosey?

 

You're one of thousands of different types of Christians. Just because she has beliefs that don't equate exactly with yours doesn't mean she's not a "true" Christian, it just means you interpret the bible in different ways.

 

Neither of you is more right than the other.

[Lizzie60]

I agree with Enena.. but I would say, from my experience.. the whole orchard was rotten.. only very few good apples..

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Looked up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy yet Moosey?

 

You're one of thousands of different types of Christians. Just because she has beliefs that don't equate exactly with yours doesn't mean she's not a "true" Christian, it just means you interpret the bible in different ways.

 

Neither of you is more right than the other.

Ugh. Thank you! I love reading things that make sense in this section.

 

I'm going to second Lizzie in that every zealous Christian parent I've ever known has been very emotionally and physically abusive toward their children. Trying to live like OT god, I guess. Kids don't listen? Beat 'em! Still don't listen? Kill 'em in a flood!

[quankanne]

key word here is "zealous" ... a person doesn't have to be Christian to fit that definition, I think people readily identify them simply because there's a bias against religion … hey! It's cool to bash Christians.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

key word here is "zealous" ... a person doesn't have to be Christian to fit that definition, I think people readily identify them simply because there's a bias against religion … hey! It's cool to bash Christians.

I'm not biased against religion. In fact, there are some really positive religions out there (Buddhism is the first one that comes to mind) which are nothing but good, sensible, and respectable. I've met a few Christians who are all of those things too (you are one of them, quank!)

 

Being overly zealous about anything is no good. I was reading a thread on here a few days ago where someone said they'd immediately run from a potential relationship with any vegetarian. As a vegetarian, I was kind of bothered by that, but I realize there are lots of "types" of vegetarians in the world: on one end of the spectrum, violently hardcore Peta-supporters, and on the other, the people who you've known for a year before you even find realize they're vegetarian. It doesn't mean either of those isn't a "real" vegetarian (unless they eat chicken, because godammit, chicken is not a vegetable), just that they understand vegetarianism differently.

[Moose]

it just means you interpret the bible in different ways.

A common epidemic.....and STILL spreading.

 

If you read scriptures as a WHOLE using the, "L.E.G.A.C.Y." methodology the Bible makes PERFECT sense, no contradictions, written in a way that thousands of years from now, any layman can understand it!

 

L - Location (Culture)

E - Essence (Example or real experience)

G - Genre (Audience)

A - Application(s)

Y - Year(s)

 

Raising your child requires discipline, however, there is a much HIGHER degree of Love, Respect, Self-Worth simply because of what WE have in Christ.

Looked up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy yet Moosey?

First off, Antony Flew doesn't carry any weight with me. Reading his junk is a waste of my time.....although very entertaining.....

[quankanne]

thank you for clarifying, i luv ... I think people see or hear the word (whatever word) and automatically associate it with the worst, because the worst is the only example they've really paid attention to/noticed. Your point about vegetarianism perfectly describes that bias.

 

on the outset, I don't "get" going meatless, but the more I think about it, and about how there are so many plant sources that fill our dietary needs, it's actually kind of cool to consider. At least until some rabid non-meat eater begins bashing my diet because I love love LOVE things like carne guisada and pork chops and a nice grilled chicken breast. And suddenly, I'm back to not liking vegetarians because of that one particular experience, even though there's a lot to admired for their determination to try a different dietary route, you know?

 

I'll admit, I get a bit testy with people, being in the business of introducing Jesus to people and hearing all kinds of crap about pedophile priests because I'm Catholic, and about two-timing televangelists and whacked out parents who justify abuse because their "religion" tells them that's what they're supposed to do in order to keep their families in line. I see the other side of it, the normal people who truly *do* try to live as Christ preaches, who chose to be love-mongers ... but it still feels like bashing when all you hear is the negative stuff. Not that those things aren't happening, but like I said, it's a few bad apples that make the whole orchard appear rotten!

 

back on topic: I did read the link posted about the BAC mama who doesn't believe in promoting her child's self-esteem, and am thinking that she possibly means that she's not going to feed them falsely so that they can learn to be centered in Christ ... however, it *is* worrisome that she's harping on how evil her baby is, how evil mankind is, rather than encouraging that child to be good because she has it in her to be good ... and that when she slips up, there's this thing called forgiveness that will help her to understand what went wrong and help her grow from that experience.

[JamesM]

...every zealous Christian parent I've ever known has been very emotionally and physically abusive toward their children.

 

...and therefore, it must be true that ALL Christian parents are VERY emotionally and physically abusive towards their children.

 

Odd...MOST Christian parents that I know (and I am guessing that I know a lot more) are not physically or emotionally abusive. Their children turn out quite happy, and the families are very close and have well balanced home lives.

 

However, not all. I know of some supposedly Christian families that have been abusive, have had divorces, have had affairs, and the list goes on. It must be obvoius even to those who are not Christians that people who say they are Christians are not Christians because they say so. One must be able to show through actions that they are Christians. And yes, I know this will lead into some direction unknown by me, but think of it this way. I can tell you that the tree in my backyard is an apple tree, but if you come over and see oranges on it, you will say I am crazy. And I can tell you that I am of African American descent and have black skin, but if you meet me in person and see that I have white skin, no amount of talking by me will convince you that I am right.

 

So it goes with Christians.

 

I could easily say that "every" (fill in the blank) I know is a child molester, therefore, all (fill in the blank) are child molester.

 

And no, a few bad apples do not make for a bad orchard. This means that since there are black people who are criminals, women who are sluts, and gays who are pedophiles, we should make the assumption that all gays, women, and blacks are to be considered just as bad.

 

SO it goes. While this lady may have a certain view of self-esteem, this does not mean that all women have this view of self-esteem.

[theBrokenMuse]

back on topic: I did read the link posted about the BAC mama who doesn't believe in promoting her child's self-esteem, and am thinking that she possibly means that she's not going to feed them falsely so that they can learn to be centered in Christ ... however, it *is* worrisome that she's harping on how evil her baby is, how evil mankind is, rather than encouraging that child to be good because she has it in her to be good ... and that when she slips up, there's this thing called forgiveness that will help her to understand what went wrong and help her grow from that experience.

It's not even that she's not bolstering it, she herself says that children should not feel good about themselves and although it appears she actually seems to have edited her entry quite a bit, there was a line in there that said that her daughter was learning that there is nothing good about her but even without that line this is what I see that bothers me: This is a child that wakes up every morning and announces she is going to be good today. Anyone with children knows this is not a normal thought process for a four year old. Then again in the evening, she is asking her mother if she managed to be good only to have anything she didn't do right rattled off by her mother so that she knows how badly she's failed. This child is desperately trying to seek the approval of her Mother and is being shot down every single day. I can't imagine this child growing up to believe that she is anything other than a screw up. She'll probably lack the self-confidence to tie her own shoes without the intervention of Jesus. That's troubling to me to say the least.

[JamesM]

Now I have read the article and blog. I wonder how many others have done so.

 

I go on record as agreeing with MOST of what she has written. Not all. We as Christians do teach our children that all good comes from God and their eternal salvation is given to them through Jesus Christ. While I do not tell my children that they are worthless and can do no good, it would be remiss of me to say that they can do good based on what they themselves do rather than on what the common grace of God has made possible. My children do not run around with an "oh woe is me" attitude about things. This does not mean that they are not confident in how they handle life and its problems.

 

That is not what this article is about. It simply speaks of our motives and inner heart and attitude concerning out spiritual life. We are wretched sinners and we do need the salvation of Jesus Christ if we will live eternally. Our self should be humbled by the grace that is offered to us despite what we are.

 

This does not mean that our children (or us for that matter) should consider themselves worthless and wretched in their daily lives. This does not mean that they should not feel confident and proud of their achievements. And I think that this lady does not mean that this is the case either.

 

One thing I have learned is that people do not have a problem with loving themselves. Yes, they may be depressed and say they do not love themselves, but almost every one of them really mean to say that they do not think others appreciate them as they should be appreciated.

 

Self hate is not our society's problem, but narcissism is. Abuse of our bodies is a problem, but this does not mean we do not love ourselves. Rather it simply means that we use this as a way of showing anger towards ourselves.

 

While I do not completely agree with everything, I respect Jean for her beliefs. I do not think in any way that it will cause her little girl to turn out as an abused child. I am willing to guess that if we sat in at her house and watched her interact with her child, we would be impressed at how loving and caring she is towards her child.

 

I highly doubt based on reading her words that Jean tells her child every day that you are worthless. Nor does it appear that she does not tell her that she did a good job.

 

In her own words:

Sometimes during the day or before bed, she always asks me if she has been good, and I always try to be as honest as I can with her, and I will tell her what she has done wrong if I can remember. If she has been better than usual I will praise her and tell her.

 

Would it be better to say, "You have been a good girl today, You have done as well as you could have done." This is not true and gives false reassurance. If I crashed my car and my wife said, "You did as good as you could have"...despite the fact that I drove in front of someone while talking on my cell phone, what does this say to me?

 

Children learn from mistakes as we do. Giving them false reassurances build up their self esteem with "fluff" and not real confidences.

 

 

 

The reactions to her words are blown way out of proportion IMO.

[JamesM]

This child is desperately trying to seek the approval of her Mother and is being shot down every single day. I can't imagine this child growing up to believe that she is anything other than a screw up. She'll probably lack the self-confidence to tie her own shoes without the intervention of Jesus. That's troubling to me to say the least.

 

Reread the blog, and I think you can see that she DOES praise her child. (See my above quote). BUT what she does not do, it simply heap praises on her as if she does no wrong. This is not reality. It does not prepare children for the real world. Instead it builds them up with the false idea that "I am great and am as perfect as I can be given the circumstances." We need to realize that every day, we do wrong, bad, and fail. Every day is a learning experience. We are far from perfect and need to be told when we fail if we are ever to improve.

 

And yes, we need Jesus. Every day could be your last....and then what?

 

I think you are reading these words wrong and taking them out of context.

[theBrokenMuse]

Reread the blog, and I think you can see that she DOES praise her child. (See my above quote). BUT what she does not do, it simply heap praises on her as if she does no wrong. This is not reality. It does not prepare children for the real world. Instead it builds them up with the false idea that "I am great and am as perfect as I can be given the circumstances." We need to realize that every day, we do wrong, bad, and fail. Every day is a learning experience. We are far from perfect and need to be told when we fail if we are ever to improve.

 

And yes, we need Jesus. Every day could be your last....and then what?

 

I think you are reading these words wrong and taking them out of context.

 

Number one, the blog entry was changed, number two, the example you set is bogus. You can't compare the comprehension of an adult and that of a four year old child.

 

Do you have children James? If so, how often do they come to you asking questions about how good they are? Do you really think it's normal for a four year old to think about being good first theing when they wake up and the last thing before going to bed? Little children don't obsess over things like this and you don't need a psychology degree to figure out that this child is trying to live up to an impossible standard set by her mother because children crave the approval of their parents. No child is ever going to be perfect but you don't tear down four year olds. As another commentor on that blog put it:

 

As I read your post I thought it was awesome. People have pictured you telling your child she is evil and has no good in her, and yet you never told her that. She came to that conclusion on her own, as she discovered it ON HER OWN , that she cannot be good. Not that it would be wrong of you to tell her that. I grew up in a christian home and still believed I had so much good in me.And my parents believed the way you do. They did tell me they were proud of me, yet I felt I was never good enough. That's because I was not.

 

That person pretty much sums it up better than I ever could. That is exactly what the problem is. The above quote could easily be written by that child in the very near future. This parenting style tears down children when they are just learning how to have self-confidence. Is it any wonder it produces self-loathing adults?

[marlena]

Would you consider that to be emotional abuse given what we know about the role of self-esteem in a child's development?

 

Of course, it's abuse...of the worst kind IMO. It is breaking a child's soul, fragmenting his personality and causing irreversible trauma. I would go so far as to say that it could cause a psychotic break in the child, whether at the early stages of his development or much later, when he has reached adulthood.

 

Totally unacceptable...no, criminal. If I were to notice something like this, I would alert the authorities.

[JamesM]

Number one, the blog entry was changed, number two, the example you set is bogus. You can't compare the comprehension of an adult and that of a four year old child.

 

I can only go by what I read. For all I know, she could have called her child demon-possessed. If I did not read that, then I cannot comment on that. My comments are based on what I read today at the time I posted my comments.

 

No, you cannot compare the comprehension of an adult to that of a child, NOR can you compare your interpretation of how the child is interpreting the mother's comments with your adult interpretation. You are doing the same thing I am but from a different angle.

 

Do you have children James?

 

Yes. Like you I have boys. Do you find that your two boys have different personalities and different questions with different responses to situations?

 

If so, how often do they come to you asking questions about how good they are?

 

Truthfully, not often. But I can say that they do go to their mother more often with some of those kind of questions. And having four children, I can say that they have different types of questions and different thoughts. They have asked about God and who He is and what salvation is and what sin is, etc. I give them honest answers.

 

You are right in one sense. Answers given incorrectly can create an unnecessary fear of death and sin. It is important to show that there is a God who loves them and has provided a way of salvation for them.

 

Do you really think it's normal for a four year old to think about being good first thing when they wake up and the last thing before going to bed?

 

No. Since Jean has three children, then I would only be concerned if all three children have the same obsession. I am guessing that this four year old is different.

 

As a mother, she needs to realize that her responses to this child may be taken differently. If a child knows that being good by herself is not possible without Jesus and this brings her to conversion, then this is a good response. However, if every day she obsesses about being good and thinks she needs to meet some high standard before she is accepted, then her mother is not responding properly to this child's needs.

 

Little children don't obsess over things like this and you don't need a psychology degree to figure out that this child is trying to live up to an impossible standard set by her mother because children crave the approval of their parents. No child is ever going to be perfect but you don't tear down four year olds.

 

I am not seeing where the mother is setting up some high standard to meet. Rather I think she may be overemphasizing verbally or in actions that the girl will never be good on her own. And I think she needs to point out to the girl what "being good" spiritually versus being good in every day activities means.

 

Little children should not obsess over getting cancer and other illnesses either, but one of my boys does so occasionally. Another one is more concerned with having spiders crawling over his head while he is in bed.

 

This is not normal behavior for children, and it takes us as parents to speak against such obsessions.

 

Does that mean that I should tell my one child that he will never get sick and die, or to the other that no spiders will ever walk above his head? No. I do tell him that it is unlikely that he will die from cancer, and I do tell him that he has no symptoms of it, and to the other I do show him that currently there are no spiders in the room (or if there are, I kill them with him watching). But to say to the one that he will never get cancer would be false reassurances...especially considering the fact that he has an aunt that died at the same age he is. And if I tell the other that no spiders will come in the room while he is sleeping, then I will lose all credibility quickly especially since there are spiders found in our house every day.

 

The mother is not setting impossible standards. She is saying that this girl cannot be perfect and sinless. Only Jesus can be that and only Jesus can make us pure. I do think that she needs to be told over and over that "being good" should not be her goal. As I stated before, I do not agree with everything Jean has stated in her blog.

 

Honesty to our children is not "tearing" them down. If I told my boy that he could die from cancer every day, then that would be wrong. Taking the time to show him that his worries are mostly unfounded is important. But to say that he will never die and never get cancer is false reassurances.

 

What is necessary is to tell that little girl and my children that they do not need to be good to be accepted by me or God. Meeting some high standards of perfection may be a worthy goal for improvement, but it will not make them worth more or less. They are sinful and need God's salvation, but they are loved in spite of that. I love my children for whom they are as they are and not only if they become perfect or "good."

 

This is the most important thing to tell children....you are loved despite whom you are. You are accepted for who you are. As parents, saying this is not false reassurance but is loving truth and honesty.

 

This parenting style tears down children when they are just learning how to have self-confidence. Is it any wonder it produces self-loathing adults?

 

The best parenting style is one that loves children for whom they are with no set of high expectations or false set of reassurances that give a false sense of self-esteem.

 

Of course, it's abuse...of the worst kind IMO. It is breaking a child's soul, fragmenting his personality and causing irreversible trauma. I would go so far as to say that it could cause a psychotic break in the child, whether at the early stages of his development or much later, when he has reached adulthood.

 

 

For those who do not believe in a God, any form of teaching about God is considered child abuse. For those of us who have discovered there is a God, not teaching children about God is child abuse. I think that may be behind some of the negative responses to this blog.

[marlena]

I think people should stop pounding religious dogma into children's brains and let them grow up and decide for themselves what and if they want to believe.