Strange story: my 'girlfriend' has a 50yr-old fiancé...

[theBrokenMuse]

I didn't say I don't want advice! I said I asked specific questions.

What happened here is that I asked something like "How to find gold on the moon?", and almost everyone started answering something like "Why waste time and effort going to the moon to look for gold when you can look for it here as well?"

 

Bad analogy. It's like someone coming here and asking, "How can I make my husband stop beating me?" The answer isn't going to be a thoughtful list of ways to better please her husband. The answer is going to be to get the hell out. When people partake of toxic relationships, which this one sounds like to a "t", you don't give advice how to keep the poison flowing in their lives. It's counter productive in the long run for them, even if their judgment is too clouded to see it.

 

You think that facial expressions show her sincerity. Do some actual research into personality disorders like NPD and understand how utterly useless that type of examination is. They don't act like robots, for cripes sakes. They are actually extremely skilled actors because they indeed do need to fake much emotion in order to feed off of others. You want to know why she's posted these pictures? Because she's ether reckless or thinks the wife is an idiot or perhaps like the typical NPD personalities, she just doesn't really care what happens to him.

[EndlessSecrets]

Bad analogy. It's like someone coming here and asking, "How can I make my husband stop beating me?" The answer isn't going to be a thoughtful list of ways to better please her husband. The answer is going to be to get the hell out. When people partake of toxic relationships, which this one sounds like to a "t", you don't give advice how to keep the poison flowing in their lives. It's counter productive in the long run for them, even if their judgment is too clouded to see it.

 

No. It really depends on how much the person can sustain it in a rational way, how much cold-blooded that person is. I am a rationalist, with the creative mind of an engineer, or an artist (One of the reasons why I don't care about other girls is that I am actually not even pursuing [romantic] love or relationships, nor sex - at least not in the standard meaning of those words!).

However, my creativity and rationality are not enough as I lack the specific experience with this kind of people... and as you can imagine from the words I have used so far, my emotions also came into play this time and taken away my clarity of mind.

 

Nor do I have enough experience to formulate a sincere idea on how to stop a husband beating his wife, but rather than suggesting her to run away from the relationship I would address her question and at least try to formulate a strategy that will be helpful in transforming the toxic relationship into a healthy one - if that is her objective.

If her true objective is "a healthy relationship with a good man", in that case I will help her to quit the current one and find someone else.

But that scenario is way different from my own objective...

 

If she asked me why her husband beats her, I would do what you just did. Now that you elaborated your opinion more in detail, I have a clearer understanding of the situation (which is all I needed in first place!); and I'll research more about NPD. Seems interesting.

 

EDIT:

I started reading a few articles about NPD, especially on the website by Sam Vaknin. Initially, I tried to find similarities between what are called the symptoms and her behavior, but failed to find any, unless I heavily re-interpreted everything she said.

What striked me most is that many of the NPD symptoms actually reflect the person I used to be some years ago...

-"Haughty" body language (overcome after I did lots of dance and acting/drama classes)

-Entitlement markers

-The "membership" posture (many people complain that I still do this, but I'm never aware...)

-Bragging and false autobiography (well, I still do this )

-Emotion-free language (see above...)

-Seriousness and sense of intrusion and coercion[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=4] [/sIZE][/FONT](now, no more...)

[theBrokenMuse]

No. It really depends on how much the person can sustain it in a rational way, how much cold-blooded that person is.

Sustaining something that is bad for them isn't thinking rationally to begin with. When people are dwelling on things which are completely unimportant in comparison to the bigger picture it's hardly rational. That is why the woman who is getting beaten and you both need input you didn't ask for. If someone comes into the ER and asks for help with a broken toe when they have a gangrene limb, you don't concentrate on the toe first, you dive into the more pressing problem.

 

However, my creativity and rationality are not enough as I lack the specific experience with this kind of people... and as you can imagine from the words I have used so far, my emotions also came into play this time and taken away my clarity of mind.

 

I agree.

Nor do I have enough experience to formulate a sincere idea on how to stop a husband beating his wife, but rather than suggesting her to run away from the relationship I would address her question and at least try to formulate a strategy that will be helpful in transforming the toxic relationship into a healthy one - if that is her objective.

 

Which is a horrible idea that only helps to validate that it is under her control to change the patterns of abuse being dished out by another person. Which is false and dangerous.

 

If her true objective is "a healthy relationship with a good man", in that case I will help her to quit the current one and find someone else.

But that scenario is way different from my own objective...

 

But you are asking questions which no one can answer except her and are avoiding the real issue. Why she is doing that which she is doing is irrelevant when compared to the fact that she is. Regardless of why, she is mistreating you and you are allowing it to continue. As a matter of fact, from what you have stated it almost seems like you would like to turn a blind eye to the whole thing if you were given a reason to think that she had any scraps of feeling for you. In essence, from what you have written, you appear to be okay with selling yourself short or being used by this girl. That is what I take issue with.

 

Now that you elaborated your opinion more in detail, I have a clearer understanding of the situation (which is all I needed in first place!); and I'll research more about NPD. Seems interesting.

 

EDIT:

I started reading a few articles about NPD, especially on the website by Sam Vaknin. Initially, I tried to find similarities between what are called the symptoms and her behavior, but failed to find any, unless I heavily re-interpreted everything she said.

What striked me most is that many of the NPD symptoms actually reflect the person I used to be some years ago...

-"Haughty" body language (overcome after I did lots of dance and acting/drama classes)

..)

 

I clearly, don't have even close to enough knowledge of this girl to make any kind of actual diagnosis of any kind, of course. There are many different disorders and personality defects that cause people to crave attention, validation, and things of that nature at the expense of those around them but giving it a label doesn't change the circumstances anyhow, what's important is that she's not operating like an emotionally healthy person and it doesn't bode well for you.

[EndlessSecrets]

Sustaining something that is bad for them isn't thinking rationally to begin with.

Perhaps what you mean is "not being empathic/sensitive". Thinking rationally is something different. It doesn't make any value judgment of "good" or "bad" in first place. What I mean is "setting a formula, ingredients, strategies", regardless of good or bad.

 

If someone comes into the ER and asks for help with a broken toe when they have a gangrene limb, you don't concentrate on the toe first, you dive into the more pressing problem.

Since you mention this analogy, let me tell you that despite my lack of experience, it is because of ERs (and hasty doctors in general) who preferred concentrating on what they thought was most important - instead of listening to what I was complaining about - that I became permanently disabled. Sometimes people should really just listen instead of drawing assumptions based on their own prejudice and what they think is "good" or "best"...

 

But you are asking questions which no one can answer except her...

I am asking for strategies, positive actions, ideas... I don't think it would be very wise to ask her "Hey, I think you are only playing around with me. How can I be sure to win your genuine interest and be attractive to you? How can I make you really fall in love with me?"

I can't believe that out of 450+ people who have read this discussion, not one single soul can come up with ideas. Perhaps I might have obtained different answers by asking differently...?!

 

Regardless of why, she is mistreating you and you are allowing it to continue. As a matter of fact, from what you have stated it almost seems like you would like to turn a blind eye to the whole thing if you were given a reason to think that she had any scraps of feeling for you. In essence, from what you have written, you appear to be okay with selling yourself short or being used by this girl. That is what I take issue with.

OK...

Firstly, I still have no 100% evidence that she is consciously mistreating me. All my friends still agree that she isn't. I emphasize again that it's difficult to convey the whole picture on a discussion forum, and perhaps the way I depicted to whole story from the first original post gave everyone a negative first impression.

Secondly, if she is indeed mistreating me, it is in my style to look for an alternative non-bold, non-confrontational way to first understand the root cause of her behavior and then at least try changing the dynamics of the relationship.

Finally, again, I re-emphasize... even if I chose to turn a blind eye and sell myself short and be used by this girl, it is my own business. Should I fail in my ambition to understand her and truly gain her heart, however much I try, it is my own problem and you can still sleep peaceful nights... don't worry about me. Please.

[norajane]

We can't come up with any ideas because it's really hard to win someone over electronically. You're at a major disadvantage to anyone who is actually there in person with her.

 

If she were the kind of person who had a thriving inner life, then you'd have more than a passing chance if you were in some way appealing and intriguing to her inner self. However, it's hard to imagine that she is that kind of person when the way she lives her life is to spend it with a married, older man.

 

You're probably one of few people she actually communicates some of her inner thoughts to, whatever they may be. And perhaps that's where your appeal lies. And makes her think you're special.

 

However, that's a smaller part of who she is, a smaller part of what's important to her. In the big picture, she lives her life as that girl on Facebook, not the girl she is with you. That's what she prefers, or things would be different. She wouldn't be seeing a married, older man, for one thing.

 

For you to win her over, her preferences and priorities need to shift. How do you change someone's values? How can we possibly give you ideas on that? Time and life experience is the only thing that can change a person's values.

 

So unless you change yourself into what she wants right now, it's not likely there's anything you can do except be yourself and hope that, one day, she might realize that the people in her life aren't going to lead to happiness and satisfaction for her, and she needs to seek different things.

[theBrokenMuse]

Perhaps what you mean is "not being empathic/sensitive". Thinking rationally is something different. It doesn't make any value judgment of "good" or "bad" in first place. What I mean is "setting a formula, ingredients, strategies", regardless of good or bad.

 

Then you'd be twisting the meaning of rational. Rational means logical (unless in a mathematical context of course) and yes there can be right and wrong, good and bad within a rational context. I don't even know how on Earth you could possibly say otherwise.

 

Since you mention this analogy, let me tell you that despite my lack of experience, it is because of ERs (and hasty doctors in general) who preferred concentrating on what they thought was most important - instead of listening to what I was complaining about - that I became permanently disabled. Sometimes people should really just listen instead of drawing assumptions based on their own prejudice and what they think is "good" or "best"...

 

While the doctor that took care of you obviously made a really bad judgment call but most of the time, they are more adept at trouble shooting the problem then a layman. The patient doesn't have the same level of understanding, knowledge or or training as the doctor, if he chooses to look at one symptom over another that a patient is complaining more loudly about, it's usually because their training and experience indicates that symptom is more problematic. That's not prejudice, that's called doing their job.

 

I am asking for strategies, positive actions, ideas... I don't think it would be very wise to ask her "Hey, I think you are only playing around with me. How can I be sure to win your genuine interest and be attractive to you? How can I make you really fall in love with me?"

 

Because quite honestly, if a person feels that their advice is only going to be helping someone to mess up their own lives, a lot of people don't feel compelled to help that to occur.

I can't believe that out of 450+ people who have read this discussion, not one single soul can come up with ideas. Perhaps I might have obtained different answers by asking differently...?!

 

Norajane was nice enough to answer and I'd agree with most of what she has to say, spot on. OK...

Firstly, I still have no 100% evidence that she is consciously mistreating me. All my friends still agree that she isn't.

 

I wouldn't give a damn if your entire graduating high school class thought this. It doesn't take a genius to figure out: She is openly seeing an older married man that she calls her fiance, while she's having her fun with you on the side. This shows no, none, nada, zip, zlich amount of respect for you but apparently, that's perfectly okay with you, given what you've written. Well, at least we know that if that level of non-existent self-esteem doesn't drive her away, nothing will. Let's face it, nothing is less attractive then a doormat.

 

You are no rationalist when it comes to this girl. You have bent over backwards to make every excuse you can for horrible behavior on her part. You've even tried to paint her as a victim of sorts (Perhaps she was seduced. Maybe she's unable to break away type of excuses) without any evidence to make that illogical jump. You bat away reality and demand more and better evidence when all the facts a person would need to make a clear, concise decision are right there in front of you. Sad.

 

Don't worry I won't be bothering you again. I don't wish to waste my breath on the willfully ignorant.

[Magpies]

EndlessSecrets,

 

I'm not gonna judge you or your actions. At the day's end, you're the only one that has to deal with your decisions, no matter what anyone thinks, it's you that controls your happiness.

 

If for whatever reason you chose to accept all it all -- if you think that not having her is worse than living with the lies, then do whatever you think that will make you happy. But you must take the same amount of consideration and ask yourself that if by accepting it all and being whatever it is that you are to her -- can truly be happy?

 

In the end, will it lead to your own happiness? Perhaps thinking longterm isn't even imaginable, but then think of the turmoil you've put yourself in last week, last night, last month.

 

Whatever it is that you choose, know the facts first and arrange everything around that. Love, no matter how liberal and open-minded a person is, it is a force that makes the people involved think of each other's happiness before theirs. You seem to do this for her ... does she do this for you? Has she done this for you? But most importantly, can you truly accept it all - all that has happened and all that you've allowed to happen and be happy? Is it really worth it?

 

I hope you get the answers you're looking for. Good luck to you.

[EndlessSecrets]

We can't come up with any ideas because it's really hard to win someone over electronically. You're at a major disadvantage to anyone who is actually there in person with her.

 

If she were the kind of person who had a thriving inner life, then you'd have more than a passing chance if you were in some way appealing and intriguing to her inner self. However, it's hard to imagine that she is that kind of person when the way she lives her life is to spend it with a married, older man.

 

You're probably one of few people she actually communicates some of her inner thoughts to, whatever they may be. And perhaps that's where your appeal lies. And makes her think you're special.

 

However, that's a smaller part of who she is, a smaller part of what's important to her. In the big picture, she lives her life as that girl on Facebook, not the girl she is with you. That's what she prefers, or things would be different. She wouldn't be seeing a married, older man, for one thing.

 

For you to win her over, her preferences and priorities need to shift. How do you change someone's values? How can we possibly give you ideas on that? Time and life experience is the only thing that can change a person's values.

 

So unless you change yourself into what she wants right now, it's not likely there's anything you can do except be yourself and hope that, one day, she might realize that the people in her life aren't going to lead to happiness and satisfaction for her, and she needs to seek different things.

 

Thank you for the insight, norajane.

 

I agree with most of what you say.

 

1) I still can't understand why she would waste so many hours staying online chatting with me, a person she hasn't seen since years, a person she cannot boast about with her friends or on Facebook. There must be something stronger than just the attention I give her that makes her want to webcam with me, send me romantic text messages on my phone late at night (consider that the cost of sending these messages from overseas is quite high...). Plus, she reciprocates the attention, and it's her who usually initiates the romantic conversations.

Given all these things, what else could she want from me?

Even if all the nice things she is telling me are 100% lies, what gain would she have from doing so?

Even if everything, including the non-romantic things we discuss about daily, were completely fake, why would she waste her time doing so?

 

2) I don't know what you include in the term 'inner life', but from our non-romantic conversations I know we get along very well; we have an incredibly large amount of traits in common and that makes the dynamics of our contact spontaneous (at least apparently).

If, as you said, the "big picture" of her life is on Facebook, am I not some kind of different/secret friend to her? Consider the fact that I rarely use Facebook; my Facebook profile is limited to my name and two or three funny sentences about my university. No profile info, no information about my interests, etc. not a single photo of me, no Wall [i removed it especially because I am quite privacy-minded... I have 783 'friends' from totally different contexts, including relatives and colleagues, and I don't want them to read what my college friends write...]. If someone judged me by merely looking at my Facebook profile, they would think I don't even exist.

Could there be some explanation in this? Do you think I might produce different reactions in her by changing my way of using Facebook?

 

3) I agree that time and life experience are needed to shift one's romantic preferences and priorities. But first of all, I am not sure I was able to understand her preferences, since, whenever I try to ask, she starts talking about me. e.g. she tells me that I am the "sweetest of her secret thoughts". Even when I form very subtle questions, she seems to understand what I'm trying to ask, and doesn't really answer directly...

I:"What do you appreciate most in a man you love?"

She:"Nothing... I'm a crazy girl. When I fall in love I just do crazy things..."

How can I better understand her preferences and priorities?

I know it is difficult electronically, but any ideas are appreciated...

 

Thank you.

[The LDR-er]

Hi EndlessSecrets,

 

It is actually very interesting when reading your story, and i admire your determination in trying to find out the truth and the meaning behind all of this, but coming from a person who have just read the story.

 

I would say this girl sounds like she is very insecure as she need more than one man in her life, also if what you said about "The Man" being married is true, that also back up my theory of her being insecure, the fact being able to trap a married man at a young age, and not feeling any moral obligating against it, i would say she properly feels good about it as she is insecure about her status in life, often extroverts are very insecure about their self, that why they need to be loud and very social-able to define their character in the surroundings they are in and to hide their real self. By talking to u though the web cam and via text message, sounds like she see you as an escape window to her everyday busy life, with you maybe she feels like she can be her-self, and not having to worry about her social status, and for an extrovert if she feels that what she is doing is complicated in the real surroundings she is living in, paying for a few overseas message and webcam is not a big price to pay if she thinks this will give her the balance back. Although loving messages and the constant of facial expression might indicate she cares and have feeling for you, but it does not change the fact that she is in a way dating 2 men at a time,

 

I know u said u are an open minded person and u think she might be trapped in the wealthy materials and promises that this older man is making and bringing, and she is looking for a more romantic escape which is you, but don't you think you hav talked or msn her enough for her to realise you are her escape? and if so why is she still with that man? maybe the real fact is that this girl is just using you as an escape to her real life, as she has no physical dedication to you, only via electronic device.

 

I am sorry to break this to you, and of cos you will have objection to what i have wrote, but i feel that since you are a open minded person, you seem to me very interesting in finding out the reason behind all of this, and not really trying to get this girl, instead you are more into proving your theories about this girl and her relationship with this man and why she is doign this to you, as you wrote this in previous messages "one of the reasons why I don't care about other girls is that I am actually not even pursuing [romantic] love or relationships, nor sex - at least not in the standard meaning of those words!)".

 

so think you hav to work out whether you want this girl? or you just want the truth, but what i think of you right now is that even if you do get this girl and find out all the reasons behind this story you might not be with her for long, as all the mystery are solved and you will no longer be interested in her.

 

maybe I am wrong but this is the general feeling i got from all your replies to the others. hope you get what you want thou, in the end we all have different style of living, some chose to tackle the difficult in order to feel they have achieved something.