33-yr-old wife is at a crossroads: have kids or get divorced

[TrustInYourself]

TIY, you're right. His negatives are things I viewed as exotic and exciting when I met him. His conservative views bring me different viewpoints to consider. In the early years, I liked that we could dialogue about our liberal vs. conservative ideas. He grew more socially liberal and I voted his way in 2000, of my own choice. It was an exchange.

 

Similarly, his love of the outdoors helped me get outside myself. Church, something new for me, brought to me a new understanding of community. And he was open to my wacky family, at least enough to spend time with them.

 

What went sour first was our physical relationship. You suggested I demand of him what I want. We went to MC so I could express those needs. But I think they are basic, physical, chemical, and anatomical problems. Our "pieces" don't fit.

 

From there, perhaps I created the other problems as an excuse to leave. I know that for a long time, as part of my appreciation for our differences and the alternative viewpoints he brought to me, I changed myself for him. Growing up, I moved a lot, so I came to be good at adapting to my environment. I adapted to my H by dressing the way he wanted, spending time the way he suggested, etc. In MC, I realized I needed to remember my identity.

 

It has been an adjustment for my H to let me be me, to let me wear what I want to wear, go out when I want to go out, vote for who I want to vote for. I understand this. He thought he had a wife who was willing to become Presbyterian (I joined our church), who was willing to listen to different political views and vote his way, and who was willing to be conventional and be married forever.

 

But I am not sure I'm that person. I don't identify as Presbyterian, although I am still a member of our church. I voted my way. I am not conventional. I don't want to be a suburban housewife (at least not right now). I don't even know if marriage is right for me. I communicated some of this to him in MC. He has been disappointed but he still loves me and he believes in working through our problems no matter what. I think that is amazing.

 

Exactly, this man has his outstanding points and strengths. There were reasons you married him, lol. The question is how do you bring this man out of his shell so he can satisfy you? Well, that's tricky. Can we change our spouses? No.

 

They have to value change enough to change themselves. If you are intent on changing him, you won't find happiness or peace of mind. If you are intent on focusing on his faults, how can you love him? You're placing expectations that are bound to fail, especially if you are taking actions that reinforce his behavior.

 

So what needs to happen? What happens now? What needs to change? Telling him specifically, that he is a cold fish? Demanding that he blow your mind sexually? These actions have not worked in the past. What has worked? What has brought this man out? If nothing, then you need to evaluate what actions you have been taking. This is all based on one premise. You have all the power in the world in your relationship. Many people say that it takes two for change to occur. Not true. One person is 50% of a relationship and that's enough to create change.

 

In my time on this forum, I've discussed issues with some men who just couldn't even kiss their wives intimately on a regular basis. Why is that? Some men just have their issues. Does that mean it's time for divorce? That's not my call. That's your call.

 

Part of the miracle of marriage is how two people can learn from each other and grow.

 

Have you read Men are from Mars, Women from Venus? Saving my Marriage by Michelle Weiner-Davis? Those are some interesting books that have optimistic, success based practices. Best wishes, girl!

 

p.s.- What is your husband's mindset on all this?

[Fearful Wife]

You are not doing a single constructive positive thing for your marriage.

 

1) You need to tell him that you feel you are a disappointment to him and these feelings are detrimental to the health of your marriage.

 

2) You cannot have a happy successful marriage unless you both feel as equals, as partners, and respected.

 

3) Neither one of you are meeting the other's emotional needs.

 

You have to make this very very clear to him that when he withdraws like that, you feel rejected.

 

The same can be said about you with regards to his hobbies. Every time you say no to his hobbies, you are rejecting him.

 

Every time you guys interact, you have a choice to either leave a positive impression or a negative impression.

 

These things HAVE to be talked about.

 

Dont be so cruel and selfish to make the decision on your own without at the very least giving him a chance.

 

If you want a healthy marriage, you have to work at it. Part of it is changing your own state of mind.

 

Dgiirl, I thought I was doing every possible thing to make the right decision.

 

In the effort to repair fissures in our marriage, we were in MC for two years and I was in IC for a year and a half. We chose specific, non-threatening times (such as once a week) to discuss our issues, and we went into MC with specific things to talk over.

 

Together we read the Mars, Venus book (which I think is sorely outdated and sexist in many ways), Mating in Captivity (which we both loved), How to Be a Great Lover, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and others.

 

Two years ago we took a trip to the Caribbean to try to rekindle the warm and fuzzy feeling.

 

We schedule regular "date nights."

 

I am doing the Landmark Forum in December in hopes it will help.

 

We have learned for the most part to respect each other's differences, though his comments about politics this year made me feel decidedly unrespected. As I wrote before, I do encourage his hobbies. I participate when I can. I also encourage him to find ways of enjoying his hobbies without me, so I can be free to follow my own interests.

 

I have told him that I fear I am a disappointment and that he needs a nice, conservative, Christian girl. He generally responds in a loving way that I am perfect for him. But I think he is dependent on me.

 

I feel tired. I feel tired of asking for affection.

 

Every morning my H gets out of bed first and goes to make coffee. Being left alone in bed, without a good-morning cuddle or even a peck, has been hard for me. Physical closeness is important to me, but I think not natural to him. For years--years dgiirl--I sweetly requested morning affection. Sometimes I would get out of bed and pad after him and hug him from behind, or come sit on his lap. But he would push me away. Do you know how painful this is? In the mornings, my H needs solitude and coffee before he can interact. I respect his needs but sacrifice my own. After being consistently rejected, I have stopped trying.

 

After years of coaxing, praising him when I did get little droplets of affection, and finally outright asking, in MC and at home, I have grown numb. By the time H is ready to give me affection, which is always right when he wants sex, I don't care anymore.

 

To sum up, dgiirl, we HAVE talked. We communicate well.

 

And as much as it hurts to admit it, you're right. I am not doing a single constructive thing for our marriage right now. I went through that phase and now I feel like I'm done.

 

Reading back over this post, I see that it sounds ridiculously defensive, like I'm justifying my willingness to give up. I don't have another answer right now.

 

They have to value change enough to change themselves. If you are intent on changing him, you won't find happiness or peace of mind. If you are intent on focusing on his faults, how can you love him? You're placing expectations that are bound to fail, especially if you are taking actions that reinforce his behavior.

 

Part of the miracle of marriage is how two people can learn from each other and grow.

 

p.s.- What is your husband's mindset on all this?

 

TIY, I feel like I've even tried to re-arrange my expectations to fit my H. But I don't want to live a passionless life.

 

This year for the first time, we are spending the Christmas holidays apart, he with his family, me with mine. We are hoping to miss each other.

 

You have all been a great help. Thank you for your thoughts.

[SingleDad]

You have all been so kind with SingleDad, I hope you might have words of wisdom for me as well.

 

My husband and I have been married for 4 years, together for 8. We're at that stage where we both want children, but I’m not sure our marriage is working. I'm horribly torn about whether to just go for it re: kids, or to separate and try to create different lives with other people.

 

Fearful wife - my ears were ringing... I think a lot of the feelings you are feeling are the same as what my STBXW was feeling. We had a sex deprived marriage... though not because we each didn't want it... our relationship was getting more and more distant and we were living for our daughter and our careers and our relations just got more distant. It became a downward spiral that happened too quickly - and she got out before I truly understood the problems we were having.

 

First - do not have a child together if you are not a warm loving couple dedicated to raising her up together and loving each other for better or for worse. Do not have a child if there is any thought in your mind of giving up on the marriage - marrriage is harder to maintain after having a child than before as the efforts are on the child and not on each other.

 

Second - you need to give your husband another warning shot across the bow - require you both go the marriage encounters weekend. Start dating dating each other like you did when you first met. My STBXW tried unsuccessfully to get through to me - It wasn't until she filed for divorce that I woke up to the reality of the severity of our issues - but by then it was too late for her. She made up her mind and wasn't looking back (she likely was already having an affair by then).

 

Third - start doing lots of reading and to wake up your thoughts of how to re-kindle your marriage. Go to marriagebuilders.com and read "Divorce Remedy" by Michelle Weiner-Davis.

 

Give your marriage a few months during this "wake-up call" to get your H off of auto-pilot and see if he comes around. If things do not change - then proceed with your course of action.

 

Even if they improve drastically - I would still wait another year of a great marraige before trying to have kids - unless it happens naturally.

 

Best wishes to you, SingleDad

[dgiirl]

To sum up, dgiirl, we HAVE talked. We communicate well.

 

And as much as it hurts to admit it, you're right. I am not doing a single constructive thing for our marriage right now. I went through that phase and now I feel like I'm done.

 

Reading back over this post, I see that it sounds ridiculously defensive, like I'm justifying my willingness to give up. I don't have another answer right now.

 

After reading your last post, let me give you my apologies. It sounds like you have done a great deal in the past to try and save this marriage. A lot more than most wayward spouses around here. Sadly, as an outsider, I dont get to see your whole story all at once and I can only comment on what I've read.

 

I still stand by my comments that a lot of what you are currently doing is destructive to your marriage, and if you continue that route, you will be divorced. Now whether that's right or wrong, that's for you to decide. There is definitely life after divorce. But until you make that decision, I will continue to be under the impression you want to save your marriage.

 

I also strongly believe that those core issues I pointed out need to be resolved in order to save this marriage. Believe me, I completely empathize and fully understand how you need the affection from your husband and how that tears you up inside. I was also in a marriage where I was deprived basic affection and felt I was beneath my husband, although slightly different feelings, the end result is there was no equal partnership and I felt horrible about myself constantly. You cannot be romantically attracted to someone who you feel horrible around. However, some of those feelings are based on your perception of things, some of those feelings are based on how he actually feels. Your job is to actually figure out what is the truth, if it's your perception, or how he feels, and once you know which it is, you need to address the problem by challenging your perceptions and changing them, or challenging your husband and making sure he doesnt treat you that way.

 

I question tho if your husband really truly gets it. I question if he acutally really understands that "Hey, my wife needs my love and affection, she needs me to do things for her so that she feels great about herself, and every time I refuse to meet these simple needs, I'm intentionally causing her a great amount of pain".

 

A lot of us blind spouses often need a 4x4 knocked up the side of our heads in order to get our attention. It's not because we are dumb or malicious or selfish, but often it's because we are in so much pain/frustration about the state of our marriage too that it's hard to see the situation clearly.

 

Have you tried telling your husband very directly that you need X, Y, and Z or you're filing for a divorce?

[Fearful Wife]

SingleDad, your message meant a lot to me as I know what you've been through.

 

I just ordered "The Divorce Remedy" from Amazon. I want to be able to say I did everything I could.

 

I also want my H and I to make the decision together, whatever it is. We do talk about our options. Just last night he agreed that separation might be a good idea. We are taking things slow and trying to do what is right.

 

I just read carefully the marriagebuilders.com Basic Concepts. It's true, our Love Banks are in tatters. I forwarded the link to my H, and tonight over dinner if he's up for it I'd like to go through our list of Emotional Needs and priorities.

 

I know what one of my high-priority needs are. Security and stability. I thought that over time, we would build on what we already had and be more independent of my H's parents. We are both building our businesses aggressively but at times my H exhibits signs of not being committed enough to his business. He is a bit of a late bloomer, and I think he will get there eventually but sometimes I don't trust that he really will. So in a way, I feel married to his parents, as they are our financial safety net.

 

It feels like a lie to be married to someone for what their family can provide. A horrible lie, and I'm ashamed of it. I also know I will never be fully satisfied with S&S until I am providing it for myself independently. My counselor helped me to see that. I am working to meet that goal.

 

I will need to think about what Emotional Needs I have that my H can fulfill for me directly. I know this sounds selfish. In those early years, my Giver was on overdrive and I forgot to look out for myself. Now my Taker is in charge and wants to know what I'm in this marriage for.

 

Thank you so much for warning me about the kids thing. My practical Left Brain has said "Just have them while you're still fertile and have access to in-laws who can educate them," but when we have sex my intuition kicks in and reaches for the birth control. We have definitely not been as careful, but I really really want to avoid getting pregnant until we have worked something out.

 

My biggest nightmare would be to have kids then break up, have my H move far away and have custody disagreements.

 

Dgiirl, thank you so much for the kind acknowledgment. We have talked about divorce in a non-threatening way so my H does realize the seriousness of our situation.

 

Just yesterday I said to him, "Waking up in the morning with some affection and cheerfulness makes me look forward to the day with you, whereas waking up to see you have left the bed without checking in with me makes me sad and think about divorce." It goes back to deposits and withdrawals into our Love Bank accounts.

 

My H is traditional and conservative, and I believe he would remain in an unhappy marriage just because his modeling is his parents' 40-year marriage and grandparents' 60-year marriage.

[TrustInYourself]

A book is just a tool. It takes someone committed to use it properly.

 

One of the reasons my wife left was to find out if she could make it. Her words, not mine. She found out, she could do it. But then what?

 

It's not even about communicating, even though that helps. It's about understanding what your expectations and reactions to your husbands expectations.

 

You want to focus on how bad a husband he is. That's just going to lead you down cheeseless tunnels. Focus on how bad you are, and what do you know, you actually can have a miraculous effect on 50% of the dynamic in your relationship.

 

Where do you model your marriage? You may want to evaluate why and how your model of marriage is better than his and where it's leading you.

[BlindleadingtheBlind]

Fearful Girl -- I came across your post last night and felt you could have just written my own story. I don't want to hijack your thread by going into details of my own. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in this.

 

I too have been trying to do all the right things. I'm 34 years old. I've been married for 8 years, together with my husband for 17+. We were teenagers when we first started dating. And like you, I was a giver and didn't realize it. When the realization hit, I turned into a taker of the worst kind.

 

I too have been resistant to the idea of kids, although have also toyed with it over the years. My husband has always wanted them, but I never felt ready. I now realize I felt completely trapped. The idea of having kids with my husband, a man I'm supposed to love and cherish, made me feel completely overwhelmed and unsupported. I knew deep down I didn't want to bring kids into the mix when having to face the decision of whether I wanted to continue being in this marriage.

 

I still consider my husband my best friend. We communicate well and enjoy each other's company. Our sex life is decent. But there's a hole there nonetheless, built over years of slowly seeping and growing resentment over things that seemed so small at the time that it felt silly to even bring it up. We had a long talk last Friday, and even in expressing my anger I felt silly. And yet, those incidents from long ago continue to hurt me.

 

In our case, we're already living apart due to job circumstances. I'll be spending the month of December with him, and we've agreed to go back into marriage counseling. I am hoping that we will not move forward without mutual agreement, but I also recognize that if I desire a separation and he does not, then at the end of December, I may have to insist.

 

The story of why that is is too long to go into here. But reading your story, I really felt it could have been mine as well.

 

So good luck -- I definitely empathize. It's a very tough decision to make.

[TrustInYourself]

I read this and I remember my wife telling me we would never have more children.

 

Now we contemplate it on a daily basis. It's subjective on the current marital situation.

 

Are your husbands dense? They sound like lamers if they can't adapt to basic needs and wants from the women they love. Then again, I guess if they were flexible and flippant, you wouldn't have married them, lol.

[pelicanpreacher]

 

I know what one of my high-priority needs are. Security and stability. I thought that over time, we would build on what we already had and be more independent of my H's parents. We are both building our businesses aggressively but at times my H exhibits signs of not being committed enough to his business. He is a bit of a late bloomer, and I think he will get there eventually but sometimes I don't trust that he really will. So in a way, I feel married to his parents, as they are our financial safety net.

 

It feels like a lie to be married to someone for what their family can provide. A horrible lie, and I'm ashamed of it. I also know I will never be fully satisfied with S&S until I am providing it for myself independently. My counselor helped me to see that. I am working to meet that goal.

 

Thank you so much for warning me about the kids thing. My practical Left Brain has said "Just have them while you're still fertile and have access to in-laws who can educate them," but when we have sex my intuition kicks in and reaches for the birth control. We have definitely not been as careful, but I really really want to avoid getting pregnant until we have worked something out.

 

My biggest nightmare would be to have kids then break up, have my H move far away and have custody disagreements.

 

Just yesterday I said to him, "Waking up in the morning with some affection and cheerfulness makes me look forward to the day with you, whereas waking up to see you have left the bed without checking in with me makes me sad and think about divorce." It goes back to deposits and withdrawals into our Love Bank accounts.

 

My H is traditional and conservative, and I believe he would remain in an unhappy marriage just because his modeling is his parents' 40-year marriage and grandparents' 60-year marriage.

 

I know you've said that you communicate well with your husband but have you ever spoken to him as directly and concisely as the exerpt I've emboldened? Remember, when you speak to your husband about problems you're having in the relationship to always innersplice positives as well for all work and no play make Jack a dull boy! Beating up on him incessantly will only depress him and make you look shrewish so strategize your next sit down to implement a "carrot and stick" approach to the subject matter so that he has something serious to contemplate and hope in your marriage for the future. (Note your recollection of "Dapper Dan")

 

I'd like to pm you with some risque ideas to spice things up and help you to break through his rigid sense of conservatism with your permission.

[Fearful Wife]

A book is just a tool. It takes someone committed to use it properly.

 

You want to focus on how bad a husband he is.

 

Where do you model your marriage? You may want to evaluate why and how your model of marriage is better than his and where it's leading you.

 

TIY, I do worry I'm not committed enough, but I'm going to get the books anyway. It gives me hope that on marriagebuilders.com Dr. Harley writes that couples usually come to him as a last resort, when one or both have already decided to get a divorce. And despite feeling that far gone, they've come back from the brink to recommit.

 

It also gives to me hope to hear you say your wife changed her mind about possibly having more children.

 

I didn't realize what a complainer I've been, but several of the responses here point to that. I didn't mean to focus on how bad my H is. I have said he is giving, generous, and kind. I'm know I'm trying to justify leaving. At the same time, I want to do things by "enthusiastic joint agreement" as marriagebuilders.com suggests.

 

My marriage model is very different from my H's. My parents divorced when I was 7, and I was happy and relieved. I identified with the Drew Barrymore character in the film "Irreconcilable Differences." My parents fought constantly and I felt their divorce was for the best. My mother remarried successfully, though I witnessed some pretty awful fights between her and my stepfather, too. My father remarried and re-divorced, and he is now on his third marriage.

 

I have not seen many marriages I respected or wanted for myself. Even those I would call "successful" have been through awful rocky points, or seem completely sterile. I can't imagine my in-laws being intimate. My H's mom is so reserved, just like my H.

 

I know I have a negative attitude toward marriage and I need to work to change it. I have sometimes thought I wouldn't get married again, that marriage in today's terms are Disney-fied and unrealistic, that monogamy is impossible. I want to believe in "true love" or whatever, but it seems a silly romantic notion that very few people can lay claim to.

 

I want to give you an idea of the panicky feeling I get sometimes in my marriage. Tonight my H went to a meeting for an organization he sometimes volunteers with. He returned happy and inspired. He has a project that is a combination of his art form and his volunteer activities. It is an unpaid artistic pursuit and the past few months he's been wrangling with it, how to develop it and finish it. This meeting inspired him to commit to this project in 2009. In his own words, "Come hell or high water, if I don't get freelance work next year, I will sell our stocks and devote all my time to this project." As someone who struggles with S&S, this completely freaked me out.

 

Now, the rational part of me knows he didn't mean it, knows he wouldn't quit working to do art full time (I think), knows he wouldn't be able to face his family, knows he was just exaggerating, knows he was just excited about his art and wanted to show his level of commitment to it. But the words were alarming. Scary. They made me want to run away and say "to hell with this" and start my own life away from that. The truth is, I know he will try to be responsible. I am more afraid that I will use his own words against him, as an excuse to leave him. I am afraid because of my tendency to jump at the chance to give up on us.

 

I want to support his dreams. I told him this, and asked him to use different words to show his excitement about his art, and I eventually calmed down. But I worry I'm not strong enough or good enough or stable enough to stick with it, stick with him. I worry I'll let go, and in so doing create a much harder life for myself.

 

TIY, by outside standards we have a very comfortable life. We are working our dream jobs, slowly building towards our ultimate career goals. We have a beautiful home. We have our health. Our families are healthy.

 

So I should probably shut up and be gracious and count my blessings. But instead I have this malaise because I fail to desire and feel passion for my H.

 

Are your husbands dense? They sound like lamers if they can't adapt to basic needs and wants from the women they love. Then again, I guess if they were flexible and flippant, you wouldn't have married them, lol.

LOL, sometimes I think my H is dense and sometimes I think I'M the idiot for "causing all the problems."

 

BlindleadingtheBlind, the reason marriagebuilders.com comes up so often on this site is because the advice is really eye-opening. I completely empathize with you, and even when I feel sure I want to leave, that little niggle of doubt causes me to re-evaluate. Can I recommend the Basic Concepts on that site? They take just 10-15 mins to read.

 

I would be happy to private message you for cameraderie--I don't know any other women in their mid-30s contemplating divorce--but I haven't figured out how to do that on this site.

 

PelicanPreacher, I try very hard to be kind and respectful with my H, and offer loving praise when I can.

 

One of the things I love about my H is his calmness in the face of conflict. Since I come from a childhood where things were volatile and people fought in loud and physical screaming matches, I value calmness, tranquility, respect, compromise, and quietude a lot. I will never forget the first time I tried to fight with my H, before we were married. I stormed out and waited to see if he would follow. He didn't. He refused to fight with me, refused to rise to the bait. I loved that about him, and I have brought his way into my interactions with my own family. I feel like he has made me into the adult I am today, and thank God. I have a much better relationship with my parents and siblings because of what I learned from my H.

[BlindleadingtheBlind]

Fearful Wife -- Your comment about your husband announcing he would give up everything to pursue his art. That struck a chord. One of the things I have identified through individual counseling is that I have felt like the one holding things together, and I'm resentful about it.

 

My husband went through a depression three years ago. I understand that a lot of my current feelings stem from our relationship back then. He refused to seek outside help, and I felt totally helpless and unable to help him.

 

We have talked about how I need to let the past go. And he is doing well now and working in a job he enjoys. But I still tense up, wondering if he's going to get fired from this job because he starts acting the same way he did back then.

 

I understand his career is not my responsibility, but he really put us through hell back then, and part of me wonders if I stayed these past few years to make sure he would be okay, so that once he was, I could leave.

 

I know this totally leaves out his side of the story, and how much he has supported and loved me. But I have felt like the only motor pushing this relationship and am so tired of it.

 

I've been to the marriagebuilders site and did find it helpful. But what I'm worried most about is the feeling that I'm simply done. That it's over and now I'm just going through the paces.

[TrustInYourself]

When you complain does your husband's behavior get better or worse?

 

When you bring up problems does that help?

 

If complaining makes him agitated and defensive, meaning less loving and sexual, why do it?

 

If when you bring up his problems, he gets angry or self-concious, why do it?

 

Base your behavior on what brings out the best in the man you married. The more you do that, the more you will find yourself in love. Vice versa.

[imagine]

 

I didn't realize what a complainer I've been, but several of the responses here point to that. I didn't mean to focus on how bad my H is. I have said he is giving, generous, and kind. I'm know I'm trying to justify leaving. At the same time, I want to do things by "enthusiastic joint agreement" as marriagebuilders.com suggests.

 

 

I just wanted to post to reconfirm my compliments of you . You are definitely pro-active towards the restoration of your marriage. The fact that you posted is "natural evidence" of this fact.

 

Isn't MB marvelous. I could have been your husband in many areas. Thanks to MB and chatting on this and the MB forum, my wife has experienced the changes. She says "I can't believe it took you thirteen years to "get it"!". The only criticism of me is that I spend a tad too much time on the forums.

 

Thank you for the link about the unfaithful gene. This was discussed previously. I invite you to compare Dr Harley's take. Yes, that we are ALL predisposed to unfaithfulness given the right circumstances. How's them onions, hey!

 

I tried in a previous posting to contact you privately to compare those similarities with your H and how I managed to overcome. Unfortunately I have advertised this site to colleagues and friends who know my nom de plume. This is why I cannot share those details publicly.

 

Please have your H contact me as soon as you are able to transmit private messages from Loveshack.

 

May your progress within your marriage help Blind see...

[Fearful Wife]

Imagine, thank you for your very nice words.

 

I would feel uncomfortable sending my H here. I did not write my posts with him in mind. He is very reserved and I think he would be uncomfortable. Likely this breaks the tenets of the "enthusiastic joint agreement" but, since he hasn't even read MB yet, I don't know that we're ready to start.

[Fearful Wife]

Blind, it's amazing some of the commonalities in our experiences. My H was depressed to the point of immobilization when I met him. I felt the need to "fix" him. I supported him emotionally through periods of unemployment, and we depended on his parents financially. To be fair, during that time he supported me in return by helping me feel less lonely and more secure, letting me join his family, etc. I think we can reach self-sufficiency someday, but I also wonder if he and I have outgrown each other, if we could each "do better," either on our own or with someone else.

 

I hate that feeling of just going through the paces. Honestly, it's how I felt when we entered MC three years ago. The counselor asked us on the first day what our goals for MC were. H said, "To strengthen our marriage." I said, "To find out if we should stay together or break up." But in the back of my mind, I thought, "To make the break up go more smoothly."

 

Our counselor said something very wise that day. He said one way of looking at MC is "A chance to put your differences on the table and decide if and how you want to work with them."

 

I would like to go back and see him again.

 

Blind, what are you planning to do?

[Fearful Wife]

When you complain does your husband's behavior get better or worse?

 

If complaining makes him agitated and defensive, meaning less loving and sexual, why do it?

 

Base your behavior on what brings out the best in the man you married.

 

TIY, I try not to complain. I try to request. I will say, "Please could you kiss me before leaving the bed in the morning?"

 

He will forget and I will request again, and he will forget again and then yes, I will complain. As a last resort, from feeling desperate.

 

He doesn't tend to get angry and agitated, a testament to our generally good communication. He expresses sadness and frustration at my doubt and lack of devotion. So I try to be devoted and show it. It's somewhat of a cycle.

 

Generally we are okay. But I still have this gnawing, gut-wrenching suspicion we are wrong together.

[Fearful Wife]

TIY, I read your thread. It sounds as though you and your wife always had a physical connection, despite the emotional pitfalls. I don't think my H and I have that.

[guttedandconfused]

Fearful wife - first off thanks for all your posts and thanks to eveyone else for your insightful replies. I dont know if I am replying so much as unloading because I have been following the thread and and have found it incredibly helpful and similar to my own situation.

 

H and I have been married for 10 years. Love him dearly. I am 35, turning 36 soon so any decision on kids on my part needs to be a snappish one, my clock is ticking. He has always wanted kids but I always told him I didnt until a couple of week ago. I have been lying to myself bc I didnt think he was ready to have kids, we werent ready to have kids for various reasons, mainly his inability to control his anger. I only need one kid at a time.

 

Decided in Feb that I was no longer in love with him and started to pull back - built my own support network just like you did, tried to build one for him so it wouldnt be so much pain when I finally left. I moved out thinking I was doing the right thing. Didnt realise until I read this post just how negative I had been but to be honest I felt (like one of your relies mentioned) like I was carrying this whole relationship and just didnt have the energy for it any longer.

 

Moved out but then decided he had dealt with some of his issues and moved back. A couple of weeks ago, told him that I always wanted to have kids but was lying to myself to protect myself about how strongly I felt about having kids, how disappointed I was he wasnt dealing with his anger issues when I pointed out so many times that it was a major issue in my decision to have kids or not. He took my "lie" to him to be a major slight and now feels he no longer trusts me and has decided to disengage from our marriage. Suggested I do the same.

 

He now also tells me he is too old to have kids - he had two from a previous marriage so its not a big deal to him - but I am left with the decision that if I want kids I have to move on to another relationship.

 

We have alot of the same issues as you but in reverse - he and I dont see eye to eye on sex and I feel like I dont satisfy him. If I am honest I feel completely inadequete - I sometimes feel he wants a hooker who cooks and cleans, not a wife. when I try to tell him this (not in the same words) he gets defensive and angry. I cant win! He now tells me he would have kids but it comes across as a huge sacrifice of the rest of his life rather than something he really wants to do.

 

Having kids will only put more pressure on us and makes me think if I dont feel I can satisfy him now how can I do it if we have kids? If its a sacrifice rather than something he wants we will just end up split anyway.

 

I have read the marriagebuilders site, left it open on my pc and he read part of it as well, but I still dont feel like he gets me. He doesnt understand my thought process. I dont expect him to be a mind reader and I get the whole importance of honest communication but isnt it possible that two people can reach a crossroads from which there is no return? Its incredibly sad and I am sure you feel incredibly sad to be at this point, and indeed incredibly sad to have been in the situation where you felt you had to go and build a support network and prepare to leave - I found that whole thing incredibly disappointing.

 

So many people on here have pointed out ways to make it better but will it ever really improve even with the suggestions that have been made? Is my cynicism unwelcome? Isnt it possible that even if we love someone dearly we are better off someplace else?

 

anyone else have any thoughts or guidance on this? Any help offered would be much appreciated. I dont know which way is up at the minute. I am starting counselling on monday to try and get through some of my issues but I really dont know which way to turn.

[BlindleadingtheBlind]

Dear Fearful and Gutted,

 

Wow, I have to say that I am really surprised at the commonalities in our experience. And Gutted -- it is great to have your perspective on someone who tried separation and then reconciliation.

 

One of the things I'm struggling with right now is that I recognize that my marriage problems don't exist in isolation. That there are other factors, mainly my relationship with my family, that are exacerbating this situation. Basically, I don't trust myself to make the right decision and find myself going back and forth. There just isn't a clear-cut negative and positive. It all feels really gray and murky.

 

I'm pretty certain (after IC) that I started dating my husband at an early age as a way to shield myself from an anxious and overbearing mother. Knowing this, I recognize that a lot of my anxieties regarding my relationship with my H are exacerbated by me taking on the role of "mothering" him, which to me, means worrying about him and his career. When we first got married, I felt like I was choosing someone who was supportive and stable, and I felt very safe. But as time went on, and I watched him fall into depression, I felt so afraid and betrayed by him.

 

The thing is, my H and I do talk about everything. Everything I have posted here is something we have discussed. He is not defensive (or tries hard not to be) and I try not to convey how I'm feeling in a negative way. We are very protective of both ourselves and one another. We don't argue, and throughout this process we have been open with one another about our disappointments, unmet expectations, etc.

 

And I know that my H did not FORCE me into the mothering role. It was a role I adopted and felt comfortable in.

 

But that is what makes this so hard. On its face, nothing is truly WRONG in our relationship. We get along well. We laugh together and share a long history. But deep down, I feel completely void of love for him. That bank just feels empty. And I just don't know if I have it in me to try again.

 

Because we've talked about how we're locked in this cycle, where there's a big explosion, we talk and talk, and then eventually cycle back into our old comfortable ways. And I hate that it has to come to this point every time before he pays attention and realizes things are not right between us.

 

I feel like I have gotten him to the point now where he is financially stable and can have a good life. And part of me wonders if I stuck around this long to see him to this point, so that I wouldn't feel guilty about leaving. But that in the back of my head, I always knew I was going to leave.

 

What I struggle with is this: EVERYONE has ups and downs in life. He has loved me for who I am. Why can't I love him for better or worse?

 

My therapist has asked me to take things slowly, and to wait at least three or four months before making any decisions. But my H said last night that he wishes I would just decide. And to that I responded, why isn't this a decision we are making together?

 

I don't know. This is all so confusing. But it helps to know you are out there.

[TrustInYourself]

TIY, I read your thread. It sounds as though you and your wife always had a physical connection, despite the emotional pitfalls. I don't think my H and I have that.

 

Hmm, perhaps. I can tell you prior to her moving out, sex added to her depression. She felt obligated to me. I am an extremely physical, sexual, outgoing person. She's somewhat the opposite, more conservative and more reliable. I'm the firebrand, the wild guy, the popular, unconvential, loud mouth, attention whore type. We work in some ways, and not in others.

 

Personally, I'm not opposed to separations, if they are used as a means to work things out. A break, some time off, whatever. But typically, they are used to find others to replace the ones we married. That's wrong, IMO. Some also use it as a tool to gently ease their spouses into divorce. That's also pretty crappy, if you ask me.

 

I guess it depends on the situation. I know prior to our separation, I had a hard time remembering what made my wife so special to me. When she was gone, I had a chance to remember and miss those traits in her that bring out the best in me. It reflected in our interactions when she was out of the house. I also made sure to correct my own issues. I no longer demanded sex, I just rolled with it and made her happy.

 

The results were crazy, intense sexual encounters. Kinda confusing if you ask me, because she still insisted emotions were not there.

 

Anyways, I'm off on a tangent here.

 

Talk is cheap. Actions that create consequence, create change and understanding. That is if your husband is up to it. Some men are, some aren't.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

[TrustInYourself]

Ugh. I'm going to be be brutally honest. Reading that stuff makes me like..want to gag.

[Mickle]

Having read through your posts, you know its over.

You are just trying to convince yourself to stay, for a moral responsible reason.

You are young enough to make a new start and meet some one you want to have children with.

Give up being an Historian, the past is dead your future awaits you, move out.

[guttedandconfused]

Mickle holy smokes just logged on to post a reply and if I could stop lying to myself I would know that is exactly how I feel. I have a huge lump in my throat I dont know why I am struggling because the truth is that is how I feel.

 

Anyway, I am going to post the reply anyway:

 

I just worte a huge great long reply and lost the whole thing. and it was a work of literary genius.

 

Anyway, it went something like this.

 

Trust - I am glad you used your time constructively to look at what you could change to improve the dynamic. My H has tried and taken some steps but now tells me he is sick of having his character attacked all the time and is just going back to being himself. While parts of himself are great, other parts are the reason I left in the first place. I want him to want to change on his own and to see and understand from my point of view why I feel the way I do. More than see from my point of view I want him just to understand how his actions impact how I feel.

 

I agree that separations can be used for constructive as well as destructive reasons. I used the time to look at myself and I am

not blameless in this whole thing. I didnt actively seek anyone else out as I felt doing that wasnt true to the reason I left.

 

However I am not the biggest advocate of reconciliation and the minute and I am strating to wish I had stuck two fingers up to the

whole thing. He kees throwing back in my face that I walked out on him. When in fact what I did was make sure I called everyday, at least

once and ended up most night back cooking him dinner as he was too depressed to eat and just didnt bother unless I was here to do it for him.

So maybe I am to blame - maybe I wasnt hard enough on him to evoke the change that I wanted from him. Maybe I took the role of mothering him too seriously

 

Blind - this leads me onto what I wanted to say to you. I had some IC before I left to get my head around whether I was doing the right thing.

my IC'er pointed out that I took too much responsiblity for his actions. I felt like I had to be his morality and conscience. And in taking on this

role I lost myself. Are you taking to much responsiblity for H's life? Part of me feels that I got married for a partnership. I shouldnt have to

take on this mothering role and be responsible for anyone else, hell I am big enough to be responsible for myself so why arent you? we took on this role willingly. But this is not what I signed up for.

 

And I sometimes feel I have given everything that was in me to this already - a whole lifetimes marriage in ten years. I think that comes from

dealing with the mental illness. I think vows should be further qualified on the whole sickness thing to differntiate between those illnesses

that can be cut out and eaily treated versus mental illness. turns out my husband is bipolar and its a difficult thing to live with. He is on

stabilisers now but the roller coaster to get to this point has been absolutely exhausting. My H has this for the rest of his life. Thats just the way it is. Depression is the same in some cases. As horrible as it is to think about turning your back on someone you love I dont think I have it in me to deal with what I have again.

 

I dont think we are emotional equals. He just seems to wind me up at the minute and worst of all I think he is doing it for sport. But he isnt really doing anything wrong, just nothing right.I honestly feel like we are on separate paths and that I have become used to just going along.

Hmmm. Lots to think about and it just doesnt get any easier at the minute. My head is telling me to just go again and my heart has stopped feeling anything.

 

Fearful, dont know how any of this is supposed to help you but maybe somewhere in my rambling you see something that makes you think of something in a new light.

[guttedandconfused]

Sorry about the formatting!

[BlindleadingtheBlind]

Mickle, when I first read your post, my reaction was that you were probably right. But this afternoon, a book I ordered on Amazon arrived and I have been totally engrossed.

 

I thought I had read every self-help book out there to better understand my actions and reactions to my marriage. But this one has given me many moments of self-recognition and I want to recommend it: The Ways We Love: A Developmental Approach to Treating Couples by Sheila Sharpe.

 

It outlines "Patterns of Connection" and "Patterns of Separation." I'm only in the first half of the book, but it has already made me understand better how I have been an active contributor to the demise of my relationship.

 

I guess the light is finally dawning that I keep actively pointing the finger at my husband's depression, when I have been unwilling to recognize at some level that I too felt depressed and needy at the beginning of our relationship. I clung to him when my parents moved out of the country and depended on him for EVERYTHING. He took on the role of the caretaker back then, driving me everywhere, helping me move, etc. And he did so in an emotionally-distant father-figure way, which I now see I needed at the time.

 

The reason we're at this place right now, is that in some ways we just keep passing back and forth the baton of dependency. And now here we are, at rock bottom, resentful of one another and angry.

 

I haven't gotten to the part in the book of how to fix these feelings, but I feel hopeful that I will have learned some new insights by the end.

 

So...the journey continues.