44, married and a pickup artist

[lonelyandfrustrated]

Well lets take a poll:

 

Women, how many of you here would be ok with a change in your husband if your husband was out spending all of his attention on other women and/or cheating?

 

I would be disgusted.

[Woggle]

Of course women here won't admit it but how many of them are bored with their faithful husband?

[Dexter Morgan]

Of course women here won't admit it but how many of them are bored with their faithful husband?

 

Thats what usually happens in marriage. Boredom sets in. doesn't mean a marriage can't be good, but thats what happens after being with the same person for so many years. Not saying they don't enjoy their spouses, don't love them, and don't have the hots for them, but it definitely cools down.

 

But your question above misses the point. She was bored with her husband, wanted a change. And the change is desired, but not the method that brought about the change.

 

Its like if a wife of mine said she is tired of eating Hamburger Helper all the time and wants steak every night for a week. She'd prefer me go out and buy it. Not go out and become a shoplifter.

[NewKatalyst]

Just to be clear ..I was confronted with the reality of a sexless and passionless marriage. I tried the usual paths that I hoped would lead to a resolution. And as many of those in my situation nothing seemed to work.

 

That flair my wife talked about .. I couldn't figure out what it was and she couldn't verbalize it. When I asked her what it was, she would click her tongue, snap her fingers in thought, but could say nothing. I thought it was related to hairstyle or clothing or something.

 

It's only in hindsight and by accident that I figured out what she meant by flair. I also realized that when I was helping around the house more, taking her to nice places more, and trying to be more accomodating, it not only did not work, but I think it made me even less attractive in her eyes. Nagging her, and having talks with her probably risked getting her disgusted by me completely.

 

What I learned came in hindsight. It wasn't planned. I didn't go out and say "I'll cheat on my wife so I can get some flair. I cheated on my wife so I could get some human interaction between the sheets.

 

I'm not saying cheating is recommendable nor a good thing. All I'm saying to the men here that have been in these sexless marriages to stop with the counseling sessions, stop with the dreaded talk and stop putting an apron on to please her. It won't work unless you've been an ogre beforehand. In all likelyhood you'll get to the friend zone with your own wife.

 

For whatever reason, good or bad, my wife became more attracted to me and wanted me for sex once I became better at flirting with other women. Should I have stopped there? Possibly. But that is another issue.</p>

[Dexter Morgan]

GREAT analogy!!!

 

Thanks. On a side note, and a quick little threadjack, we may not see eye to eye on politics, but I love ya in the relationship forums!

[Dexter Morgan]

I'm not saying cheating is recommendable nor a good thing. All I'm saying to the men here that have been in these sexless marriages to stop with the counseling sessions, stop with the dreaded talk and stop putting an apron on to please her.

 

 

Hmmm, must be something else, cuz I had dinner all ready for her one night after work and got my eyeballs $#%$#% out that night!

 

 

It won't work unless you've been an ogre beforehand.

 

Ok. So is this a confession? Maybe this was the problem?

 

Because by your own logic, if you did those things and it didn't work, you must have been an ogre? Your words, not mine.

[jmargel]

NK,

 

You didn't seem to read my last post.

 

For whatever reason, good or bad, my wife became more attracted to me and wanted me for sex once I became better at flirting with other women.

 

Wrong. Your wife knows nothing about your flirting, about your cheating. Her attraction to you now has nothing to do with what you are doing with other women. It might seem like it does, but it doesn't.

 

It sounds like you are trying to manipulate your wife into having an interest in you. Though you are doing it in a very hurtful way.

 

You wife DESERVES honesty, the truth and SAFE health. You are putting yourself and your wife's health at risk. Your children could end up one day without parents (due to Aids). Is it really worth that risk?

[NewKatalyst]

Hmmm, must be something else, cuz I had dinner all ready for her one night after work and got my eyeballs $#%$#% out that night!

 

 

 

 

Ok. So is this a confession? Maybe this was the problem?

 

Because by your own logic, if you did those things and it didn't work, you must have been an ogre? Your words, not mine.

 

Read it again

[Owl]

Just to be clear ..I was confronted with the reality of a sexless and passionless marriage. I tried the usual paths that I hoped would lead to a resolution. And as many of those in my situation nothing seemed to work.

 

That flair my wife talked about .. I couldn't figure out what it was and she couldn't verbalize it. When I asked her what it was, she would click her tongue, snap her fingers in thought, but could say nothing. I thought it was related to hairstyle or clothing or something.

 

It's only in hindsight and by accident that I figured out what she meant by flair. I also realized that when I was helping around the house more, taking her to nice places more, and trying to be more accomodating, it not only did not work, but I think it made me even less attractive in her eyes. Nagging her, and having talks with her probably risked getting her disgusted by me completely.

 

What I learned came in hindsight. It wasn't planned. I didn't go out and say "I'll cheat on my wife so I can get some flair. I cheated on my wife so I could get some human interaction between the sheets.

 

I'm not saying cheating is recommendable nor a good thing. All I'm saying to the men here that have been in these sexless marriages to stop with the counseling sessions, stop with the dreaded talk and stop putting an apron on to please her. It won't work unless you've been an ogre beforehand. In all likelyhood you'll get to the friend zone with your own wife.

 

For whatever reason, good or bad, my wife became more attracted to me and wanted me for sex once I became better at flirting with other women. Should I have stopped there? Possibly. But that is another issue.</p>

 

Point blank question...how do you think she'd feel in knowing that the source of these wonderful changes is all wrapped in the fact that you flirted and eventually cheated on her to get those skills?

 

You think she'd appreciate your efforts if she knew?

 

Do you HONESTLY think that most people in a similar situation to what you were in would be likely to STOP at just enough flirting to 'get that flair'?

 

Do you REALLY think that what you're suggesting is a "fix" to the situation, or do you think its more likely to lead to the same kind of sitaution you're in now?

[redfathom]

I was confronted with the reality of a sexless and passionless marriage.

 

I have to preface my post by saying I haven't read every post on this thread. My question, was your marriage sexless or not? Because you said you were confronted...which doesn't mean you were actually in a sexless marriage.

 

Post #86 was very dead on. Your wife doesn't know with what pains (to her) you have become the way she now sees you. I am sure if she had a choice, which you never gave her, she would not chose you to become the man she now admires in the way you did it.

 

Do you think if your wife would act like you do, she would have more "flair" and you would find her more attractive? But you don't want that...

 

You don't think your wife wants you more because she see less of you?

[JamesM]

NK,

Your wife knows nothing about your flirting, about your cheating. Her attraction to you now has nothing to do with what you are doing with other women. It might seem like it does, but it doesn't.

 

 

I have already stated my position on what NK is doing. I think it is wrong and inadvisable....BUT.....

 

Here is where we can learn something. I did, and put it to use.

 

 

When I read this thread last week, I can say that I was shocked to think that a guy would imagine cheating would make his marriage better. Truthfully, I question if that is his motive or if it is a revenge motive. Either way as I usually do, some threads make me think about myself.

 

So I wondered....does flirting with a woman actually help the self confidence in a good way? Making women laugh and feel that I am noticing them do anything for them? Does it do anything for me? Does it then make one more confident with the wife for instance? It has been years since I really flirted...or shall we say teased with a woman, but I thought hey, let us see what happens.

 

Now understand...the flirting that I am thinking of is not necessarily sexual flirting, but rather it is friendly flirting that says "You are special and noticed." This does not mean that it says, "Strip and get into bed with me." This is too far IMO.

 

While I was at the store picking up dog food, I "tried my skills" on the clerks there. One was prettier than the other....both rather young. I was astonished that the kidding around and almost flirting did change their attitude towards me. I could tell it made them feel good. Yes, they did look at me differently. And it gave me that sense of "Hey maybe I am not dead after all."

 

Today, I went through the McD's drive-thru and when she asked for the payment as I gave it to her, I looked at her eyes and thought, "She has pretty eyes." Funny thing is..as I drove up she said with a bored tone, "$2.85." Normally, I would hardly look at the person and with the same bored attitude give over the money.

 

Today I thought maybe I should be different. So when she said the amount, I said, "Here it is," and instead of looking down as I handed her the money, I looked at her eyes as I was thinking how pretty they were. It was interesting because my expression must have said something to her. Her eyes kinda jumped to mine with a certain look, and it seemed that she liked what she saw. (I have no clue what she saw. ). Then she put my money in the register. She came back and handed me the change and the receipt, but this time instead of looking at the money, her eyes were looking at my eyes, and they stayed looking at them until the transaction was over. I never said another word, but I looked at her with that same interest which I felt (and I think that was the key). Her eyes said something, too. (Now if I remember how to translate those looks again. ).

 

Anyhow, my point is...twice I know I made these women feel special. I am not saying that they were ready to jump into bed with me, nor did I want that. What I am saying is that these interactions made them feel special, and it gave me that confidence of knowing that I do have the "power" to do that.

 

The question is....would these kind of interactions make me a better husband? Will they give me more confidence with my wife, or will I revert back to my normal self with her?

 

NK got me thinking but in a slightly different direction. Now to do some research.

[Dexter Morgan]

Read it again

 

I did

 

"stop putting an apron on to please her. It won't work unless you've been an ogre beforehand."

[JamesM]

You have a good point, James. I have to say, though, that I've always been how you described here. When I'm walking down the sidewalk, I smile and say hi when I pass a stranger.

 

Actually, I do that, too, quite often. Having worked with people most of my life and in retail situations, I think of people with a different attitude most often. Many people call me "kind."

 

These interactions I described were a little more than that. I am not saying that I am some casanova or don juan...far from it. What I am saying is that showing someone that they are considered attractive or even sexy through actions or words....does this build the confidence of the ones receiving it? Does it build the ones giving it? Is it good?

 

(Time for a new thread. )

[NoIDidn't]

NK got me thinking but in a slightly different direction. Now to do some research.

 

What kind of research? LOL.

 

Seriously, while I disagree with his methods, I agree that the change has re-attracted his W.

 

Thing is, I've said the same thing to my H. But he'd have a divorce in his future if he did what NK is doing and I found out about it. That's just disgusting. The only thing I like with that many miles on it, is a car.

 

There are many other ways to accomplish what NK did with his wife. He just needed to try something new and non-destructive. But what he is doing right now is likely to end his marriage and all the fake confidence that he gained with it.

 

Can we say - midlife crisis?

[NoIDidn't]

(Time for a new thread. )

 

I'm game. Oh, the stories I could tell. LOL

[Reggie]

You people can knock him but his wife has clearly rewarded this behavior. It worls for him and a man will do what brings success.

 

This is inaccurate. Clearly, she cannot reward him for behavior that she knows nothing about.

It may ne that things have improved forhim, perhaps temporarily,. But, it is not the result of his wife rewarding him as she is oblivious to the cheating, for now.

[JamesM]

 

I get labeled "sexy" all the time, and it has nothing to do with the way I dress but more the way I carry myself.

 

I think you are prettty sexy when you get all hot and bothered about politics!

 

Too bad the elections are over. Now I have to wait four more years to see that side of you.

 

Anyhow back to topic.....

 

do you see a man that flirts as more attractive?

[NewKatalyst]

And with that question, the OP dissolves. Funny.

 

Hey, remember that I'm a slightly different time zone .. ! The answer is no, I won't be stopping as of yet. My forays into Switzerland will end in April. I figure that I'll stop by then.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I'm addicted to what I'm doing, I'm a bastard for doing it and that I may get caught and get my just desserts. All I've been saying is that .. well no point in repeating myself. I think a few of you get it.

[redfathom]

Here is an analogy...

 

What if you went out to buy a very expensive name brand jacket made by the designer themselves. Later you find out that jacket was made my young children forced into labor who were beaten. The designer you thought had made it mearly stuck their label on it...

 

Would you wear the jacket simply because it still had the label on it...

[NewKatalyst]

I have already stated my position on what NK is doing. I think it is wrong and inadvisable....BUT.....

 

Here is where we can learn something. I did, and put it to use.

 

 

When I read this thread last week, I can say that I was shocked to think that a guy would imagine cheating would make his marriage better. Truthfully, I question if that is his motive or if it is a revenge motive. Either way as I usually do, some threads make me think about myself.

 

So I wondered....does flirting with a woman actually help the self confidence in a good way? Making women laugh and feel that I am noticing them do anything for them? Does it do anything for me? Does it then make one more confident with the wife for instance? It has been years since I really flirted...or shall we say teased with a woman, but I thought hey, let us see what happens.

 

Now understand...the flirting that I am thinking of is not necessarily sexual flirting, but rather it is friendly flirting that says "You are special and noticed." This does not mean that it says, "Strip and get into bed with me." This is too far IMO.

 

While I was at the store picking up dog food, I "tried my skills" on the clerks there. One was prettier than the other....both rather young. I was astonished that the kidding around and almost flirting did change their attitude towards me. I could tell it made them feel good. Yes, they did look at me differently. And it gave me that sense of "Hey maybe I am not dead after all."

 

Today, I went through the McD's drive-thru and when she asked for the payment as I gave it to her, I looked at her eyes and thought, "She has pretty eyes." Funny thing is..as I drove up she said with a bored tone, "$2.85." Normally, I would hardly look at the person and with the same bored attitude give over the money.

 

Today I thought maybe I should be different. So when she said the amount, I said, "Here it is," and instead of looking down as I handed her the money, I looked at her eyes as I was thinking how pretty they were. It was interesting because my expression must have said something to her. Her eyes kinda jumped to mine with a certain look, and it seemed that she liked what she saw. (I have no clue what she saw. ). Then she put my money in the register. She came back and handed me the change and the receipt, but this time instead of looking at the money, her eyes were looking at my eyes, and they stayed looking at them until the transaction was over. I never said another word, but I looked at her with that same interest which I felt (and I think that was the key). Her eyes said something, too. (Now if I remember how to translate those looks again. ).

 

Anyhow, my point is...twice I know I made these women feel special. I am not saying that they were ready to jump into bed with me, nor did I want that. What I am saying is that these interactions made them feel special, and it gave me that confidence of knowing that I do have the "power" to do that.

 

The question is....would these kind of interactions make me a better husband? Will they give me more confidence with my wife, or will I revert back to my normal self with her?

 

NK got me thinking but in a slightly different direction. Now to do some research.

 

Good for you, James. I mean that. You're where I was a short while ago. I took it a wee bit further and got them interested. But either way, it's waking up the part of you that knows how to make you noticed by the opposite sex.

 

I don't know exactly what gives you that elusive flair that my wife wanted from me. Maybe some of it comes from you knowing in a part of your brain that you *could* get it elsewhere if you wanted to, even if you don't. Maybe that makes you less likely to seem needy when your wife turns you down yet again. Maybe it's because your wife notices that other women look at you differently and thus makes her want you more. I'm not sure what it s exactly. I'm sure the reasons are complex, but there is absolutely no denying that the difference is like night and day.

[RecordProducer]

You people can knock him but his wife has clearly rewarded this behavior. It worls for him and a man will do what brings success.

'Zacly!

 

She asked for a change. She didn't ask for him to seek attention from other women. She didn't ask him to be an affair waiting to happen.

I meant she was ASKING FOR TROUBLE when she said what she said. You don't just friggin' tell your spouse "You're a bore and I don't want to screw you" and get away with it! C'mon, peeps!

 

Whats wrong with asking for change? Isn't that what we keep hearing here at good old LS? That communication is the key and both spouses need to let their feelings and desires be known?

Communication has proven to be bullkrap. It brings "operation successful, patient dead" results. NK said he tried to be super-sweet and the effect was even worse. His wife never expressed herself verbally as to what she wanted, but actions show louder than words what turned her on.

 

No, she is rewarding his change. She isn't rewarding him interacting inappropriately with other women.

This is like saying "I like how rich guys interact; I don't like their money." If it weren't for the money and power, they wouldn't have acted with such self-confidence. The result is: money -> confidence -> sex appeal.

 

She likes whatever brought the change. When a woman meets an irresistible guy in a bar and wants to go out with him, she doesn't know how many women he's had; she only knows she is attracted to him. Wake up; self-confidence and charm don't come from helping the wife in the kitchen. Women want men in every sense of the word, and a man is at his best when other women make him feel like a man. I feel most like a woman when guys drool over me and chase me. But I am a young and attractive woman. And yet, my husband (who's much older than I am) doesn't want me.

 

If a person can do something to get the attention they need, they'll do it. Especially when put down by their spouse. She discarded him as unattractive; he tried everything to make himself attractive and nothing worked. What was he supposed to do? Accept the "fact" that he was boring? Or prove himself that he was still very sexy? What would anyone of you do?

 

Of course women here won't admit it but how many of them are bored with their faithful husband?

Faithful is OK, but "too nice" is boring, predictable, and unchallenging. I wouldn't settle for either extreme, but if I had to choose, I'd pick the "bad boy" over the "nice guy." (I'd love to meet NK is person, I bet he'd never look at another woman again )

 

 

Thats what usually happens in marriage. Boredom sets in. doesn't mean a marriage can't be good, but thats what happens after being with the same person for so many years. Not saying they don't enjoy their spouses, don't love them, and don't have the hots for them, but it definitely cools down.

Well, good was not good enough for this woman. She refused to have sex with her husband unless he brought some flair at home.

 

But your question above misses the point. She was bored with her husband, wanted a change. And the change is desired, but not the method that brought about the change.

It's like saying "It's good that you graduated from med school with all A's, but you shouldn't be so ambitious." Internal traits (and changes) bring changes in external actions - and vice versa: external accomplishments alter our internal structure. You don't become sexy by reading a book "How to become sexy." You don't become wise if you haven't made many mistakes and learned from them. Good things in life don't always come from the right sources. Some people were born gorgeous and grew up in healthy, wealthy families. Some people didn't have all the advantages to work with - they had to create them.

 

You wife DESERVES honesty, the truth and SAFE health.

You don't know what his wife deserves. As far as I'm concerned, she's a woman who wanted wild sex, but not with her husband. We don't know what she did about her needs.

 

You are putting yourself and your wife's health at risk. Your children could end up one day without parents (due to Aids). Is it really worth that risk?

As much as I agree and this is a valid point - it's still OFF TOPIC. This is a lesson in psychology, not healthy living.

 

There are many other ways to accomplish what NK did with his wife.

Really? State one, please. But, a legit one.

 

But what he is doing right now is likely to end his marriage and all the fake confidence that he gained with it.

Why fake? His feelings are very real. If anything, his wife instilled a fake judgment in his psyche that he had no flair, and we have evidence that he is, in fact, very attractive. He only had to go out and find out the truth. He didn't develop sex appeal because women slept with him - they slept with him because he always had the sex appeal. Why is his wife's opinion true and the other women's fake?

 

Thing is, if he stops sleeping with other women, if he goes back his his old, nice-guy self, his wife likely won't find him attractive anymore.

[redfathom]

I'd love to meet NK is person, I bet he'd never look at another woman again

 

Brraaahhahahahahaha. Please!

[carhill]

OP, does your wife's opinion of you and/or desire for you still matter to you? To me, it sounds like it does. If you were completely detached, I don't think it would. I know this from personal experience. I hope you find your path

[NewKatalyst]

OP, does your wife's opinion of you and/or desire for you still matter to you? To me, it sounds like it does. If you were completely detached, I don't think it would. I know this from personal experience. I hope you find your path

 

Well, yes it does. But not THAT much. I think that's what keeps things hot with us right now. She turns me down, and she can see I don't so much as blink because I know that I could walk outside and in a couple of hours or less have someone who does want to date me or even sleep with me.

 

She doesn't want to sleep with me .. I see it as her loss. Not mine. I'm not detatched because I do very much enjoy it when she expresses her desire for me.

[redfathom]

You could have that reaction with out actually sleeping with someone. You don't actually have to prove (even if just to yourself) that you can sleep with other people.

 

It doesn't sound like you have much more regard for her then you do these other woman. If she or they slept with you it wouldn't matter much. It seems like you just want to prove a point more then anything.

 

You said her opinion or desire for you doesn't even matter to you that much. I think it would matter to you as much as a stranger not wanting to sleep with you.

 

Do you enjoy her epxression of deisre to you more or the same as these other woman?