44, married and a pickup artist

[elaina]

That's really sad. I'm sorry, I don't mean to judge, but it is because it seems you are very angry and bitter over your marriage and so you try to "fill the void" and rationalize and justify it.

 

Why do you feel the need to rationalize and justify it please? Is it because you know it is wrong?

 

Why do you not get a divorce? Honesty and being trustworthy is very important. Do you not think so? Do you like people to be honest and trustworthy to you?

 

If you want to live that life, that is your decision, but you are lying to your wife. To me, that is the worst thing... if for example my husband was not happy with me, and didn't tolerate my faults (I do not have a big temper but I do get emotional and sensitive easy... my faults lol) then I would greatly appreciate him coming to me and telling me,

 

"Look, I want to sleep with other women. So you can either make the decision to stay married to me in spite of this or divorce me."

 

Do you see what I mean pleas? Yeah that would hurt like hell but I respect that, because he would be honest and giving me the right to know who he truly is.

 

More than likely I would divorce him, but I would greatly respect his telling me the truth and allowing me to make a decision based on the truth.

 

Your wife deserves that same respect. Yes it will hurt her, but at least you are being honest enough to show her who you are. Maybe she will even accept you for who you are. There are women (very few but they exist) who accept being married to men who have sex with other women. Some hide their hurt, others have sex with other men, and others are just wives who think that is their lot in the world and throw their passion into a hobby like sewing or whatever or taking care of their kids.

 

Your wife should have the respect from you to be told the facts so she can make her choice. Don't you think?

[RecordProducer]

RP, I disagree re the desire for approval. He did not come out and say it. But, there was really no need to come here at all if he felt justified( the altruistic desire to help others in like situations-doubtful).

I read between the lines, not always accurately. But, I feel there was the need to get approval to bolster his justifications. Just speculation, not susceptible to being proven. But, that is my take.

As for being sweet and nice as a turn-on, we are all wired so differently, one cannot make generalizations in this area. It all goes back to childhood, maybe further. There's no telling what will do it for someone. A lid for every pot, thank God.

OK. I understand what you're saying. I don't necessarily disagree.

 

I actually agree with Elaina, the way she put it:

"Look, I want to sleep with other women. So you can either make the decision to stay married to me in spite of this or divorce me."

 

Do you see what I mean pleas? Yeah that would hurt like hell but I respect that, because he would be honest and giving me the right to know who he truly is.

 

More than likely I would divorce him, but I would greatly respect his telling me the truth and allowing me to make a decision based on the truth.

[Dexter Morgan]

I did not reward my ex for cheating on me

 

Not talking about rewarding her for cheating on you. YOU said that this wife didn't reward him for being someone that IS faithful.

 

So someone could say the same principle could be applied to your situation. That maybe you didn't treat your wife in a certain way, therefore, she got the attention elsewhere. Again, I think that is a bulls##t way to look at it, but its the same principle.

 

 

 

I also never rejected my ex and called her boring during the short time she was an honest and faithful women. If my ex was an honest and faithful woman all the time we would probably still be happily married

 

I understand what you are saying, and don't take it wrong. I believe you. Never would I suggest that you pushed her to do what she did.

 

But there would be people out there that would say, and you know they have said it, that you had to do something to make her stray. Again, its the same principle. Blaming the cheatee.

[Dexter Morgan]

Cheaters aren't satisfied with what they have at home. Ever. A woman could wear frilly garters to bed every night, cook like a French chef, keep the house like Martha Stewart; and a man can look like Pierce Brosnan, work like a hound, make love like Tarzan in the wild woods, and massage her feet with lavender oil every night. Over time, a cheater will find room to excuse cheating. Either it's in you to do that or it isn't.

 

This hits the nail on the head. But you know too many people won't buy that line of thinking at this site. Too many here think that there had to be something that the BS did to cause the WS to stray.

 

They won't buy the fact that there are people out there that could bust their humps being a good husband or wife, keep the home fires lit, but their spouses still want some strange no matter how good they have it at home.

[Dexter Morgan]

I know a cheater who was very satisfied with his wife, even in the sack. He was just a dog and wanted everything that was female and walked on two legs.

 

That was the whole point. If they were satisfied, they wouldn't cheat.

 

They aren't satisfied screwing just one person.

[Reggie]

That was the whole point. If they were satisfied, they wouldn't cheat.

 

They aren't satisfied screwing just one person.

 

Folks like this have a huge sense of entitlement. It's the hallmark of the disordred, especially the NPD'swho are well represented among cheaters.

It's weird. These folks genuinely believe that they operate under a different set of rules, and that the peons are not entitled to the same access to things that bring pleasure.

When you call them on this crap, they are genuinely bewildered that you do not subscribe to the same belief about their entitlement. This genuine bewilderment shows just how distorted their reality is and it is like arguing with a wall. They just do not accept the basic premise that they are not better than other people. So, with that as their basic premise, their thinking is logical.

When I was home every night taking care of the kids. while my wife was out prowling, I told her this was neither fair or acceptable. She was genuinely perplexed. She said, "of course I need more time out then you. I have more friends than you." She was a magna cum laude law school graduate, so she had the candlepower to see how absurd this was. But, with her belief system firmly in place, that she naturally deserved more of everything, there was no arguing with her.

Same with 44. He believes he is entitled to cheat. He is better than his wife. Who could possibly object?

[Scrivdog]

Listen, I read this whole thread and he never said he thought cheating was the answer - in fact, he recommends against it, contrary to what the bedwetting brigade here is whining about.

 

What he did say, I think is that he got himself some *game* which his wife mistakenly called *flair*. And got this by flirting with the ladies enough so they wanted to jump his bones. He does the same with his wife and she also wants to jump his bones.

 

There's two lessons here:

 

1) Men, use the counselor, pressure your wife, and pout - and your wife will have sex - with the pool guy.

 

2) Women, don't feel like you need to have sex with your men or anything. I know you have more important things to attend to. Just remember that he'll have no trouble finding himself a willing partner to pick up your slack.

[Reggie]

Listen, I read this whole thread and he never said he thought cheating was the answer - in fact, he recommends against it, contrary to what the bedwetting brigade here is whining about.

 

What he did say, I think is that he got himself some *game* which his wife mistakenly called *flair*. And got this by flirting with the ladies enough so they wanted to jump his bones. He does the same with his wife and she also wants to jump his bones.

 

There's two lessons here:

 

1) Men, use the counselor, pressure your wife, and pout - and your wife will have sex - with the pool guy.

 

2) Women, don't feel like you need to have sex with your men or anything. I know you have more important things to attend to. Just remember that he'll have no trouble finding himself a willing partner to pick up your slack.

 

Again, how do you address the STD issue, then? Even adopting your absurd logic, how do you justify exposing another to STD's without consent?

[Scrivdog]

Again, how do you address the STD issue, then? Even adopting your absurd logic, how do you justify exposing another to STD's without consent?

 

 

How about just flirting like he suggested? Besides, you wear a rubber and you're waay less likely to give her and STD than if you took her out to a sushi restaurant.

[Owl]

Clearly NK was unable to keep it to "just flirting". I've known any number of other people who thought it was all "just flirting" until it ended up with someone cheating.

 

That's what makes his advice so ludicrous...

 

His recipe for marital improvement is...even in his own case...more likely to result in cheating than in truly fixing what's wrong in his marriage.

 

As I said before...does anyone really think his wife will thank him if she found out HOW he gained this wonderful new confidance???

 

I think not.

 

Turn it the other way...say your wife is boring in bed. Suddenly, she turns into a rampaging tigress...would you be happy to find out she gained those "skilz" with your next door neighbor?

[Kasan]

How about just flirting like he suggested? Besides, you wear a rubber and you're waay less likely to give her and STD than if you took her out to a sushi restaurant.

 

Sorry to threadjack, but I'm curious how your situation ended up Scrivdog.

[Reggie]

How about just flirting like he suggested? Besides, you wear a rubber and you're waay less likely to give her and STD than if you took her out to a sushi restaurant.

 

Guy's not just flirting. I have not given much thought to the "just flirting " thing, as it holds no interest for me. He's had multiple ONS.

I agree condums LESSEN the risk. But, surely, you are aware there is still a significant risk, especially with certain specific diseases.( I know, "don't call me Shirley.)

I'll look into the sushi risks. Maybe a tongue condum would work.

[Reggie]

Heh heh. "...hot and bothered..."

 

It depends on what you mean when you say "flirts." My guy is a terrible flirt, but it has nothing to do with him making women think he'd have sex with them. He's incredibly charming - to everyone. It's part of what I find desirable about him. HOWEVER, if he were to flirt i.e. looking to skank around, I would find him incredibly disgusting. I am, after all, a woman - not some stupid little teenager.

 

And, we all think you are super sexy, too, James, you big macho , you.

[Dexter Morgan]

Listen, I read this whole thread and he never said he thought cheating was the answer - in fact, he recommends against it, contrary to what the bedwetting brigade here is whining about.

 

He did say that he thinks he may end up cheating. Post #17

 

So no bedwetting, going by what he himself said.

[Woggle]

Not talking about rewarding her for cheating on you. YOU said that this wife didn't reward him for being someone that IS faithful.

 

So someone could say the same principle could be applied to your situation. That maybe you didn't treat your wife in a certain way, therefore, she got the attention elsewhere. Again, I think that is a bulls##t way to look at it, but its the same principle.

 

 

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying, and don't take it wrong. I believe you. Never would I suggest that you pushed her to do what she did.

 

But there would be people out there that would say, and you know they have said it, that you had to do something to make her stray. Again, its the same principle. Blaming the cheatee.

 

I get what you are saying but unlike the OP's situation I never rewarded my ex for her cheating. From what he says his wife has actually become more attracted to him after his cheating and as wrong as that may be she is rewarding it and because of his straying he want from being on the verge of having a walkaway wife to having a wife that gets hot off of him. If it were me I would have just left her because if I have to compromise my character in order to make my wife love me I wouldn't want her anyway. That being said some men are not strong enough to do that and right now this behavior is benefiting him.

[NoIDidn't]

Listen, I read this whole thread and he never said he thought cheating was the answer - in fact, he recommends against it, contrary to what the bedwetting brigade here is whining about.

 

What he did say, I think is that he got himself some *game* which his wife mistakenly called *flair*. And got this by flirting with the ladies enough so they wanted to jump his bones. He does the same with his wife and she also wants to jump his bones.

 

There's two lessons here:

 

1) Men, use the counselor, pressure your wife, and pout - and your wife will have sex - with the pool guy.

 

2) Women, don't feel like you need to have sex with your men or anything. I know you have more important things to attend to. Just remember that he'll have no trouble finding himself a willing partner to pick up your slack.

 

So scriv, how is your situation working out? Thought you'd left for good.

[RecordProducer]

Scrivdog, that was a very interesting post.

 

I actually knew a woman whose husband didn't want her, but they were together. Finally, she hooked up with somene else and didn't hide it from her husband. Then the husband decided that he was very much in love with her and made her break up with her new guy.

 

I think the best thing to do is to declare the marriage unofficially invalid: "Dear spouse, since you don't desire me, it means you don't love me, so we are no longer a couple. Therefore, we will live separate lives, but we can stay together for the kids and whatever..." (if you don't have kids, then "should" stay together becomes merely "want to" stay together)

 

This is the first punch on the nose, where the cocky spouse will possibly re-consider their interest. If they give it a "go ahead" then go ahead and hook up with someone, but don't hide it. Or even pretend you hooked up with someone. If they love you, this will make them mad and they'll hopefully come to their senses. If they don't love you, this might pique their interest or if it doesn't, then you're better off knowing that they are completely indifferent toward you.

 

You think you risk a divorce? I think they always know when they're guilty. They know they rejected you and they deserve to be hurt back. After all, as Woggle said, why compromise your integrity and cheat behind their backs? Just do it before their eyes. "You don't want the cake? Thank you!"

 

1. You will show them that there are people out there who find you attractive

2. You will show them that they can lose you if they reject you

3. You will show them that it doesn't bother you to take extreme measures to get what you want (someone who is able to make you happy and love you)

4. You will show them that they are not the last person in the world and you won't chase them

5. You will show them what they get when they become cocky and take you for granted - a reality check

6. You will get some fun on the side

7. You will suddenly become interesting and attractive

 

Of course, this is the last resort and it's (morally) applicable only after you've tried everything else and gave your best, communicated your needs, and finally warned them that they could lose you. Just my two cents.

 

Opinions?

[Reggie]

Scrivdog, that was a very interesting post.

 

I actually knew a woman whose husband didn't want her, but they were together. Finally, she hooked up with somene else and didn't hide it from her husband. Then the husband decided that he was very much in love with her and made her break up with her new guy.

 

I think the best thing to do is to declare the marriage unofficially invalid: "Dear spouse, since you don't desire me, it means you don't love me, so we are no longer a couple. Therefore, we will live separate lives, but we can stay together for the kids and whatever..." (if you don't have kids, then "should" stay together becomes merely "want to" stay together)

 

This is the first punch on the nose, where the cocky spouse will possibly re-consider their interest. If they give it a "go ahead" then go ahead and hook up with someone, but don't hide it. Or even pretend you hooked up with someone. If they love you, this will make them mad and they'll hopefully come to their senses. If they don't love you, this might pique their interest or if it doesn't, then you're better off knowing that they are completely indifferent toward you.

 

You think you risk a divorce? I think they always know when they're guilty. They know they rejected you and they deserve to be hurt back. After all, as Woggle said, why compromise your integrity and cheat behind their backs? Just do it before their eyes. "You don't want the cake? Thank you!"

 

1. You will show them that there are people out there who find you attractive

2. You will show them that they can lose you if they reject you

3. You will show them that it doesn't bother you to take extreme measures to get what you want (someone who is able to make you happy and love you)

4. You will show them that they are not the last person in the world and you won't chase them

5. You will show them what they get when they become cocky and take you for granted - a reality check

6. You will get some fun on the side

7. You will suddenly become interesting and attractive

 

Of course, this is the last resort and it's (morally) applicable only after you've tried everything else and gave your best, communicated your needs, and finally warned them that they could lose you. Just my two cents.

 

Opinions?

 

It's honest.Rarely, if ever, do WS's seem to be this forthright. But, it is above board and gives the spouse the option to leave with full knowledge. Had my wife done this, I'd have viewed it as my get out of jail free card. But, I would have respected her.

[RecordProducer]

It's honest.Rarely, if ever, do WS's seem to be this forthright. But, it is above board and gives the spouse the option to leave with full knowledge.

On the contrary; many spouses are willing to take the cheaters back and I am sure that very often, they know they screwed up IF they screwed up. The point is not only to give them an option to leave with full knowledge, but mostly to show them that you mean business. Who the hell is John or Jane to decide that you're going to live miserably, deprived from love, affection, and intimacy? These were part of the deal when they said "I do."

 

I also believe that separating works the same way, so if you have the chance, move out and start dating other peope. let them think you've moved on and see how they like it. But self-respect must be shown. And selfishness is part of self-respect. "You can do whatever you want to me and I'll still beg you and wait for you to come around" is the act of a doormat.

 

Had my wife done this, I'd have viewed it as my get out of jail free card. But, I would have respected her.

This advice only appies when you feel completely rejected by your spouse. Did you refuse to sleep with your wife? Did you deprive her from affection and romance? BTW, did she leave you for the OM? What reasons did she state for her infidelity?

[Reggie]

On the contrary; many spouses are willing to take the cheaters back and I am sure that very often, they know they screwed up IF they screwed up. The point is not only to give them an option to leave with full knowledge, but mostly to show them that you mean business. Who the hell is John or Jane to decide that you're going to live miserably, deprived from love, affection, and intimacy? These were part of the deal when they said "I do."

 

I also believe that separating works the same way, so if you have the chance, move out and start dating other peope. let them think you've moved on and see how they like it. But self-respect must be shown. And selfishness is part of self-respect. "You can do whatever you want to me and I'll still beg you and wait for you to come around" is the act of a doormat.

 

This advice only appies when you feel completely rejected by your spouse. Did you refuse to sleep with your wife? Did you deprive her from affection and romance? BTW, did she leave you for the OM? What reasons did she state for her infidelity?

 

Actually, RP, very few relationships survive infidelity. It is rare that a BS, after the initial panic abates, wants to continue in a relationship with a cheater. The stats bear this out.

As for my ex, trying to figure out the mind of a disordered person is futile. For years, she was verbally abusive, as well as constantly rejecting any type of intimacy. She insisted that our daughters,all three of them, sleep in our bed every night from the time they were born. She was incredibly cruel to my two sons from a previous marriage, one with Down syndrome and autism.

She is very good looking, almost on par with me:), but meaner than a rattlesnake.

She left to live with the OM, interstingly a former boyfriend who she had cheated on in highschool when she began sleeping with her soccer coach at 17. He lasted about 18 months begfore she kicked him out after she had depleted his financial resources.I know exactly what it is like to have your advances constantly rebuffed and to be made to feel unattractive.

I had many opportunities to cheat, but I am glad I did not.

My ex's family have been great to me through all this with her mom telling me frequently her daughter is a sociopath and a habitual liar.

I play golf professionally, and still hang with her brothers, uncles and dad and give them lessons. I am invited on family vacations with her parents and they have me and the girls over every Saturday for breakfast. They've given me her history and it includes two stints as an OW and assorted other travesties.

So, the affairs were a blessing. I actually met the OM twice and both times thanked him for taking her off my hands. Guy's dumber than a rock, by the way.

[RecordProducer]

Actually, RP, very few relationships survive infidelity. The stats bear this out.

Well, I don't think there could possibly be any statistics about this, since those who leave, tell the story; those who stay are too ashamed to tell.

 

She was incredibly cruel to my two sons from a previous marriage, one with Down syndrome and autism.

I am so sorry to hear that. It must have been very difficult for your boys.

I actually met the OM twice and both times thanked him for taking her off my hands.

Haha! But people just don't learn from other people's experiences.

Well, that was quite an interesting story, although very sad. I am sorry that you went through the pain. Don't assume that all women are like this. She is rather an exception.

[Reggie]

I'm not sure on the reliability of the stats. I am relyingon all the stuff I've read on the internet. The figure that keeps pooping up is about 30% stay together and many of those relationships limp along for the duration. Of course, thiis only applies to relationships where the infidelity is discovered. Apparently, the majority of the time, it is not.

Thanks for the condolences. I am much better off out and away from the abuse. My boys are happy and my daughters, who live with the ex, are all doing well. I have a very tight relationship with the girls but have major concerns re what has been modeled for them. Alas, no way to get custody, as she was a SAHM(did nothing around the house except work on her tan.)

I was fortunate that my lawyer, a law school classmate, was formerly a Social Worker. She directed me toward the info on borderlines and Narcissists and the criteria fit to a T for the X.

She's made a few overtures about getting counseling(she would not hear of it during the marriage or when the affair was on). Her source of supply has dried up, now.

My family, friends and even her family have threatened my physical well-being, if I contemplate taking her back.

She is still quite stunning, but with three kids and her infidelity well known, she is not that marketable.

[RecordProducer]

I am much better off out and away from the abuse. My boys are happy and my daughters, who live with the ex, are all doing well.

Good for you and them.

 

My family, friends and even her family have threatened my physical well-being, if I contemplate taking her back.

Should they? I mean, would you even consider that under more favorable conditions? It sounds like you're still not 100% over her, but time cures all love pain if you let it cure it.

She is still quite stunning, but with three kids and her infidelity well known, she is not that marketable.

You wouldn't believe what people would find marketable. I know women with four kids who re-married and they weren't attractive at all. Regarding infidelity, she can fool some poor guy easily that you were the bad apple and that's why she cheated. I've heard it with my own ears, how guys believe me whatever I say about my exes. I didn't lie to them, but if I did, they would've still believed me, I am sure.

 

Hey, you have five kids! Do you consider yourself less markatable because of that?

[RecordProducer]

You conveniently missed lesson #3: Flirt with your WIFE! That would have solved the whole problem WITHOUT his having to f around behind her back.

That's true, Donna. I guess it boils down to self-confidence and people won't choose means to get it. While immoral per se, we must draw the moral of the story and think how we can apply it to our own stories. You agree?

[Dexter Morgan]

I get what you are saying but unlike the OP's situation I never rewarded my ex for her cheating. From what he says his wife has actually become more attracted to him after his cheating and as wrong as that may be she is rewarding it and because of his straying

 

 

But she doesn't know he is messing around with other women and she doesn't know that he full well thinks he may end up physically cheating.

 

There is the big difference. If I had someone who made a change and I liked it, sure, I'm going to reward her. But if I found out it was because she was fooling around, out the door she goes.

 

And I get what some are saying. She told him that she isn't attracted to him the way he is. At least she was open and honest about it. The alternative, which most people at this site seem to condone, is that she isn't attracted to him, so instead of communicating with him, she cheats on him.

 

Would cheating on him had been a better alternative for her than being honest?