44, married and a pickup artist

[Reggie]

Well, we must run in different circles and have had different life expieriences. Most of my friends are successful, good looking guys. Most of us were pretty accomplished college athletes and the opportunities have always been there based on our appearance and finances. None of my friends would do this.

I do feel that one suffers in an unfulfilling marriage. But, with other avenues so readily available, including divorce, one can accomplish the goal of finding fulfillment honorably.

[Reggie]

Just wanted to add, that I doubt fear of detection is the deterrent. Most affairs go undetected according to studies. Despite the predictions here, there is a very good chance that yours will , too, unless you are careless.

It's just like drug usage. Fear of detection and prosecution has very little deterrent effect. Only a small fraction of users ever run into legal problems.

 

As for the women you meet not conciously looking for it, you are fooling yourself as to your powers of flirting and seduction. I'd bet , if you were privy to their histories, you are not the Lothario you fancy yourself. It's naive to think you persuaded them to do something that they were not looking to do.

[NewKatalyst]

Just wanted to add, that I doubt fear of detection is the deterrent. Most affairs go undetected according to studies. Despite the predictions here, there is a very good chance that yours will , too, unless you are careless.

It's just like drug usage. Fear of detection and prosecution has very little deterrent effect. Only a small fraction of users ever run into legal problems.

 

As for the women you meet not conciously looking for it, you are fooling yourself as to your powers of flirting and seduction. I'd bet , if you were privy to their histories, you are not the Lothario you fancy yourself. It's naive to think you persuaded them to do something that they were not looking to do.

 

I agree with the first part. Especially the part about risk not being a deterrent. Most people, including myself, don't really think about that part and in fact think that we'll be the ones who get away with it.

 

I don't think that I persuaded them to do something they didn't want to do at all. In fact, that's been my point all along. Many people want to but women especially need to give themsleves an excuse. It's important for them to think they didn't make the decision themselves. I'm not claiming to be a great Lothario. If I were George Clooney or Richard Gere, then I would have to assume it was my incredible charisma that transformed them. But I'm very much a regular guy. The only difference is that I do approach them and I do make them feel comfortable. My conclusion is that they were already predisposed to do this because they seek adventure of some kind.

 

And again, all I'm trying to say is that it's possible for you as a husband to instill this passion in your woman. I only learned hoow t do this maybe the round-about way.

[Reggie]

I think there are other ways to improve the passion in the marriage. I don't know your philosophy on life. I am a realtively old fart and, as I have come closer to the end of my life, I've realized that the most important thing to me ishow I will be able to look back on how I've conducted myself. I have some skeletons to deal with.

That is what I've tried to convey to you. It's not about getting caught or having a multitude of pleasurable expieriences to look back on. To me, it's going to be about being able to look at my life and feel I did okay. That's what I meant about diminishing oneself and the legacy thing.

My dad was a brilliant lawyer, graduated Harvard Law in less than 3 years and was asked to stay on and teach. He accomplished a lot in his career and had many exciting expieriences. He also abused my mom mercilessly as well as the older kids.

I don't know that he ever cheated, but he was out to all hours most nights which was a blessing to us. We'd pray he would pass out before he got to us each night.

I always thought that my idea of hell would be looking his looking back on the legacy he left, the way his kids suffered and what they think of him. That is what you are risking in my estimation. And, I am no bible thumper.

[2sunny]

ok - here's the real truth.

 

this may have nothing to do with your so called powers to persuade a gal to have sex with you. that is just you flathering yourself.

 

there are women out there that have no boundaries and are as willing as any guy, and i do mean ANY guy.

 

women are horny too. they can justify and use a man for sex just as men do.

 

doesn't matter if a man flirts or not - some women just want the sex. your perception of the flirting as making a difference for attracting these women is null... you are just paying more attention now than you were before to the gals around you. these women might be using you more than you are using them.

 

the fact that you also have the free time to pursue them just adds the fuel to the fire.

 

you are also fooling yourself if you think that your wife doesn't suspect SOMETHING being up. most likely she suspects, and she's just not telling you.

[LadyDi]

Hmmm, I have mixed feelings about your post. On the one hand, I think this is just a phase for you. Its exciting, fun and you feel like a young man again. Good for you! I really mean it. But Hon, it's not going to last forever. You won't be young forever! (and I'm speaking from an age older than you....) Yes older men (I'm talking 50's or older here) get the babe's but it will probably be a little harder to accomplish. Then what? Were you planning on living this way on up till your too old?

 

The other hand, when you do reach that ripe ol age...you'll want the wife and kids again. Family will be wheree its at, not the club scene. Can you fool people long enough till then?

 

....and please DO practice safe sax. Never bring anything home....

[Holding-On]

Well, I disagree that all of those who don't cheat are necessarily refraning for any of the reasons you mentioned above. Based on what I've seen, many men don't sleep with other women because they don't dare or know how to go about it. They're too scared. I believe that 99% of the men out there would respond to the advances of a terrifically beautiful woman if it ever happened (it of course never does).

 

From what I've seen, married women don't cheat because they haven't been persuaded to. But again, if the timing is right, they will readily do so. Most of the "taken" women I've been with were on a girl's night out and presumably with no conscious intention to fool around.

 

Complete threadjack but ...

well thank you for this quote.

It explains a lot to me about why OW/MW get so much more flack than OM, or even, MM - a fact that has always surprised me. It seems the person who made a vow they broke ought to be getting the heaviest of the condemnation from society but really that's not what I see.

 

However, if men believe what you say about other men being so easily manipulated by pretty women and less about married women being able to be manipulated by players, it explains a lot.

You've gotten a couple of "I understand the attraction" / "go get em tiger" responses in this thread and I have NEVER seen that on a post for a woman.

Most of those women you are having flings with probably simply want sex and you are advertising that you will give it without clinging or, apparently, guilt.

[RecordProducer]

I don't think this topic was for discussion; it was an observation based on experience. Think of it as an experiment. The conclusion, as extreme as it may be, is REAL. This man did try to be a good husband and it didn't make his wife happy.

 

I think the point is that women do find bad boys attractive, as this guy was boring when he was nice and became very interesting to his wife and everybody else when he turned into a bad boy.

 

I am beginning to think that Alphamale (our fellow LS member) is right when he asserts this theory. Nice guys do finish last and men do love bitches. Yikes! Does that mean we should all turn into cheaters when our spouses are rejecting us?

 

Do whatever floats your boat. As NK said:

 

If you don't believe me then go ahead and write me off as a troll and keep doing what you've been doing so far. Ask yourself how that's been working.

[Reggie]

I think you get a skewed view of the marital success of "good guys" if you use this forum as a source of your information. There are many nice guys in happy, fulfillingmarriage. This is not a representative sample, IMO.

[Reggie]

Complete threadjack but ...

well thank you for this quote.

It explains a lot to me about why OW/MW get so much more flack than OM, or even, MM - a fact that has always surprised me. It seems the person who made a vow they broke ought to be getting the heaviest of the condemnation from society but really that's not what I see.

 

However, if men believe what you say about other men being so easily manipulated by pretty women and less about married women being able to be manipulated by players, it explains a lot.

You've gotten a couple of "I understand the attraction" / "go get em tiger" responses in this thread and I have NEVER seen that on a post for a woman.

Most of those women you are having flings with probably simply want sex and you are advertising that you will give it without clinging or, apparently, guilt.

 

I disagree that men are viewed any differently than women when it comes to cheating.

Want to see some encouragement for MW cheating? Go to the OM/OW forum. It's all over the place there.

[ghawthorne]

I've read well meaning suggestions here and on other advice forums that urge men in these situations to putmore effort at being nice. I simply found that being so nice was not only ineffective, I think it made me boring in her eyes. It actually lessened my chances of improving the passion. Through my infideliies, I learned a bit more about what motivates peope.

 

I think you need to be more than just "nice". I can be nice to my dog and be sure and feed it or nice to my neighbors and say hello or point out that their garbage can blew into the street. I think you need to be involved in a relationship and not just roommates who just don't belch or fart in each other's faces.

 

(Tuesday is a traditional girls night out here). At first I was secretly appalled at how many were willing to cheat so readily. But then I realized they were probably no different than me. They lacked passion in their marriage. They wanted the uncertainty, the chase, the adventure.

 

You were appalled by them and how did you feel about your own behavior?

 

That made me think that this is what my wife commented about a few years prior when she said I lacked "flair". I had asked her what she meant by "flair", but she couldn't put it into words. After doing what I did for several month in Switzerland, I think I understood what she thought was missing.

 

Realizing that this was inherently bad, I practiced my conversation, my seduction techniques if you will, on my wife. I also practiced on her friends when they came over (but I was not blatant). The results were that my wife got passionate again. The reaction from two of her friends was surprising as well, but that's another story.

 

In the end, what I'm saying is .. forget counseling, forget "the talk", forget nagging. I did all that and it not only got me nowhere .. it may have made the problem worse. I'm definitely not suggesting you go on a sexual binge like I did, but I do suggest that you at least flirt with women outside as often as you can. Do this with the cashier at the store, the lady selling train tickets, the phone operator. Some will respond badly, some won't. After awhile, the women you flirt with will respond well almost all the time because your confidence is up and your conversation is exciting to them. I suspect that this will make you get that elusive flair which will interest your wife.

 

Basically, this is the end justifies the means argument. And it is great that your marriage is revitalized and you have found your way to create some excitement and passion in your marriage -- but at what cost? Are you willing to give it up now and focus on this now passionate relationship with the woman you married?

 

It sounds almost like an addiction to me because you are offering rationales as to why people should cheat. It sounds like an alcoholic who likes to drink because it makes them more friendly or not so tightly wound. Or a pothead saying go ahead and try it, you will feel better.

 

No thanks.

[NewKatalyst]

Basically, this is the end justifies the means argument. And it is great that your marriage is revitalized and you have found your way to create some excitement and passion in your marriage -- but at what cost? Are you willing to give it up now and focus on this now passionate relationship with the woman you married?

 

It sounds almost like an addiction to me because you are offering rationales as to why people should cheat. It sounds like an alcoholic who likes to drink because it makes them more friendly or not so tightly wound. Or a pothead saying go ahead and try it, you will feel better.

 

No thanks.

 

Actually, I never encouraged anyone to cheat like I did. I do recognize that I've become addicted to the results of my actions and that this may in the end lead to a price to pay.

 

What I am saying to the men is to go ahead and flirt as often as you can. You don't need to pass to the act, but it would be good to teach yourselves how to get to the point where you could if you wanted to. If you choose not to, then at least you've actively practiced a level of faithfulness that means something (you could have cheated but you actively chose not to).

 

The point of the above is to learn how people work, especially the women, and especially your wife. Flirting like this, like anything else you practice, makes you better at it, makes you more confident, and therefore makes you able to engage your wife in a manner that generates some excitement in the relationship. That's really all I'm saying.

[GoodOnPaper]

What I am saying to the men is to go ahead and flirt as often as you can. You don't need to pass to the act, but it would be good to teach yourselves how to get to the point where you could if you wanted to. If you choose not to, then at least you've actively practiced a level of faithfulness that means something (you could have cheated but you actively chose not to).

 

As a married man with an extensive "nice guy" history, this really resonates with me. A vow to be faithful is moot when there is no realistic possibility of any other women taking an interest.

[carhill]

My anecdotal experience supports your assertion in your last post, OP. I also, during a specific period, experimented with what I call the "power of the ring", seeing how the wearing (or not) of a wedding ring affected things. Those experiences, along with MC, really helped my understanding of the marital dynamic better.

 

Tell me, are you emotionally detached from your wife? Can you sit in the same room as her and type this stuff onto the forum and not feel anything? Be honest about that. IME, it's really important to know.

[2sure]

OP, you sound very much like my husband, except our marriage was not in a lull or having problems. He was this way when I got him, I just didnt know. It has nothing to do with me. In fact, other than the actual infidelity..if he was any different...he wouldn't be the same person.

 

So, I caught him. And he decided to solve his problem. No need to get into all of that on this particular thread.

 

My point is, he still flirts. He gets either a kick out of, or confidence from...knowing he has the option.

You can not cheat and still reap the benefits you seek. If you HAVE to bang OW, cut your wife loose. She is a human being and this is her life.

[RecordProducer]

Tell me, are you emotionally detached from your wife? Can you sit in the same room as her and type this stuff onto the forum and not feel anything? Be honest about that. IME, it's really important to know.

I was wondering about that, too. But it's not important and we know the answer: no, he doesn't really feel guilty in the sense that it's eating him up.

 

I think everybody missed the point of this thread. Let me simplify it:

NK is a player (or a male slut if you wish). Women find him irresistible. When he was a nice guy, nobody found him attractive, not even his own wife who claimed he didn't have the flair. THAT is the point of this thread.

 

His goal was to give us food for thought. He explicitly stated he didn't ask for any advice. Attacking him in regards with his lifestyle is pointless; he will neither change nor would changing him change the millions of other

men who live like this. Draw your own conclusions and apply them in any philosophical way you wish. And don't forget, he didn't have a good marriage; his wife admitted she was NOT attracted to him and she refused sex.

[2sure]

When he was a nice guy, nobody found him attractive, not even his own wife who claimed he didn't have the flair. THAT is the point of this thread.

 

Got it. You're right of course.

 

 

Having said my H is or may be similar to this gentleman,

And that my H has cheated on me,

And that his flirting and attractiveness to women is part of who he is,

And that if he were any different, he really wouldnt be the same man...

And if he was not the same man, I would not have fallen for him myself....

 

I wonder this:

 

If he did not have this proclivity for infidelity would I have married him?

 

Also, not looking for an answer here.

Just saying, I agree. "Nice" guys may not be as attractive to women. But it works both ways too.

As I told my husband "You cant play a player."

[Owl]

Sorry about what you may have gone through. All I'm trying to do is add another dimension to the problem. I think in most cases, men cheat on their wives after they think their sexual and intimate life with their wives is hopeless. I also learned that women will cheat more readily when the excitment is gone from their marriage.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting cheating nor do I even encourage it. Cheating is my issue. The point of my post to married men is .. learn how to flirt. I mean learn how to flirt effectively, which is far more complex than the usual flirting we bumble along with. I assert that knowing how to flirt will make you seem more exciting to the wives. I learned this by accident.

 

If you don't believe me then go ahead and write me off as a troll and keep doing what you've been doing so far. Ask yourself how that's been working.

 

Here's the flaw in your logic...

 

You recommend that flirting outside the marriage can build the skills needed to save the marriage.

 

The problem is...it also almost inevitably leads to cheating, just as you yourself discovered.

 

Which is the WORST thing for the marriage.

 

So your recommended "aid" to the marriage is going to be far, FAR more likely to result in many more damaged/destroyed marriages than it's likely to save.

 

Just as you're likely to find out in the near future.

 

The ODDS of successfully learning to flirt to the point that you've described and NOT 'crossing the line' are way too high...that's far too tight of a line to balance on.

 

I hear what you're saying about how the improved confidance and communication skills are good...but when you look at the very likely outcome and COST of your suggested "method" of obtaining them...it negates the value of that path.

 

Sorry...but think about it. This is like telling someone that the best way to cure the pain they're in from a toothache is to overdose on morphine. Sure, it'll make the pain go away...along with everything else. The cure is worse than the disease.

[jmargel]

NK,

 

Actually it's not hard to pick up women. I noticed with my weddnig band on, I get alot more looks, smiles, women touching and them starting conversations. Ever think it's because they like a challenge? To them, you are a challenge. The further they can take it, the further their ego is stroked, just like yours is.

 

You are taking your own insecurities and blaming them on your wife. You are taking your wife's behavior towards you and using it to justify these actions. The means don't justify the ends. And yes, it will come crashing down because for you to continue to feel that same sort of 'high' the more riskier the situation has to be in.

 

I've been there, done that. Been with the one night stands, been with the married women. Plenty of women have flirted with me since being married, and you know? It's just a game. It's sad that you have to out like you do to re-enforce to yourself to boost your ego and fight off some of that insecurity you have gotten by doing this. It's your children that are paying for this. What you are doing is lying to her. Truth untold is the same as a lie. You are not giving her the right she deserves to make her own decisions in this marriage. You are also risking her health by sleeping with all these women. You have become a player.

 

All the players I've known have always ended up alone. You marriage in reality now is just a piece of paper. Where is the meaning behind your vows?

[2sure]

Jmargel

 

Thats what Im talking about. Thank you.

[NewKatalyst]

NK,

 

Actually it's not hard to pick up women. I noticed with my weddnig band on, I get alot more looks, smiles, women touching and them starting conversations. Ever think it's because they like a challenge? To them, you are a challenge. The further they can take it, the further their ego is stroked, just like yours is.

 

You are taking your own insecurities and blaming them on your wife. You are taking your wife's behavior towards you and using it to justify these actions. The means don't justify the ends. And yes, it will come crashing down because for you to continue to feel that same sort of 'high' the more riskier the situation has to be in.

 

I've been there, done that. Been with the one night stands, been with the married women. Plenty of women have flirted with me since being married, and you know? It's just a game. It's sad that you have to out like you do to re-enforce to yourself to boost your ego and fight off some of that insecurity you have gotten by doing this. It's your children that are paying for this. What you are doing is lying to her. Truth untold is the same as a lie. You are not giving her the right she deserves to make her own decisions in this marriage. You are also risking her health by sleeping with all these women. You have become a player.

 

All the players I've known have always ended up alone. You marriage in reality now is just a piece of paper. Where is the meaning behind your vows?

 

In the end, even if you try to please everyone, you'll still please no one. While I was faithful and nice, I had no flair. Maybe in hindsight, my wife would prefer me the way I was before without the flair if she knew how I got it. But the point is, I decided not to worry tooo much about disappointing others anymore. It's very liberating, to tell you the truth. And all the more meaningful as I see at the age of 44, the dim smoky lights of old age and death approaching .. reminding me that my time here on earth is limited.

 

Yes JM, I will admit that alot of this is made possible by my own insecurities. I do love the validation I get from what I do. It's just the way it is.

 

But I will disagree that women are easy to pick up. They're damn hard to pick up unless of course you're exceptionally good looking or are a celebrity. For regular guys, it's a hugely risky and scary proposition. I know guys who think nothing of jumping in a boxing ring to get smashed to a pulp .. and yet will tremble in fear at the thought of talking to an attractive female stranger. Although I "pick up" many women, I wouldn't say it's in any way easy. If it was easy for you, then I salute you

 

As to the wedding ring. I think that's a myth. My theory is that women feel more comfortable and at ease with a married man because if he presses the issue too hard, she can just point to his ring. It's like how women love hanging out with gay men. It's just so much less threatening. For a straight man, that kind of attention can easily be confused for flirtation and intent.

 

In any case, I do agree that people like me end up alone. But the few I know who are in that spot don't seem to mind. I'd be more afraid of winding up old and with the wrong person.

[NewKatalyst]

I was wondering about that, too. But it's not important and we know the answer: no, he doesn't really feel guilty in the sense that it's eating him up.

 

I think everybody missed the point of this thread. Let me simplify it:

NK is a player (or a male slut if you wish). Women find him irresistible. When he was a nice guy, nobody found him attractive, not even his own wife who claimed he didn't have the flair. THAT is the point of this thread.

 

His goal was to give us food for thought. He explicitly stated he didn't ask for any advice. Attacking him in regards with his lifestyle is pointless; he will neither change nor would changing him change the millions of other

men who live like this. Draw your own conclusions and apply them in any philosophical way you wish. And don't forget, he didn't have a good marriage; his wife admitted she was NOT attracted to him and she refused sex.

 

You got it!

[Owl]

I'm still waiting to hear how you manage to flirt ENOUGH to get that "benefit" but still avoid cheating.

 

It didn't work in your case, nor do I feel it would work in the vast majority of situations.

 

Which kinda negates the value of flirting to improve the marriage in the first place, ya know?

[NewKatalyst]

I'm still waiting to hear how you manage to flirt ENOUGH to get that "benefit" but still avoid cheating.

 

It didn't work in your case, nor do I feel it would work in the vast majority of situations.

 

Which kinda negates the value of flirting to improve the marriage in the first place, ya know?

 

The benefit, I think, comes from the confidence that you get with getting womne to want you. Getting women to that point requires knowledge that you gain by the act of flirting effectively. Most people are very inept when they flirt at first but eventually get to where they know exactly what to say and do.

 

Maybe you have a point which I did think about today while I was on the flight. I actually slept with the women, and thus I really can't say how much of this undefinable flair came from that or not. I'm assuming that was the case, but then again, it a theory given that I didn't stop in time. But my money is still on the majority of the benefit coming from the act of flirting and attracting women.

[Reggie]

Life is full of tradeoffs. This lifestyle is not attractive to me. But , it is your choice.

The only flaw in choosing this lifestyle is that you cannot justify it's impact on your spouse and kids. It's not consensual by your wife and poses health risks to her that she is unaware of.

Presuming you have no moral objection to your own behavior and the tradeoff is worth it to you, how do you justify putting your wife at risk and denying her access to information she needs to make an informed decision?

Do you think she has the right to have a say in this?