proof that God is not angry with anyone

[chris250]

 

What happened to forgiveness, for they know not what they do? Where did all the high-minded rhetoric about mercy and forgiveness go, from a god who wants nobody to suffer?

 

Sometimes I just can't figure you Christians out.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

I must commend you for you are a true disciple of Christ even though you don't claim any religious affiliation or title. We know who Christ's disciples are by their love for their fellow man NOT by their religious claims. There are many disciples of Christ who may NOT know the name of Jesus or even claim to believe that He's God.

 

The mark of a true disciple of Christ is LOVE not doctrinal beliefs.

[Trimmer]

God is a busy God. He looks down at your little squeaks and say, "Hmmph, that little feller is already taken care of. I have My people to be concerned with."

 

Or he's too busy killing someone else and He will kill you later...

 

She's too busy to smite you at the moment...

 

How is it that when the question is asked "Well, where did God come from, and who or what created Him?" the answer is usually something along the lines that God transcends time...

 

Yet when we wonder why God doesn't do certain things, well, suddenly he becomes too busy.

 

I think that our ideas of what God can and can not do - will and will not do - demonstrate, simultaneously, the pitifully limited human perspective and enormous conceit which are the raw materials out of which we have created Him in our image.

[RecordProducer]

I must commend you for you are a true disciple of Christ even though you don't claim any religious affiliation or title. We know who Christ's disciples are by their love for their fellow man NOT by their religious claims. There are many disciples of Christ who may NOT know the name of Jesus or even claim to believe that He's God.

 

The mark of a true disciple of Christ is LOVE not doctrinal beliefs.

I totally agree with you. See, I am not religious at all, but I believe that if you follow the codex of doing the right thing, it could be the same, similar or different thing from the religious code, but still humane and kind.

 

I don't need a God to tell me how to treat life and people. I believe I can set my own rules.

[chris250]

Even though I am a believer in Christ and consider myself a christian I must say that I believe there are many kind hearted atheists and agnostics, wiccans, satanists, etc who manifest more fruit of the Spirit of God than in the organized christian religion.

 

Most people who want nothing to do with religion pay their taxes, contribute to society, help others, are faithful to their spouses, live lives of honor and integrity, honor their parents, & would not steal even if their life depended on it.

 

Why any christian would feel the need to convert these people to their faith or else they're going to go to hell is ridiculous. Atheists are our soliders in the military who fight honorably for our freedoms. It's ridiculous but I heard one religious leader on tv not too long ago saying that atheists are demon posessed.

[Moose]

is god angry with infants who die horribly painful deaths just after they are born ? why ?

This is an interesting question. We lost a child that wasn't developing properly, we had to have an emervency dnc, and we wondered the very same question. Some say that God already knew the child's destiny and what horrific sins he or she would've commited on this world, and decided not to allow those things to happen.

 

I prefer to believe that it happened so that we may be able to help others in the very same situation. To help comfort, greive, and grow in Him.

Well I'm a christian universalist so it does not matter because I believe everyone is going to be saved. You can curse God and not lose your salvation.

Good for you.....(I guess). However, Scripture is VERY clear that ALL will NOT be saved. Many reject Christ and Christ is THE only way to the Father.

God probably wouldn't use lightning to strike you down. Being omnipotent and all that jazz, my bet is that she'd play with you a bit. Make sure you hit all the red lights, lose your keys, always wind up in the wrong line at the grocery store.... Stuff like that.

That reminds me of a joke where a guy called into work lying about being sick just so he could go play golf. His, "guardian angels" tagged alone, (as they "do") and made sure that everyone of his shots were hole in ones......just so he couldn't tell anyone at work......

What happened to forgiveness, for they know not what they do? Where did all the high-minded rhetoric about mercy and forgiveness go, from a god who wants nobody to suffer?

True Believers will be chastened. Regardless. If I didn't love my children, I'd let them go around the world causing havic any way they could. Instead, I love them by disciplining them. Same way with my Heavenly Father in the way He discilines me, (us).

Only self righteous people oppose the God of universalism.

Self Righteousness hasn't anything to do whether or not we oppose the, "God of universalism". True Beleivers are snow covered dung my friend. Christ is that snow that covers all Sin,

What makes you so special to think you deserve heaven while someone else doesn't? You think you are better than others?

and not EVERYONE believes in Christ.....get over it.

If God is going to send one person to hell then He would have to send everyone else in order to be just because we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is no difference.

Putting your Faith in Christ is ALL the difference in the world. Not EVERYONE is going to do so. It's their choice, and you need to get over it.....

If there is even a chance that one soul would be excluded from heaven then I have no reason to believe that I'm included in heaven because I'm not better than anyone else.

I'm here to tell you that millions are in hell at this very moment. (Seperated from God eternally).

 

Accept Christ, and this will not be the case for you.

It does not change the fact that God has already made you righteous through Christ apart from your works or faith even if you want to believe that you had a part to play in your salvation

You have to accept this as FACT. Millions WON"T......do you not understand this????

So if it makes you feel better to think that God should give you special treatment over someone else then knock yourself out.

You're absolutely correct that we are all on a level playing field. You keep leaving out that it's a CHOICE to acceipt the free gift of salvation. If everyone were to go to heaven, some would consider it a fate WORSE than Hell itself......

Humanity is inherently good because God is good and He made us in His image and likeness.

The fallacy in this statement sticks out like a sore thumb. God made us in His image, which is to say that He gave us freedom of will. We CHOSE to dis-obey Him, (Fall of man) so yes, Humanity was CREATED inherently good, but we CHOSE our own, "self righteousness" over His plan.....Therefore, we are seperated from Him and His righteousness unless we CHOSE to accept Christ's attoinment for our Sins. Not EVERYONE is going to do this!!!!! Understand yet? Sinking in yet?

The only way for me to be convinced that I'm right with God is to be convinced that everyone else is right with God. I have no reason to believe I'm qualified to go to heaven unless everyone else is qualified first. Otherwise I would be self righteous.

Rest assured. EVERYONE QUALIFIES. But it takes a CHOICE.

The mark of a true disciple of Christ is LOVE not doctrinal beliefs.

Not for critical thinkers my friend.

[NWSTRT2121]

Even though I am a believer in Christ and consider myself a christian I must say that I believe there are many kind hearted atheists and agnostics, wiccans, satanists, etc who manifest more fruit of the Spirit of God than in the organized christian religion.

 

Most people who want nothing to do with religion pay their taxes, contribute to society, help others, are faithful to their spouses, live lives of honor and integrity, honor their parents, & would not steal even if their life depended on it.

 

Why any christian would feel the need to convert these people to their faith or else they're going to go to hell is ridiculous. Atheists are our soliders in the military who fight honorably for our freedoms. It's ridiculous but I heard one religious leader on tv not too long ago saying that atheists are demon posessed.

 

This was a great post Chris250 and as a Christian I agree completely with what you said. However in a previous post when you said , "the only way for me to be convinced that I'm right with God is to be convinced that everyone else is right with God." I thought that was a strange statement to make as bentnotbroken pointed out. Why can't you be right with God now? As you mentioned not everyone has chosen the Christian faith and all we can do is welcome them if they decide to give it a try and continue treating them with respect and dignity if they do not. Right now I feel at peace with God and feel I am right with God at this moment. As Moose pointed out, not everyone will be saved and it's been hard for me as a Christian to come to terms with this idea that those not of our faith will not be saved after death, but all we can do is Christians is live our lives as best we can, prey for the well being of ourselves and others and live through Jesus's name.

[chris250]

As Moose pointed out, not everyone will be saved and it's been hard for me as a Christian to come to terms with this idea that those not of our faith will not be saved after death, but all we can do is Christians is live our lives as best we can, prey for the well being of ourselves and others and live through Jesus's name.

 

The reason it's hard for you to come to terms with this idea is because your heart is kinder than your doctrine.

 

Anytime your heart is kinder than your doctrinal beliefs then there's something wrong with your doctrine not your heart.

 

In order to hang on to the doctrine of hell then you would have to admit that your heart is kinder than God's heart. That can't be possible.

 

I believe God has more of a reason to be optimistic about the future of all humanity than I do since I'm just a finite being whose love for his fellow humans is very limited.

 

We should expect that God's love will be expressed at the very minimum to what we see expressed in the best of humanity. But God's love & grace is much greater than our finite minds can comprehend or accept.

 

I don't care how rebellious my children are. There are other solutions to deal with them. Torture is not the answer. Why must we assume that eternal torture is the only way that God can deal with His rebellious kids?

[Moose]

My friend, CHRISTIAN Doctrine and God are ONE and the SAME.

 

Where do you think CHRISTIAN Doctrine came from????!!!

 

God said repent or be eternally seperated from Him. (aka as Hell)

Why must we assume that eternal torture is the only way that God can deal with His rebellious kids?

If your kids where about to touch a hot stove, would they pay the consequences if they follow through with it, regardless if you WARN them or not?

 

Same thing with our Heavenly Father. There is a price to pay when we don't listen to our parents. God is our Heavenly Father, and what He says GOES.....

 

You cannotcall yourself a Christian and adhere to the belief that everyone is going to Heaven even if they don't confess Christ as their Saviour.....

[Trojan John]

Yay, religion! Pushing fear-mongering and subservience since the dawn of time.

[Moose]

Yay, religion! Pushing fear-mongering and subservience since the dawn of time.

Would you let a person that you truly love walk in front of a speeding bus?

 

Decisions / Actions always has consequences....

[chris250]

My friend, CHRISTIAN Doctrine and God are ONE and the SAME.

 

Where do you think CHRISTIAN Doctrine came from????!!!

 

God said repent or be eternally seperated from Him. (aka as Hell)If your kids where about to touch a hot stove, would they pay the consequences if they follow through with it, regardless if you WARN them or not?

 

Same thing with our Heavenly Father. There is a price to pay when we don't listen to our parents. God is our Heavenly Father, and what He says GOES.....

 

You cannotcall yourself a Christian and adhere to the belief that everyone is going to Heaven even if they don't confess Christ as their Saviour.....

 

 

You are comparing apples with oranges. Anyone who is smart enough to think for themselves can see the fallacy in your analogy. First of all if all you did was warn your child not to put their hand on that hot stove and you didn't go against their will and keep them away from the stove in the first place you would be one neglectful parent. In which case you should be locked up for child neglect.

 

Let's see how a human judge in court would excuse your neglect when you say "your honor I love my child so much that I gave him free will to touch that hot stove if he really wanted to." If you really believe a judge would let that parent off the hook then you are sadly mistaken.

 

If any human parent had the same attitude that your god had who just sits back and says "I'm not responsible for my kid's safety. I gave him free will" that parent would be locked up for neglect. Remind me to never let you babysit my children.

 

Second of all you insult God's omnipotence with your analogy. Human parents cannot be around all the time to watch their children because they are not omnipresent and omnipotent like God is. I grant you that. However if a human parent had the same powers that God had then it makes his failure to save his kids all the more inexcusable.

 

God is omnipresent and omnipotent and therefore can prevent his kids from touching the hot stove at all times. Can God override the will of his kids when it's in their best interest? Is He too weak?

 

You emphasize free will and choice which means that your god's desire to give His children free will is greater than His love for them. Therefore what you are saying is that God does not love His kids enough to override their will no matter what the circumstances.

 

Any responsible parent who sees their kids running in the middle of the street will stop at nothing to run out there and drag their kids back into the house. That's what a savior also does by the way.

 

A savior is not just one who tries to save a drowning victim by extending his hand out into the water. A savior also dives under the water and pulls the drowning victim out of the water and safely to shore.

 

I would be embarrassed to call myself a savior of that victim's life if I did not successfully bring him safely to shore. Unlike your god most humans do not worry about consulting with a drowning victim first before saving his life. We just do it.

 

The bible calls Jesus the Savior of the world. Well if not everyone is saved then He should be embarrassed to call Himself the Savior of the world because that would mean He's a liar if not all are saved.

 

So either way you slice it most humans have more optimism and love and patience and determination to save people who are in trouble than your god does.

 

You can't call yourself a christian if you are self righteous. So far in your posts your attitude has come across as condescending and arrogant. Self righteousness has no business in the life of a christian.

[JamesM]

You can't call yourself a christian if you are self righteous. So far in your posts your attitude has come across as condescending and arrogant. Self righteousness has no business in the life of a christian.

 

Uh, not speaking for Moose here, but as a reader of your posts, I do not see a lot of humility in yours either.

 

Besides according to your view, everyone is a Christian. So arrogant or humble, all will be in Heaven with that logic. So yes, then Moose can call himself a Christian...according to your logic. Your statement is self-contradictory.

 

Since you have decided that you can tell others whether they can call themselves Christians, yet you also say that ALL can be converted, your arguments have become confusing to some of us.

 

To paraphrase you....Anyone who is smart enough to think for themselves can see the fallacy in your logic.

[Moose]

You are comparing apples with oranges. Anyone who is smart enough to think for themselves can see the fallacy in your analogy. First of all if all you did was warn your child not to put their hand on that hot stove and you didn't go against their will and keep them away from the stove in the first place you would be one neglectful parent. In which case you should be locked up for child neglect.

 

Let's see how a human judge in court would excuse your neglect when you say "your honor I love my child so much that I gave him free will to touch that hot stove if he really wanted to." If you really believe a judge would let that parent off the hook then you are sadly mistaken.

 

If any human parent had the same attitude that your god had who just sits back and says "I'm not responsible for my kid's safety. I gave him free will" that parent would be locked up for neglect. Remind me to never let you babysit my children.

I have five children. Two eyes. I can tell them the stove is hot, whether or not I'm present when they touch it doesn't prove that I'm a bad parent. Your case wouldn't hold in a court of law.

Second of all you insult God's omnipotence with your analogy. Human parents cannot be around all the time to watch their children because they are not omnipresent and omnipotent like God is. I grant you that. However if a human parent had the same powers that God had then it makes his failure to save his kids all the more inexcusable.

 

God is omnipresent and omnipotent and therefore can prevent his kids from touching the hot stove at all times. Can God override the will of his kids when it's in their best interest? Is He too weak?

You're not getting it. Love doesn't mean anything until you CHOOSE to love someone. God CHOOSES to love each and everyone of us, saved or unsaved, BUT if the unsaved CHOOSES not to love God, that means absolutely nothing to God, and therefore would be REJECTED by Him. Otherwise, He would be considered a, "Cosmic Rapist"......does this not make sense to you?

You can't call yourself a christian if you are self righteous. So far in your posts your attitude has come across as condescending and arrogant. Self righteousness has no business in the life of a christian.

How many times do I have to explain to you that we are all EQUAL in God's eyes? We are ALL dung! Some of are covered with Christ, BUT some refuse to be. That is not self-rightgeousnes, that is TRUTH.

[Trojan John]

Would you let a person that you truly love walk in front of a speeding bus?

 

Decisions / Actions always has consequences....

 

If I could stop them, no. If they still wanted to walk in front of said bus, I would advise against it, but they will do it whether I'm there or not. Same with joining a cult or believing in myths. However, I don't go around proclaiming to people that they are going to hell for their beliefs.

[chris250]

Uh, not speaking for Moose here, but as a reader of your posts, I do not see a lot of humility in yours either.

 

Besides according to your view, everyone is a Christian. So arrogant or humble, all will be in Heaven with that logic. So yes, then Moose can call himself a Christian...according to your logic. Your statement is self-contradictory.

 

Since you have decided that you can tell others whether they can call themselves Christians, yet you also say that ALL can be converted, your arguments have become confusing to some of us.

 

To paraphrase you....Anyone who is smart enough to think for themselves can see the fallacy in your logic.

 

I never said everyone was a christian. I said everyone is saved. There is a difference. I do not believe one has to be a christian to be saved.

 

You may not see humility in my posts but what you also don't see is telling anyone that they're going to hell. Moose on the other hand is self righteous for believing that he's qualified to go to heaven while some are not.

 

Yes it is self righteous to say that one has to believe in Jesus to go to heaven.

[chris250]

I have five children. Two eyes. I can tell them the stove is hot, whether or not I'm present when they touch it doesn't prove that I'm a bad parent. Your case wouldn't hold in a court of law.You're not getting it. Love doesn't mean anything until you CHOOSE to love someone. God CHOOSES to love each and everyone of us, saved or unsaved, BUT if the unsaved CHOOSES not to love God, that means absolutely nothing to God, and therefore would be REJECTED by Him. Otherwise, He would be considered a, "Cosmic Rapist"......does this not make sense to you?How many times do I have to explain to you that we are all EQUAL in God's eyes? We are ALL dung! Some of are covered with Christ, BUT some refuse to be. That is not self-rightgeousnes, that is TRUTH.

 

Either everybody is covered by Christ or nobody is covered by Christ. To suggest that some will make it and some won't is what makes you self righteous.

 

God saving people against their will does not make Him a cosmic rapist. That's like saying that I'm a lifeguard rapist if I save a drowning victim against their will.

 

Just admit it. Your God's desire to not violate anyone's will is greater than His love for them. It doesn't matter how nicely you try to dress it up.

 

My God is greater than your god. My God is all powerful and all willing to save all and therefore all will be saved.

 

Besides if God really left it up to us to get saved then don't you think He would have consulted with us first before sending His Son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world?

 

If God loved us enough to sacrifice His Son Jesus without our permission then certainly He loves us enough to save us without giving us a say in the matter.

 

Why would God go through all that trouble of dying a horrible death without our consent if He really wanted our consent before saving us in the first place?

[JamesM]

I never said everyone was a christian. I said everyone is saved. There is a difference. I do not believe one has to be a christian to be saved.

 

 

Saved from what by whom?

 

If everyone is saved from eternal death or hell, then there is no hell by that logic. And if there is no hell, then there is nothing from which to be saved.

[chris250]

Saved from what by whom?

 

If everyone is saved from eternal death or hell, then there is no hell by that logic. And if there is no hell, then there is nothing from which to be saved.

 

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. He saved everyone from the condition of sin & death. Sin, death, the grave are what we needed salvation from. Death was the wages of sin NOT eternal torment.

 

So no I do not believe we need to be saved from eternal torment nor do I believe we need to be saved from God's wrath. Why would we need Jesus to protect us from God?

 

If not everyone is saved then Jesus died in vain. I believe the crosswork of Christ was so victorious & powerful enough to save ALL. Evangelical christians believe the cross was powerful enough only to save a few. That doctrine cheapens what Christ did at the cross & resurrection.

[Nemo]

Here's how I found positive proof

You have proved nothing. Well, except that you have kangaroos loose in your top paddock.

[disgracian]

I'd just like to pick up on the two analogies (hand on hot stove and oncoming bus) and point out just how deeply flawed they are:

• The bus - This one is easy. First, a bus can be proven to exist. It is a physical object that can be seen. There also can be no argument as to where the bus really is, which way it's going, who it stops for and what colour it is. The danger presented by a bus is also tangible and quantifiable using our understanding of physics. On the other hand, The danger presented by potentially angering one of the thousands of gods that exist is about as concrete as claims of being constantly orbited by celestial beings with flaming swords that fight off demons. We can't see gods or their eternal torture chambers, can't agree upon whether they will punish us or not, whether they exist and so on.
  
• The burning stove - This one immediately breaks down because, in addition to the problems raised in the previous analogy, the consequences aren't even remotely comparable. A burned hand heals and the pain goes away. And the biggest difference is that it is a learning experience not to do it again. Hell is not a learning experience, it is sadism for the reasons I have explained multiple times before. No analogies with punishment work for the simple fact that parents use punishment to discipline and teach children, they do not throw them in a burning pit forever. And again, there is no confusion for a child as to who their parents are, while there is with which god (if any) might actually exist.
  

Cheers,

D.

[JamesM]

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. He saved everyone from the condition of sin & death. Sin, death, the grave are what we needed salvation from. Death was the wages of sin NOT eternal torment.

 

And if one does not believe in Jesus, then he or she is still saved? And I did not say that eternal torment was the wages of sin. I did say eternal death.

 

And we do know that everyone dies. We see it every day. So the condition of death still exists.

 

And who defines sin? The Bible? Christianity? Islam? Judaism?

 

And if I do not believe I need to be saved or I do not believe I have sin, how can I be saved when I need no salvation?

 

So no I do not believe we need to be saved from eternal torment nor do I believe we need to be saved from God's wrath. Why would we need Jesus to protect us from God?

 

Read the Bible. God's wrath is against those who have transgressed His Law. Define sin. Here is a definition:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sin

 

A transgression against a moral law...WHOSE Law? Why would someone need salvation from sin if their is no need to fear the wrath of God?

 

If not everyone is saved then Jesus died in vain. I believe the crosswork of Christ was so victorious & powerful enough to save ALL. Evangelical christians believe the cross was powerful enough only to save a few. That doctrine cheapens what Christ did at the cross & resurrection.

 

Where do you read...anywhere...that Jesus died for everyone even if they do not believe in Him? Christ may have died on the cross for sinners who believe, but that does not mean that all sinners believe. And if all sinners do not believe, then how can they recognize that salvation is necessary?

 

And as any analogy is not perfect yet parts can still prove a point, I will use the danger of the bus coming at you...which you do not see. I yell, "Move or you will be killed!" You say, "I don't believe." My warning is strong enough and loud enough to certainly give you the advice you need to save your life, but you would need to move.

 

So while universalism certainly may be enticing, it does not logically make sense.

[JamesM]

[*]The bus - This one is easy. First, a bus can be proven to exist. It is a physical object that can be seen.

 

Actually, your flaw is not really a flaw. While that bus may exist and may be obvious to those who see it, the fog that covers its visibility may keep the one who is in its path from seeing his or her demise.

 

There also can be no argument as to where the bus really is, which way it's going, who it stops for and what colour it is. The danger presented by a bus is also tangible and quantifiable using our understanding of physics.

 

Only if the person sees it. Only of the person understands the laws of physics regarding the bus. Just because one is not aware of the bus coming at him or her, this does not eliminate the results of standing in its way.

 

We can't see gods or their eternal torture chambers, can't agree upon whether they will punish us or not, whether they exist and so on.

 

Just as it doesn't change the existence of the bus for those who can see it, so with God, it doesn't change His existence. While for many they argue about His existence and are still standing in His path, there are many who realize that He does exist and salvation is necessary.

 

[*]The burning stove - This one immediately breaks down because, in addition to the problems raised in the previous analogy, the consequences aren't even remotely comparable.

 

They are.

 

A burned hand heals and the pain goes away.

 

Here you are making the assumption that the person who puts his or her hand on the stove will take it away. If the person keeps it there, then the pain continues and no healing takes place. In fact, eventually death does occur.

 

And the biggest difference is that it is a learning experience not to do it again.

 

Assumption made...learning occurs.

 

Hell is not a learning experience,

 

No, it is a punishment as a result of sin. "Sin against God, and punishment happens." Stick your hand on the stove, and you will get burned."

 

No analogies with punishment work for the simple fact that parents use punishment to discipline and teach children, they do not throw them in a burning pit forever.

 

We do agree that no finite analogy will be perfect when compared to an infinite God. And truthfully, Punishment by definition is not meant for discipline. It is retribution for something done wrong or a penalty for breaking a law.

 

When a parent says, "Keep your hands off the stove or you will get burned," they are not using the hot stove for discipline. The burning is the result of the action. It is the penalty. And when God says that the wages of sin is eternal death, then eternal death is the penalty.

 

And again, there is no confusion for a child as to who their parents are, while there is with which god (if any) might actually exist.

 

Again, while there is confusion for some, there certainly is not confusion for all.

[chris250]

John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins and not only for ours but the sins of the whole world.

 

So this proves that Jesus died for all not just for those who believe. It does not make sense that He would go through all that trouble just to save a certain group of people.

 

The condition of death was destroyed 2000 years ago in the resurrection of Christ. What you see happening to our physical bodies has got nothing to do with death. We can't define death by what is still happening to our bodies.

 

Our bodies are not the real us. The real is is a resurrected spiritual being that happens to live in an earthly tent. Our spirits have eternal life. That was not the case before Christ came on the scene.

 

Our spirits were dead before the cross & therefore death was the cessation of conscious existence at that time. Those who died in old testament times were sleeping in the grave until Christ died & rose again to free the captives from the grave.

 

It's also good to watch the history channel on mysteries of the bible. They have different viewpoints about hell from like jewish rabbis, other bible scholars, etc. The word hell in the original hebrew languages is the word "sheol" which means "the grave or realm of the dead." Nobody in this realm was being tortured or burned alive. They were sleeping.

 

So Christ reawakened our spirits from eternal sleep.

[JamesM]

John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins and not only for ours but the sins of the whole world.

 

John 3:16 - 18

 

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

So this proves that Jesus died for all not just for those who believe.

 

Nope.

 

It does not make sense that He would go through all that trouble just to save a certain group of people.

 

Truer words were never spoken. God's people are in awe at such a gift. Why would the Almighty God sen His Son to die for such lowly and sinful men and women as they?

 

The condition of death was destroyed 2000 years ago in the resurrection of Christ.

 

No, Jesus gave the VICTORY over death. Death is not eliminated.

 

Our bodies are not the real us. The real is is a resurrected spiritual being that happens to live in an earthly tent. Our spirits have eternal life. That was not the case before Christ came on the scene.

 

Again, the Bible speaks of a physical resurrection. The physical body will be reunited with the spiritual body. Both bodies are us.

 

Those who died in old testament times were sleeping in the grave until Christ died & rose again to free the captives from the grave.

 

He freed the believers from the grave.

 

The word hell in the original hebrew languages is the word "sheol" which means "the grave or realm of the dead." Nobody in this realm was being tortured or burned alive. They were sleeping.

 

Incorrect. Believers were kept in comfort while non-believers were in torment. This is illustrated in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. It is Luke 16: 19 - 31.

 

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

http://www.hymns.me.uk/76-lazarus-and-the-rich-man-bible-story.htm

 

So Christ reawakened our spirits from eternal sleep.

 

No, Christ did this for His people that God had given Him.

[disgracian]

So while universalism certainly may be enticing, it does not logically make sense.

Universalism makes perfect sense. While it does contradict Christianity, that is not necessarily a bad thing, nor does it mean Universalism is flawed or wrong in any way.

 

Cheers,

D.