Career VS Family

[Dumbledore]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to say "Hi!" to all those losers out there with jobs. Maybe one day you'll be hawt enough to bask in the pure contentment of a career, but for now you'll all be required to bow down before the ego, suckahs!

[Trialbyfire]

Oh really? Care to elaborate?

 

Are these your truths perhaps?

There's truth and then there's twisted realities with blatant untruths. Most aren't difficult to spot if people are looking close enough or understand the players involved and their histories...

[Touche]

There's truth and then there's twisted realities with blatant untruths. Most aren't difficult to spot if people are looking close enough or understand the players involved and their histories...

 

OH yeah, right. I forgot. I'm delusional! Yep, I'm so miserable and I've made all the wrong decisions in life.

 

Right.

 

Dumble you're cracking me up! You're so hawt. I love your core values. Want to cycle with me sometime?

 

But for now I must take my leave. I'm so scared of the scrutiny and all the people on here who might reveal my horrid history. I shudder at the very though.

[Taramere]

We've seen so many times how Corporate America is very anti-family, despite any messages they try to put out otherwise. They overwork everyone, lay off people who need the job to support children, and often times make people have to choose between staying late or going home to the family.

 

That's the strong impression I get. That the employment laws in the US aren't very pro-family. Or, actually, pro helping people to achieve a good work/life balance. That whether or not a person can get that good balance depends significantly on how nice the employer feels like being.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, or missing something, but male or female...if you want children in your life, then maybe it means you have to forget about those dreams of being the partner in the firm, or CEO, or being at "the top". Not if it means living a distant life from your family. I feel like if you want to get to "the top" then you might have to give up on the ideas of marriage and family...and devote it all to the career.

 

The alternative would be to lobby for new employment laws that provided better protection to workers. It's Dickensian for an employer to expect its workforce to be at its beck and call to the extent that all other aspects of life take a back seat. Then again, by denying employees the level of statutory protection afforded in other Western Countries, the US encourages corporations to retain a larger share of their operations in the US. I know you guys think we Europeans are all just a bunch of commies. Seriously though - I get what you're saying about "if you want to get to the top". People who want to be at the very top of their career probably have to sacrifice all kinds of things to get there.

 

Re the argument that inevitably developed about whether a woman's a better mother if she stays at home full time. My mother went back to work about 3 months after I was born, and supported my father through university. She was a teacher, employee rights weren't what they are now - but she was fortunate in working for a small school which took a very understanding, flexible approach (eg if the childminder couldn't look after me for some reason, I'd be taken into the school where there'd always be someone available to keep an eye on me).

 

I know my mother was often on the receiving end of the "children do better if their mothers stay at home to look after them" argument. Sometimes she'd ask me (later on in life) if I'd rather she'd stayed at home. I never had any clue how to answer that, because as a child I simply adapted to whichever situation I was in...and regarded it as normal.

 

What I would say is that I didn't like my childminder (the woman who looked after me until I was three). She had a vast family of her own, and I have one or two memories of that time that I've carried throughout life. Of generally feeling unwanted and in the way. But that's probably down to the fact that she was a harassed, ill-tempered woman who shouldn't really have been taking on anyone else's kids to look after...but did it because she needed the money.

 

Once we moved away and I was put into nursery, from what I can recall of it I was very happy. Nice nursery staff, other kids to play with, etc. So my view is that the quality of the childcare means everything. I don't believe that caring for children is a magical, mystical thing that you only really understand when you've had children of your own. A good childminder who has an interest in and understanding of child development theory is probably capable of bringing many positive things into the lives of the children in her/his care.

 

Far from being disadvantaged by that, I think a lot of children receive a lot of benefits from being in nurseries (social, stimulation etc) while their parents are at work.

[grogster]

The United States is becoming more family friendly--at least in flush times. Now, all bets are off. In the '09 Depression, people simply want to work (or stay employed)--quality of life be damned.

 

We do have a more family friendly legal environment. The FMLA, for example, gives qualified employees 12 weeks of unpaid leave for health and family reasons. Some courts broadly interpret Title VII as prohibiting sex-plus discrimination.

 

Regardless of the legal environment, however, trade-offs exist. If you want "quality," however defined, be prepared to sacrifice career advancement and income. That's not discrimination; that's life.

 

Get over it.

[Taramere]

Regardless of the legal environment, however, trade-offs exist. If you want "quality," however defined, be prepared to sacrifice career advancement and income. That's not discrimination; that's life.

 

Very true - and it doesn't just apply to people with children to look after. Some people have passions that are unconnected to their work and that take up a lot of time and effort. Maybe a sport or a creative pursuit, travelling or an area of study that isn't connected to what they do for a living.

 

So they settle for less career advancement, more time to do things they love. Assuming that what they do for a living isn't their first love....and for many people it isn't.

[ColorCube]

TBF, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

as a bystander reading this thread I would have to agree with this statement, loveshack isn't a place for someone to come and beat up on others to make yourself feel better and from the 18 pages I have read that seems to be what has happened throughout this thread.

[grogster]

Very true - and it doesn't just apply to people with children to look after. Some people have passions that are unconnected to their work and that take up a lot of time and effort. Maybe a sport or a creative pursuit, travelling or an area of study that isn't connected to what they do for a living.

 

So they settle for less career advancement, more time to do things they love. Assuming that what they do for a living isn't their first love....and for many people it isn't.

 

I suppose, Tara, that some (not you) have a strong passion for public message board posting. The Shack becomes, for certain individuals, a primary career/hobby. But how does one advance here except in number of posts? Once one is an established member you're, well, merely established. That's no way to measure quality.

 

That's why we need poster reviews!

 

I think I'll start a thread with my capsule reviews of select posters. What? Sorry, I have to get back to work.

[Meaplus3]

as a bystander reading this thread I would have to agree with this statement, loveshack isn't a place for someone to come and beat up on others to make yourself feel better and from the 18 pages I have read that seems to be what has happened throughout this thread.

 

I agree with you 100 % here!

 

Mea:)

[blind_otter]

Wow, I get busy with baby for a couple of days and see what happens!

 

If I can handle handi-capped children in a full rage, I think my own child will be less of a challenge, no?

 

It's different with your own kid. After 6 weeks of not sleeping more than 45 minutes straight, and cumulatively sleeping about 4 hours for every 24, you start to lose your mind. Being on call 24/7 has its own unique challenges, and the world looks a lot more desperate when its 4am and you haven't slept. Or if you have a colicky baby that cries 3 hours straight every night for 6 weeks. Yes, it happens. Regardless of the best laid plans. My son did NOT have colic, but he did have a "magic hour" every single night from about 2 weeks until about 8 weeks.

 

I had experience with kids prior to having my own - I have 6 nieces and nephews, 2 of whom have special needs from being born at 27 weeks. But having my own baby was different. It's something you cannot explain, and it sounds cliche - but you CANNOT know until you've carried a baby for 10 lunar months and pushed for 3 hours to bring that baby into the world.

 

Pawning? I think not. We're talking about an experienced nanny, one who has more childcare experience under her belt than your average SAHM.

 

That can be good, and it can be bad. I think, if you do have a nanny, you should first know what YOUR parenting style is - and then interview and search high and low for someone who has one similar to that. Then, watch them close because they might have sugar coated things just to get the job.

 

Just because someone has parenting other kids doesn't make them a better parent to YOUR kid. No matter how many years of experience they have, they are not as invested in your child as you are.

 

On the other hand, I think that labelling working parents as selfish goes too far. I stand by what I said earlier: everything comes with a price, and in the case of working parents the price is losing time with your children that you will never get back.

 

I agree with this 100%. This is what I was trying to say, with my limited time and attention span. Whether you stay at home or work outside the home, you make sacrifices - everything comes with a price.

 

You have never experienced the love at first sight of your newborn baby. You have never experienced having that baby grow inside you and know it depends on you for it's very existence. Because that is basically when that maternal instinct begins.

 

YES THIS! ^

 

I thought I knew what motherhood was like. I was so, so, so, so, SO wrong. Two people were born the day I had my son - he, for the first time. I was reborn. I changed in a fundamental way, one I could not have imagined or planned for or expected, because you can't until you've been through it.

 

I assumed I would go back to work, throughout my entire pregnancy. I really liked my job, overall (except for tax season with 13 hour days and no weekends but that's only 3 months/year), and I really liked my coworkers. It was hard to give that up, but when my son looked into my eyes that first hour, he seemed to say to me "I give myself to you. Please take care of me."

 

I wracked my brain for a while after he was born. Trying to find an answer. Trying to convince myself I could do it all....

 

But I couldn't. I stay with him partly for him, and partly for me. I would be so jealous of any nanny who got to stay with my baby! If I learned anything from my Dad, it was that time is precious. You can't get it back. You should live every moment in grace, and your choices in life should reflect that.

[calazhage]

 

 

 

 

YES THIS! ^

 

I thought I knew what motherhood was like. I was so, so, so, so, SO wrong. Two people were born the day I had my son - he, for the first time. I was reborn. I changed in a fundamental way, one I could not have imagined or planned for or expected, because you can't until you've been through it.

 

It was hard to give that up, but when my son looked into my eyes that first hour, he seemed to say to me "I give myself to you. Please take care of me."

 

But I couldn't. I stay with him partly for him, and partly for me. I would be so jealous of any nanny who got to stay with my baby! If I learned anything from my Dad, it was that time is precious. You can't get it back. You should live every moment in grace, and your choices in life should reflect that.

 

Exactly. Throughout this entire thread one poster seems to be almost robotic, and leaving out all emotion.

 

My sister was the same way. Her life began anew once she had a child. In her words, much of her prior life she thought was so important was rather empty. Once that baby came it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to suggest she leave him with someone else, or have the father stay home while she leaves her own baby behind.

 

And yes, time is precious. Often times what women remember fondly are doing the simple, routine things with the little baby nearby. It is not about spending a bit of "quality time" , or merely fitting a baby into your work schedule. Women are HAPPY to spend all of these moments with their baby, even though at times it is tough, trying, or monotonous. It is also very rewarding/fulfilling. Much more so than bringing home a pay check.

[Trialbyfire]

It's different with your own kid. After 6 weeks of not sleeping more than 45 minutes straight, and cumulatively sleeping about 4 hours for every 24, you start to lose your mind. Being on call 24/7 has its own unique challenges, and the world looks a lot more desperate when its 4am and you haven't slept. Or if you have a colicky baby that cries 3 hours straight every night for 6 weeks. Yes, it happens. Regardless of the best laid plans. My son did NOT have colic, but he did have a "magic hour" every single night from about 2 weeks until about 8 weeks.

 

I had experience with kids prior to having my own - I have 6 nieces and nephews, 2 of whom have special needs from being born at 27 weeks. But having my own baby was different. It's something you cannot explain, and it sounds cliche - but you CANNOT know until you've carried a baby for 10 lunar months and pushed for 3 hours to bring that baby into the world.

I won't disagree that it will be different. On the otherhand, since I'll be using a full-time live-in nanny, she can help me out with many of these issues.

That can be good, and it can be bad. I think, if you do have a nanny, you should first know what YOUR parenting style is - and then interview and search high and low for someone who has one similar to that. Then, watch them close because they might have sugar coated things just to get the job.

 

Just because someone has parenting other kids doesn't make them a better parent to YOUR kid. No matter how many years of experience they have, they are not as invested in your child as you are.

I have a number of friends already employing nannies so I'll be using the same nanny service they do, since they've given nothing but rave reviews. Word of mouth is so much better than trying to find a needle in a haystack.

[Star Gazer]

I won't disagree that it will be different. On the otherhand, since I'll be using a full-time live-in nanny, she can help me out with many of these issues.

 

The nanny will be able to help during the first 6-8 months, when the baby is feeding in the middle of the night?

 

Where do I find me one of those?!

[nittygritty]

The nanny will be able to help during the first 6-8 months, when the baby is feeding in the middle of the night?

 

Where do I find me one of those?!

 

Part-time college students.

[Trialbyfire]

The nanny will be able to help during the first 6-8 months, when the baby is feeding in the middle of the night?

 

Where do I find me one of those?!

It's reliant on whether or not I choose to breastfeed. Once again, personal choice.

 

*waits to be tackled on that issue too*

[Star Gazer]

This thread has caused me to panic a little. I'll have to start a thread about it once I collect my thoughts.

[Star Gazer]

It's reliant on whether or not I choose to breastfeed. Once again, personal choice.

 

Leaving the breastfeeding issue aside, does any part of you... feel... bad (for lack of a better word) at the thought of having a non-parent or non-close family member coming to your child's side each time s/he cries out because you can't be bothered to get out of bed? I understand the nanny taking care of the child for all purposes when you're working or out of the house or whathaveyou, but to me, the very essence of mothering is getting up to tend to a crying child, as much of a pain in the rump that might be.

 

I know if that if I was in bed at night crying, whether at 3 months, 3 years, or even 13, I'd "want my mommy." (Sometimes I still do. )

 

But I'm not a mother and it will be a LONG time before that ever happens, so perhaps I don't really know what I'm talking about.

[Trialbyfire]

Leaving the breastfeeding issue aside, does any part of you... feel... bad (for lack of a better word) at the thought of having a non-parent or non-close family member coming to your child's side each time s/he cries out because you can't be bothered to get out of bed? I understand the nanny taking care of the child for all purposes when you're working or out of the house or whathaveyou, but to me, the very essence of mothering is getting up to tend to a crying child, as much of a pain in the rump that might be.

 

I know if that if I was in bed at night crying, whether at 3 months, 3 years, or even 13, I'd "want my mommy." (Sometimes I still do. )

 

But I'm not a mother and it will be a LONG time before that ever happens, so perhaps I don't really know what I'm talking about.

When this entire thing happens, is when I'm going to make hard decisions. This is something that perturbs me, the guilt leveraging within this thread. SAHMs make their choices in life and believe it's the best. That's great. Other people don't feel the same way. That's also great, albeit not what SAHMs believe. Tough.

 

Each person makes their own choices and lives with it. I rarely feel guilty about anything once the choice is made. Guilt and shame are wasted emotions. Only action and remorse count.

[calazhage]

LOL, yes, but they are no longer decisions that only affect you, they also affect your child.

 

What an odd childhood that would be if some lady(or different ladies over the years) was coming to take care of me, or help me, or tend to me instead of my mother.

 

It would almost seem as though i was unloved, or not to be bothered with, unless it was timely for my mother. Quite sad.

[Star Gazer]

When this entire thing happens, is when I'm going to make hard decisions. This is something that perturbs me, the guilt leveraging within this thread. SAHMs make their choices in life and believe it's the best. That's great. Other people don't feel the same way. That's also great, albeit not what SAHMs believe. Tough.

 

Each person makes their own choices and lives with it. I rarely feel guilty about anything once the choice is made. Guilt and shame are wasted emotions. Only action and remorse count.

 

I'm certainly not trying to make you feel guilty, woman. I worry about these things, how I'll manage to balance it all. In fact, I'm starting to question whether I can do it all (they way I'd want to, without a nanny or other caretaker) and keep my sanity. It scares me, because I don't want to give up anything, and I don't want either to suffer.

 

Also, I don't think there's SAHM on the one hand, or working moms on the other. I think there's an entire continuum, a lot of different rubrics that might work depending on the parents, careers, and children involved.

 

I guess I was only questioning whether - regardless if one is a SAHM or a FT working mom, nanny or not - a "mother" would let someone else (other than the father) get up in the middle of the night to tend to the crying baby. I was focusing on that specific fact pattern only. I just cannot envision a scenario where a woman would let someone else do that. Wouldn't your inherent maternal instincts drive you to want to do it yourself? I'm not sure, I've never been a mother... but I would hope that it would.

[Dumbledore]

Exactly. Throughout this entire thread one poster seems to be almost robotic, and leaving out all emotion.

Agreed.

My sister was the same way. Her life began anew once she had a child.

There is always hope.

 

What perturbs me is the rampant snobbery on this thread. Certain posters demand details during the discussion (or dare I say, lecture), and then immediately dispense a blast of judgemental, detached vitriol in return. For added effect, it's often shrouded in misdirection, and unsophisticated attempts at eliciting sympathy. This brand of snobbery thrives on personalising the issues, and asserting a misguided sense of narcissistic superiority.

 

This snobbish disposition of entitlement breeds an attitude of always (and I mean always) wanting one's cake and eating it too. It's not enough to rush to judgement on which of us merely have "jobs," and which of us are blessed with "careers." Some posters simply cannot accept any point of view other than their own, and are driven to discredit any challenge to their veneer of superiority. When an ego gets out of control, it needs constant feeding.

[calazhage]

 

I guess I was only questioning whether - regardless if one is a SAHM or a FT working mom, nanny or not - a "mother" would let someone else (other than the father) get up in the middle of the night to tend to the crying baby. I was focusing on that specific fact pattern only. I just cannot envision a scenario where a woman would let someone else do that. Wouldn't your inherent maternal instincts drive you to want to do it yourself? I'm not sure, I've never been a mother... but I would hope that it would.

 

Exactly.. Perhaps the child should be moved to a different location altogether so as to not disrupt the life of this career woman? I mean she will work during the days, can't be bothered with it at night.. Maybe the child should live somewhere else altogether with paid help, and this career mom can schedule an hour or 2 to play with it, and give it "positive reinforcement" ?

[Star Gazer]

Well, I don't know. I'm a little neurotic when it comes to caretaking and never think anyone can do things like that as well as I can. I mean, I can barely handle leaving my dog with my mother when necessary. I don't think even my own mother can do right by my DOG.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm certainly not trying to make you feel guilty, woman. I worry about these things, how I'll manage to balance it all. In fact, I'm starting to question whether I can do it all (they way I'd want to, without a nanny or other caretaker) and keep my sanity. It scares me, because I don't want to give up anything, and I don't want either to suffer.

 

Also, I don't think there's SAHM on the one hand, or working moms on the other. I think there's an entire continuum, a lot of different rubrics that might work depending on the parents, careers, and children involved.

 

I guess I was only questioning whether - regardless if one is a SAHM or a FT working mom, nanny or not - a "mother" would let someone else (other than the father) get up in the middle of the night to tend to the crying baby. I was focusing on that specific fact pattern only. I just cannot envision a scenario where a woman would let someone else do that. Wouldn't your inherent maternal instincts drive you to want to do it yourself? I'm not sure, I've never been a mother... but I would hope that it would.

Women have been working and caregiving for a few decades now. I have friends who are like this, who give full effort on both sides. Whether or not I can, remains to be seen. But...I have the choice and love it.

 

As for whether or not I would get up, it depends on the situation. Can't say I will, can't say I won't.

 

Think about it this way. If fathers can do it, why not mothers?

 

*waits for all the ooooo...what a horrible mother you're going to make...remarks*

[Star Gazer]

Women have been working and caregiving for a few decades now. I have friends who are like this, who give full effort on both sides. Whether or not I can, remains to be seen. But...I have the choice and love it.

 

Oh, I know that... And remember, my mom was a working mother. So I know it's possible. But I also know how hard it can be, just watching her.

 

Think about it this way. If fathers can do it, why not mothers?

 

I don't know what you mean there?