Career VS Family

[Trialbyfire]

its about working out what is right for you as a couple and taking it from there. If both parents are on the same page regarding this issue then thats an excellent start IMO.

Totally!!!

[marlena]

Perfect career to raise kids, IMO!

 

 

Yes, it is. I am a teacher, too. Worked and had plenty of time for my daughter, too!

 

She gave up work to have me and my brother and then went back when my brother was 3.

 

 

Perfect. This is what I would tell all young mothers to do if they can.

[blind_otter]

Will you also denigrate them in any discussion about children, and tell them that they're not qualified to comment?

 

I used to get all pissy with my older sisters when they talked about parenting and acted like it was some special club. I remember taking my Infant Psych class in college and spouting off what I had learned in class that day.

 

Then I actually became a parent. And I realized that there are some things you really don't know until you've actually done it. I mean, you can talk theory, or statistics. But it's just not the same. I guess I feel more camaraderie with people who have been in the trenches, so to speak.

 

One of the things I wanted when I interviewed pediatricians was that the ped was a parent him/herself.

 

I don't perceive anything I do for anyone as sacrifice. It was my choice to do it. If the other person doesn't appreciate it, then I stop doing it.

....

Having said that, if a child is raised properly, they can appreciate what their parents have done for them, not in a sacrificial or martyrs way, but in appreciation of effort put into them.

 

Children aren't necessarily the most appreciative in the most immediate sense. I never really appreciated my mother for carrying me in her belly and giving birth to me. Until I had my son. How could I know what it was like? In the abstract, sure I was glad. But I didn't know the reality of what she did for me.

 

And babies damn sure can't express appreciation. I mean, they smile and laugh, sure - but not until they are a few weeks old. Initially it's all slave labor. But when you do get a smile, even if its gas, man that is a golden moment.

 

In any event, I also agree that just because you make sacrifices does not mean you have to lord them over anyone. I have been the beneficiary of many sacrifices made by my parents. And I never realized that they even MADE those sacrifices, until I was well into adulthood. They never made any mention of it.

[Taramere]

I used to get all pissy with my older sisters when they talked about parenting and acted like it was some special club. I remember taking my Infant Psych class in college and spouting off what I had learned in class that day.

 

I can understand you getting pissy with members of your family if they're not taking you seriously. If you're working with parents and children for a living, you don't get pissy when people say "are you a parent? No, then how do you know what you're talking about???" There just isn't room for getting pissy about that kind of thing when you're doing a job. It would be pointless and unprofessional. If people don't think you have credibility because of that, then it's something that you just have to work around. To earn respect, rather than expecting that people will simply give it to you because you've got a psychology based degree.

 

Nobody has the monopoly on knowledge. Not parents and not child care professionals. Or even people who are both.

 

Say you have a woman who finds adults hard to deal with - but is great with babies, and keeps having more of them. Being a SAHM will seem like an ideal solution. She doesn't have to go out and deal with difficult social or work situations on a regular basis. Then her children become teens who are challenging her with their growing experience of and perceptions about the outside world. They're becoming their own people who are developing independent views and questioning everything she believes in. Possibly even becoming quite like the kind of adults she stayed at home to avoid.

 

Being a good mum suddenly isn't enough any more. She needs to be an assertive, competent adult in order to deal with adolescents who are sometimes quite volatile...and who might also seek to undermine her time and time again. Maybe if they're bright and ambitious adolescents, they even challenge her for her choices in being a SAHM. What could be more frustrating and angering?

 

Complaining about it to other mothers who've found themselves in the same situation might provide temporary relief, but she probably needs mor detached, constructive support to help her develop methods of keeping her cool and projecting a calm, assertive style in the face of teenage behaviour that can be quite intimidating at times.

 

I'll admit, I have very little idea as to how to change a nappy. I can remember trying to change my niece and nephew's nappies and making a right pig's ear of it each time. On the other hand, in the fairly distant past I had to manage residential units containing up to 8 unruly teenagers (all of them from different families). I'd often do shifts with people who were parents.

 

Some of them were great...others were absolutely hopeless. They seriously believed that their experience as parents would be sufficient preparation for the job. They were dismissive of the training that qualified workers brought to the job. "Ummm...I'm a parent, you're not. I think I'm better equipped to deal with this situation." "Okay then. If you insist. In you go. Oh dear...."

 

Then I actually became a parent. And I realized that there are some things you really don't know until you've actually done it. I mean, you can talk theory, or statistics. But it's just not the same. I guess I feel more camaraderie with people who have been in the trenches, so to speak.

 

I have absolutely no doubt...and yes, I understand there'd be a camaraderie thing.

 

One of the things I wanted when I interviewed pediatricians was that the ped was a parent him/herself.

 

What was your main reason?

[amaysngrace]

Maybe if they're bright and ambitious adolescents, they even challenge her for her choices in being a SAHM. What could be more frustrating and angering?

 

I don't know about other people's parenting style but my children and I discussed this two years back when I was thinking of going to work.

 

I treat my children like little people. I let them in on things when it will have an impact on them too. I respect them that way.

 

I explained the pros and cons of mom working. Mostly the pros were financial. That is all.

 

They both agreed that they wanted me home. To be honest I'd rather be home too. I can work whenever and they are only children once.

 

So we are all on the same page here. I don't see this as being a problem for my mouthy teenagers. If it becomes one I won't get angry with them. I'll hear them out. And then I will say my mind. And then hear them out again. Etc.

[blind_otter]

 

What was your main reason?

 

In terms of the ped, I think it's easy to sit back and tell people what they should be doing, but sometimes it is nice to get practical, personal advice that comes from experience.

 

Mostly, I go to other experienced mothers for advice first. There is an online community of attachment parenting moms that I frequent and I get a lot of good info there, from moms who research tirelessly and who have gone through similar issues with 2, 3, 5 kids. I also go to La Leche League, a longstanding support group for breastfeeding mothers, to get practical advice about any breastfeeding issues I have (and believe me, there can be lots of problems with breastfeeding. It's definitely not instinctual or intuitive - it's a learned process like most things).

[calazhage]

Let's say you want to, or you do own a night club. Whom are you going to seek VALUABLE advice from? Another club owner, or someone who read a book about it, who just claims "I would be an excellent club owner!"

 

The book reader would just sound like a complete idiot. They might have it all planned out. "I would take out this loan, hire a good manager, offer this promotion, and I would still have time to keep my full time job, earning double the income!"

 

But in the above example, they leave out the human side. All of the daily fires that need to be put out, and the true amount of time involved. They are EXTREMELY short sighted as they are trying to push their little agenda of trying to have 2 incomes, while also owning a night club.

 

The same can be applied to this thread. If you do not have children, you know little about it. If you went to bars, you know little about owning one. If you baby sat, you know little about having your own children.

[Taramere]

Let's say you want to, or you do own a night club. Whom are you going to seek VALUABLE advice from? Another club owner, or someone who read a book about it, who just claims "I would be an excellent club owner!"

 

It's not a great analogy, for all kinds of reasons. Successful parents don't mind giving potential parents tips on parenting. They've nothing to lose from it, after all. A successful club owner, on the other hand, would be unlikely to give away the secrets of his success to a prospective competitor.

 

That aside....in the situation you described, I'd persuade the club owner to give me a job. From inside, I'd observe what techniques of club management worked for him, and what didn't. I'd learn from his mistakes and successes, while getting paid for the experience I obtained. I would also use the book....a variety of books, in fact, and observe theory being put into practice. Again, to get a better flavour of what worked and what didn't. When I was promoted to club manager, I'd put theory into practice myself.

 

When I finally opened my own club, I'd probably be more realistic and better informed than either the person who relied on tips from other club owners, or the one who read it all in a book. Doesn't guarantee success, but it seems to me to be the best way of preparing. If you take the "advice from either/or but not both" approach, you're limiting your learning opportunities. Why do that? If it's just about invalidating one of the sources of advice, then fair enough....but I don't really see the practical benefits in doing that.

[jasminetea]

You "believe"? Do you have any evidence? You sound like a Scientologist.

 

No (and no, i'm not a Scientologist, although I'm interested in your over reaction to something fairly innocuous), that's why I said I believe; not 'I know and here are my reasons why'. It's a gut feeling that is based on my own experiences - that my physical and mental state is influenced by many things, not least environment. It's not a huge stretch for me to believe that the environment I had at my most formative time of life would have had an impact on me not just physically, but mentally and emotionally too.

 

Then how do you explain a family of 4 children, all close in age, who are raised the same way by the same parents under the same socioeconomic conditions, that has only ONE child with mental illness?

I didn't say that I believed parenting was the only influence in someone's development of mental health issues.

 

I hope that helps and you calm down a little, nothing I said was a direct attack on you

[calazhage]

Tara, obviously you would not ask a club owner right down the street from you that is in competition with you. lol.

 

But in business you would be surprised how much information people share. No matter what your business. Some of your best friends might be club owners in different states.

 

The point is, you would be getting information from a club owner, either by working for him, or asking him. A club owner, or prospectove club owner would not be getting VALUABLE advice from someone whom owns nothing.

 

A prospective parent gets advice from a real parent. A real parent gets advice from another real parent. None of the above get advice from a chick who read a book and is not a parent.

[Trialbyfire]

You can't compare businesses, like they're exactly the same. There maybe similarities but demographics and appeal aren't universal.

 

The same holds true with parenting. Each person's parenting style will be reliant on personalities of both the parent and the child. In a situation where a woman chooses to retain her career, this must be factored into the equation.

 

Having said all that, parenting isn't rocket science. For some, it might be the most challenging job they've ever done. For others, maybe not. All individuals aren't identical.

[Touche]

To address the parent/expert debate. As stated earlier, ideally garnering info from BOTH would be great.

 

What I was saying though is if I could only choose ONE it would absolutely be hands down the parent.

 

In the example you gave, Tara apparently the parent was clueless in handling the 8 unruly teenagers....not enough info there. Did she ever raise teens? Or were kids still small?

 

Also, no way would I go to ANY parent for advice. As you stated no one has a monopoly on acknowledge..you have to really look at the source.

 

But again, using the unruly teen as an example, I'd go to a parent who has successfully raised an adult who was once an unruly teen before I'd go to the expert who took care of a bunch of them as part of their day job...after they punch out they go home and don't have to deal with it again until they return to work. Different ballgame entirely, if you ask me.

 

But yes, given the choice I'd consult with BOTH however the parent's advice would always carry more weight with me personally. No contest there.

 

Also, to echo BO, I too only wanted a pediatrician who had kids themselves. I just think they'd understand my concerns a little better. They'd take them more to heart rather than dismissing them. Even if the issue at hand is nothing serious and WARRANTS dismissal, I would think the "bedside manner" of a parent would be vastly different from a pediatrician who wasn't themselves a parent.

 

Maybe that's a huge generalization but that was/is my thinking in choosing a pediatrician. It's what I personally (rightly or wrongly) was more comfortable with. So I can completely understand BO's position on that.

[Touche]

To address the parent/expert debate. As stated earlier, ideally garnering info from BOTH would be great.

 

What I was saying though is if I could only choose ONE it would absolutely be hands down the parent.

 

In the example you gave, Tara apparently the parent was clueless in handling the 8 unruly teenagers....not enough info there. Did she ever raise teens? Or were her kids still small?

 

Also, no way would I go to just ANY parent for advice. As you stated no one has a monopoly on acknowledge..you have to really look at the source though.

 

But again, using the unruly teen as an example, I'd go to a parent who has successfully raised an adult who was once an unruly teen before I'd go to the expert who took care of a bunch of them as part of their day job and was never a parent her/himself...after they punch out they go home and don't have to deal with it again until they return to work. Different ballgame entirely, if you ask me.

 

But yes, given the choice I'd consult with BOTH however the parent's advice would always carry more weight with me personally. No contest there.

 

Also, to echo BO, I too only wanted a pediatrician who had kids themselves. I just think they'd understand my concerns a little better. They'd take them more to heart rather than dismissing them. Even if the issue at hand is nothing serious and WARRANTS dismissal, I would think the "bedside manner" of a parent would be vastly different from a pediatrician who wasn't themself a parent.

 

Maybe that's a huge generalization but that was/is my thinking in choosing a pediatrician. It's what I personally (rightly or wrongly) was more comfortable with. So I can completely understand BO's position on that.

[Touche]

Oops, sorry about the double post guys. My computer is acting funky today..or it's LS not sure which.

[Taramere]

In the example you gave, Tara apparently the parent was clueless in handling the 8 unruly teenagers....not enough info there. Did she ever raise teens? Or were kids still small?

 

Well, the problems there were really down to her expectations of the job I think. She had a very nurturing personality - and that aspect of her was lovely.

 

The dicey parts happened when they became very confrontational. She had several children of varying ages. The oldest in their early teens - and she was having a lot of problems with one in particular. Her way of handling conflict was to lose her temper and start screaming...which is downright dangerous in the kind of situation we were working in. It's liable to get you seriously hurt (bearing in mind there's no security back up).

 

Another difficulty was that as part of bonding with the children (and, I'd say, manipulating them into behaving for her) she would make a lot of personal disclosures. These would be thrown back in her face during confrontational moments, which would understandably increase her agitation.

 

Lots of neediness too. Neediness in respect of wanting the kids to like her and care about her personal sh*t, asking me for reassurance as to whether she was good at the job, asking me to confirm whether she was better at the job than I was ("I've got kids after all..."). Needing debriefing when children were verbally abusive to her...etc etc.

 

I suppose it's because of my recollections of that that I'm contributing a lot to this thread. On the one hand, this lady I worked with was out to devalue my contribution on the basis that I wasn't a parent. On the other hand, the extent to which she was leaning on me emotionally, and relying on me to defuse highly confrontational situations, seemed inconsistent with her view that she was better equipped to deal with difficult adolescents than I was.

 

I won't hesitate to say that the people I learned the most from in that job were parents. Then again, all the older people who worked there were parents. They were experienced as parents, and they were also experienced in life generally - and in doing that job. I can fully understand why someone would say "well, I'd rather get advice from someone who has experience in all those areas."

 

What I've found in practice is that people will tend to prefer to get advisers they like and feel comfortable with. If they're lucky, they'll find an adviser who has experience in all the areas they want them to have experience in - and who they have a good working rapport with. Having parenthood in common can be a bonding thing initially - but sometimes problems develop relating to competitiveness. People imposing their own experiences and standards on others ("I have 3 kids of my own, and my house is never as untidy as that"...."that child should be speaking by now. Mine was talking at....") without taking into account the favourable circumstances they might benefit from.

[sb129]

That was a really good and interesting example Tara.

Must have been really frustrating for you at times.

Having parenthood in common can be a bonding thing initially - but sometimes problems develop relating to competitiveness. People imposing their own experiences and standards on others ("I have 3 kids of my own, and my house is never as untidy as that"...."that child should be speaking by now. Mine was talking at....") without taking into account the favourable circumstances they might benefit from.

 

I agree with this- as with many things there is a broad spectrum of parenting styles, many have cultural differences to take into account, so there can't be ONE right way.

[Touche]

I agree SB. Of course there isn't one right way. What works for one parent won't work for another.

 

Tara, wow..poor you. That women sounded ill-equipped to handle the job. I mean just because she's a parent surely doesn't mean she can respond appropriately. I agree.

 

Those kids sound like they had special needs and challenges. Perhaps she'd never worked with that kind of child?

 

In any case, I wonder how she handled her OWN teen. The first rule of thumb when a teen gets confrontational is to maintain your authority and not lose your cool. And you can never worry about whether they're going to like you or not.

 

Whether these kids were "special cases" or not wouldn't matter in that regard. That's just basic "parenting 101" when it comes to all kids but especially teens.

 

And yes, interesting example but a bit out of the norm I'd say.

 

I'm just talking about garden-variety things that come up with kids at certain stages.

 

And again I'd consider the source. I'd never be interested in talking to a parent who was in a competition with me and playing some game of one-upmanship.

 

But from my experience most parents aren't like this when you go to them for advice. They genuinely want to help and share what they know from first hand experience.

[Trialbyfire]

I mean just because she's a parent surely doesn't mean she can respond appropriately.

I'm bolding this for emphasis. Being a parent, doesn't make anyone omnipotent when it comes to handling different children, different circumstances and the abilities of different people within a situation of career or SAHM.

[Touche]

I'm bolding this for emphasis. Being a parent, doesn't make anyone omnipotent when it comes to handling different children, different circumstances and the abilities of different people within a situation of career or SAHM.

 

I've never said otherwise.

 

I've only ever said what was right for OUR family.

 

But did I also say I judge those who don't have to work and do say anyway at the expense of their kids? Sure I did. It's my right. One can agree with me or not. It's ok.

[Trialbyfire]

I've never said otherwise.

 

I've only ever said what was right for OUR family.

 

But did I also say I judge those who don't have to work and do say anyway at the expense of their kids? Sure I did. It's my right. One can agree with me or not. It's ok.

As it's my right to judge martyr style SAHMs who believe the rest of the world should bear the same cross...

[sb129]

I am somewhere in the middle.

No judgement here- whatever works for you.

[Touche]

As it's my right to judge martyr style SAHMs who believe the rest of the world should bear the same cross...

 

"Bear the same cross?":rolleyes:

 

Whatevuh!

 

But yeah, I get that you're entitled to believe what you want. Who is stopping you?

[Trialbyfire]

"Bear the same cross?":rolleyes:

 

Whatevuh!

 

But yeah, I get that you're entitled to believe what you want. Who is stopping you?

Absolutely no one can stop me from believing what I do believe, which is that everyone has the right to do what works for them v. having tunnel vision.

 

It's like saying there's only one way to handle parenting and it's my way or the highway. My way is based on stereotypical gender roles where the woman MUST give up her career because everyone has the same capabilities as I have, regardless of the FACT that some people can handle more than others...

[sb129]

Oh for heavens sake you two.

 

After 25 pages of it, can you agree to disagree and leave it there please?

[Touche]

Oh for heavens sake you two.

 

After 25 pages of it, can you agree to disagree and leave it there please?

 

I know. It's ridiculous at this point. My point about the whole thing is being misconstrued anyway.

 

Yes, let's just agree to disagree, k? I don't care what other people do or don't do with their kids anyway. It's not my business. We're just here to debate and express our opinions on the matter. We've done that. I'm not interested in changing anyone's mind.

 

And for me, it isn't the FACT of some people "handling more" than others...it's the FACT that I think one way is healthier for the child. It's just that simple.

 

I get that you don't see it the way I do. And that's really fine.