Loving God a salvation issue?

[chris250]

For those who believe that loving God is a requirement in order to enter heaven why do you believe that?

 

How can a person genuinely love God if they are scared into loving Him? Is it really in the mind of God to scare His kids into doing things His way? If so then how does that make Him different than a dictator?

 

I do not believe you have to love God to go to heaven. I believe you can curse God all the days of your life and still go to heaven. The entrance into heaven is not a reward for clean living. It's a gift. Everyone is going to make it.

 

As a matter of fact there are many times when I curse God in anger. I think it is good therapy to actually cuss God out when you are angry. He's big enough to handle it. I wish psychologists would recommend this kind of therapy.

 

Besides if loving God is required for salvation then wouldn't that be a works salvation? I think true freedom can only come when I'm free NOT to love God and still be loved & accepted by Him into His heaven. To love God out of fear of punishment is bondage.

[Geishawhelk]

THis is sad.

Christians disputing and arguing the fine details amongst themselves.

Do we really need another thread on "My idea of God is better than your idea of God, so there!"....?

 

Personally, I would that you harbour your beliefs, hold them close to your heart, love God with all your strength, all your might and all your soul and do his Good deeds as you know you should.

Be wary of your own Grace, and Live in Christ.

 

I am Buddhist, but it pains me to see this kind of tit-for-tat being played here.

 

Call a halt guys, and live in peace.

[chris250]

This is a spirituality and religious thread so I have every right to be open about my beliefs. I don't believe in political correctness.

 

We have freedom of religion and freedom of expression. As long as I'm not a threat to society I'm free to express my religious beliefs like everybody else.

 

So no I'm not going to keep my beliefs private especially when nobody is forced to come to the religious section of LS and read the threads.

[Federica]

Chris, there is a difference between Political Correctness, and picking an arguement, for the sake of it.

You have opened various threads, making several assertive statements, most of which have been hotly contradicted by most other Christian fellows in this forum.

You are merely arguing for the sake of an arguement.

If you wish to start a debate, send PMs.

But issues of this kind are repetitive, end up being between a select few members of the forum - which is not permitted - and go back and forth with no discernible advantage to either side, as it were.

By all means start threads.

But if it descends into a mere ping-pong match, don't be surprised if I simply come in and deal with matters accordingly.

 

Thanks.

[quankanne]

For those who believe that loving God is a requirement in order to enter heaven why do you believe that?

 

so the whole Golden Rule preached by Jesus was a bit of nonsense, eh? "Love God, and love one another."

[Eve]

Hi Chris, just wondering whether you believe that Satan is real? .. this is usually the true absolute Christian marker of faith, experience, acknowledgement, principle. I am not trying to catch you out by asking this, ok?. Regards, Eve xx

[chris250]

Yeah I believe Satan is real. I believe his work is to kill, steal & destroy. I also believe that his work was defeated when Jesus died on the cross. The devil has been put out of business.

 

Not only that but even the devil himself has been reconciled to God. Every knee will bow & every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This includes Satan and all the fallen angels. They too are redeemed along with the entire human race.

[quankanne]

whoa, buddy ~ evil still exists, because Satan CANNOT reconcile himself to God's plan for eternal salvation for mankind. His fall was because of his pride to acknowledge God's love for such a clumsy creature as man.

 

yes, Jesus scored everlasting life for us with his sacrifice on the cross, but unfortunately, it hasn't stopped Satan from trying to steal souls away from God.

[OpenBook]

Yeah I believe Satan is real. I believe his work is to kill, steal & destroy. I also believe that his work was defeated when Jesus died on the cross. The devil has been put out of business.

 

Not only that but even the devil himself has been reconciled to God. Every knee will bow & every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This includes Satan and all the fallen angels. They too are redeemed along with the entire human race.

 

That's all I can say to this - just,

[Eve]

Chris, do you attend Church or is your faith something which you are developing alongside your private life experiences? I ask this because even to someone like myself who has only read the Bible a couple of times (and cant really remember passages outright) I must comment that your belief has no bearing on what it written Scripturally. I do believe that a person can be baptised by fire .. meaning that experiences can fashion their faith to a large extent. Even within such a perspective I cannot see how you could have come to such conclusions regarding satans place in this system. In fact your wording is remarkably like his in many respects..Chris, it is good that you are searching but be careful not to seperate yourself too greatly from others. Especially those who are trying to find and sustain faith. From what you have written I would say that you are young in your faith and what you are experiencing is quite simply a test.

[theBrokenMuse]

whoa, buddy ~ evil still exists, because Satan CANNOT reconcile himself to God's plan for eternal salvation for mankind. His fall was because of his pride to acknowledge God's love for such a clumsy creature

 

This is from milton's 'Paradise Lost' rather than the Bible if my memory serves me correctly.

[Tarantula]

A person who loves God as wants to go to heaven,does not love Him really.

 

 

 

God bless!

[Tarantula]

I Do Love God as i Love Him. But I do not think of going to heaven because of that .

 

 

 

God bless!

[chris250]

I think it's also rather arrogant that I get to decide where I spend my eternity. I'm not God. The only control I have is over my earthly life. I'm responsible for my actions in the here & now. My actions only have earthly consequences. What happens after I die is in God's hands. It's his heaven and he has the final say on whether or not I should be allowed in not me.

 

For example if I choose to steal then the consequence is that I will likely pay a 50,000$ fine and be thrown in jail for several years. God won't get me for stealing but the cops will. So I do believe in the law of reaping and sowing but that has nothing do with our eternal destiny.

 

God has already taken care of our eternal destiny which is in heaven but we can choose to make a miserable hell for ourselves in this life if we want to.

 

I can live a selfish life for the rest of my life but the consequence is that people aren't going to want to have anything to do with me. Nevertheless I'm still good to go to heaven like everyone else. We all get the same reward in the end.

 

If I choose not to pay my taxes it's the IRS that I will have to answer to NOT God. If I cheat on my wife I will likely lose my marriage but not my salvation. Even if it were possible to lose my salvation it would be much harder to lose than losing my marriage.

 

I don't see the fear of hell being an effective way to motivate the world to stop sinning anyway. We already have state and federal laws to help keep order in society. That's a more powerful motivation to not steal and not kill people.

 

So even though everyone is saved it still does make a difference how I live my life if I want to experience joy & peace and attract other people to me.

 

To answer the question. No I do not attend church regularly. I read the bible on my own and listen to radio broadcasts on the internet, etc. Whether or not a person attends church is irrelevant as far as his relationship with God.

[Eve]

Ok, so what do you actuallly do as one who believes in Universalism? Are there any particular groups which universalists support that I should know about? Are the prayers any different? What of the meetings, what is different about the meetings for those who choose to go to meetings at a universalist Church? Or have I got this wrong - is universalism a theoretical base and so there is not a Church fellowship as such? Regards,Eve xx

[chris250]

I just don't understand why God would require me to love him as a condition to going to heaven. Why does God need anything from me? Isn't He self sufficient.

 

The great thing about universalism is that I can totally harden my heart towards God and hate Him all the days of my earthly life and still be welcomed to heaven in the end.

 

God is the only one capable of having a one sided relationship with someone. Humans on the other hand are too needy and we need people to love us in return. So I think it's rather insulting to compare God to a human personality.

 

For human relationships a 2 way street is necessary for those relationships to work. But a relationship with God requires no work on man's part. God's grace can be defined as one way love.

 

I just need to know that I have the freedom to reject God's love all of my life and still end up in the same heaven with everyone else. The only way I can be free to love God with all my heart is to have the freedom NOT to love Him without the fear of punishment.

 

I'm more inclined to love God with the mindset that I'm free to hate God and still be accepted by Him in the end than under the mindset that I must love Him in order to avoid the fires of hell.

 

I have to wonder how many christians are just waiting to commit heinous sins if they became convinced that there is no hell and that everybody's going to heaven. Why? because the most common question I get is "so does that mean I can do whatever I want?"

 

Why else ask that question unless you're just waiting to go on a mass killing spree as soon as I am able to prove to you that nobody's going to hell?

[georgehutton]

I remember hearing something in some bible class I was in, could have been catholic but I'm sure. Anyways, it was the theory of the "Fundamental Option." That is, when we die, we truly and fully experience God's love, and we have the option to respond with love, and enter heaven or blink out forever. In that moment, you can feel his love free from any earthly or mental filters that limits us humans, and make your decision free from any circumstance or pressure. If you say "Yes," your in. If not, later days.

 

And the whole purpose of life is to prepare us for that choice. A bunch of small exposures to God's Love, to which we can say yes, or no.

 

The choice is always ours.

[chris250]

I truly believe that everyone will respond positively to God's unconditional love on the other side of the grave because there are no more worldly influences or temptations. There will be no veil covering our eyes.

 

I don't believe anyone willfully refuses the love of God. As long as we are living in our fleshly bodies our minds will easily be subjected to deception and temptation from the world system. But even Hitler received God's love when he passed over to the other side because he saw God's love in all its fullness.

 

Everyone wants to be loved unconditionally. It's a spiritual need. Why would anyone reject it once they've gotten the full revelation of it? That's like rejecting the air that you breathe. You can't do it.

 

Phillipians 2:9-11 says that sooner or later every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

 

This cannot be talking about a lip service confession or a forced confession because neither type of confession brings glory to God. Jesus made it clear that only a confession and worship from the heart will glorify God instead of a lip service confession.

 

Can a person confess Jesus is Lord in a way that glorifies God the Father without being saved? I doubt it. God sees the heart. So if the confession is only coming out of fear or duress then it would not glorify Him. So therefore the above passage proves that everyone will confess from their heart. Sounds like universal repentance to me.

 

A person may reject God's love in this life as a result of blindness or deception. Why do you think Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us? because those people who would persecute us and use us obviously don't know what they are doing.

 

They are walking in darkness. They are blind. You can only feel sorry for people like that who have been dooped into thinking that taking advantage of others is going to make them happy.

 

Now if Jesus asks us to feel sorry for our enemies and love them then how much more is God going to do the same? Does God hold Himself to a lower standard of treating our enemies than what He asks us to?

 

Doesn't God demonstrate His love by His example and actions and not just by a verbal commandment to us to love our enemies? As a matter of fact how could we love our enemies if God Himself wasn't treating our enemies with kindness but instead kills them and throws them into hell at the end of time?

 

Just something to think about. If hell is real and it's eternal torment then don't you think that would allow for the POSSIBILITY for man's heart to be kinder than God's heart? If you believe in hell then you would have to consider the possibility that there is at least one human being on this planet whose heart is kinder than God's heart.

[disgracian]

And the whole purpose of life is to prepare us for that choice. A bunch of small exposures to God's Love, to which we can say yes, or no.

That view kind of assumes that we live long enough to learn a few lessons along the way and be ready for that choice. Not everybody makes it to adulthood, or even childhood.

 

Something to think about before trying to assign a special purpose to things that most likely simply are.

 

Cheers,

D

[chris250]

That view kind of assumes that we live long enough to learn a few lessons along the way and be ready for that choice. Not everybody makes it to adulthood, or even childhood.

 

Something to think about before trying to assign a special purpose to things that most likely simply are.

 

Cheers,

D

 

I agree. This reminds me of how much damage the doctrine of hell has caused in our society. Earlier this year there was a woman who drowned her children because she didn't want them to grow old enough to reject Christ and go to hell.

 

The poor lady fell under the delusion that if her child lived long enough there would be a possibility that her child would choose to go to hell so she figured she had to drown them while they were still too young to decide.

 

Most churches who believe in hell also teach an age of accountability for babies who die. That is those who die before the age of accountability are automatically granted entrance into heaven. If this is true then it would have been a blessing if our parents murdered us while we were babies right?

 

The age of accountability is not found in the bible and it would not even be necessary to teach that. Why not just get rid of the doctrine of hell altogether since it has led to mothers murdering their babies before they are old enough to "go to hell?"

 

These christian leaders who preach hell are very dangerous people. They are not only hurting themselves. They are hurting the rest of society. They are poisoning the minds of children before they get old enough to think critically about this issue.

 

I would go so far to say that it's child abuse to teach your child that they are born in sin and automatically on the road to hell unless they do something in this life to prevent that. That is the worst form of child abuse.

 

This is just one of many reasons why I as a christian universalist do NOT want the bible or any other religious literature taught in public schools. Evangelicals are fighting to get the bible back in public school cirriculum.

 

I don't take this stuff lightly. I don't want any teacher in the public schools indoctrinating my children with hellfire and brimestone lectures. I don't want them to be exposed to that "born in sin" teaching. It's so gross.

[disgracian]

Chris, forgive me if you have already answered this question, but given the meaning of universalism, why do you call yourself a Christian Universalist and not just a Universalist?

 

Cheers,

D.

[chris250]

Chris, forgive me if you have already answered this question, but given the meaning of universalism, why do you call yourself a Christian Universalist and not just a Universalist?

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Because I just happen to believe that Jesus is the Son of God & the Savior of the world

 

I happen to believe in the virgin birth, death, burial & resurrection of Christ. I happen to believe in the God of the bible. My understanding is that the God of the bible has succeeded in His mission to redeem all of humanity.

 

However I also believe translations are not infallible. All we have are copies of copies of copies of the bible in our hands today. Men have translated the bible to suit their needs.

 

There's a lot of things I don't know or understand about the old testament or even the book of revelation. But I get the general theme in the new testament that God is love. I see more of a loving God than an angry God.

 

I know that not all universalists are christians, which is ok. To me a universalist is anyone who believes that we're all equal and one with God. It does not really matter what brand of religion one subscribes to.

 

Some universalists do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God or that He was born of a virgin. That's not important.

 

I just happen to believe that Jesus is the one true and living God. I believe in the creator of the heavens and the earth.