How Do I *Know* If I Want To Reconcile?

[Focus_On_The_Process]

OK so as I mentioned I've been backing off and giving her space. In that context, I've started to wonder if I should just let this be permanent. I offered to stay away this weekend (before I realized, really just during this week's introspection, the huge error of all my being away). And I've agreed to arrange my schedule to be back home for two windows in January when she asked if she could just "get away." Plan was for her to visit her father.

 

Without getting into too much detail, I'm now certain that she'll actually be paying a visit to a way old (it's been 20 years) OM. I suggested that she get on Facebook when she was a little down after our last move; I know that they reconnected there.

 

So.

 

>> Should I confront, intercede, try to stop, not "enable?"

 

>> Or should I just let this happen, and maybe gather some evidence along the way?

 

I'm disappointed but relatively level about this, I think.

 

I don't know if I trust my responses right now, but I'm leaning toward the latter. I deserve it; some masochistic part of me wants to feel what she felt, walk that road. And it would be good to even things out if the big D is inevitable. I don't want to make it adversarial but I'm not sure that she's in the same place.

 

The big argument for the former is the kids... Damnit the kids. Breaks my heart to think of anyone hurting them. There's that part of me do anything lay down and die eat **** for the rest of my life just to pave the way for them... Likely deluded, but I feel it. I do.

 

>> Are there other options?

 

Additional detail, if it helps. I'm not sure that my wife is even stable right now. After our move, she got a little down, then way down. The words "If not for the kids sometimes I think I might off myself" passed her lips, twice. She says it wasn't a threat. But this was right after David Foster Wallace killed himself and I freaked out. She got on meds, fast, and that helped just to stabilize. I dumped out of everything that I could and stayed home, until I started to think that I might be smothering her. Since then she's been seeing a psychiatrist for the meds, a counselor for general self examination etc., and attending ACOA for the first time in her life. Apparently she's now officially diagnosed as depressed, and this was her second "major depressive episode." I didn't even realize that there had been a first?! Further, if you have one, then another... Odds of a third are very high. Meds are likely to be a part of her long term future. All this just from bits and pieces that she dropped to me; I'm still learning everything's been very day to day.

 

Ah but anyway I guess this is a second argument for the former; is it really even her? Am I an ******* if I walk away when she's in a place like this? And it amplifies the kids thing, too. I have to stay tough I have to stick close I worry what happens if it's just her if I'm not around...

 

But damn. I'm about 98% likely getting divorced, aren't I?

 

Any silver bullets?

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Hey I should mention, too... David Foster Wallace was my favorite author of all time. Genius, just a genius... I was really distressed about what he did. The first time I read "Incarnations of Burned Children" I felt worse than I do right now. And just from short form fiction...

 

http://www.esquire.com/fiction/fiction/incarnations-burned-children-0900

 

My point is maybe (?) I overreacted to my wife's mention re "offing herself?"

 

I don't trust my reactions at all right now.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Damn it got all quiet out here.

 

I'd like to set something up for my return to Dallas (our new home) next Friday. It's a new city for us; I don't know anyone local to ask for referrals. I could in theory go back to the counselor that we used last year, but that doesn't really seem like the best choice, esp. because of the distance. I don't really want to just pick someone out of the phonebook or google search results.

 

Suggestions for how I can find someone good?

 

Looking to address mostly me issues, i.e. my first question do I really want to reconcile?

 

Thanks.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

I'm now certain that she'll actually be paying a visit to a way old (it's been 20 years) OM. I suggested that she get on Facebook when she was a little down after our last move; I know that they reconnected there.

 

>> Should I confront, intercede, try to stop, not "enable?"

 

>> Or should I just let this happen, and maybe gather some evidence along the way?

 

I don't know if I trust my responses right now, but I'm leaning toward the latter. I deserve it; some masochistic part of me wants to feel what she felt, walk that road. And it would be good to even things out if the big D is inevitable. I don't want to make it adversarial but I'm not sure that she's in the same place.

 

The big argument for the former is the kids... Damnit the kids. Breaks my heart to think of anyone hurting them. There's that part of me do anything lay down and die eat **** for the rest of my life just to pave the way for them... Likely deluded, but I feel it. I do.

 

>> Are there other options?

 

Weird how these boards work; I'm dropping down the list here. I would still very much like the advice and counsel of any of you with something to offer here.

 

I'm not so sure, after this weekend, about letting this happen. My head fills with fantasies of catching her red handed and getting even. But that's not healthy at all. And if I let this happen, I'm really giving up on everything, aren't I?

 

I've not confronted, yet. I don't want to gather evidence / spy any more than I already have; feels like that will kill what little bit of trust might be barely there between us. But I don't want to enable, either. I'm in this place where I'm trying to just be and be happy and not force any conversation about our relationship or the future (so none is taking place). And there are little glimmers of hope to reward me for this - laughs, smiles, shared jokes, the chance to still be around. I don't know how to bring this up without starting a huge fight and inflaming all the worst things that she feels about me. I don't know how to bring it up from a loving, wanting-to-give-us-a-chance place.

 

I do have an appointment to see a counselor on Monday night.

 

Any suggestions, anyone..?

 

Thank you, in advance.

[Ronni_W]

I could in theory go back to the counselor that we used last year, but that doesn't really seem like the best choice, esp. because of the distance. I don't really want to just pick someone out of the phonebook or google search results.

 

Suggestions for how I can find someone good?

I wouldn't suggest to go back to your previous counselor. The 'bolded' bits below are from your much earlier posts. I didn't post my response earlier cos I hadn't read the entire thread. (Still haven't.) But. Hopefully there is something useful for you, or ask for clarification.

 

The first round of marriage counseling didn't really take because she wasn't open / honest about herself in that setting.

 

And because you also weren’t open and honest about yourself in that setting – you also “gamed it”. Current indications are that another round of marriage counseling also will not be too productive for both of you, for different or same reasons as before.

 

But I think that my affair was more consequence than cause.

 

Yes, it was the consequence of you not choosing some other way to address whatever feelings of discontent you were experiencing and whatever (mutually) non-supportive dynamics existed in your marriage. Having an affair was your personal response, and personal choice.

 

I am considering finding a counselor of my own to help work through some things.

Anyway... Any suggestions re online resources, qualifications / schools of thought I should look for and/or avoid, etc.? …are these all ideas that come out of AA, ACOA, 12 Step Programs, etc.?

 

If I may, don’t get hung-up on the terminology, modalities, techniques, “lingo” and “babble” – look for articles and books that are much simpler: how to get clarity, how to save my marriage, how to be more assertive, how to know what I want, how to hear my heart, etc.

 

What I look for in a therapist is someone who will ASK, “How can I help you?” not tell me how they can or how they are gonna. That is, a therapist who believes that I have my own answers…and I just need some help with dragging my answers out of my Self.

I don’t give a crap if we are doing “inner child work” or “voice dialoguing” – they can go and discuss such things with their colleagues, if that is how they get their jollies. Do NOT use me for your professional-ego masturbation, basically.

 

It is possible that you are exhausting yourself trying to learn stuff from the therapist’s side instead of just being content to be the client. If that makes sense? Working much too hard on the stuff that you don’t need to know. Almost as if trying to do your (future) counselor’s work. You don’t need to…that stuff is what you’re gonna be paying her or him a decent fee, to know.

 

Specific tactic: Ignore everything that your mind is telling you is crap, or is doubtful to be helpful, or is not relevant to your cause.

For your self-help work, pick one or two authors or resource sites that ‘speak’ to you best, and just stick with that. These are the ones that, for you, do NOT engage in ‘babble” and do NOT sound like 12-step reps trying to sell you snake oil.

 

I’d suggest that all the 12-step programs are based on psychological theories and ideas, rather than the other way around. But it’s based on OLD theories and ideas, some of which have been debunked, or just proven to NOT BE as effective as ‘newer’ theories and ideas. Personally, “traditional” psychotherapeutic models and tools don’t work as well for me. But if you’re not into “new age”, then that’s equally fine. Go with what you prefer.

 

It’s not that we all had, or needed to have, crappy childhoods to have grown into maladaptive adults. It is that, during our childhoods, we were not educated about how to deal effectively with our “negative” emotions and whatever incidents we viewed as traumatic (didn’t necessarily have to BE as much of a trauma as our child’s mind perceived it, for it to have had a long-term “negative” influence on our beliefs, attitudes, thought processes/patterns, fears, insecurities, etc.)

 

How we view and interact with our external world today, IS shaped by how we viewed and were taught to interact with it (externals) as youngsters. It didn’t have to be a crappy external world back then, for us to have some seriously misshapen/warped views of things, today.

 

Hypochondria generally is applied to physical illnesses not psycho-emotional, so, to my mind, somewhat different. Also, IMO, executive coaching is a different animal, entirely, from psychotherapy. VERY few exec coaches are trained therapists, and not too many life coaches, either. Though too many of both categories do pose as therapists.

---

That's as far as I had typed. And haven't even reviewed it now. It's not disinterest so much as...well, whatever it is.

As mentioned at start, do feel free to re-engage.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Thanks Ronni. I had an interview call and then an intake visit with a new individual counselor earlier this week. I'm seeing him again on Saturday. And I am trying to apply some of the better stuff that I've found on this board and in other resources. Also bouncing around a few other posts on this board and still trying to tough through SingleDad's long thread - I understand what you mean it's hard to get all the way through! Anyway I appreciate your suggestions. For now I just feel like doing something is better than doing nothing, so I'm trying.

 

I'm also still trying to figure out how to address the issue of her upcoming trip, where I strongly suspect that she'll be visiting an old friend OM. Still have 10 days to go. I've known for a week now and I've not really done anything, which feels like a bit of an accomplishment. I'm just trying to build enough rapport and calm that I can raise the subject without it turning into a giant fight. It may come to that eventually, though. And I still entertain fantasies of letting her go, just to really expose / burn her while she's gone. Trying to keep that just to fantasy, though; I don't really expect that it would be productive.

 

Thanks again.

[Owl]

If you suspect a spouse of planning a meeting with a potential affair partner...you don't agree to let them go.

 

It's that simple.

 

If you believe that's what's going to happen...tell her that point blank, and tell her that this is the wrong time for her to take a trip. Right now, in order for things to heal, the two of you need to be together...not apart.

 

Trust needs to be rebuilt...and it isn't rebuilt by creating a situation that would enable and encourage her to reconnect with a former OM.

 

It's that simple.

 

If she's finally being open and honest about how she feels and what's gone on...perhaps now IS the right time to find a new MC and give that a shot.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

If you suspect a spouse of planning a meeting with a potential affair partner...you don't agree to let them go.

 

I know... You're right of course. Like I said I just have these less-than-constructive ideas that creep into the back of my mind. (Plenty of those voices around this board, too.) But I'm working against my bad instincts, and I appreciate your reminder / support.

 

I'm still waiting for the right time to jump in on this. Just... Going slow, being patient, building rapport and making her doubt. I want it to be a constructive conversation, not a confrontation, though I realize that even the latter is better than the destruction of letting her go.

 

I do believe that I introduced a little bit of doubt over the last week or two, just by the way I've backed off and kept things easy. I read two great quotes on another blog:

“Smile, breath, and go slowly."

 

“Sometimes your joy is the source of your smile, but sometimes your smile can be the source of your joy.”

 

- Thich Naht Hanh, Vietnamese Zen Buddhist monk

So I'm trying to do that.

 

My story is pretty familiar to any of the regulars out here... Trying to say away from all the bad behaviors and instincts that got me into this jam in the first place, trying to do things 180 degrees opposite of what I usually do. But it's hard and uncomfortable and anyway thanks; I do appreciate the reminder.

 

Tactics would be welcome, too!

 

If she's finally being open and honest about how she feels and what's gone on...perhaps now IS the right time to find a new MC and give that a shot.

 

I wonder about this. I think that she's being more honest, for example we have these issues of ACOA and depression front and center. But I still don't think that she's being totally honest, for example I can't imagine that she's telling her counselor, or her friends (to whom she complained instantly and in detail about my own infidelity) what she's planning. I expect that we'll get into this a bit when we have the conversation.

 

Do you have suggestions about how to find / qualify a good MC, esp. in a new city where we don't really know anyone to ask?

 

Thanks.

[Ronni_W]

When choosing your therapist, allow your heart to guide you. I have had a few with impeccable credentials, who just were not what I needed and it was just a messy 'spinning of wheels'. Then I've worked with intern students who were amazing, and helped me achieve excellent outcomes.

 

Maybe reflect on what it is that you want to get out of your sessions? What role do you expect to play in gaining your own answers, and what do you need from the counselor? To whom are you assigning responsibility for your own clarity, solutions and healing? Questions like that.

I'm just trying to build enough rapport and calm that I can raise the subject without it turning into a giant fight. ... And I still entertain fantasies of letting her go, just to really expose / burn her while she's gone.

I'm still waiting for the right time to jump in on this. Just... Going slow, being patient, building rapport and making her doubt.

I think that she's being more honest, ... But I still don't think that she's being totally honest,

If I may, you are focusing on HER dishonesty instead of on your own -- you only have control over yours, so why worry about something over which you have none? And perhaps even more that you may be being dishonest WITH YOURSELF, about your own motivations and desires (though that does, of course, also translate into being dishonest with your 'external world'.)

 

Not saying any of the following is conscious, on your part. But just cos it's not, doesn't make you the honest one or the "more honest" one, if you prefer.

And also not saying that my interpretation is accurate -- please just ignore everything that does not resonate with you, and all will be well :

 

Between the lines, I'm also interpreting something about you not wanting to be the one who is the initiator of that confrontation (that you are itching to have.)

That way, you can be the 'injured party' (victim) and she can be the 'bitch persecutor'. THAT would also be a reason that you haven't done anything concrete to block this impending visit of doom, that your wife is going to be undertaking. [EDIT] At least, there may be an unconscious hope that this will be the 'visit of doom' that will free you from your marriage. [/EDIT]

 

You'll get to have what it just really seems to me that you really want, and also won't have to be held accountable for your own role in getting it.

 

That type of behaviour isn't "building rapport" it is creating a scapegoat. There is no genuine "calm" to be had, if we originally obtained it at some else's expense. You are much more likely to end up hating yourself in the proverbial morning unless you get a lot more honest WITH YOURSELF before that morning comes.

 

You do deserve genuine inner peace and happiness, no question about that.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Thanks Ronni.

 

Maybe reflect on what it is that you want to get out of your sessions? What role do you expect to play in gaining your own answers, and what do you need from the counselor? To whom are you assigning responsibility for your own clarity, solutions and healing? Questions like that.

 

I went into my first session with two specific and near term goals:

 

(1) How do I know if I want to reconcile?

(2) How do I intervene on this upcoming trip?

 

Counselor gave me some exercises re "relationship standards" - What do I want, what's optional, what's non-negotiable, etc. I've been working through those. But anyway I have some objectives, short and long term. (I think that?) I'm willing to do my part. And (I think that?) I'm taking responsibility - though I'm also looking for help from those who have gone before me!

 

"Clarity" has come up twice now, like that's a specific subject I can research or learn more about. Are there resources you'd recommend to help me find clarity?

 

If I may, you are focusing on HER dishonesty instead of on your own -- you only have control over yours, so why worry about something over which you have none?

 

Yeah that's fair, and a good point.

 

I do worry, though, about how much I want to throw into this - how much more I want to open myself up, based on my guesses about her level of honesty. I don't want to be the only one. I want her to meet me in the middle somewhere. I'm willing to lead / go first. Just not how far out on the limb I want to go on my own.

 

And perhaps even more that you may be being dishonest WITH YOURSELF, about your own motivations and desires (though that does, of course, also translate into being dishonest with your 'external world'.)

 

Not saying any of the following is conscious, on your part. But just cos it's not, doesn't make you the honest one or the "more honest" one, if you prefer.

 

And also not saying that my interpretation is accurate -- please just ignore everything that does not resonate with you, and all will be well :

 

Well, I don't think that I'm being deliberately dishonest. And I think that I'm pretty conscious and aware of where I'm at. But that place is confused and uncertain... Testing a lot of conflicting thoughts and arguments in my mind, not sure what's right or which voices should win out. I will say that I honestly don't know. (But that's different from being dishonest and saying that I do know, right?)

 

I've been trying to stay focused on some advice I got earlier in this thread from RecordProducer, which I thought was excellent:

 

You can't know during the process of reconciliation. Just be "officially" committed, as much as you can. I assume honesty is part of the process, so be honest about your lack of faith or desire. But be part of the process. When you start feeling steadily happy or unhappy, the decision will come naturally. You can't know whether you're unsure because you're frustrated, hold grudges, tired of trying, feel inadequate, fell out of love... or whatever reason. If you know the reason for sure, then you can answer this question for yourself.

 

I feel all those things, and more. For now I'm sticking in on this and trying to see if one or two reasons sort to the top.

 

Between the lines, I'm also interpreting something about you not wanting to be the one who is the initiator of that confrontation (that you are itching to have.)

 

That way, you can be the 'injured party' (victim) and she can be the 'bitch persecutor'. THAT would also be a reason that you haven't done anything concrete to block this impending visit of doom, that your wife is going to be undertaking. [EDIT] At least, there may be an unconscious hope that this will be the 'visit of doom' that will free you from your marriage. [/EDIT]

 

You'll get to have what it just really seems to me that you really want, and also won't have to be held accountable for your own role in getting it.

 

That type of behaviour isn't "building rapport" it is creating a scapegoat. There is no genuine "calm" to be had, if we originally obtained it at some else's expense.

 

I appreciate the challenge, but I think that I'm OK on this. I know that I'll be the one to initiate this conversation. I'm taking some time, and venting here, and generally trying to stay cool, so that I can not approach it as an injured victim. I am planning the conversation and how I want it to go, not just rushing in headlong. I am looking for advice on this board, and talking about it with my counselor. And... We have some guests over the holiday - I don't want to get into this while they're around; I don't want to embarrass her. There will be a few days after our guests leave before she's off on her own trip; I will bring it up in that window.

 

On one end of the continuum, I could have gone ape**** and confronted her and gotten in her face the moment I found out. (This was the treatment that I got a year ago.)

 

On the other end, I could ignore it and let her go and hire a PI to tail her and take pics while I hack her email and facebook accounts, send broadcast messages about "betraying her family," cancel her phone and redirect the flood of calls I'd get from her friends to the OM's number, and generally go nuclear. (Told you, active fantasies...)

 

I'm trying to steer somewhere down the middle.

 

And I am doing concrete things to avert the "impending visit of doom" (I like that ); I've just not gone all the way to blocking it yet. I'm laying off the heavy relationship talk, trying to express love in her languages not mine, suppressing anything that might be annoying or negative or challenging, being happy and easy to be around, listening, affirmation, etc etc... Reminding her why we're together, sowing doubt. Fantasy outcome is she comes to me and says "You know, I've decided I don't want to go..." without the need for me to confront or block.

 

But if (when) it comes to that, I will.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Also, IMO, executive coaching is a different animal, entirely, from psychotherapy. VERY few exec coaches are trained therapists, and not too many life coaches, either. Though too many of both categories do pose as therapists.

 

Thanks for this, too. I'm still thinking through it all.

 

Thought I'd remark quickly on this one bit, though.

 

There are differences, sure, but there are shared tactics, too. Or maybe I don't need psychotherapy so much as a communication coach...

 

One of the big skills I've worked on with an executive coach is "flexing" my communication style - studying the party I'm communicating with, classifying, planning, figuring out how to get my messages across figuring out how to get what I want.

 

I'd never take a default / one size approach to a business conversation. I'd never go into an important business communication or negotiation without preparing for it, and likely for 2-3x longer than I actually spend in such communication or negotiation. I study, put in effort, and get results.

 

But I never did that at home...

 

I'm trying now.

 

Right or wrong? I don't know...

 

We have these ideas about romantic love, star crossed fate... Instantly and forever simpatico without any need to ever adjust or change or "flex" who you are; just two puzzle pieces perfect fit.

 

But, pragmatically, what's good or worth having that doesn't take at least a little bit of effort and maintenance and work?!

 

Hmmm....?

[Ronni_W]

I use "clarity" in context of generally finding answers to our deeper questions, and also as the opposite of "confused and uncertain".

 

Have you checked the 'emotional needs' and 'love busters' questionnaires at marriagebuilders.com -- could help with the exercises that your counselor assigned.

 

I do worry, though, about how much I want to throw into this - how much more I want to open myself up, based on my guesses about her level of honesty. I don't want to be the only one. I want her to meet me in the middle somewhere.

 

Probably just how I like to live my life but...basing one's own level of honesty on one's guesses of someone else's just sounds like horsecrap to me! Isn't that like allowing your own integrity to be compromised whenever (you guess) someone else is acting without?

We either are people of honesty and integrity, or we are not, IMO. It is not dependent on anyone else's ability or willingness to be honest.

 

BUT. That type of thinking ("I'm not doing any more than she is") really does offer insight into what it is you really are feeling towards her and your marriage. It really does.

 

On one end of the continuum, I could have gone ape**** and confronted her and gotten in her face the moment I found out. ... On the other end, I could ignore it and let her go and hire a PI ...[truck load of "fantasy" hostile and vindictive acts]..., and generally go nuclear.

 

You say that you're looking to steer down the "middle" but actually those scenarios (either ends of the continuum) BOTH end with you acting pretty much the same, do they not? (In context, is there very much difference between "ape$h!t" and "nuclear"?)

 

Interesting, now that I'm seeing it, that you are very much focused on the "middle" -- not sure how that plays out for you. Maybe it is helping to keep you "stuck in the middle" (of confusion, uncertainty)? Maybe there is an unconscious fear of actually choosing one or another position?

 

To me, though, the "middle" of going ape$h!t and going nuclear is NOT doing either, obvious as that may sound.

The "middle" is an adult-to-adult conversation that calmly expresses your concerns about the visit. Which you could have initiated immediately, or you can still have at any point before the visit.

IMO, it's not even about trying to prevent it...just about you expressing your fears, or ultimatums, or desires, or whatever you do have, about it. And letting HER decide what risks she is willing to take, and what aspects of her life she is willing to jeopardize.

 

Again, just my personal thing but I think it is more honest to express own concerns than to try to manipulate a change in her decision by "sowing doubt".

 

Fantasy outcome is she comes to me and says "You know, I've decided I don't want to go..."

 

But. Your whole thread is that YOU don't even know, right now, if you want to be together...so first, what kinda BS will you need to use to "remind her why you're together"? (Why don't you just remind yourself and then you'll have your "clarity" about whether or not you want to reconcile, yes? )

 

And second, how is that your fantasy outcome if you really don't know whether or not you even want to reconcile? Or is it just that you want her to want you, even when you don't know if you do return the favour?

Or maybe you want to have all the control of the 'how, when & why' of the ultimate outcome of your marriage?

 

There are differences, sure, but there are shared tactics, too. Or maybe I don't need psychotherapy so much as a communication coach...

Depends on how you believe that a 'communications coach' is going to help you lose your confusion and uncertainty.

 

As I said, coaches will have their clients believe that there are many "shared tactics". And yes, stress & time management strategies are the same, no matter who is teaching them. But the GOALS of therapy/counseling and of coaching are vastly different. So the process is necessarily vastly different, too.

 

There are huge differences between being able to positively communicate one's own feelings, fears, desires, preferences, dislikes, hurts, disappointments, etc., etc., and being able to negotiate win-win solutions. In business, communicating the former is unnecessary (even frowned upon), and in personal relationships the latter can come across as just plain manipulative (and very often that is at least an unconscious intention.) IMO.

 

Coaches may be able to teach you how to set & achieve goals, live a more "balanced" life, and better express your feelings, fears, life purpose and meaning, and the like...BUT they are not trained to help you know (gain insight into) what those things are in the first place.

 

, what's good or worth having that doesn't take at least a little bit of effort and maintenance and work?!

 

Well, everything that is good and worth having WITH effort is also good and worth having without it.

Just that, if one has to exert one's self, then it only makes sense to also consider the ROI. What is your ROI in your marriage? THAT is your question, is it not? (And it is a different question than what is your wife's ROI in her marriage.)

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Damn, Ronni. You should be a counselor. This is... Challenging. But insightful. Thank you.

 

Probably just how I like to live my life but...basing one's own level of honesty on one's guesses of someone else's just sounds like horsecrap to me! Isn't that like allowing your own integrity to be compromised whenever (you guess) someone else is acting without?

 

We either are people of honesty and integrity, or we are not, IMO. It is not dependent on anyone else's ability or willingness to be honest.

 

BUT. That type of thinking ("I'm not doing any more than she is") really does offer insight into what it is you really are feeling towards her and your marriage. It really does.

 

May be a distinction without a difference, but, I didn't mean to suggest that I was moderating my level of honesty. I'm trying to be honest with her and with myself, though it's hard in this confusion. But I'm not pulling back from that. I meant, more, my level of effort, like how hard to try, how long to wait, how much work to put in. Waiting for someone who's gone is... Kind of pitiful. Trying when the other's not... Just seems like wasted effort and maybe a way to delay the inevitable?

 

You say that you're looking to steer down the "middle" but actually those scenarios (either ends of the continuum) BOTH end with you acting pretty much the same, do they not? (In context, is there very much difference between "ape$h!t" and "nuclear"?)

 

Yeah you're dead on right about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

To me, though, the "middle" of going ape$h!t and going nuclear is NOT doing either, obvious as that may sound.

 

The "middle" is an adult-to-adult conversation that calmly expresses your concerns about the visit. Which you could have initiated immediately, or you can still have at any point before the visit.

 

IMO, it's not even about trying to prevent it...just about you expressing your fears, or ultimatums, or desires, or whatever you do have, about it. And letting HER decide what risks she is willing to take, and what aspects of her life she is willing to jeopardize.

 

Again, just my personal thing but I think it is more honest to express own concerns than to try to manipulate a change in her decision by "sowing doubt".

 

This is what I intend - calm, and with enough rapport worked out that I don't get upset, or make her upset, and why I'm trying to plan and take some time. And yeah actually that is how I was planning to frame it - "Look here are some things that I'm concerned about; are these valid concerns?" In lieu of accusing or challenging...

 

Though I'm not sure if I should actually ask for feedback about my concerns, or just lay them out there and see what happens. Still some time to figure that, though. Feedback welcome.

 

Fantasy outcome is she comes to me and says "You know, I've decided I don't want to go..."

 

But. Your whole thread is that YOU don't even know, right now, if you want to be together...so first, what kinda BS will you need to use to "remind her why you're together"? (Why don't you just remind yourself and then you'll have your "clarity" about whether or not you want to reconcile, yes? )

 

And second, how is that your fantasy outcome if you really don't know whether or not you even want to reconcile? Or is it just that you want her to want you, even when you don't know if you do return the favour?

Or maybe you want to have all the control of the 'how, when & why' of the ultimate outcome of your marriage?

 

I just meant a "best" outcome to this short term, two-weeks game of chicken that I'm playing, not the larger questions. I'm still working on the larger questions. But I want more time to do that, and/or I don't want it to be any more confused our cloudy than it already is.

 

Thanks very much for your careful read and thoughtful post.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

But. Your whole thread is that YOU don't even know, right now, if you want to be together...so first, what kinda BS will you need to use to "remind her why you're together"? (Why don't you just remind yourself and then you'll have your "clarity" about whether or not you want to reconcile, yes? )

 

I have been trying to think this through - why do I love her, or why did I love her? Thought I'd test some of these ideas out here, just to help organize my thoughts, and to gather your feedback.

 

When I met, pursued, and married my wife, she was:

 

>> Confident, really dominant, of her circumstances and the things that she gave her energy to. (She was an elite college athlete and Olympic hopeful softball pitcher. I once saw her pitch 20 strikeouts in a seven inning game.)

 

>> Super competent, able, and respected in her career. (People always underestimated her because of her looks and her athletic background. She exceeded expectations and was usually the smartest one in the room. Made me jealous and proud.)

 

>> Quietly, though - Not cocky though she had every right to be. She was just self-assured and at ease with herself.

 

>> Really just the smartest, strongest, most able woman I'd ever met.

 

>> And she lit up when I pursued her. The way she smiled... Slayed me.

 

Now. All those things are gone. Or nearly so.

 

But we did that together. We made decisions that, in hindsight, were just wrong wrong wrong. We decided to move, we decided to drop softball, we decided that she'd stay home and raise kids. In hindsight that was a huge mistake. And she cooled. And I did dumb ****. And we killed everything that was great about her. And now she's tired, and beset by her circumstances, and not confident in herself or in me, and depressed, and it's hard for her to muster a smile.

 

At least around me.

 

If this stuff is just done and gone for good, it's time we should both move on.

 

But, because I had a hand in killing it, I feel like I should try to bring it back. I feel like we should undo some of the bad decisions that we made. I feel like I should encourage and be impressed and help her get that confidence and self back. I feel like I owe her that.

 

And, in the course of so doing, maybe I'll fall in love with her again?

 

I hadn't planned it, but I ended up telling her a fair amount of this last night, and we had sex for the first time in several weeks. It felt cathartic.

 

But I realize that we're not at all out of the woods.

 

Interested in your continued thoughts here. Thank you.

[Ronni_W]

Yes, I do think that asking whether or not your concerns are valid is important for both of you. (You also have to start thinking about how you will respond when/if she says, "No, you have nothing at all to be concerned, about that.")

 

So what else is going on in these exchanges is that you are just needing to clarify what you "really meant" too often for your own good -- that is, of course, indicative of your inner confusion but the words you are using (rather, your ineffective choice of words) are also perpetuating the lack of clarity -- you are not making yourself clear to us, so likely your self-talk is not making anything clearer for you, either. If that makes some sense?

 

, my level of effort, like how hard to try, ... Trying when the other's not... Just seems like wasted effort

 

Yep, exactly! Just really really crappy ROI, is it not? Like investing in the auto industry, at this point. Dumb and dumber. THAT is how I knew to get the heck out of my marriage.

 

Important for you, though: How are YOU interpreting your message that you are receiving horrid ROI? Can you improve the 'investment vehicle' that is your marriage? Is it worth it, to YOU, to provide the interim bail-out? -- to do MORE than what you perceive is your "fair share" for some period of months or a year or whatever it may take to turn-around the whole darn thing?

 

I just meant a "best" outcome to this short term, two-weeks game of chicken that I'm playing,

 

You want your wife to put her life (desires, goals, preferences, needs, trip) on hold while YOU play a game of chicken?

And you're bitching about YOU wasting your effort and basically getting crappy ROI???

 

Kidding me, right? Or is it April Fool's Day?

[Ronni_W]

>> Confident, really dominant, of her circumstances and the things that she gave her energy to.

>> Super competent, able, and respected in her career.

>> Quietly, though - Not cocky though she had every right to be. She was just self-assured and at ease with herself.

>> Really just the smartest, strongest, most able woman I'd ever met.

>> And she lit up when I pursued her. The way she smiled... Slayed me.

Put that another way: YOU lit her up and YOU turned on her smile.

And then YOU stopped doing it. For whatever honest reasons like kids, mortgages and car payments. (If you can find your courage and willingness to hold YOUR 100% responsibility for stopping it, that would be beneficial.)

 

Now. NONE of the other things are gone. All excellent athletes do lose that, and most retire with grace and dignity. So, that was likely to happen, anyway -- it's not "gone" in that sense, it has been retired with gratitude.

 

YOU stopped seeing it, respecting, admiring and appreciating it as you did when you met, pursued and married her, is all. (For whatever honest yet completely misguided reasons, as mentioned. But YOU stopped.)

 

And yes, of course, your withdrawal of your admiration and appreciation of all those wonderful and beautiful qualities and strengths that represent who she is, would have had a serious negative impact on her. Decreasing self-esteem, feelings of being "less than" she was, not as loved, etc.

 

And instead of recognizing your impact on her (in reality, she was the injured party), you somehow managed to turn it into her impact on you...and you have been doing that, ever since, and using that as your excuse to engage in foolish, damaging and hurtful thoughts, attitudes and actions.

 

And so. YOU actually do have the responsibility of working incredibly hard and diligently to give back to your wife and your marriage what YOU took from her and from it. You are asking for her equal contribution but THAT is misguided. You are thinking that you could possibly over-contribute but that is inaccurate.

 

That ROI...you have been overdrawn for quite some time. SHE has been bailing YOU out! It is YOUR turn to get out of the red.

 

You CAN, if you choose to do so, begin your work to facilitate her feelings of being competent, smart, strong, respected, able, capable, self-assured and at ease with who she is. She does not have any work to do, about that. YOU need to turn back on her smile. If you want it turned on for you.

 

But you can't do it through "sowing doubts" and "building rapport" -- you'd be better off taking 100% responsibility for the mess that YOU created, being humble, saying you're sorry for your part, making amends, telling her how great she is, how much you've missed her, how much you want to make her feel like you used to make her feel.

 

Or you can just decide, "Screw it, it is just not worth all that bother and effort."

(Isn't it great to have the power of free will and self-determination? )

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Put that another way: YOU lit her up and YOU turned on her smile.

 

And then YOU stopped doing it. For whatever honest reasons like kids, mortgages and car payments. (If you can find your courage and willingness to hold YOUR 100% responsibility for stopping it, that would be beneficial.)

 

Um, ouch. I think that it was at least a little mutual.

 

And so. YOU actually do have the responsibility of working incredibly hard and diligently to give back to your wife and your marriage what YOU took from her and from it. You are asking for her equal contribution but THAT is misguided. You are thinking that you could possibly over-contribute but that is inaccurate.

 

But yeah, that was kind of my feeling and my point. Thanks for the feedback. As for my own part, back to work..!

 

Happy holidays all.

[Ronni_W]

Wishing you all the best over the Holidays and into the New Year, as well.

 

Um, ouch. I think that it was at least a little mutual.

Yes, she has HER 100% responsibility, too. Had she been my correspondent, I would've, of course, been conversing from that perspective