How Do I *Know* If I Want To Reconcile?

[Focus_On_The_Process]

You can't know during the process of reconciliation. Just be "officially" committed, as much as you can. I assume honesty is part of the process, so be honest about your lack of faith or desire. But be pat of the process. When you start feeling steadily happy or unhappy, the decision will come naturally. You can't know whether you're unsure because you're frustrated, hold grudges, tired of trying, feel inadequate, fell out of love... or whatever reason. If you know the reason fro sure, then you can answer this question for yourself.

 

Ask yourself:

1. if my spouse would start acting/treating me the way I would like it, would I be in love again?

2. do I believe that we could both improve?

3. is the change I want a matter of personality (on either side) or a matter of behavior?

4. can I meet my spouse's expectations?

5. in theory, could I be happy with this person?

 

First read, this is really good stuff. Thank you. I have to catch a plane... But I'm taking it with me; I'm going to think it over.

 

Thanks everyone.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Have you considered going back into individual therapy to help get your thoughts and feelings sorted out?

 

OK so I am considering finding a counselor of my own to help work through some things.

 

In addition to our couples counseling last year, I've used executive coaches a couple of times in the past, so I'm comfortable "getting on the couch," so to speak. But I'm also pretty nervous / skeptical that - same as any other profession - there are good ones and bad ones. (Or is Tom Cruise right; are they all quacks?)

 

Anyway... Any suggestions re online resources, qualifications / schools of thought I should look for and/or avoid, etc.?

 

I did some reading last night on codependency, barriers, emotional honesty, etc.. Partly because based on what little I know of these things, it sounds like they might apply to me. Partly because my wife's mentioned them as things she's working on in ACOA. In going through this stuff... I realize that our counselor last year was heavy into these "12 Step" topics, though she never explicitly mentioned that turn of phrase. But phrases like "old tapes," "wounded child," "inner parent," etc. did come up several times, and they're right here in the reading that I did, too.

 

These are also pretty big parts of Imago.

 

So are these all ideas that come out of AA, ACOA, 12 Step Programs, etc.?

 

In general what should I think of this stuff?

 

There are bits and pieces that do seem relevant. But I get a bit put off by all the new-agey spiritual stuff. And I have a hard time understanding how these things can (apparently?) apply to every single person on the planet, which isn't really stated explicitly, but seems to be the underlying premise i.e. we all had ****ty childhoods, we all struggle for identity, etc. My parents weren't alcoholics. They weren't particularly in love, but there wasn't any hostility or abuse. (I think... But is the premise of this 12 step stuff that all kids were / are shamed and abused?!) Anyway I think that it was a largely unremarkable childhood.

 

I guess I'm skeptical that the come ons sound like classic snake oil - whatever ails you, this'll cure it! There's enough that seems to resonate to set the hook with just about anyone, and we discount the stray stuff that makes no sense, e.g. gems like this:

 

"On an emotional level the dance of Recovery is owning and honoring the emotional wounds so that we can release the grief energy - the pain, rage, terror, and shame that is driving us."

 

WTF? Is that all it takes - releasing the grief energy..?

 

So anyway can one program really address everyone's issues, every possible topic?

 

And this touches on one of my issues / pet peeves about my wife... Really must we all have something wrong with us? (See previous comments re hypochondria.)

 

Still looking, in general, for specific tactics and suggestions re how I can work this through. Thanks to those of you who've offered specific feedback on this question so far; it's good and I've got in on simmer in my mind.

 

Thanks.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

What I don't hear you saying is "I don't want to lose my wife".

 

Is your not wanting to be divorced due to things you've mentioned such as fear of failure, pride, kids, etc., or is it because you can't stand the thought of living without your wife everyday for the rest of your life?

 

That right there would be the crux of the issue for me.

 

When you said that your heart is in it, but your head isn't I wasn't really convinced. Personally, if my heart wants something, my head usually finds ways to get on board. I think if your heart was really into reconciling, that's what you'd be doing right now. Maybe your head and your heart are more on the same page than you want to admit, but guilt keeps you stuck in this quandry. Just a thought.

 

The only thing you can really do is be as introspective as possible, be honest with yourself, and realize that the only wrong answer here is the one that's wrong for YOU.

 

This is pretty good stuff; thank you.

 

Personal circumstances I do live without my wife on lots and lots of days. It's not hard to imagine. But I do like coming home. Or I did...

 

Head, heart... Not sure. Can we introduce gut? Does gut = guilt? It's definitely a strong instinctive reaction to try to protect and save things. It's a reflex I don't even think about it.

 

Outwardly, with and around my wife, I am 100% focused on repair. Kind of like RecordProducer suggested - just try while you work to figure it out. Some of how I'm doing that is based on other stuff I've read around this board. And while it's early, I'm seeing some results. Things aren't great, but they're not at their worst, and they're not getting worse. Maybe incrementally slightly better?

 

Inwardly, though... This second guessing, these questions. Wait do I really want this? Is this best for any of us? Or is it just because I hate to lose? And this rambling out here.

 

Anyway good comments; thank you.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

You can't know during the process of reconciliation. Just be "officially" committed, as much as you can. I assume honesty is part of the process, so be honest about your lack of faith or desire. But be pat of the process. When you start feeling steadily happy or unhappy, the decision will come naturally. You can't know whether you're unsure because you're frustrated, hold grudges, tired of trying, feel inadequate, fell out of love... or whatever reason. If you know the reason fro sure, then you can answer this question for yourself.

 

Ask yourself:

1. if my spouse would start acting/treating me the way I would like it, would I be in love again?

2. do I believe that we could both improve?

3. is the change I want a matter of personality (on either side) or a matter of behavior?

4. can I meet my spouse's expectations?

5. in theory, could I be happy with this person?

 

Just one more note. This is very helpful too, thank you. Not sure if I should admit this, but it's more or less what she (OW) says - keep trying until you're sure you don't want to try; if you're at 1% work it out and 99% bail... Work it out wins.

 

Thanks again.

[Owl]

OK I expect to get blasted about this. That's fair and I deserve it. My first attempt at posting last night was long and confessional about this. But I messed something up and lost it after working on it for something like 60 minutes. I tried again but kept it short.

 

Six years, on and off, before the disclosure. It's been a year since but I don't think that it's over. No physical or face to face contact in more than a year. No contact at all for six months. But then, a couple of phone calls. And emails since then. Pretty cool emotionally, just concerned and trying to help with well being. But that's not over, is it?

 

I understand and agree that this situation is altering my judgment. But must it be clouding it? Could it possibly be clearing it, making me face things that I haven't? I'm not sure...

 

Not blasting you...simply pointing out what's impacting your 'processes'.

 

So it sounds like the affair lasted six years off and on, but hasn't been an "active" affair for the last year, but you're still in contact with her via occasional phone calls and emails.

 

So what that means is that for six years (on and off) you weren't investing deeply in your marriage. And for those six years, you were using "foggy thinking".

 

It's been about a year since the affair was ACTIVE...but you're still in contact with your affair partner.

 

Given that, it's hardly surprising you don't know if you want to reconcile or not.

 

It's been years since you've put any effort into the marriage...frankly, you probably wouldn't know how to do so at this point. Let alone whether or not you want to do so.

 

The only way to decide if you want to reconcile or not is to completely and totally break off any contact with OW...completely. Be totally up front and honest with your wife about every aspect of the affair. Start MC...see what the MC says about recovery for your marriage.

 

The only way your feelings for your wife might return is through effort on both of your parts. You'll hear the phrase "fake it til you make it". That actually does apply well in situations like this. It means go thru the actions of loving your wife until the feelings return.

 

But...at the end of it all...there may not be a way to reconcile here.

 

If I were posting to your wife, I'd give her HUGE, HUGE concerns about trying to reconcile with you. The odds are very, very high that you'll cheat again. You successfully pulled off a long term affair...there's nothing that would prevent you from doing the same, or at least trying again.

 

I don't have alot more advice for you really...I can't see a good easy fix for you.

[TrustInYourself]

Thanks TIY. Respectfully, though, I'm not sure that I agree? If I'm reading this right, you're saying that she met my needs, but I failed to meet hers. I think that it's been pretty mutual. If anything - maybe rose colored glasses please call me out but this is what I think - I made more effort to love her than she did me.

 

So this is what really gives me pause, just thinking it through over the last few weeks. I was doing it all wrong, speaking the wrong love language i.e. mine (service) not hers (time). But I did try to keep doing that, loving her, all along, even now. However if I really think back, honestly... I think that she stopped speaking her love language (time) to me years and years ago. I think that she stopped trying to love me 8-9 years back. Examples... When I first started to travel, we still talked for hours on the phone while I was gone, she'd stay up to meet me when I came in on a late flight, and so on. But maybe because of the pressure of being a single mom, or her not feeling my love for her (wrong language), or whatever... That faded. She was too tired or busy to spend hours on the phone, too tired to stay up late to meet me. She stopped speaking that time language to me. I made things worse when I came home and started in on all the chores or whatever that backed up while I was gone. But I was trying, speaking the wrong language. Love gives you energy, love engages and excites. It made me do those acts of service even though I was tired or annoyed or whatever. But I think that she didn't feel that energy. I think that it's been gone a long time, and we're just now realizing it.

 

Can it come back? I don't know...

 

You're under the the belief that love feeds actions of love. Mature love is the opposite. You're relying on chemicals to fuel your marriage. Your actions and behaviors fuel those feelings, not the opposite.

 

I'm not saying that she met your needs and you failed to meet hers. I'm saying there is a mutual breakdown of love going on here and you are both feeding it. Until someone stops and says what am I doing wrong here, this cycle will continue unabated.

 

You're looking for specific answers to questions that can only be answered by you.

[TrustInYourself]

Just one more note. This is very helpful too, thank you. Not sure if I should admit this, but it's more or less what she (OW) says - keep trying until you're sure you don't want to try; if you're at 1% work it out and 99% bail... Work it out wins.

 

Thanks again.

 

I disagree with this statement as well. This is the path to killing your relationship. Do you enjoy "working" on your marriage.

 

All you've talked about here is the problem. Your focus should be solutions. Behavior based solutions.

 

You mentioned 12 step, inner child, wounded ego...all that psycho babble is just going to give you a reference point. A better understanding of yourself and the past.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Owl. Respectfully, though:

 

It's been years since you've put any effort into the marriage...frankly, you probably wouldn't know how to do so at this point. Let alone whether or not you want to do so.

 

I disagree with this. I put lots of effort into my marriage. Turns out they were the wrong efforts. I didn't use to know how. I've learned a lot since, still learning.

 

My efforts - I thought that by changing jobs, moving cross country twice at her request, ...

 

(And please pause to think about that - I have a pretty big career; she stays at home with our kids. Twice I've dumped my job, started over, and risked my career to change where we live. I've been through so many cities; they all have pros and cons - I could care less where we live. Anyway it certainly was an effort, I didn't do it for me.)

 

... coming home and helping with the kids and the chores and the cleaning which were making her too tired to stay up late with me anyway - I thought that I was helping my wife and giving her what she wanted, working on our marriage. Of course it turns out I was more giving her what I wanted. I didn't realize that at the time. But c'mon you have to admit that it was an effort.

 

However... These efforts were all wrong and didn't work, and I grew frustrated about that, and I viewed myself as a big provider and daddy homemaker dishcleaner clotheslaunderer... And where's the appreciation and crazy mad love that I obviously deserve?! ... And I was susceptible.

 

So I found a place where I got those kudos, even through I barely did anything for her (acts of service), compared to what I did for my wife.

 

The only way to decide if you want to reconcile or not is to completely and totally break off any contact with OW...completely. Be totally up front and honest with your wife about every aspect of the affair. Start MC...see what the MC says about recovery for your marriage.

 

I understand this argument. However I've also been thinking... To some extent, six years... I was giving her what my wife actually wanted - time. To take the reverse of what I wrote above, I didn't think that I was really investing much in this relationship - no money, no care, no helping out, just some time once in a while when I was away from my family anyway, and my wife was too tired to even take a call... In my love language, that doesn't amount to much. But in my wife's, maybe hers... Whoa it is!

 

So short of artificially cutting it off, I'm wondering what might happen if I starve it of time, which is more or less what I've been doing, if I just stop that sort of investment... Will it wither and die on it's own? And will that then prove that she and I are no more "star crossed" than anyone else; she just benefited from the right sort of love language from me, even though I didn't know / intend it at the time? And in some weird way that's a good indicator that if I keep speaking the right language to my wife... Maybe there's hope yet?

 

The only way your feelings for your wife might return is through effort on both of your parts. You'll hear the phrase "fake it til you make it". That actually does apply well in situations like this. It means go thru the actions of loving your wife until the feelings return.

 

Man I am trying... Weird as it sounds, it is an effort for me - it takes deliberate and uncomfortable conscious thought - to come home after 4-5 days away, and the kids are wound up to see me, and the house is trashed, and my wife's exhausted from both those things... And I put a movie on for the kids and ignore the mess and just sit and visit with my wife. It doesn't feel natural. I have to stop myself from something as simple as wiping the counter clean when I get a glass of water... (Yeah, I'm a little OCD.) I am making an effort to give her what she wants, or used to want anyway, just time. Like anything new it's difficult and uncomfortable at first. I'm still in that early place. If I stick with it and I see results, it will start to feel easier, more natural, more normal. Sticking for now. Results? tbd...

 

If I were posting to your wife, I'd give her HUGE, HUGE concerns about trying to reconcile with you. The odds are very, very high that you'll cheat again. You successfully pulled off a long term affair...there's nothing that would prevent you from doing the same, or at least trying again.

 

I don't have alot more advice for you really...I can't see a good easy fix for you.

 

So, more disclosure. It wasn't the first or only. It was just the one that stuck. The one for which I ultimately gave up all others. The place where I got what I thought I deserved - love and appreciation.

 

So yeah, the odds are high. Need to do whole other thread on this topic; as you can tell (and in the words of our counselor) I can "compartmentalize" it pretty well. Could be I'm all wrong about this, but I don't think that my morals / ethics / emotions are that different from the mainstream. I just have more opportunity.

 

What would prevent me from doing the same is to feel love and appreciation from my wife; to feel rewarded for my efforts.

 

Arrrghhh is that codependent?!

 

Back to that first question... Keep trying?

[Focus_On_The_Process]

You mentioned 12 step, inner child, wounded ego...all that psycho babble is just going to give you a reference point. A better understanding of yourself and the past.

 

Well here's something that might agree on! I'm trying to tough through this stuff; there is a little thread of it that seems relevant... But man sometimes "psycho babble" is being generous.

 

There must be people out here with more experience in this stuff than me. Interested to hear more perspective.

 

Your other comments... I have to think on them a while. But thank you.

[TrustInYourself]

Do you read and do research on marriage on your own? There are a few books I'd like to recommend to you and maybe your wife should read them as well, if she feels inclined.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Do you read and do research on marriage on your own? There are a few books I'd like to recommend to you and maybe your wife should read them as well, if she feels inclined.

 

I'm trying, yes! I've picked up several based on recommendations (including, I think, some of yours) in other threads. I can't even keep them all straight right now, but I have about a half dozen in progress.

 

Recommendations welcomed and appreciated.

 

I'm not making any recommendations to my wife right now. Part of respecting her "boundaries." Just time.

 

However the stuff that I've found so far... Is mostly about repair and reconciliation when you know that you want to. I've been questioning whether or not I really do. That's why I started this thread. That may be a distinction without a difference. But I'm really interested in that question, too.

 

Thanks.

[Owl]

Given multiple affairs and a long time history of cheating...I don't think you'll ever truly want to reconcile.

 

From my perspective...there's no basis to save this marriage.

 

You're not happy. She's not happy. You've got a long time habit of going outside the marriage seeking "something" from other women.

 

For her sake, I'd recommend divorce.

 

I don't see any indications from your posts that you WANT to change. Hence your question...and your further revelations indicate that there isn't likely to be a change.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

You're under the the belief that love feeds actions of love. Mature love is the opposite. You're relying on chemicals to fuel your marriage. Your actions and behaviors fuel those feelings, not the opposite.

 

I'm not saying that she met your needs and you failed to meet hers. I'm saying there is a mutual breakdown of love going on here and you are both feeding it. Until someone stops and says what am I doing wrong here, this cycle will continue unabated.

 

You're looking for specific answers to questions that can only be answered by you.

 

If I'm following you correctly...

 

Yes, I believe that love manifests itself in actions of love. I believe that if my wife loved me, she'd express it in her love language - seeking my time - even if I didn't recognize it or welcome it or understand it. I believe that when this started to tail off 8-9 years ago, before I ever strayed... She was falling out of love with me. I believe that's been the case for a long time. I believe that I've loved her all along, and I tried to express it in my love language. Several previous posts on this; no need to revisit.

 

And yeah I believe that if we want to survive, we both need to become "bi-lingual."

 

Are you suggesting that I need to do the acts first (e.g. express myself in her language), and if I keep at it and keep it consistent, then the feeling will follow?

 

If yes... That does ring true, and is consistent with a couple others' comments, and good news that's what (I think?) I'm doing right now?

 

I have said "Stop, I did wrong; I want to do different." I wrote about it every day for a year. I did fail in my actions during that time. Even though I was saying I wanted to try something new, my actions were same old same old. I think (?) that I'm finally figuring out that I need to make things consistent.

 

But right now she's not sure if she wants to try. And for the record I'm not asking. Respecting her boundaries, no need, just doing my part focusing on the process and seeing what happens.

 

But also questioning whether or not I should...

 

But anyway am I reading you right?

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Given multiple affairs and a long time history of cheating...I don't think you'll ever truly want to reconcile.

 

From my perspective...there's no basis to save this marriage.

 

You're not happy. She's not happy. You've got a long time habit of going outside the marriage seeking "something" from other women.

 

For her sake, I'd recommend divorce.

 

I don't see any indications from your posts that you WANT to change. Hence your question...and your further revelations indicate that there isn't likely to be a change.

 

Well, can't convince everyone. Not sure what to say to this other than if I didn't want things to change, I wouldn't have posted at all.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

I disagree with this statement as well. This is the path to killing your relationship. Do you enjoy "working" on your marriage.

 

All you've talked about here is the problem. Your focus should be solutions. Behavior based solutions.

 

You mentioned 12 step, inner child, wounded ego...all that psycho babble is just going to give you a reference point. A better understanding of yourself and the past.

 

OK but is this consistent with your last post? Or am I reading one or both of them wrong?

 

I read your last note as something like "Work on it, practice (i.e. address your behavior) and the feelings will follow."

 

But is this saying "Don't work so hard?"

 

What am I missing?

 

Thanks.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Given multiple affairs and a long time history of cheating...I don't think you'll ever truly want to reconcile.

 

From my perspective...there's no basis to save this marriage.

 

You're not happy. She's not happy. You've got a long time habit of going outside the marriage seeking "something" from other women.

 

For her sake, I'd recommend divorce.

 

I don't see any indications from your posts that you WANT to change. Hence your question...and your further revelations indicate that there isn't likely to be a change.

 

Hey Owl I tried to jump in on one of your older threads. Guess they close after 60 days - no dice.

 

But anyway we did the Five Love Languages, Not Just Friends, and Imago.

 

Obviously I have some experience with the other perspective.

 

Anyway if I can help with any of that, happy to try. Gotta give to get, right?

 

If it helps.

[Owl]

Fair enough...if your posting here is indication of a true, honest desire to change....let's go from that premise.

 

Step one...end ALL contact with OW...completely, forever. Draft an NC letter with your wife's approval, and send it to OW. Make it clear that it's over between the both of you...in any and all fashions. No affair, no friendship...nothing.

 

Step two...get a marriage counselor that can work with the both of you to identify your emotional needs, and help both of you work through how to meet them. It sounds like you've identified some of hers, and have started to meet them...but it sounds as tho your wife still needs to do that on her part. Pick up a copy of "Surviving an Affair" by Dr Harley...that should help you work thru the "process" here.

 

Step three...help your wife work thru personal recovery from your affair. Become an "open book"...show her that you're not cheating, help her to learn how you managed to cheat, and help her set up safeguards so that she can see that you're NOT cheating anymore. This is critical to rebuild her trust in you.

 

Pick up a copy of "His Needs/Her Needs"...use the EN questionaire in there as a basis to help each other learn how to meet your respective needs, and come up with compromises on how to do so. Your marriage counselor should be a big part of this as well.

 

OWN the recovery from your affair. Don't leave it to your wife...take responsibility and accountablity for it.

 

Realize that recovery from this is a marathon...not a sprint. You're not going to be recover tomorrow...or next week. It typically can take YEARS to recover from the damage of an affair...and add in additional time to fix the damage that's accrued in your marriage that led up to that point as well.

 

All you can do is your best to fix things...both the things that existed in your marriage all along, and the damage done as a result of your affair(s).

 

Hope that helps.

[TrustInYourself]

OK but is this consistent with your last post? Or am I reading one or both of them wrong?

 

I read your last note as something like "Work on it, practice (i.e. address your behavior) and the feelings will follow."

 

But is this saying "Don't work so hard?"

 

What am I missing?

 

Thanks.

 

I said behaviors change feelings. Actions speak louder than words. Evaluate yourself. Evaluate your dynamic.

 

Relationships do not grow under pressure and work, they grow under positive, enjoyable experiences. You are making this work, when it should not be.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Step one...end ALL contact with OW...completely, forever. Draft an NC letter with your wife's approval, and send it to OW. Make it clear that it's over between the both of you...in any and all fashions. No affair, no friendship...nothing.

 

Well, I've not done this. I know that it's the recommendation. Perhaps denial; I rationalize my way out of it. An alcoholic can't say "I'll never be around a drink again;" a smoker can't say "I'll never get another whiff of second hand smoke." You have to be strong enough / committed enough to experience the temptation and decline to pursue it.

 

But... Anybody buying this?

 

Step two...get a marriage counselor that can work with the both of you to identify your emotional needs, and help both of you work through how to meet them. It sounds like you've identified some of hers, and have started to meet them...but it sounds as tho your wife still needs to do that on her part. Pick up a copy of "Surviving an Affair" by Dr Harley...that should help you work thru the "process" here.

 

Did the counseling. I think you're about right about our current status. I don't feel like I can ask or compel that at this stage.

 

Step three...help your wife work thru personal recovery from your affair. Become an "open book"...show her that you're not cheating, help her to learn how you managed to cheat, and help her set up safeguards so that she can see that you're NOT cheating anymore. This is critical to rebuild her trust in you.

 

Did this too - Financial records going back as far as I could, logins and passwords for credit cards, frequent traveler accounts, mobile phone, email, computer, etc. I also offered to sign a post nup.

 

Another concern / tell here... She didn't really pursue any of this; wasn't really interested. Perhaps she was secretly relieved? Perhaps she was already gone..?

 

Pick up a copy of "His Needs/Her Needs"...use the EN questionnaire in there as a basis to help each other learn how to meet your respective needs, and come up with compromises on how to do so. Your marriage counselor should be a big part of this as well.

 

Is this similar to the Love Languages concept? Better? Different?

 

OWN the recovery from your affair. Don't leave it to your wife...take responsibility and accountability for it.

 

Not 100% sure what you mean... This is (maybe) one of the things that I've done wrong over the last year (in addition to indulging her request for us to move and me to travel more). I think that I've been way more into this than her, and too pushy, too inclined to talk "How are we doing?" I've been needy and codependent in a way I'm not with anyone else. When she started ACOA she started talking about barriers, and along with some advice on this board and resources found on this board, I took that as a cue to back off.

 

Anyway I think that I can work on me. But I'm backing off letting her work on her.

 

Realize that recovery from this is a marathon...not a sprint. You're not going to be recover tomorrow...or next week. It typically can take YEARS to recover from the damage of an affair...and add in additional time to fix the damage that's accrued in your marriage that led up to that point as well.

 

I guess that's right... Maybe this is the hard part. It seemed like things were getting better, for a while, on our way and I was working so hard... For maybe three-four months (?), things were better than they'd been in years. But then they cooled. And then they fell off a cliff. Now we're at the bottom of that cliff, having taken maybe a few steps back up from the very bottom.

 

Suppose it's not a straight line, either.

[TrustInYourself]

Fair enough...if your posting here is indication of a true, honest desire to change....let's go from that premise.

 

Step one...end ALL contact with OW...completely, forever. Draft an NC letter with your wife's approval, and send it to OW. Make it clear that it's over between the both of you...in any and all fashions. No affair, no friendship...nothing.

 

Step two...get a marriage counselor that can work with the both of you to identify your emotional needs, and help both of you work through how to meet them. It sounds like you've identified some of hers, and have started to meet them...but it sounds as tho your wife still needs to do that on her part. Pick up a copy of "Surviving an Affair" by Dr Harley...that should help you work thru the "process" here.

 

Step three...help your wife work thru personal recovery from your affair. Become an "open book"...show her that you're not cheating, help her to learn how you managed to cheat, and help her set up safeguards so that she can see that you're NOT cheating anymore. This is critical to rebuild her trust in you.

 

Pick up a copy of "His Needs/Her Needs"...use the EN questionaire in there as a basis to help each other learn how to meet your respective needs, and come up with compromises on how to do so. Your marriage counselor should be a big part of this as well.

 

OWN the recovery from your affair. Don't leave it to your wife...take responsibility and accountablity for it.

 

Realize that recovery from this is a marathon...not a sprint. You're not going to be recover tomorrow...or next week. It typically can take YEARS to recover from the damage of an affair...and add in additional time to fix the damage that's accrued in your marriage that led up to that point as well.

 

All you can do is your best to fix things...both the things that existed in your marriage all along, and the damage done as a result of your affair(s).

 

Hope that helps.

 

Owl, disagree with you. He's been taking too much accountability and responsibility. Too much responsibility on one person leads to a jacked up dynamic. He's the controller and initiator, when his wife should be actively participating.

[Owl]

Owl, disagree with you. He's been taking too much accountability and responsibility. Too much responsibility on one person leads to a jacked up dynamic. He's the controller and initiator, when his wife should be actively participating.

 

This could be the case.

 

His wife may actually not be interested in recovery. She may have already 'moved on' emotionally, and just be 'faking it' for now.

 

If that's the case...there's nothing for it but divorce. He can't force her to reconcile, no more than she can force him.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

This could be the case.

 

His wife may actually not be interested in recovery. She may have already 'moved on' emotionally, and just be 'faking it' for now.

 

If that's the case...there's nothing for it but divorce. He can't force her to reconcile, no more than she can force him.

 

She's not faking it. She's (finally?) being honest about her lack of feeling and lack of commitment. She shares some concerns with me esp. our kids.

 

Her position, right now, is something like "Look I have my own issues to address before I can address our issues. I'm gonna work on those and I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk about us." And... The first round of marriage counseling didn't really take because she wasn't open / honest about herself in that setting.

 

This seems fair enough, I guess?

 

I'm trying to be cool and lay back and wait... But I can't stop thinking and analyzing and second-guessing, too. Control freak, for sure. I do think that I've let go. But if I think about it she hasn't felt it for a long long time and the only reason we had three-four good months was because it was in her face that I might be gone (her own instinctive, emotional response) but now she's had some time to think about it and maybe that's not such a bad thing from her perspective.

 

Interesting, too, her initial response to my affairs and discussion of divorce was less "I love you how could you hurt me like this" and more "How could you embarrass me like this" and "If you're gonna do it, do it while I'm young and I can still find someone else..."

 

Anyway whatever we are, we both made each other this way. Not too much blame going around right now. But I'm trying to figure out if we're just too far gone, if I should keep trying or if I'm just kidding myself about our chances. I like the thought "keep trying until you know you don't want to try..." But maybe that's delusional and codependent, too.

 

I will say... Just typing out all these notes, organizing my thoughts, getting them down... Is helpful in it's own way.

 

Responses and others thoughts are gravy. Thanks all.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

Relationships do not grow under pressure and work, they grow under positive, enjoyable experiences. You are making this work, when it should not be.

 

Really? "Working" on a relationships is wrong? Is this a semantics issue? If I'm missing some sort of eureka insight, please share. But I though that "working" on a relationship was pretty standard. Lots of people out here seem to think so? Our counselor seemed to think so. And so on...

 

Falling in lust is easy. Staying in love... Guess I thought that the prevailing wisdom was that you do have to work, practice, maintain...

 

Can't be all work, of course. Working is < creating pressure, I think? But certainly some work is OK? I've worked much harder for much less important things. Seems like a little effort is the least that I can do here.

 

And I'm not saying that I don't sometimes enjoy it. Work can be an enjoyable experience, can't it? I enjoy the work when I can feel or see some results. Work is frustrating when it feels like it's throwaway, for nothing.

 

But what am I missing..?

[TrustInYourself]

Really? "Working" on a relationships is wrong? Is this a semantics issue? If I'm missing some sort of eureka insight, please share. But I though that "working" on a relationship was pretty standard. Lots of people out here seem to think so? Our counselor seemed to think so. And so on...

 

Falling in lust is easy. Staying in love... Guess I thought that the prevailing wisdom was that you do have to work, practice, maintain...

 

Can't be all work, of course. Working is < creating pressure, I think? But certainly some work is OK? I've worked much harder for much less important things. Seems like a little effort is the least that I can do here.

 

And I'm not saying that I don't sometimes enjoy it. Work can be an enjoyable experience, can't it? I enjoy the work when I can feel or see some results. Work is frustrating when it feels like it's throwaway, for nothing.

 

But what am I missing..?

 

You don't build love by discussing problems. When you first met, did you start discussing the problems with your wife from initial first impressions? When you fell in love, were you talking about languages of love and how you both speak different languages?

 

Sure, you have matured and the situation has changed, but that does not change what your approach should be.

 

When my wife moved out, I argued and plead for her to consider working it out. We discussed why things did not work, why she felt like she needed to leave, why she no longer loved me, etc. We went around in circles for quite some time.

 

My wife is a "Quality Time" person as well and I was neglecting her. What you are doing by trying to "work" it out, is creating a poor, weak excuse for "Quality Time". If you call discussing problems and going in circles, "Quality Time" then you're weird.

 

What does she like to do? What does she do? What is her identity? If there is no answer, she's lived her entire life for you and the children. Hence, the depression.

 

If you can't relate or understand, that's because you have your own life now that doesn't even truly involve her. Your life is work. Was the affair something that occured while you were on a business trip? Do you only feel alive when you are away from home? When are you happiest? How can you translate that happines to home?

 

Many marriage counselors tell you this is work to do. That's a generic answer. The work you have to do is self inflection. Understanding your role in this dynamic. Understanding what actions you need to take to make yourself happier. Not what you can do to change your wife and help her.

 

You're both carrying a great deal of weight in this marriage. You're dealing with years of issues that can not be undone in moments. This is going to take effort in one department and that's psychologically and spiritually. It's going to take work, in the sense that she's got to open up, get a life, live it up and you've got to be willing to support her. She's got to shake this depression. That's work in a sense.

 

As far as what you can do? You are a passenger on this train. The more the conductor (your wife) ignores her surroundings, the more you try and get the conductors attention, the more she ignores.

 

I wouldn't call this a co-dependent situation, although there may be traces of codependence. It's more like a situation where your wife feels out of control, unloved, no life, no future, no past, burdened, sad, etc. and without any power to change it. Your attempts and probable success at addressing those conditions, increase her inability to feel like she has any real control.

 

You're going to have to let go, which is what your intuition is telling you to do. Of course your moral obligation and responsible side is telling you to hold onto your marriage.

 

You're in a conundrum, no doubt.

[Focus_On_The_Process]

You don't build love by discussing problems. When you first met, did you start discussing the problems with your wife from initial first impressions? When you fell in love, were you talking about languages of love and how you both speak different languages?

 

Sure, you have matured and the situation has changed, but that does not change what your approach should be.

 

When my wife moved out, I argued and plead for her to consider working it out. We discussed why things did not work, why she felt like she needed to leave, why she no longer loved me, etc. We went around in circles for quite some time.

 

My wife is a "Quality Time" person as well and I was neglecting her. What you are doing by trying to "work" it out, is creating a poor, weak excuse for "Quality Time". If you call discussing problems and going in circles, "Quality Time" then you're weird.

 

What does she like to do? What does she do? What is her identity? If there is no answer, she's lived her entire life for you and the children. Hence, the depression.

 

If you can't relate or understand, that's because you have your own life now that doesn't even truly involve her. Your life is work. Was the affair something that occurred while you were on a business trip? Do you only feel alive when you are away from home? When are you happiest? How can you translate that happines to home?

 

Many marriage counselors tell you this is work to do. That's a generic answer. The work you have to do is self inflection. Understanding your role in this dynamic. Understanding what actions you need to take to make yourself happier. Not what you can do to change your wife and help her.

 

You're both carrying a great deal of weight in this marriage. You're dealing with years of issues that can not be undone in moments. This is going to take effort in one department and that's psychologically and spiritually. It's going to take work, in the sense that she's got to open up, get a life, live it up and you've got to be willing to support her. She's got to shake this depression. That's work in a sense.

 

As far as what you can do? You are a passenger on this train. The more the conductor (your wife) ignores her surroundings, the more you try and get the conductors attention, the more she ignores.

 

I wouldn't call this a co-dependent situation, although there may be traces of codependence. It's more like a situation where your wife feels out of control, unloved, no life, no future, no past, burdened, sad, etc. and without any power to change it. Your attempts and probable success at addressing those conditions, increase her inability to feel like she has any real control.

 

You're going to have to let go, which is what your intuition is telling you to do. Of course your moral obligation and responsible side is telling you to hold onto your marriage.

 

You're in a conundrum, no doubt.

 

OK; thanks TIY. I think we're on the same page. I'm not "working" on things in any of the needy, confrontational, arguing / pleading ways that you mention. For me the work I'm talking about is introspection and hitting this board and generally working myself, not her.

 

Not that I didn't at first; I did. But as I've mentioned I found some posts and references out here, read through a few other threads, one around "34 rules" really stood out... In any case I've changed things up since Thanksgiving. I've laid way back, in behavior and emotion I think (?). I'm not crowding her at all. Small talk, helping her out, smiling and laughing and charming, respecting her "boundaries," and (perhaps most difficult) not responding or rising to the little argument or annoyances she fires my way. Just grinning and bearing...

 

Anyway I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm cornering her and confronting; far from it. I read lots of your stuff on other boards. Took it to heart I think.

 

But there's more...