Wife wants me to end friendship with co-worker

[JamesM]

 

No women wants their husband confiding in another women about her, their marriage, or anything good or bad. There is a line in the sand and even if you weren't in an EA before (which I doubt) the second you talked to Jill about your wife, marriage problems and going to a MC - YOU crossed the line into an EA.

 

 

While I agree with most of what you said and I do think that this relationship is borderline EA, I don't think this statement I quoted above applies to all women.

 

I have discussed my wife and our marriage with a number of women over time. And by far the majority of them (if not all) knew loud and clear that my wife and our marriage were number one in my life. It is incredibly rare that a woman knows any bad things about my wife. In fact as I think about it, while I may have shared our marital problems, I do not think I have ever shared the weaknesses of my wife IRL. Sharing marital problems with the idea of getting another opinion on how to solve them is a far cry from sharing them with the idea that these problems are unsolvable.

 

My wife has never had a problem with me discussing my marriage with another woman (albeit it has been rare that I did)...as long as my wife considers the woman trustworthy. Take my cubicle mate of many years ago. We shared a number of things about our spouses and marriages. For instance, we both were in low sex marriages. I told "Jane"...she told me. I told my wife of our conversations. Hey, we even went on overnight business trips together (with other people). BUT...the big thing was that my wife trusted "Jane." She felt that it would never go farther. Could it have? Maybe, but as "Jane" said to me once when the subject did arise, "It never will because I like your wife too much."

 

That is the key. I think MM can have women as friends as long as these friends do not become (a) more important than the wife...as in the relationship must be defended to the wife, or (b) kept a secret from the wife, or © continued despite the dislike of the relationship by the wife.

 

And I remember my wife asking me if I minded her sharing our problems at the time with another guy she worked with, and I did not mind as I knew who he was.

 

The openness and approval of such relationships make them "okay." However, if the relationship moves beyond a simple friendship, then all can be lost.

[carhill]

Can you clarify your bad feeling and the suggestion to resist such "requests?"

Certainly I dropped him as a friend and have never spoken to him after meeting him the day after. I want to harm him physically. The problem is we still have some friends in common and every once and a while he comes up, but we have never seen each other thankfully

I'll just ask you if you had an honest talk with your former best friend about this incident. If not, you might find (or would have found) the discourse revealing. As some LS women have commented to me privately (worrying about me), men are so naive sometimes. Men use brute strength (aggressiveness/violence, etc) to mold the world. Women, lacking such strength, use "influence" of men to mold their world. I won't use the word "manipulate" since that sounds disingenuous and engenders malicious intent, but the process does exist. Think about that simple action at the wedding and all of the repercussions thereafter. Pretty amazing, huh?

 

Get Jack and Jill in the same room as your W and yourself, pour some wine and sit back and see what evolves. I'm suggesting this because I've done it (been in your situation) and it has cleared the air. I believe you when you describe your situation with Jill. It's something you feel (the non-sexual/non-romantic intent). You're not jealous of her and Jack. That's critical (if true).

 

Secondarily, and this might apply to both of you, I worry when you say your W has few friends. I'm going to guess that she has few female friends. There's a reason for this and it lies within her. It's part of the same psychology which created the wedding incident (regardless of who was "at fault") and the insecurities about your friend Jill.

 

Most here say to just dump Jill. That's good advice if you want your marriage to succeed in its current state. Do you? Note I said current state. That's the key phrase. That's where the bad feeling is coming from....

[travelgirl]

While I agree with most of what you said and I do think that this relationship is borderline EA, I don't think this statement I quoted above applies to all women.

 

I have discussed my wife and our marriage with a number of women over time. And by far the majority of them (if not all) knew loud and clear that my wife and our marriage were number one in my life. It is incredibly rare that a woman knows any bad things about my wife. In fact as I think about it, while I may have shared our marital problems, I do not think I have ever shared the weaknesses of my wife IRL. Sharing marital problems with the idea of getting another opinion on how to solve them is a far cry from sharing them with the idea that these problems are unsolvable.

 

My wife has never had a problem with me discussing my marriage with another woman (albeit it has been rare that I did)...as long as my wife considers the woman trustworthy. Take my cubicle mate of many years ago. We shared a number of things about our spouses and marriages. For instance, we both were in low sex marriages. I told "Jane"...she told me. I told my wife of our conversations. Hey, we even went on overnight business trips together (with other people). BUT...the big thing was that my wife trusted "Jane." She felt that it would never go farther. Could it have? Maybe, but as "Jane" said to me once when the subject did arise, "It never will because I like your wife too much."

 

That is the key. I think MM can have women as friends as long as these friends do not become (a) more important than the wife...as in the relationship must be defended to the wife, or (b) kept a secret from the wife, or © continued despite the dislike of the relationship by the wife.

 

And I remember my wife asking me if I minded her sharing our problems at the time with another guy she worked with, and I did not mind as I knew who he was.

 

The openness and approval of such relationships make them "okay." However, if the relationship moves beyond a simple friendship, then all can be lost.

 

Okay I agree with this. I was the one fighting with Mr. Lucky on another thread about opposite sex friends because I have had a few for 20-30 years now. Close ones that my H has no problem with. He has a close female friend that I know he has asked for advice about me on occasion. She is a good friend to him but is also friendly with me. I have no problem with that.

 

My point about no women wants her husband talking to another women about those things, I meant it was BECAUSE of that women - in his case Jill. He went back and told Jill their marriage is rocky because of her. Not to talk to a true friend to get positive feedback and a "what should I do to fix my marriage" mentality. He was leaning on her for emotional support and keeping this from his wife - that is the problem. And the fact that Jill didn't or hasn't back off and neither has he, shows me that neither one of them are really true friends with the other to begin with. It is something else. Obsession, emotional, sexual attraction, flirtation, ego boosting - only they know, but it isn't an innocent co-worker friendship and it has signs to destroy both of their marriages.

[whichwayisup]

Can you clarify your bad feeling and the suggestion to resist such "requests?"

Certainly I dropped him as a friend and have never spoken to him after meeting him the day after. I want to harm him physically. The problem is we still have some friends in common and every once and a while he comes up, but we have never seen each other thankfully

 

Out of all the post reply's on your thread, this is the one you respond to? Everyone has given you some great advice/insight and I, for one, would like to know what you think of what's been said.

 

Also, your anger towards your exfriend IS understandable, but I have to ask, is it possible that this 'friendship' with Jill is your subconscious way of getting back at your wife for kissing/making out with your so called buddy?

 

Start putting your wife first, otherwise you can kiss your marriage goodbye.

[Owl]

Can you clarify your bad feeling and the suggestion to resist such "requests?"

Certainly I dropped him as a friend and have never spoken to him after meeting him the day after. I want to harm him physically. The problem is we still have some friends in common and every once and a while he comes up, but we have never seen each other thankfully

 

I'm curious...why did you choose to ONLY respond to the one person who appeared to support your desire to keep "Jill" as a friend?

 

Note that the vast majority of other posters are telling you a single message...what you're doing is going to destroy your marriage if you continue.

 

But you didn't respond at all to any of those viewpoints...only to the one that seemed to support the way you'd like to see this work out (I believe).

[travelgirl]

Get Jack and Jill in the same room as your W and yourself, pour some wine and sit back and see what evolves. I'm suggesting this because I've done it (been in your situation) and it has cleared the air. I believe you when you describe your situation with Jill. It's something you feel (the non-sexual/non-romantic intent). You're not jealous of her and Jack. That's critical (if true).

 

Hmm, but who is to say that Jill wouldn't be jealous, or his wife still gets jealous - or Jill's H sees her a little off and he gets jealous. Even if you believe OP's intentions (which I am not sure I do) there are four people in this situation, not just one. If one of them is shaky of the situation then all bets are off that their "friendship" can continue.

 

I have a feeling this get together would be similar to the scene in Little Children.

[angie2443]

Sharing marital problems with the idea of getting another opinion on how to solve them is a far cry from sharing them with the idea that these problems are unsolvable.

 

 

What I have learned is that marital problems need to be solved between the two people involved in the marriage. I understand that the intentions might not be bad in the beginning of sharing your marital problems with third parties, however, only your partner and you can truely resolve the problems in the marriage. If you're trusting someone to have a better fix on how to solve the problems between you and your wife, you're relationship has a problem.

[travelgirl]

I'm curious...why did you choose to ONLY respond to the one person who appeared to support your desire to keep "Jill" as a friend?

 

Note that the vast majority of other posters are telling you a single message...what you're doing is going to destroy your marriage if you continue.

 

But you didn't respond at all to any of those viewpoints...only to the one that seemed to support the way you'd like to see this work out (I believe).

 

I was thinking the same things Owl. I am curious for the next post....

[Athena]

It certainly would be nice if you could give your posters feedback about how you are taking the advice given to you. I for one was waiting for this.

[angie2443]

Get Jack and Jill in the same room as your W and yourself, pour some wine and sit back and see what evolves. I'm suggesting this because I've done it (been in your situation) and it has cleared the air. I believe you when you describe your situation with Jill. It's something you feel (the non-sexual/non-romantic intent). You're not jealous of her and Jack. That's critical (if true).

 

The problem with this idea, IMO, is that when you all get together, you and your "friend" will instinctively tone things down. You know what to hide and the fact that your wife is present will act as a temperary buffer to the feelings you and your "friend" share.

 

You are going to rip your wife apart with this. If you have an ounce of respect left for her, then tell her that you value your "friend" over her and let her decide if she wants to be in a marriage in which she is in third place.

[carhill]

The OP isn't ready to accept the overwhelming advice offered. This is the key difference from the psych work on LS and that in the space of a professional psychologist. The professional knows how to pace the interaction. I was resistant, just like the OP appears to be.

 

OP, make that MC appointment today. I see precious little in your post about the real state of your marriage. I think it's important to focus on that.

 

The upside of this process is now, just as I typed this, I can receive a call from my "friend", talk with her in front of my wife and there's no issues, no ambiguity, and she sees the friend for who she is. Is a process, perhaps not the OP's path, but one alternative of many

[walkermark]

I'll just ask you if you had an honest talk with your former best friend about this incident. If not, you might find (or would have found) the discourse revealing. ... Think about that simple action at the wedding and all of the repercussions thereafter. Pretty amazing, huh?

I don't think it's possible to have an honest talk. The talk we had was not helpful and There is just way too much hatred on my side. I see your point, but that one thing is the worst thing I have ever experienced. One friend that knows told me I should eventually forgive him. There is NO way. There is nothing he could say.

 

Get Jack and Jill in the same room as your W and yourself, pour some wine and sit back and see what evolves. I'm suggesting this because I've done it (been in your situation) and it has cleared the air. I believe you when you describe your situation with Jill. It's something you feel (the non-sexual/non-romantic intent). You're not jealous of her and Jack. That's critical (if true).

I would really like this. He is a great guy and I like him a lot. There is no jealousy at all in fact the opposite. I really admire them as a couple because like my wife and I, they seem like a couple that was meant for each other and seem like a couple that will make it last for the long haul.

 

Secondarily, and this might apply to both of you, I worry when you say your W has few friends. I'm going to guess that she has few female friends. There's a reason for this and it lies within her. It's part of the same psychology which created the wedding incident (regardless of who was "at fault") and the insecurities about your friend Jill.

I do really wish she had more friends - I wish we both had more friends. To me just because a friend means something, it doesn't mean your spouse means less.

 

Most here say to just dump Jill. That's good advice if you want your marriage to succeed in its current state. Do you? Note I said current state. That's the key phrase. That's where the bad feeling is coming from....

Well of course I want it to be better, but because I know that Jill will never be more than a friend and will never be closer to me than my wife, I don't think her removal will really change anything except to maybe make her think she "dodged this one" If our marriage is bad (I don't think it is) and I am looking for someone else (I am certainly not) someone else eventually will come along. That will never happen.

 

P.S. Don't think that with a low post count that I am a LS complete newbie. I have spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of hours here reading posts over the years. I know what to look out for and I know how things can progress and happen without realizing. I also know that if Jill ever did cross the line or started to have feelings, that I would drop her as a friend. Both for her marriage and for mine.

[walkermark]

It certainly would be nice if you could give your posters feedback about how you are taking the advice given to you. I for one was waiting for this.

I am just very slow typing and processing. I would like to reply to all but I think I need to reply more as a whole or in general. I do appreciate the advice and I feel privileged to see some of the familiar names offering their thoughts.

[JamesM]

If you're trusting someone to have a better fix on how to solve the problems between you and your wife, you're relationship has a problem.

 

Hmmmm....there goes the marriage counseling field. And at least we agree on this....if you need help in your marriage, then you do have a problem.

 

Funny thing is...that is why people do seek help for anything...there is a problem.

 

I disagree to a degree. What one can obtain from someone else is insight and advice on how to proceed. If my wife and I have no sex (I will pick the most dangerous area) and I confide in another woman, then she may be able to tell me that "Well, one of the areas you could look into is your wife's medications. Do any of them cause a low libido?" And if I had never thought of that, then her advice may have actually saved the marriage...even though we as a couple must handle this ourselves. Or she may say that I should consider her work schedule or my lack of romance....and on and on. All of these suggestions may lead to solutions...which may fix the marriage.

 

So, advice from others which comes only after confiding in others can be very helpful to one's marriage.

 

BUT....when confiding in another woman causes me to seek the other woman for more time with her rather than driving me back to my wife, then the relationship with that OW becomes very unhealthy and dangerous.

 

So it seems that Jill has become dangerous for the marriage.

[carhill]

Well of course I want it to be better, but because I know that Jill will never be more than a friend and will never be closer to me than my wife, I don't think her removal will really change anything except to maybe make her think she "dodged this one" If our marriage is bad (I don't think it is) and I am looking for someone else (I am certainly not) someone else eventually will come along. That will never happen.

 

Good information. Right now, at this moment, do you think Jill is an "inappropriate emotional attachment"? Why (if yes or no)? IMO, for health going forward, those reasons and motivation (regardless of direction) have to come from within you to effect lasting change.

 

If you made an appointment today for a MC introductory session this week, what would your W say? I recall, when we first contacted our MC, he fit us in (cancellations happen) in a couple of days after first contact. I think you're at a key point right now. Yes, I know Christmas is next week and there are all kinds of obligations looming. That's precisely why I'm suggesting it If you want clarity on this issue and other issues in your M (I have an instinct that this is just a symptom of other things), get going

[walkermark]

You and Jill are so close that you find it comfortable enough to discuss the intimate and private details of your marriage with her. Although you are only" work friends", which your wife has proven to have no previous issue with (Sue)...your wife has been honest and told you that she feels uncomfortable and threatened by this friendship. Clearly, she senses after so many years of marriage, that you and Jill are particularly close.

Just because you dont understand it doesnt make her feel less threatened. It is in part, your job to make your wife feel secure. Since she has no issue with other female work friends - I would have to ask why you dont just give this one to her, give up the friendship.

I would agree that Jill and I are close...Friends if we were not, dropping her as a friend would be easier for sure. I suppose I feel like if I give up this one for her then what's next. What's the next thing to go? It's not going to make our marriage better. I am not going to love her more when she takes away another friend. She took away one by kissing him, now she's taking this one away to make her feel better. Both make me feel like cr*p.

 

Do you and Jill talk to each other outside of work, see each other outside of work? There isnt really any reason for you to spend your working hours with a work friend and then add freetime to that as well. Men and women , once married, often do not have friends of the opposite sex. If so, the friends become friends of both partners. Those that do not are not seen with any frequency.

There is No talking or seeing each other out of work. I really want openness and inclusion of our spouses in our friendship. I would love for them to be friends and to be closer friends with Jack.

Your wife's lack of friends is not reason to defend your closeness to other women. You seem to think that your wife may be jealous that you have people to discuss your marriage problems with and she does not. I think rathar than being jealous, she may be very frustrated that you are not discussing them with her. Well, you have discussed them - she told you what she was having a problem with and you have decided her feelings are wrong. You have decided that although she told you why she feels this way...there is a different reason having nothing to do with you (her own lack of friends). This is crazy talk.

Perhaps this came across wrong here and possibly to her. I do understand her feelings, they are feelings and they are not wrong. She has said that she wishes she had people that are friends she could talk to. Not specifically about marriage problems. As far as who and how much I have discussed the problems with, it has primarily been with my wife. Second would be one male friend, Third with Sue and then Jill. I am not running to her with every last detail. She knows from a while ago that my wife wants us to be more casual friends and that recently I thought of going to MC. I don't think of MC as a sign that my marriage is in trouble. Jill knows that.

 

You are considering talking to Jills husband, who so far, doesnt seem to have any problem. You want to pre-empt any issue he may have:

"Hey Bob!! Just so you know, I'm not banging your wife!! Just in case, you know, that may have popped into your head!" This is more crazy making.

OK, I see the point. It's not that there's nothing. It just seems like a more general "concern" about her more than specific to me. She does want to talk to him, but wanted a "reason" Jill certainly talks less about me to Jack, something that If I had done (talk less about Jill) I would not be here. I talked about everything mainly because secret friendships and secret spending time together was a red flag for EA according to my reading here.

 

Maybe your wife would be more comfortable if you had guy friends. The added benefit would be that you would see the extra drama you create as really chick like.

I have guy friends - Maybe if she didn't stick her tongue down the throat of my guy friends I would have more...

[angie2443]

Hmmmm....there goes the marriage counseling field. And at least we agree on this....if you need help in your marriage, then you do have a problem.

.

 

Wrong! Marriage counseling is very differant than confiding your marriage in a third party that has an allience with you. Any friend that is only a friend with one party in a marriage will have a loyalty to that one party and not their spouse. A marriage counselor is (hopefully) an unbiased, uninterested third party that sits with both partners in a marriage and tries to help them work it out. Also, a marriage counselor is supposed to be trained in counseling couples and in keeping an emotional distance from the couple involved. A friend, and even most family members can't really do that.

[travelgirl]

I am just very slow typing and processing. I would like to reply to all but I think I need to reply more as a whole or in general. I do appreciate the advice and I feel privileged to see some of the familiar names offering their thoughts.

 

Then why do you keep writing back to carhill and no one else? It is obvious you read the other posts.

 

Well of course I want it to be better, but because I know that Jill will never be more than a friend and will never be closer to me than my wife, I don't think her removal will really change anything except to maybe make her think she "dodged this one" If our marriage is bad (I don't think it is) and I am looking for someone else (I am certainly not) someone else eventually will come along. That will never happen.

 

Well why would your W think she "dodged this one." I am confused. A loving open marriage has no secrets. You are confiding in another women about your W and problems BECAUSE of that women. Your W has every reason to be concerned and you lack of acknowledgment to her is undermining and is causing a problem in your marriage whether you believe that or not. From your post it sounds like you are playing up your marriage to be fine. I think you are resentful that your wife is making you choose and there were underlying issues in your marriage that attracted you to the needs you are getting from Jill in the first place, however innocent you think they are. You aren't looking at the big picture here, only the one with Jill in it. She is a blip on the radar - your wife is your family and the one you should be concerned about.

 

Let me ask you this. What if Jill's H went to her and said he was uncomfortable with your friendship. If she came to you and told you this, would you still continue the friendship? Would she still continue the friendship?

[carhill]

I have guy friends - Maybe if she didn't stick her tongue down the throat of my guy friends I would have more...

 

This is unprocessed hurt from years ago. It's time to work through this. Make that appointment

 

A key dynamic we embraced in MC was the respect for history and ascribing its relevance, but not dwelling on it. IOW, it's in the room, hanging on the wall, but not in a place of prominence. Embracing this dynamic psychologically was a key breakthrough for myself. It is how a cognitive process evolved into an emotional setpoint. A fundamental change in my viewpoint.

 

Do you want to change your perspective on what you just wrote?

[angie2443]

I wanted to add, if you do go to marriage counseling, make sure the counselor is trained in MC (many counselors will do MC even though they are not trained for it) and make sure you are both confortable with the MC. Otherwise, the MC can do more harm than good.

[carhill]

OP, good advice there on the MC. In our case, a client of my wife's who is a clinical psychologist referred us to a male colleague. At first I didn't like him because he challenged a lot of my fundamental beliefs but later I saw the wisdom in this, that being the impetus to examination. He was (and is) very good at what he does. If either of you has "baggage" (e.g. difficult pasts/family histories), I'd definitely recommend a psychologist as a MC. Good luck!

[JamesM]

Angie, good point, but rather than belabor the point and move off topic, I will say one more thing briefly...having a friend to confide troubles in...and that includes marital troubles can be very helpful. And doing so with another person of the opposite sex can be even more helpful. However, when doing so, one needs to be careful that the friend does not become more than a friend.

 

 

I would agree that Jill and I are close...

 

I suppose I feel like if I give up this one for her then what's next. What's the next thing to go? It's not going to make our marriage better. I am not going to love her more when she takes away another friend. She took away one by kissing him, now she's taking this one away to make her feel better. Both make me feel like cr*p.

 

I don't think of MC as a sign that my marriage is in trouble. Jill knows that.

 

 

I talked about everything mainly because secret friendships and secret spending time together was a red flag for EA according to my reading here.

 

 

I have guy friends - Maybe if she didn't stick her tongue down the throat of my guy friends I would have more...

 

I question if your marriage is as good as you say it is. While outwardly it may appear to be good, inwardly (at least for you), there is much unresolved issues from her "kissing affair" as well there would be for most of us.

 

Now she wants YOU to give up another friend and yet she does not give up anything for you? I understand.

 

I agree with carhill...MC may be more beneficial than simply a way to solve THIS issue.

[Babylonia]

With nearly everyone here, I agree you're on your way to a sexual love affair. Either you are really blind about your feelings (in which case you need a psychiatrist) or you are innocent as to where these ventures of yours end up: in a bed with your little light o' love. However, I'm not condemning you. I had a friend, my best friend, too, and I had an affair; my husband either knew nothing or paid no attention. He was having one, too, I later learned. I had an affair with my best friend because my husband ignored me sexually--and for a long time, too, he had been ignoring me, and my friend knew all about my longings, yearnings, desires, and so forth. He unaccountably ignored me-- I know how attractive I am; I have had no difficulties finding partners, ever. My friend was really desirable, too, and that had always thrilled me. Once I made up my mind to go ahead, things went really fast. My husband never learned, because I never told him, and apparently he thought I was so light-headed as not to want a sex life. We carried on right under his nose, often kissing and petting in the kitchen then appearing apart and unconcerned and indifferent at the doorway. This was very arousing. I'm quite sure there are a myriad of secondary satisfactions you're getting from having a "female friend" as your wife pines away with jealousy... You're just not admitting them. Think about this, for one thing (there are others, to think about, too): what if the time you spend with your girl friend were to be spent instead with your wife... On the other hand, why don't you find her a male friend to keep her company? Hmmm. Now, how does that feel?

[JamesM]

On the other hand, why don't you find her a male friend to keep her company? Hmmm. Now, how does [/i]that feel?

 

Good point.

 

I wondered that, too. Do you trust her to say faithful?

[carhill]

Interesting dynamic. My wife has always had male friends and clients. I've always trusted her implicitly, even around her exH's (she has 2 of them) and old BF's. That trust came from within me. MC clarified the why's (my stable family history). OP, how do you feel about that (the comment from JamesM)? What's your history here? I think that has some place on the "wall".