Wife wants me to end friendship with co-worker

[jwi71]

I would agree that Jill and I are close...Friends if we were not, dropping her as a friend would be easier for sure. I suppose I feel like if I give up this one for her then what's next. What's the next thing to go? It's not going to make our marriage better. I am not going to love her more when she takes away another friend. She took away one by kissing him, now she's taking this one away to make her feel better. Both make me feel like cr*p.

 

This isn't about friends at all. Its about his W's betrayal, the loss of a friend and now the loss of another friend. His closest friend. This repeats itself below.

 

There is No talking or seeing each other out of work. I really want openness and inclusion of our spouses in our friendship. I would love for them to be friends and to be closer friends with Jack.

 

Then do it. Make it happen. What is keeping you?

I thought of going to MC. I don't think of MC as a sign that my marriage is in trouble. Jill knows that.

 

Lost me. In your opening post in this thread you unequivocally state you are in MC. Are you?

 

And going to MC IS a sign your M is in distress. Though you may have spoken with your W about her betrayal ,it still lingers. You haven't let it go after 8 years. Its still there.

 

 

I have guy friends - Maybe if she didn't stick her tongue down the throat of my guy friends I would have more...

 

Here's more of that pain and anger. You know, it was 8 years ago. But I am willing to bet it feels like it happened yesterday. You haven't moved past it. And in this MC can help.

 

I happen to think you do have boundaries set with Jill. And I think this may, in some part, exacerbate this anger/pain at your W. YOU have boundaries and your W does not. SHE cost you your friend and betrayed you in the process.

 

If you are in MC, switch counselors. If not, go. The M is in jeopardy and I think its deeper than you let on.

[Owl]

The more I've read of this thread, the more I'm convinced of one thing.

 

You never recovered from your wife's infidelity. Neither your marriage, nor you personally have healed from that incident yet.

 

Because of that...you still have a lot of anger and resentment towards your wife...and are using that to justify 'hurting her back' by refusing to consider the damage you're likely to do by maintaining this friendship.

 

You feel that she "owes you this".

 

Sorry...but that attitude is going to cause your marriage to go screaming down in flames.

 

Here's my suggestions:

 

1. Marriage counseling. Specifically, you need a counselor who can help the two of you deal with the damages to your marriage (and to yourselves) from her infidelity.

 

2. Pick up a copy of "Not Just Friends". Good information on EA's.

 

3. Pick up a copy of "Surviving an Affair"...and look at what steps were missed as part of your marital recovery from your wife's infidelity. Look also for the warning signs of your own situation.

 

4. Work with your MC on a gameplan to mitigate damage to your marriage and a good way to handle the situation with Jill and your wife.

 

I'm curious...what steps did you and your wife take to recover your marriage from before?

[jwi71]

I'd like to elaborate a bit on what I said and what OWL said.

 

Jill is a weapon. You stab your W with her. Its revenge. You want her to feel the pain you felt 8 years ago. Stab, stab, stab.

 

I asked why you never went out - is it because that would blunt Jill as a weapon against your W? You aren't telling your W of Jill out of respect - the opposite. You do it to inflict pain. Stab, stab, stab.

 

I get it. I don't agree with you but I understand it.

 

You gotta stop. Even if you don;t want the M to continue - you gotta stop.

 

Either you go out as a foursome (not recommended) or you stop "seeing" Jill. And YOU did that. Not your W.

 

Good luck....

[taylor]

Just some random points from the OP's comments:

 

1. Your wife did not cost you a friendship. Yes, she put her tongue in his mouth as she kissed him, but he had to open his mouth for her to do this. HE threw his friendship with you away the second he decided to kiss your wife or let her kiss him.

 

2 Your marriage is in trouble if you are in MC. You aren't going to an MC to talk about the weather are you? Your marriage has been in trouble a long time.. even before your wife decided to have a sexual encounter with your male friend. It was in trouble then and it is in trouble now.

 

3. It might be an innocent friendship if you talked to Jill about your marital problems regarding, for example, who should take out the garbage...or who should get to watch their favorite show on T.V. on any given night...but if the marital problem centers around the person you are confiding in...the relationship has crossed the line. Jill is no longer a source to solve the problem...she is PART of the problem.

 

4. You can admire Jill, her husband and their marriage. This doesn't stop co-existing feelings you might have for her. In fact, it is quite natural to want someone you admire.

 

OP, you didn't answer my question from an earlier post. It is a simple one. Do you find Jill sexually attractive..yes or no?

 

5. If you want a female friend to confide in regarding your marriage, why not talk to Sue? Are you sexually attracted to her? If not, she is a SAFE person to confide in. Go for it.

 

6. You say your wife wants you to "give this one up" for her. You wouldn't be giving Jill up for HER. You would be giving Jill up for your marriage and your physical and emotional well-being. You would be dodging a bullet for you.

 

7. I only have one word regarding your feelings for Jill...DENIAL. You may not be aware of those feelings or be willing to admit them until the second you put your lips against hers...and then it's too late.

[travelgirl]

Just some random points from the OP's comments:

 

1. Your wife did not cost you a friendship. Yes, she put her tongue in his mouth as she kissed him, but he had to open his mouth for her to do this. HE threw his friendship with you away the second he decided to kiss your wife or let her kiss him.

 

2 Your marriage is in trouble if you are in MC. You aren't going to an MC to talk about the weather are you? Your marriage has been in trouble a long time.. even before your wife decided to have a sexual encounter with your male friend. It was in trouble then and it is in trouble now.

 

3. It might be an innocent friendship if you talked to Jill about your marital problems regarding, for example, who should take out the garbage...or who should get to watch their favorite show on T.V. on any given night...but if the marital problem centers around the person you are confiding in...the relationship has crossed the line. Jill is no longer a source to solve the problem...she is PART of the problem.

 

4. You can admire Jill, her husband and their marriage. This doesn't stop co-existing feelings you might have for her. In fact, it is quite natural to want someone you admire.

 

OP, you didn't answer my question from an earlier post. It is a simple one. Do you find Jill sexually attractive..yes or no?

 

5. If you want a female friend to confide in regarding your marriage, why not talk to Sue? Are you sexually attracted to her? If not, she is a SAFE person to confide in. Go for it.

 

6. You say your wife wants you to "give this one up" for her. You wouldn't be giving Jill up for HER. You would be giving Jill up for your marriage and your physical and emotional well-being. You would be dodging a bullet for you.

 

7. I only have one word regarding your feelings for Jill...DENIAL. You may not be aware of those feelings or be willing to admit them until the second you put your lips against hers...and then it's too late.

 

Very well said taylor - I agree 100%

[whichwayisup]

6. You say your wife wants you to "give this one up" for her. You wouldn't be giving Jill up for HER. You would be giving Jill up for your marriage and your physical and emotional well-being. You would be dodging a bullet for you.

 

7. I only have one word regarding your feelings for Jill...DENIAL. You may not be aware of those feelings or be willing to admit them until the second you put your lips against hers...and then it's too late.

 

These are two excellent points and I hope walker really sees this.

 

Even though you and Jill have been open about the friendship, fact is, you have talked about her WAY too much, and it's concerned your wife. Friends are friends, and they are important, but in your case, this woman Jill is TOO involved in your life. You're married, she's married, so please, start acting like are you, and each of you distance yourself from one another.

 

One thing to think about, since you and Jill have been close, did it ever occur to you BEFORE your wife's concerns came around, to include your spouses in this friendship? If you had done so, and your wife met and got to know Jill and her husband, maybe this wouldn't be such an issue now.

[angie2443]

5. If you want a female friend to confide in regarding your marriage, why not talk to Sue? Are you sexually attracted to her? If not, she is a SAFE person to confide in. Go for it.

.

 

I agree with everything else in the above post. This is the only part I'd take issue with. It is not all about sex. There is this assumption that as long as a friendship does not involve sex, then it is completely harmless to the marriage. I've seen same sex friendships between straight people that were harmful to the marriage/partnership of one of the friends. A friendship can be harmul to a marriage if personal aspects of the marriage are bieng discussed that one of the partners wants to be kept private, or if the partner with the friend respects their friend more than their wife/husband. I'm sure there's more but I think anyone reading this can get the point. It's not always about sex.

 

I do have to say here, though, that I think there is a sexual and/or romantic undertone to the OP's friendship here. It's just the vibe I'm getting from his posts.

[walkermark]

Good point.

 

I wondered that, too. Do you trust her to say faithful?

 

I would except that she cheated while we were married so that makes it difficult. Before that I did.

 

Someone asked if I was friends with Jill to get back at my wife for cheating on me - Are you nuts? I don't want to get back at her at all and if I did it would be something far more terrible than making friends with a girl from work.

[walkermark]

With nearly everyone here, I agree you're on your way to a sexual love affair. Either you are really blind about your feelings (in which case you need a psychiatrist) or you are innocent as to where these ventures of yours end up: in a bed with your little light o' love.

I don't know how to more plainly say this but I will die before I have an affair with Jill. I know we are in the infidelity forum, but so many posts act like there are just two kinds of opposite sex friendships: One where you barely know the person and the other where You are in a sexual love affair or an EA leading to it. That is nonsense. There are plenty of steps in between. I posted for advice and I am not being untruthful. I am not naive as to where something like this can lead but at some point a choice is made or justification is made to break some ethical, moral, marital or biblical standard and I am unwilling to do that.

 

However, I'm not condemning you. I had a friend, my best friend, too, and I had an affair; my husband either knew nothing or paid no attention. He was having one, too, I later learned. I had an affair with my best friend because my husband ignored me sexually--and for a long time, too, he had been ignoring me, and my friend knew all about my longings, yearnings, desires, and so forth. He unaccountably ignored me-- I know how attractive I am; I have had no difficulties finding partners, ever. My friend was really desirable, too, and that had always thrilled me. Once I made up my mind to go ahead, things went really fast. My husband never learned, because I never told him, and apparently he thought I was so light-headed as not to want a sex life. We carried on right under his nose, often kissing and petting in the kitchen then appearing apart and unconcerned and indifferent at the doorway. This was very arousing.

Thankfully my W and I have no problem with sex.

 

I'm quite sure there are a myriad of secondary satisfactions you're getting from having a "female friend" as your wife pines away with jealousy... You're just not admitting them. Think about this, for one thing (there are others, to think about, too): what if the time you spend with your girl friend were to be spent instead with your wife... On the other hand, why don't you find her a male friend to keep her company? Hmmm. Now, how does that feel?

OK I'm sure you mean Jill who is a girl and is a friend but we don't spend that much time together. We work for the same company and sometimes have to go to meetings together and sometimes work together. If I spent the time with Jill with my wife - the company might find that odd. I don't spend time with Jill before 9 or after 5.

[walkermark]

I question if your marriage is as good as you say it is. While outwardly it may appear to be good, inwardly (at least for you), there is much unresolved issues from her "kissing affair" as well there would be for most of us.

Certainly this kissing affair (good term) is still feeling hurtful and there is extreme anger toward him with a little bit of missing the idea of him as a former friend. Other than that, Sex life is good, We do stuff together that's fun - we both like tennis and recently joined a club at the end of summer, we go on dates every Sat, we sit and talk, we are affectionate, She is beautiful and sexy and fit, she's a good mom and takes care of our home and cooks great meals. I love her and I am in love with her. Recently there's been the Jill issue.

 

Now she wants YOU to give up another friend and yet she does not give up anything for you? I understand.

I agree with carhill...MC may be more beneficial than simply a way to solve THIS issue.

I don't want her to give up anything. I will bring up some of the undealt with stuff in MC.

[walkermark]

This is unprocessed hurt from years ago. It's time to work through this. Make that appointment

Appointment made for Sat morning. I believe they are trained in MC specifically.

 

A key dynamic we embraced in MC was the respect for history and ascribing its relevance, but not dwelling on it. IOW, it's in the room, hanging on the wall, but not in a place of prominence. ...

Do you want to change your perspective on what you just wrote?

I think I understand this a little, but currently this past hurt is influencing my trust. If my W were to say she was going out for drinks after work without me, I would not trust her. I wish I could say I did.

[carhill]

Your explanation of your feelings is healthy. You recognize where one area of your work is. Be open to the process and you'll likely do much better than I

 

I have a question: Do you feel that Jill is a relationship supporter? IOW, does she encourage you in your marriage and make positive comments about it? IME, this is a key component of a healthy opposite-sex platonic relationship. You've already shared that you support her relationship with Jack. Your M is the primary consideration, but I am curious how you view this related dynamic.

[walkermark]

Then do it. Make it happen. What is keeping you?

I will pursue it again. I think my W said it wouldn't prove anything or something like that, but I did suggest it to Jack, Jill's husband and maybe he was being polite, but he said yeah sounds good or something to that effect. Jill is for it I believe.

 

Lost me. In your opening post in this thread you unequivocally state you are in MC. Are you?

I had decided that I was going for sure. I just had not found one yet until today. I have an appointment now.

 

And going to MC IS a sign your M is in distress. Though you may have spoken with your W about her betrayal ,it still lingers. You haven't let it go after 8 years. Its still there. ...

Here's more of that pain and anger. You know, it was 8 years ago. But I am willing to bet it feels like it happened yesterday. You haven't moved past it. And in this MC can help.

I agree going to MC means something is wrong - I feel like we need more of a tune up than an engine rebuild... I certainly don't want a trade-in. As far as the hurt and anger it does feel like yesterday. Typing it makes me seethe and I can barely talk about it and after I do, I feel like hurting someone or myself. I won't because both are wrong and I know that.

 

I happen to think you do have boundaries set with Jill. And I think this may, in some part, exacerbate this anger/pain at your W. YOU have boundaries and your W does not. SHE cost you your friend and betrayed you in the process.

This is about as close as it gets to reading my mind. The boundaries are: Affairs are wrong. Affairs always hurt people. Affairs always crash and burn and I would lose a friend, a wife, family, other friends. Jack doesn't deserve to be treated that way. It's wrong because the Bible says it's a sin. It's wrong because it could jeopardize our jobs. I have felt the pain of infidelity and there is only one person I would wish that pain on and it's not my wife. Jill and I have talked about the skepticism of opposite sex friendships and Emotional affairs and have talked about our lack of feelings for each other and that we both are in love with our spouses. She has never indicated that she is anything other then completely in love with Jack either privately with me or with any of our common friends. She would describe him as the perfect husband.

I am not sexually attracted to Jill but most people including myself consider her pretty and somewhat plain. I don't have a secret crush or romantic feelings toward her. I don't get nervous around her. I don't think about how I look or smell or if my hair is just right before I see her or what I am wearing.

[walkermark]

I have a question: Do you feel that Jill is a relationship supporter? IOW, does she encourage you in your marriage and make positive comments about it? IME, this is a key component of a healthy opposite-sex platonic relationship. You've already shared that you support her relationship with Jack. Your M is the primary consideration, but I am curious how you view this related dynamic.

Yes 100% she said ultimately if I need to drop her as a friend she understands and wants my W and I to be happy and stay married.

 

She has made lots of great suggestions both directly and by example. None were the result of me going to her to complain. It was more like she talked about how her and Jack did XYZ over the weekend, what did you guys do? Maybe I didn't say enough fun stuff and she would suggest things like You guys should do more of this or that. I think in the past I may have been talking about my kids and she suggested that we should get a babysitter on a regular basis and go on dates or do non-kid stuff to make my W feel special and stuff like that.

 

Another thing Sue mentioned to me and it's true with Jill and that is around the holidays and special dates I feel like I have an insider spy and women friends are good at gift suggestions and is this electric mixer a romantic enough gift? type questions. Also women friends are good at reminders about those occasions before the actual day arrives.

 

She's never talked bad about my W and like me she shares the belief that Marriage is forever.

[carhill]

Would you say that your W's opposition to your friendship with Jill has brought more importance (time spent thinking about, discussing and analyzing) to this friendship than it otherwise would receive if your W was instead saying "hey, what's up with Jill? How are she and Jack doing?" Given it a life beyond its reality?

 

I get the sense that Jill is a valued work-friend about whom you've had to analyze your feelings for and spend an inordinate amount of time on simply because your W doesn't approve of your friendship with this person. As all friends do, she matters to you so you naturally begin to analyze the dynamic and attempt to defend your loyalty to your W, while still validating the bond you have with your friend. Should you have to choose between a friend you value and your W simply because she says so? Most here say yes, you do, and that you should choose your W. Is that fair, to you? IDK....hopefully you'll find your path.

 

Yes 100% she said ultimately if I need to drop her as a friend she understands and wants my W and I to be happy and stay married.

 

FWIW, I heard exactly these words from my "friend", with whom I had a far different and more complex relationship with, and this solidified my respect for her as a friend.

[walkermark]

I'm curious...what steps did you and your wife take to recover your marriage from before?

Owl, Thanks for posting - I am falling asleep so I will get to some more replies tomorrow, but wanted to comment on this. I guess we did nothing. I considered divorce, but decided I loved her too much and that I wanted to stay married.

[pelicanpreacher]

Your problem might be easily solved if you pushed for a closer relationship between Jill and your wife Sue than the one you share with Jill. If they became more like sisters instead of percieved adversaries in Sue's eyes then your wife might not only come around to feeling more comfortable with Jill but might also look forward to engaging her herself on issues she feels she has no-one to talk to about.

[Lovelybird]

if you love your wife, you should set her free, does she have male friend?

[walkermark]

The more I've read of this thread, the more I'm convinced of one thing. You never recovered from your wife's infidelity. Neither your marriage, nor you personally have healed from that incident yet.

I agree with this.

Because of that...you still have a lot of anger and resentment towards your wife...and are using that to justify 'hurting her back' by refusing to consider the damage you're likely to do by maintaining this friendship.

You feel that she "owes you this".

Sorry...but that attitude is going to cause your marriage to go screaming down in flames.

I appreciate you saying this, but I believe I feel a little differently. Here's what I think I feel. The anger is focused on him. I find it very difficult to feel anger toward my W because I love her so much. To me what I feel toward her is more sadness and disappointment and this feeling like no matter what, her actions can never be taken back. She will always be the one that broke her vows.

I don't feel like she owes me this particular friendship as repayment for what she did wrong. I do think that if there were one of us to be concerned about breaking the marriage vows, the one who did it before would be the less trustworthy one.

 

Here's my suggestions:

1. Marriage counseling. Specifically, you need a counselor who can help the two of you deal with the damages to your marriage (and to yourselves) from her infidelity.

Appointment on the books.

 

2. Pick up a copy of "Not Just Friends". Good information on EA's.

Read most of it. We are not having an EA. the Major elements missing are: Sexual Tension/attraction, No Hiding contact from spouses, No sharing of problems that I have not already shared with my W and are working on, There are no needs my W is not meeting. The one good thing that book has is info on steering clear of EA with opposite sex friends. If I am having an EA with Jill, then I am having them with all my friends, guys included

 

3. Pick up a copy of "Surviving an Affair"...and look at what steps were missed as part of your marital recovery from your wife's infidelity. Look also for the warning signs of your own situation.

Good call - I have looked through it, but was oblivious to the fact that it could help me. I will get it.

 

4. Work with your MC on a gameplan to mitigate damage to your marriage and a good way to handle the situation with Jill and your wife.

Certainly. I believe there has to be a compromise or some other constructive solution to the demand of You can't be friends because I said so.

[Saville]

Personally, Walkermark, I think you are full of it. I have read the entire thread and there is an agenda that you aren't sharing. Perhaps you don't even want to admit it to yourself. Wives and husbands usually don't ask their spouses to refrain from "friendships" unless their radar goes off. You are either hoping to precipitate something by acting like Mr. Above Board, or you are duping yourself into believing your interaction with this woman is harmless. "Me thinks the innocent doth protest too loudly." It is ridiculous to come to a Marriage forum and ask for advice for something that is as innocuous as working relationship. Oh, yes, you love your wife So much...you keep saying that, so why don't I believe you? Just come clean and perhaps you will get the advice or validation that you seek.

 

Saville

[jwi71]

Get yourself to MC.

 

Work on the trust, the pain, the anger and the communication.

 

Jill is no longer a person but a symbol you two are fighting over - each trying to "win". And you both end up losing.

 

So lets talk about your W now, enough of Jill.

 

Why do you want to save the M?

What do YOU get out of being married to her?

[walkermark]

Personally, Walkermark, I think you are full of it. I have read the entire thread and there is an agenda that you aren't sharing. Perhaps you don't even want to admit it to yourself. Wives and husbands usually don't ask their spouses to refrain from "friendships" unless their radar goes off. You are either hoping to precipitate something by acting like Mr. Above Board, or you are duping yourself into believing your interaction with this woman is harmless. "Me thinks the innocent doth protest too loudly." It is ridiculous to come to a Marriage forum and ask for advice for something that is as innocuous as working relationship. Oh, yes, you love your wife So much...you keep saying that, so why don't I believe you? Just come clean and perhaps you will get the advice or validation that you seek.

precipitate something such as what?

Come clean on what?

What forum should I go to? Is there one that gives advice based on the information presented?

[angie2443]

Your problem might be easily solved if you pushed for a closer relationship between Jill and your wife Sue than the one you share with Jill. If they became more like sisters instead of percieved adversaries in Sue's eyes then your wife might not only come around to feeling more comfortable with Jill but might also look forward to engaging her herself on issues she feels she has no-one to talk to about.

 

This would be so artificial, IMO. The wife already has a gut feeling that this friendship undermines the marriage. I think that if the OP tried this, there would be an unspoken agreement to tone things down in front of the wife.

[angie2443]

Personally, Walkermark, I think you are full of it. I have read the entire thread and there is an agenda that you aren't sharing. Perhaps you don't even want to admit it to yourself. Wives and husbands usually don't ask their spouses to refrain from "friendships" unless their radar goes off. You are either hoping to precipitate something by acting like Mr. Above Board, or you are duping yourself into believing your interaction with this woman is harmless. "Me thinks the innocent doth protest too loudly." It is ridiculous to come to a Marriage forum and ask for advice for something that is as innocuous as working relationship. Oh, yes, you love your wife So much...you keep saying that, so why don't I believe you? Just come clean and perhaps you will get the advice or validation that you seek.

 

Saville

 

I agree. I think the OP bringing up the "tongue in the mouth" incident between his wife and the old friend is an excuse he's using to keep this friendship that is hurting the relationship between him and the wife. It kind of sounds like "she got hers, so it's ok for me to get mine". Who's to say if he's right or wrong? In the end though, if he wants the marriage saved, he's going to have to end the friendship.

[Owl]

Wallermark...suggestion for you.

 

Don't END the friendship at this point...but...since you know it's a major point of contention and stress in a marriage that's already dealing with more than enough issues, why not BACK OFF on it for a while?

 

Simply ask Jill to take a break discussing anything non-work related for now, until you get the chance to discuss everything with your marriage counselor?

 

If she's a good friend...she'll understand. As someone who's been thru infidelity as a BS, you can appreicate how not having this as an issue at this point in time can allow your MC to focus on the baseline issues in your marriage to begin with...and this will allow you and your wife to do so.

 

But...if you're not willing to back off of a friendship with this woman, knowing the strain that it puts on your marriage and on your wife...that is probably the HALLMARK sign that the friendship is TOO important...

 

No relationship should supercede that of you and your wife. Including this friendship.

 

Can you see that?

 

It sounds like you're taking the right steps so far...given that, this little step here doesn't seem all that huge from my side of the keyboard.