Christmas - ! Appropriate Gifts

[Sandy223]

OK ... this OW thing is hell .. still working through a lot of issues with the help of this board and a professional therapist ...

 

I am not ready to end this affair ... it is running it's course ... and I need to ask an awkward question - how do you handle the whole gift giving thing? I was personally not even worrying about it ... and about two weeks ago, when we were on the phone ... the MM suggested we make a pact re: no gifts this year ... I asked him if he was the Grinch. He told me he didn't want me to worry about getting him anything ... I told him "Here is what I think: You can get me something if you WANT to" .... and I left it at that ... think I made it perfectly clear that I was not agreeing to the pact ...

 

... i saw him the following night, and he hinted about a pair of slippers he would like ...

 

... he is going away the Sunday a/f x-mas, and I know he is taking next week off from work... I spoke to him late last week (he takes every Friday off), and pretty much listed to him complain about things at work, etc... (just listening to him ... he tells me a lot) .... asked me what I was doing ... I told him "the same" (e.g., parties, running around like a nut getting ready for all of this holiday stuff) ... Told him I was going away for New Years .... he asked with whom ... I told him friends ... then he tells me he wants to book a trip with me when he gets back ... asks me if I would be available on Jan ___whatever ... I told him I didn't know ...

 

... prior to this talk ... I mentioned to him ... "so, I am really not going to see you before you leave?" I just mentioned it matter of factly ... he said he was trying to work that out ... it would be hard with all the family around (this was last Wednesday) ... but he would be in touch and see what he could do ... it was actually then that he asked me about NYears and asked me to commit to a date after that ... which I did not do ...

 

... I, frankly, want to see what happens during this holiday first ... I am thinking ... if he cares about me at all, he will get me something for x-mas (something thoughtful, not necessarily extravagant .. thoughtful would be nice) ... and he will make certain that he delivers the present before or at least the day after x-mas ... I think he should know that it is important to me ... (because of the hints I dropped ... I wasn't going to agree to things I was not comfortable with ... e.g., I was not going to agree to the no x-mas gift pact ... no freaking way!!!!!!!!!!) ....

 

... anyway, I let him know it was important to me because people can't read minds and I know that no gift this year would disappoint me ....

 

... anyway ... just venting ... can't help it, but I am on pins and needles right now wondering if this guy is going to do the right thing for the holiday ..... (e.g., give his lover a gift because he wants to) ... I really believe this man has feelings for me ... even though I know this situation is not right at all ....

 

.. .i am really, really struggling with all of this ... I am just not ready to let go yet ... so ... do you think he will do the right thing? do you think he should definitely get dumped if he does not? (now, I know you all are going to say that he should get dumped regardless because he is married and I am being stupid, but that is a different thing all together) ...

 

... what I am really asking is this : In the context of these messed up, angst ridden extramarital affair/relationships ... what is the right thing? Is the any kind of Christmas gift etiquette?

 

... guess I am internally scared right now ... in my heart, I know that if I man has genuine feelings for you, he would buy you a Christmas gift ... no brainer there ... and I am scared that this MM might not because of his earlier "pact" comment... .why am I scared? Not for lack of a gift ... but because I pretty much know that he should be dumped ASAP if he doesn't do the right thing .... and, I KNOW that I am not ready to dump him ...

 

... so, let's just hope he gets me a freaking gift!!

[Ronni_W]

As I'm seeing it, you are placing significance on a gift, particularly a "thoughtful" one, as if it will represent...what?

What meaningful thought or feeling or attitude are you assigning to an object given to you just because it is Christmas?

 

Cos, whatever (emotional) void it is supposed to fill, it's not really going to do that. No matter how "thoughtful", big or small, practical or extravagant. It will just be a material thing that you receive because it happens to be the end of December.

 

Also may be worth keeping in mind that, if that is all you told him about it, then you didn't really make it clear that receiving a gift from him is extremely important to you -- "You can get me something if you want to," does not necessarily translate into, "You had bloody-well better get me something or else!"

 

In any case, the "right thing" in this situation is only whatever your own mind judges it is -- which you are perfectly entitled to make that decision for yourself.

[Sandy223]

Thanks Ronni! Clearly, I am angst over this as trivial as it seems ...

 

When I mentioned he should get me something if wanted to, I was pretty empthatic ... we were on the phone .. as that topic ended, he pretty much said ... "ok, ok .. calm down" ... so, I think he could tell I was riled up about the idea of no gifts (sick actually, as stupid as it may sound)....

 

A thoughtful gift could be flowers, perfume, a piece of jewlrey ... guess too, he is not spending x-mas with me (can't as he is still married) ... I just would be hurt if he didn't get me anything ... and I appreciate your input because it offers a different way of looking at the situation and makes it less dire .... ty.

[wildsoul]

Steady yourself, girl. Dunno if I have any good advice, but as I'm reading and relating to your post, I'll share a couple observations.

 

Being in an A or dating a separated person is like walking through a fun house mirrored room. Where are the clear paths? What is appropriate; what isn't?

 

From what I've gathered, correct me if I'm wrong, you're a single woman dating a MM. Me too, although my guy is separated. One of the things that is crazy-making about the dynamic is that your usual yardstick of how far a relationship should be progressing, and how fast, is broken. Because the MM isn't available (in an obvious way) you know that the usual rules don't quite apply, but then how should it go? We read this forum for a sanity check, but it's still confusing when you're in it.

 

The natural tendency is to create order where there is none. Hence, you find yourself (and me, too) wondering, "What's appropriate here?" You desperately want to know where the floor and the door are, but it's a room of mirrors. Eeek.

 

I think you're making too much of this gift thing. Your post reads like it's about the present (and I bet some people will jump on that) but I understand it's more about you trying to find out if he loves you or not, is your R real or not, and get a sense of where you stand.

 

But you must remember that whether he gives you a gift or not isn't really going to answer that question. For a moment, perhaps. Yet even if he does give you a gift, that will just beg the question, "but what does the type of gift he gave me mean?" If he doesn't give you anything, then that's just going to be the salt in the wounds you're already feeling as the OW. Let the gift thing go or you're in for a crazy making time.

 

How long have you been with him as a sexual/romantic partner? Is he one of the MM's that tell you he's leaving his wife, or has he indicated that he has no intention of leaving?

[Ronni_W]

Sandy,

I get that we can make "material stuff" a big deal when the emotional connection that we are actually desiring is unavailable for whatever reason.

 

I guess the thing is that, even if there is no "object evidence" that he cares, it doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't care. Sort of, if you are going to dump him, don't do it over non-receipt of a gift but because of some other, more meaningful reason. If that makes sense?

 

Hugs.

[bentnotbroken]

OK ... this OW thing is hell .. still working through a lot of issues with the help of this board and a professional therapist ...

 

I am not ready to end this affair ... it is running it's course ... and I need to ask an awkward question - how do you handle the whole gift giving thing? I was personally not even worrying about it ... and about two weeks ago, when we were on the phone ... the MM suggested we make a pact re: no gifts this year ... I asked him if he was the Grinch. He told me he didn't want me to worry about getting him anything ... I told him "Here is what I think: You can get me something if you WANT to" .... and I left it at that ... think I made it perfectly clear that I was not agreeing to the pact ...

 

... i saw him the following night, and he hinted about a pair of slippers he would like ...

 

... he is going away the Sunday a/f x-mas, and I know he is taking next week off from work... I spoke to him late last week (he takes every Friday off), and pretty much listed to him complain about things at work, etc... (just listening to him ... he tells me a lot) .... asked me what I was doing ... I told him "the same" (e.g., parties, running around like a nut getting ready for all of this holiday stuff) ... Told him I was going away for New Years .... he asked with whom ... I told him friends ... then he tells me he wants to book a trip with me when he gets back ... asks me if I would be available on Jan ___whatever ... I told him I didn't know ...

 

... prior to this talk ... I mentioned to him ... "so, I am really not going to see you before you leave?" I just mentioned it matter of factly ... he said he was trying to work that out ... it would be hard with all the family around (this was last Wednesday) ... but he would be in touch and see what he could do ... it was actually then that he asked me about NYears and asked me to commit to a date after that ... which I did not do ...

 

... I, frankly, want to see what happens during this holiday first ... I am thinking ... if he cares about me at all, he will get me something for x-mas (something thoughtful, not necessarily extravagant .. thoughtful would be nice) ... and he will make certain that he delivers the present before or at least the day after x-mas ... I think he should know that it is important to me ... (because of the hints I dropped ... I wasn't going to agree to things I was not comfortable with ... e.g., I was not going to agree to the no x-mas gift pact ... no freaking way!!!!!!!!!!) ....

 

... anyway, I let him know it was important to me because people can't read minds and I know that no gift this year would disappoint me ....

 

... anyway ... just venting ... can't help it, but I am on pins and needles right now wondering if this guy is going to do the right thing for the holiday ..... (e.g., give his lover a gift because he wants to) ... I really believe this man has feelings for me ... even though I know this situation is not right at all ....

 

.. .i am really, really struggling with all of this ... I am just not ready to let go yet ... so ... do you think he will do the right thing? do you think he should definitely get dumped if he does not? (now, I know you all are going to say that he should get dumped regardless because he is married and I am being stupid, but that is a different thing all together) ...

 

... what I am really asking is this : In the context of these messed up, angst ridden extramarital affair/relationships ... what is the right thing? Is the any kind of Christmas gift etiquette?

 

... guess I am internally scared right now ... in my heart, I know that if I man has genuine feelings for you, he would buy you a Christmas gift ... no brainer there ... and I am scared that this MM might not because of his earlier "pact" comment... .why am I scared? Not for lack of a gift ... but because I pretty much know that he should be dumped ASAP if he doesn't do the right thing .... and, I KNOW that I am not ready to dump him ...

 

... so, let's just hope he gets me a freaking gift!!

 

 

 

At what point has this guy shown that he will do the right thing? It appears he doesn't know what the right thing is for life, much less for Christmas. Does he even know what the right thing is? I would wager he wouldn't know if it bit him on the @$$.

[Sandy223]

Thanks Ronni and Windsoul - I truly love this board!

 

Let's see - it is not about the material gift at all ... it's about envisioning him buying something special for his W and family, and not thinking about me ...

 

We have been dating since September - that's it ... but I have known him since February 2007 (almost two years). We went out a couple of time then (platonic) ...met through a mutual "business" friend" and had some work things in common ... saw him once in a while as "friends" (think we both sensed something there) ... a line was crossed, I got uncomfortable and ended it ... he has been pursuing me ever since ...

 

... when I met him our mutual friend told me that he and his W were and had been having problems .... he told me the same; and, about a month prior to us meeitng, he actually told his W he wasn't happy in the marraige and wanted out .... prior to that, the two had been in therapy because he claimed she didn't understand him emotionally, and that he had to hide who he was to married to her .... I came along ......

 

... when I came along I was privy to all this information; one night, he told me that he was going to leave (not for me, but for him/them) ... but his plan had always been to wait until at his youngest was at least out of the house ... he was not leaving him there ... so, he told me (not for me and him) ... that it would be three years ... again, at this point we had just met ... there was no relationship to speak of ... and, just when one could have started, I totally walked away ...

 

... he honored that ... but kept sending me these email jokes, to which I never responded ... he pursued me ... and asked me out a couple of times ... I never could go .... then last June, I let him take me out for my birthday (a week later, and nothing intimate at all) .. during the time away we spoke maybe twice ... very briefly ...

 

... apparently, he could not, never stopped thinking about me ... couldn't get me off of his mind ... in Sept/. he convinced me that we should try this out .. at least spend more time getting to know one another b/c he has a very strong feeling that this is really real ... so, here you have it ...

 

... we don't talk about him leaving, etc ... the whole stated purpose of this is to to see if this is real ... (even though we both know that it is, which is why I said "stated purpose") .. I told him that I would engage with him but only if it didn't disrupt the rest of my life ... (e.g., this A couldn't take over my life ... that was the thing) ...

 

.. So, right now, I am trying to keep it as "normal" as possible, even though I know it is anything but ... I promised myself to go out of my way to maintain a very active dating and social life outside of the A, which is exactly what I have done, and why I am not totally nuts right now (I have other prospects, I am keeping the energy moving ... everything else in my life is going well right now) ... so, I to am exploring him and whether or not this is someone I could spend the rest of my life with (if I had the option) ...

 

... right now, I am really trying not to think about whether or not I will have that option ... in the back of my head I am giving it until spring ... to find out from him if he is in love with me or not .... to tell you the truth ... I KNOW that he is head over heels for me ... but whether or not he verbalizes it is a different story ...

 

... even in "normal" relationships they say you should never say I love you first .. why? because if a guy loves you and isn't saying it, it is because he is not ready for the next step ... in my case, after he TELLS me he loves me ... then I can bring out in the open, with him, what he/we plan to do about it ... but, we/I am not there yet ...

 

... right now I really am enjoying the affair ... and the rest of my life as well ... it is, however totally filled with angst at some points, and really is a roller coaster ... but I do love him, and at this point haven't done ANYTHING to jeaopardize the rest of my life ... if anything, it has been enhanced because of the sheer fact that I have forced myself to keep moving ... and, now, the movement is natural ... I have a really, really full life .. full of hobbies, other friends, family .. and I am totally engaged in that ....

 

... Windsoul ... you are right when you say that I am looking for a yardstick and looking to normalize this ... and I appreciate you snapping me down to earth with the "fun house" analogy ... it is perfect, actually ... and, I like the face that you talked about "crazy making time" ... because that is exactly what I have done!!!!!!! Driven myself up the freaking wall about a Christmas present that i may or may not get ... NO .. this is not about the gift at all ... it is about a sign of "where I stand with him."

 

Which is why I didn't agree to the no gift pact ... men know that women read into the types of gifts they get them .. he is not "ready" to say I love you to me ... is he ready to get me a romantic Christmas gift that says I love you???? Does he buy me something practical??? Something practical would say I am his buddy ...

 

How do we put these types of yardsticks in these crazy sitautions????

 

Guess the whole meaning of this post then is, what is the significance of the type of special occasion present in an affair type situation vs. the real world???? this is what I am grappling with ... I know this man loves me ... I don't think he is ready to say it (that is what my gut is telling me) ... but, at the same time, I think I did make it rather clear that the no gift thing wouldn't sit well with me ... so, now what is he going to do? Get me the darn gift because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings because he loves me? Or, blow it off all together because he doesn't want any meaning/significance attached to it (which is the real reason I think he wanted to have a no gift pact ... not for his stated reason of not wanting me to worry about what to get him) ..

 

... anyway ... bottom line now is this ... I have exhausted the heck out of myself worrying about this stupid holiday ... maybe I should just give it a rest and see what happens!!!! BTW, last Christmas I wasn't even talking to him and he sent me a Christmas gift .... I book from Amazon, wrapped in paper with a card .... so, there you have it...

 

... maybe he could get a gift when there is no relationship .. maybe getting a gift while in the relationship would be some sort of admission of his real feelings for me (which he is not revealing at the moment, verbally) ... OK ... whew! This is exhausting ...

 

... he did send me a note on Friday .. . a little line about the holiday (commenting on the snow) ... telling me how he wished we could be cuddled up in front of a fire somewhere ...

[frannie]

OK, have you ever read 'Five Love Languages', or know about the concept? You evidently put gift-giving at the top of your list of love expressions. Nothing to do with materialism, just the way you like to express and receive love (read up about the idea for more information).

 

Your MM may not know or understand at all what this gift means to you. Doesn't mean he doesn't love you or care about you. Just gift-giving may not be his thing.

 

Plus you have stated to him in a very 'female' way, what it means: 'get me a gift if you want to'. That's the kind of thing drives men nuts!! You haven't explained to him at all (to my mind) what this gift means. You're setting him up to fail, and yourself to be disappointed, I think.

[child_of_isis]

If he was concerned about you worrying about getting him a present, I don't think he would have mentioned the slippers.

 

In all probability, he doesn't want to have to worry about getting you something. Or not wanting you to get your hopes up for something Extravagant. He has children, a wife, his extended family, her extended family. The list probably goes on forever .

 

I don't mean to sound mean...but Christmas can be stressful on the bank account when you factor in all of the family, dinners, traveling, presents, etc. Most likely his wife is in charge of all of this & every penny is turned over to her at this time. If a hundred comes missing, most likely she will notice it.

[whichwayisup]

OK ... this OW thing is hell .. still working through a lot of issues with the help of this board and a professional therapist ...

 

What does your therapist say about you and the affair you're in with this MM?

 

Bottomline, this guy isn't leaving his wife and kids, his actions have shown you this. Sure, he wishes he could be with you, cuddled up with you beside a fire but it isn't going to happen, not during the holidays.

 

I hope during your counselling sessions, you're working on understanding why you've allowed the affair to go on. You deserve better and more, unfortunately for you, it won't be with this MM. He may really love and care about you, but he sees you as the OW, nothing more than that. Now, IF you want to continue on, then do some accepting of how things are, and how much you'll have to settle to be with him, on his time frame, be second fiddle all the time.. Is this what you want? You're going through hell, seeking counselling to help you cope with this, yet you expect and hope for a gift from him, and with that brings ALOT of emotions and expectations of what the meaning of the affair is and will be. Again, this man hasn't left his wife or kids, that says alot. Sorry if I'm hurting your feelings by saying this, but the reality of your situation IS something you need to focus on and not the fun fantasy, hope of what it "could" be. It sounds like you don't want the A to end, so what is the point of doing the therapy? To help you just cope through the rollercoaster ride you're on?

 

Spend Xmas with your family and friends. Don't let him ruin the holiday or make you feel sad. Enjoy YOUR life, he certainly is enjoying his. Remember that! And, you were FINE before you met him and you'll be fine without him.

[Sandy223]

Thank you everyone for responding ....

 

It's all good advice and very supportive ...

 

Frannie - I think you are right ... I did express myself like a "female" here ... setting him up for failure and me for disappointment ...

 

... and, also, whoever said he W is probably in charge of all the "Christmas stuff" and would notice a missing $100 is probably right ... in reality, he probably was very stressed out about the thing ... maybe he would want to get me something really nice, but knows he can't pull it off without getting caught ... and perhaps he just thought it would be easier to make the pact then end up getting me something crappy ...

 

.. also, he hinted after I told him he could get me something if he wanted to ... one of his stated reasons for the pact was because he didn't want me to spend any money on him ... perhaps the slipper hint was a way of telling me "you can buy me an inexpensive pair of slippers" .. again, Frannie is correct ... we are speaking in tongues here ... I was not direct and to the point about expressing my needs and there could be a million and one reasons for the pact (none of which means he doesn't love me) .. but I am just going on and on assuming ...

 

and whichwayisup ... I am not in therapy because of this affair ... I am on this board because of the Affair ... i have been seeing a doctor for family related issues having nothing to do with this ... but now that this is happening, it's a good thing he is there ...

 

... also, I don't want to comment too much on the therapy because every situation is different .. I hear what you are saying ... he's an a$$, dump him, a creep, he never does the right thing, etc... and I know the sitution is far less than what I deserve ... but, I am still working through this .. .I also know that your comments are coming from a position of support ... so, thank you ...

 

also, the therapist is not there to help keep me comfortable during the rollercoaster, he is there to help me work through this and come to the right decision for myself ... he doesn't think I took an unwarranted risk ... enough said on that front .... I don't want to put too much in here about psychological advice because I am not a doctor, and don't want, god for bid, someone to take any of what i am saying out of context to their detriment ...

 

... and, another comment for now --- about the gift stuff ... Frannie ... how do you think I should handle it if he doesn't get me anything? I am asking Frannie because I think she is right in that I did not express my needs clearly and concisely ... and, as a result ... I am sit here stuck reading the tea leaves to my detriment ...

 

... in actuality ... there are a million and one reasons why he wanted to "avoid" christams altogether with me ... e.g., (1) if you can't do it right, why to it at all?; (2) he perhaps doesn't realize the signigicance I am attaching to the stupid gift visa vi (sp?) the relationship; (3) on an on ...

 

... i know earlier this year he even mentioned not knowing what to do about Christmas ... in the context of his financial sitaution ... we were talking about how bad things are out there .. and he was telling me how his situiaton was deteriorating and then mentioned that he didn't know what to do about x-mas but would cross that bridge when he came to it .. i asked what he meant by that .. and he said ... "because to travel with a family of 5 overseas is very expensive .. the trip I booked is very expensive" .. so there you have it .. she (the W) probably forged ahead with all of the x-mas stuff as if ... he is not in good financial shape, and the whole thing about x-mas is stressing him out ...

 

... granted .. I do understand all of this ... guess my only point is that with all of this going on, if the guy had real feelings for me, he would pull something off ... but, I suppose Frannie is right ... also the thing about the W being in charge of the x-mas finances is probably true too ...

 

... on another note - I wasn't talking about extravagance here ... I just wanted a damn christmas present! Well, guess I didn't feel like focusing on these other issues either ....

 

and, whitchwayis up (i love your screen name, by the way) ... I hear ya, I hear ya, I hear ya ... I am not there yet ... and at this point, all I can say is ... I do hope you are wrong ....

[Sandy223]

Sandy,

I get that we can make "material stuff" a big deal when the emotional connection that we are actually desiring is unavailable for whatever reason.

 

I guess the thing is that, even if there is no "object evidence" that he cares, it doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't care. Sort of, if you are going to dump him, don't do it over non-receipt of a gift but because of some other, more meaningful reason. If that makes sense?

 

Hugs.

 

Thanks a million Ronni ... this is perhaps the most conciliatory advice ... I will take my emphasis off the gift now ...

[Ronni_W]

it is not about the material gift at all ... it's about envisioning him buying something special for his W and family, and not thinking about me ...

In truth, though, he was ALREADY thinking about "Sandy & Xmas" -- probably even long before he mentioned about no presents!

 

And there are many guys (some of whom I know personally), who don't really start thinking about what they're getting their partners until a few days before Dec. 24 -- she could end up with the Hope Diamond and be all thrilled and "how thoughtful and meaningful", but to him it was more cos that was the first thing he saw in the first store he visited.

 

... I will take my emphasis off the gift now ...

Yep, exactly. Whatever it would have been, is not going to make up for the fact that you won't be spending as much time with him over the Holidays as your heart might prefer. But that does NOT mean that he won't be thinking about you...who knows?...often or very often.

 

If it is his time your heart is seeking, you can fulfill your desire by just always being sure to really appreciate any and all time he does manage to have with you -- for him, that is his meaningful and significant gift. Phone, email, text, in-person...all are his many "gifts of time" that you do in any case receive whenever he can swing it.

 

(An affair partner can sometimes forget the lengths to which the other must go to give what can be perceived as "trivial" but is not so when put in context of the MP's obligations and responsibilities to spouse and family. That's, of course, part of the vicious cycle...the spouse DOES come first.)

[wildsoul]

And there are many guys (some of whom I know personally), who don't really start thinking about what they're getting their partners until a few days before Dec. 24 -- she could end up with the Hope Diamond and be all thrilled and "how thoughtful and meaningful", but to him it was more cos that was the first thing he saw in the first store he visited.

Totally. Years ago when I worked in retail, we knew to be ready for all the men that came in on the 22-24th. Their objective was to get in/out as quickly as possible. Most didn't select the gift at all, but instead just asked us what would be "good." Also, they would buy ANYTHING that was pre-wrapped. Didn't matter what the hell we were selling. If it was wrapped, it was sold.

 

And honestly, this wasn't necessarily a reflection of how much a guy loved his woman. It was more about the guy's relationships to shopping and money.

[frannie]

Sandy, if it were me I'd show him a way he could express how much he cares without the constraints that an affair puts on these things. But whatever you do, you need to be sure that if you're hanging everything on him doing (or not doing) it, then he has to know the importance you're attaching to whatever it is.

 

The most meaningful thing I ever received from MM was a replacement for something my Mum (no longer with us) used to own, that my sis-in-law purloined after she died. Was nothing of any material value, but it meant so much to me. MM searched the second-hand shops and found one. He was so excited to give it to me, and it meant so much to me, yet its intrinsic value wasn't important at all. It was just the fact he'd listened all that time ago when I was so upset about losing 'it'... sorry I'm not giving too much detail here. But it was just that he cared, listened, and had gone out to try to 'make it right'. And that's all that matters, really.

[Ronni_W]

Didn't matter what the hell we were selling. If it was wrapped, it was sold.

That is just too, too funny.

Of course, we've all seen those guys. Salesperson asks, "What size?" and they start looking around as if they just landed on Mars, trying to find a fellow-Martian who hopefully will resemble their loved one's shape, however vaguely.

 

I totally agree that, for the large majority, it really does not reflect on how they truly feel about us. For me, I see their effort as far more valuable and significant...that is, in any case, what they are hoping to be appreciated and admired for.

 

NOT that I don't also really value when the gift actually matches 'me' -- that's even better but it is also just a bonus

[Sandy223]

Thank you all again! Now I am concerned that I did not express my needs clearly ... ... and, about the gifts of his time ... i know it is hard ... all of this on everybody ... I am giving him my time too though .. .and I want my time to be the most precious gift I could give him ... also,

 

you are right Frannie, and thank you for bringing this up ...but he was already stressed out and thinking about x-mas and me long before the date ... no doubt he was probably freaking about what to do/not to do ...and maybe decided that it would be better to remove the pressure from the situation completely ... are we not under enought pressure in this affair??? And, also, the last time I saw him he sent me a music player for upstairs in the BR ... he said he was happy now that he could bring his music over to my house and turn me onto his music... that is pretty romantic, actually ... to want to get us something to enhance our connection ...

 

.... Frannie, and everyone ... thank you much ... I am going to stop obsesing over this (I hope I can at least) ... affairs are so difficult ... I am thinking .. the other part of me can't help but think in the other way ... he should get me an x-mas present, damn it!!

[whichwayisup]

Let me ask you a question. How long do you intend in staying in the affair? Can you see yourself being the OW in his life for another year or two, or three? Don't you want kids and a family, a life, a house, build a history with someone? The more love, energy and time you put into the affair, into him, the harder it will be on you in the future.

 

From what you've said, he has no plans on leaving his wife and kids.

[smarterthanbefore]

Hi sandy, I understand your problem, but let me help you out here. He doesn't need a gift from you, and he don't want to get you one because he has to get his WIFE a big i feel guilty for cheating gift, that will cost a lot of money, plus the kids gifts if he has any and extended family members, and his dogs gift if he has one.They all come way before you, so you don't register as important enough to get a gift for. As a way of feeling better about it, he proposed the x-mas gift pact so you won't buy him one, and he won't be forced to get you one. Don't worry about a gift. You give him the gift of being able to lie to the woman he made vows with, free sex without commitment if the A is a PA, and allow him to have his cake and eat it to. That is all the gifts he need from you. Plus don't worry about seeing him for the for the holidays, they are not for the OW. Holidays are for his wife and his family. You are no more than a pass time to him, like basketball or working out, something to relieve stress and help him escape reality like his home life. If you are gonna be the OW, know your place. You are last priority, and only there to take care of his selfish needs. You are not to be needy, clingy, want holidays and gifts, or expect to be considered important. There is a reason why affair partners get less time and scrapes of affection. Your job is to be there for him, take care of his selfish needs, put out sex without complaint, and never to ask him to chose between you or his wife. He has everything the way he want it. If you break your job title, as in expecting to be treated like a respectable girlfriend, and not the lowly mistress as you are, he will trade you in for another. Mistresses are easy to replace, wives are not. If he doesn't need another woman to buy gifts for and hear whine about time spent together and such. He has a wife for that. Know your place in his life, and no gift. If he by chance get you one, it is only to keep you there till he is tired of you and trade you in for another, which will eventually happen, unless he get caught first, then he will lie to both of you and wife, telling both of you what you want to hear to keep what he wants, and then he will try to stay with W to avoid alimony ect. Don't ever believe what a man willing to lie to his wife and have sex with another woman or be involved in a EA as the truth. He proves to you everytime he sneaks to talk to you or screw you that he is liar and a coward. You also prove to him that you think of yourself as less than a woman who deserves a true relationship with love and trust every time you allow him to talk and have sex with you. I'm not trying to be mean, just truthful. I work in marriage councling and see this every day.

[Meet 4 Coffee]

It wasn't appropriate for you to sleep with a man who was married, so it's also not appropriate to expect or buy him a gift.

[Ronni_W]

... I am giving him my time too though .. .and I want my time to be the most precious gift I could give him ... also,

True enough but you, as the single person, have more of it to give. It is therefore not AS scarce a commodity, not AS precious.

 

You likely are giving many OTHER scarce and precious gifts to the relationship but expecting for your time to "count" the same as his is just...not wise or realistic, IMO.

 

To me, I see it like this: Of course it would be nice...wonderful and terrific, even...if he does get you a token of his affection. Of course. But it is not that he "should" do it. It is that it would be nice if he can find a way to swing it, is all.

 

The other side about exchanging gifts is...what the heck is he supposed to do with whatever you give him? How is he supposed to explain where/from whom he got it, especially if it is something that he is unlikely to purchase for himself or receive from a business colleague?

It could be that he was hoping to avoid this type of scenario, or having to tell you that he'd need to leave it at your place, or just tossing it in the trash for lack of HIS better option.

 

You're right, though -- affairs are much more challenging...and non-affairs are challenging enough, as it is! Hang in there, is all I can offer you, about that part of things.

[Sandy223]

Smarter Than Before - where do you work in marraige counseling? Perhaps I should come in for a session with you ... I am really trying to figure this all out .. there are books out there, relatively new ones that go into all the different types of affairs, etc... your post was actually the closest one to getting me to feel like i should end this ASAP. You have just reinforced my ititial reasoning ... if he doesn't get me anything, or make a "christmas attempt" it would be a good excuse to end things ...

 

my thoughts were this: i know this man has feelings for me, but if he didn't make time to x-mas, then it only reinforces that this is nothing more than a fling to him and never will be anything else ... on the other hand, if he made time for x-mas things, it would show that he was at least thinking about leaving at some point, and wanted to keep me involved emotionally ...

 

... I never wanted anything extravagant ... I know a fling should never expect to get a gift ... and I intend to be treated like a legitimate gf throughout this whole thing ... as soon as I am not, I will leave ... because no, I do not want to be a fling .. .and yes, I do love him ... but, if he doesn't prove to me that this is anything more than a fling I am more than capable of taking my affections elsewhere and will ...

 

... then he can move on to another affair with someone else who can help him cope with his life ... I don't want that role ... I was/am legitimately testing this out to see if there is a future there, or the possibility of one ..

 

I hear you - Smarter Than Before - this is EXACTLY what I was afraid of ... I knew/know that x-mas is for the family ... and I knew/know that if he didn't make me part of it in someway, then I am nothing more (well, maybe a little more than) a piece of butt ... and never will be ...

 

 

.... and no, i never intended on getting him anything .... this christmas gift thing could actually be the end of the affair ... he has treated me like a legitimate dating partner so far ... why? Because that is how act as if I should be treated .. and he does ... granted, I have been ignoring the moral implications and everything else ... guess I am being selfish too ...

 

... I promised myself the second I started to feel as if I were some fly by night fling, I would get out ... that is defintitely not what I want ..

 

By the way .. "Smarter" I do appreciate your advice, but I am not a piece of trash ... I really don't think people on this support board for "people who find themselves in relationships with a committed partner" .. should go around bashing people in these delicate and heart wrenching situations ...

 

... for if his marraige were perfect, and he were getting his needs met .. .emotionally and otherwise ... why would he have found me? I don't believe that all men and cheaters are pigs ...

[Sandy223]

True enough but you, as the single person, have more of it to give. It is therefore not AS scarce a commodity, not AS precious.

 

You likely are giving many OTHER scarce and precious gifts to the relationship but expecting for your time to "count" the same as his is just...not wise or realistic, IMO.

 

To me, I see it like this: Of course it would be nice...wonderful and terrific, even...if he does get you a token of his affection. Of course. But it is not that he "should" do it. It is that it would be nice if he can find a way to swing it, is all.

 

The other side about exchanging gifts is...what the heck is he supposed to do with whatever you give him? How is he supposed to explain where/from whom he got it, especially if it is something that he is unlikely to purchase for himself or receive from a business colleague?

It could be that he was hoping to avoid this type of scenario, or having to tell you that he'd need to leave it at your place, or just tossing it in the trash for lack of HIS better option.

 

You're right, though -- affairs are much more challenging...and non-affairs are challenging enough, as it is! Hang in there, is all I can offer you, about that part of things.

 

 

Thank you Ronni!!! I actually do believe, however, that my time is just as important as his ... I don't feel that his is so scarce ... if he is with me because he is thinking about builidng a life with me, potentially, which is what he said .. then I believe he is lucky to be spending any time with me at all ... and that we both made our beds ... yes, we are probably both going through hell and both deserve to ..

 

I am not looking at all he has to go through to be with me ... I am looking at the fact that I am giving him any time at all ... and trying to come to terms with what I am doing here ...

 

... I just want you to know that you have been very supportive though, and I appreciate it .... I did not appreciate the implications of others that I am a piece of garbage ... guess those people are/were betrayed spouses ...

 

I forgive them because they are probably on this board trying to get the other side of the story from the OW ... and are here to either lash out at them and make them feel bad or to in some way rationalize and justify that all other women are pieces of crap ... this way they could feel better about their position as the BS .. or whatever ...

[wildsoul]

my thoughts were this: i know this man has feelings for me, but if he didn't make time to x-mas, then it only reinforces that this is nothing more than a fling to him and never will be anything else ... on the other hand, if he made time for x-mas things, it would show that he was at least thinking about leaving at some point, and wanted to keep me involved emotionally

Darlin--STOP. Those thoughts you're having are not right. It's crazy talk. You're grasping on for a sign and willing to project meaning if no real sign is given.

• A gift does not mean he is thinking about leaving.
  
• The only way to know if he's thinking about leaving is if he TELLS you so, and your guy hasn't said that.
  
• Even if he does tell you he's thinking of leaving, it doesn't mean he will.
  
• Hell, even if he LEAVES (and I'm dating a seperated man) it still doesn't mean he's definitely going to end his marriage and fully commit to you.
  

Mistresses get guilty-gifts, too. They also get bribery gifts. You've got to let go of this thinking that if he does/doesn't get you a gift that it means he is committing to you!

[Ronni_W]

Sandy,

Nah, no matter the circumstances, I don't think people "deserve" to go through hell -- I often do wonder why we choose it for ourselves, but that's a whole different thread...and forum .

Basically, if I'm gonna start damning 'you' to hell, then I'm just inviting someone else to do that to me for whatever reason THEY deem is valid. And I do not give others the right to pick & choose my values for me!

 

I am not looking at all he has to go through to be with me ... I am looking at the fact that I am giving him any time at all ...

 

Of course that is your prerogative. But such an attitude would not be too beneficial to a non-affair relationship so I just can't imagine how it might support an affair relationship. Sort of, and from a different perspective, how do affair partners get to be less compassionate than those of us in non-affairs? (Are we just being suckers, or what? .)

 

It also doesn't fully allow for the fact that you are choosing, of your own free will, to give him any time at all. (Which I realize may be one of your other conundrums.)

 

 

Absolutely...your time as well as all other resources are as valuable as anyone else's on the planet.

It's just that the very nature of affairs means the relationship is inherently "unequal" in many (not all) aspects. Both have the same amount of power but over very different areas.

 

And it seems to me that sometimes affair partners cause problems for each other (and the relationship) because they are struggling in vain to gain power in an area over which not even the other person has 100% freedom of choice.

 

Lawd, can I possibly express that any more obtusely??? . Let's try an example: Say 'your' b/day is the same day as his wife's mother...well, he simply doesn't have final say over how he is going to spend that day. Or, he may have FINAL say but it will still require his negotiating with his wife.

 

But if 'you' (not meaning 'you/Sandy') get all wangy cos he ends up at his mom-in-law's place -- that just isn't accepting of the WHOLE circumstance that you've chosen for yourself by choosing to an affair. It is like wanting an equal say in one of the unequal aspects that is on HIS side of the, er, "power spectrum."

 

Instead of just accepting the affair for what it is and also for what it is not...with all its negatives and inherent imbalances but focusing more on the positives that you both are giving and receivine, and just getting on with making the thing work as best it can within its crapload of limitations and challenges.

 

I know it is tough. But this is the life and these are the experiences that form part of the current reality that you and he have chosen to "co-create" with and for each other. You can change the whole thing, but some of the bits and pieces cannot be changed within the framework of an affair relationship.

If any of that makes sense?