quankanne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 dex, you've made me wonder now: If God stepped in each and everytime we started to fook up, would we as a species develop morally at the same rate that we (hopefully) develop now? How do we learn the lesson if we're not allowed to live out the experience? Link to post Share on other sites
wuggle Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Why do we need god to 'develop morally as a species' ?? Would we not be better as a species growing up, accepting that there is no god , and accepting responsibility for our actions ?? Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 dex, you've made me wonder now: If God stepped in each and everytime we started to fook up, would we as a species develop morally at the same rate that we (hopefully) develop now? How do we learn the lesson if we're not allowed to live out the experience? A baby dying of cancer or thousands of people getting washed into the sea doesn't develop anyone morally. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Would we not be better as a species growing up, accepting that there is no god , and accepting responsibility for our actions ?? but what sets the standard when it comes to responsibility? how can someone say I'm not being responsible if I believe I'm meeting the standards I proclaim for myself and to hell with anyone else? A baby dying of cancer or thousands of people getting washed into the sea doesn't develop anyone morally. and I believe that when you witness those things, you are changed. Maybe not directly in a moral sense, but surely you are affected indirectly. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Would we not be better as a species growing up, accepting that there is no god , and accepting responsibility for our actions ?? but what sets the standard when it comes to responsibility? how can someone say I'm not being responsible if I believe I'm meeting the standards I proclaim for myself and to hell with anyone else? A baby dying of cancer or thousands of people getting washed into the sea doesn't develop anyone morally. and I believe that when you witness those things, you are changed. Maybe not directly in a moral sense, but surely you are affected indirectly. I don't know, quank, when I look deep in my heart and ask myself why J. Travolta's son died of this disease, the answer is, because along with incredible beauty, nature is also cruel. So I have to conclude that if there is a God, He created this beautiful cruel world, and it is a reflection of Himself. He gave us a sense for the beautiful as well as for the cruel. And He has both in Him. Or else He doesn't exist. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Quank and Story, have you read The Shack? I think it's interesting that one of you is a Christian and one a Jew (like myself) but you might find that book to be in keeping with what you're both saying. I was moved by it anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The Shack is a good book ! I just began to read it. It talks about "where is God when bad thing happened?" the first several pages already moved me. The author himself experienced tough life, he questioned God and found answers Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The Shack is a good book ! I just began to read it. It talks about "where is God when bad thing happened?" the first several pages already moved me. The author himself experienced tough life, he questioned God and found answers It's a wonderful book Bird! This thread made me think of it since it does address the topic about where God is when bad things happen...and why he "lets" them happen. It was a moving and beautiful book and really made me think. By the way, I believe they're making this into a movie. I hope they do it justice and don't "commercialize" it too much. Be prepared to cry your eyes out lovelybird. It's a beautiful and very moving book. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 It's a wonderful book Bird! This thread made me think of it since it does address the topic about where God is when bad things happen...and why he "lets" them happen. It was a moving and beautiful book and really made me think. By the way, I believe they're making this into a movie. I hope they do it justice and don't "commercialize" it too much. Be prepared to cry your eyes out lovelybird. It's a beautiful and very moving book. Yes, it would be good kind of cry, Touche ! The hero in this book is so charming , only read a summary of his experience now Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ross PK Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 dex, you've made me wonder now: If God stepped in each and everytime we started to fook up, would we as a species develop morally at the same rate that we (hopefully) develop now? How do we learn the lesson if we're not allowed to live out the experience? Well why couldn't he have just made us already morally developed? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ross PK Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 Just thoguht of something. If there is such a thing as God, then maybe there is such a thing as the devil, and it is he who makes the bad things happen? Obviously that would mean that it would be difficult for God to stop bad things from happening since the devil is probably really powerful too? Man, I feel crazy talking like this. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 A baby dying of cancer or thousands of people getting washed into the sea doesn't develop anyone morally. I don´t have an answer for the cancer one. (I have a suspicion is man made). But I´ve heard that no wild animals were killed in the Tsunami. They all had the instinct to run away as if they knew it was coming. http://archive.dailypicture.net/sumatra_tsunami_wild_animals_survive_unharmed_in_sri_lanka.htm Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 A friend of mine also recommended this book so I will try to get it. Actually that is where the quote comes from where the Holy Spirit says, "I will go anywhere to find you." Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Well why couldn't he have just made us already morally developed? He doesn't control us. We have free will. Yes, do read the book Story. It's not the kind of book I would normally gravitate towards but I'm glad I did read it. Also, I never read a book more than once but this is the kind of book I can see picking up again. I think, depending on your stage in life, you will get different things out of it. You should read it Ross. It might give you some of the answers you're looking for. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 This thread actually had me thinking last night quite a bit. I don't like the idea that God is sadistic, nor that he doesn't exist at all. So I'd be happy for another explanation. I personally also think God is unreasonably obsessed with reproductive issues. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I don't know, quank, when I look deep in my heart and ask myself why J. Travolta's son died of this disease, the answer is, because along with incredible beauty, nature is also cruel. Wikipedia: "Some studies have found associations between the occurrence of Kawasaki disease and recent exposure to carpet cleaning or residence near a body of stagnant water; however, cause and effect have not been established." Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Thanks Ariadne. I hear what you're saying. There is always the possibility that humans cause some of these problems, but there was plenty of cruelty in nature before we even arrived on the scene. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Thanks Ariadne. I hear what you're saying. There is always the possibility that humans cause some of these problems, but there was plenty of cruelty in nature before we even arrived on the scene. Just look at the order out there. From every galaxy in motion, to every atom in your body. They all have an order. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Just look at the order out there. From every galaxy in motion, to every atom in your body. They all have an order. Yes, I'm with you on that one. And also the love and goodness and beauty that is out there. Following through on that way of thinking, we can't appreciate order without knowing chaos, and we can't experience beauty without knowing ugliness. So that would explain why He plays by these rules--maybe--except wouldn't He have created the rules in the first place? Why did he make it a world of contrasts? Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Following through on that way of thinking, we can't appreciate order without knowing chaos, and we can't experience beauty without knowing ugliness. So that would explain why He plays by these rules--maybe--except wouldn't He have created the rules in the first place? Why did he make it a world of contrasts? I don´t think God creates ugliness for you to appreciate beauty. All creation is beautiful, and it is deep in your heart to admire it in awe. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Thinking of God as a novelist (or a programmer if you'd rather)--you set up rules and then you play by them within that framework. It looks like that is what God did. Ariadne, do you really think that a tiger chasing down a baby deer and bringing it to its knees breaking its neck and eating its flesh is beautiful? To whom is it beautiful? We can admire the fluid movements of the tiger, but if we're honest, we have to admit it is ugly for the deer. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 But maybe we can admire the nature and order of things. I mean we can focus on the deer or the fact that the tiger didn't die of starvation, right? Read this and see what the author says about the nature of evil vis-a-vis God: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/07/shack-mum-on-god-and-evil-question/ Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 But maybe we can admire the nature and order of things. I mean we can focus on the deer or the fact that the tiger didn't die of starvation, right? Read this and see what the author says about the nature of evil vis-a-vis God: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/07/shack-mum-on-god-and-evil-question/ OK, I'm reading it, but let me just say, Touche, that woman's picture is HORRIBLE! She needs a new picture. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 OK, I'm reading it, but let me just say, Touche, that woman's picture is HORRIBLE! She needs a new picture. But God created her. Can't you find any beauty in the woman?:lmao: (I'm still looking...I'll get back to you on that.) Ugh..I also didn't like her review either. Sheesh. She seems kind of simple-minded to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The quote from him does raise a good point about why God might not stop evil behavior in humans. I understand that it is problematic if we have free will. But I still don't understand so much about disease, pestilence, starvation when they're not man-made. Think about the plagues of locusts that devoured all the farmers' crops in rural America. Why did that have to happen? Why did God create a female spider who eats her mate after copulation? Christianity would have it that humans are somehow at fault for these things? Link to post Share on other sites
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