Does God do bad things?

[Touche]

Yes, I always thought you were not religious but very spiritual Ariadne.

 

And I hear you on jumping off that bridge. I'd be the same way.

 

Interesting post Geisha.

[Geishawhelk]

Please don't take this as a criticism, but I would have thought that somebody Spiritual would have the ability to look beyond the tragic, and NOT to jump off a bridge..... The whole point of devoting one's self to a spiritual path is to accumulate and develop enough Spirituality to be able to endure such trials, obstacles and challenges.....

[Touche]

Please don't take this as a criticism, but I would have thought that somebody Spiritual would have the ability to look beyond the tragic, and NOT to jump off a bridge..... The whole point of devoting one's self to a spiritual path is to accumulate and develop enough Spirituality to be able to endure such trials, obstacles and challenges.....

 

I thought she meant it tongue and cheek. Maybe I was wrong though.

[Ross PK]

He doesn't control us. We have free will.

 

It's still better for him to have made it so it was automatically installed in us, instead of bad things having to happen for us to end up morally developed.

 

But maybe we can admire the nature and order of things. I mean we can focus on the deer or the fact that the tiger didn't die of starvation, right?

 

Read this and see what the author says about the nature of evil vis-a-vis God:

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/07/shack-mum-on-god-and-evil-question/

 

God should've made tigers to be only interested in fruit.

[Ross PK]

To be honest, if God is able to control everything, then there is simply no excuse for suffering. It really doesn't matter what anyone says.

[knaveman]

we create our own suffering.

[Storyrider]

To be honest, if God is able to control everything, then there is simply no excuse for suffering. It really doesn't matter what anyone says.

Do you feel angry at God, Ross?

[Touche]

we create our own suffering.

 

I have to say that in most cases of human suffering, I think this is true.

[Ross PK]

Do you feel angry at God, Ross?

 

I don't know whether I believe in God, and if there is such a thing I don't know if he does have control over everything.

[Ross PK]

we create our own suffering.

 

Tell that to a rape victim or to someone who's dying with cancer. I'm quite sure they didn't make this happen themselves.

[Geishawhelk]

Ross, I am a rape victim.

I could be suffering, but I have chosen not to.

The point is, the action was not my responsibility.

My REaction to the rape, is my responsibility.

I can keep remaining depressed about it, resentful, angry, mournful, hostile and gutted.

 

But I chose not to.

So - I am responsible for MY OWN suffering.

I chose to not suffer.

 

That's what that phrase means.

We're all responsible for our own suffering to the extent that we can either choose to perpetuate it, or let it drop.

 

 

I dropped it.

[Ross PK]

Ross, I am a rape victim.

I could be suffering, but I have chosen not to.

The point is, the action was not my responsibility.

My REaction to the rape, is my responsibility.

I can keep remaining depressed about it, resentful, angry, mournful, hostile and gutted.

 

But I chose not to.

So - I am responsible for MY OWN suffering.

I chose to not suffer.

 

That's what that phrase means.

We're all responsible for our own suffering to the extent that we can either choose to perpetuate it, or let it drop.

 

 

I dropped it.

 

I'm sorry this happened, but for a lot of people it's not that easy to just make themselves suddenly feel better, plus, they would've still suffered in the first place.

[Geishawhelk]

You're not getting it.

 

Physical suffering, whilst real, is temporary.

The body heals, the scars close up.

 

Mental suffering is more prolonged, but can be eliminated.

You just have to have the right direction, and the right attitude.

 

if people haven't mentally healed with regard to something that happened to them, then it's possible they have not received sufficient counselling, therapy, advice or support.

 

But at the end of the day, all these measures are props.

Nobody can eliminate the suffering FOR you.

They can help, guide, support and steer - but you're still the one who has to drop it.

 

Does that make it any clearer?

[quankanne]

when a parent suffers because his/her child dies it's because they're ignorant?

 

more like they suffer because they've been hit by a whammy. The natural order of things is that the elders die first, and new lives arrive to strengthen the family/tribe. When a child dies, parents don't expect that to happen. Or they fear that it'll happen, but please God, not to them.

 

ignorance can only play a role when it comes to someone's heartless reaction to another person's pain – we see that in the Travolta thread, where one poster is adamant that Scientology and the Travoltas' "inaction" is to blame. There, but for the grace of God, go I ...

[disgracian]

I'm sorry this happened, but for a lot of people it's not that easy to just make themselves suddenly feel better, plus, they would've still suffered in the first place.

I don't think Geisha was implying that anything was easy. Perhaps simple in hindsight, but not easy.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Ross PK]

You're not getting it.

 

Physical suffering, whilst real, is temporary.

The body heals, the scars close up.

 

Mental suffering is more prolonged, but can be eliminated.

You just have to have the right direction, and the right attitude.

 

if people haven't mentally healed with regard to something that happened to them, then it's possible they have not received sufficient counselling, therapy, advice or support.

 

But at the end of the day, all these measures are props.

Nobody can eliminate the suffering FOR you.

They can help, guide, support and steer - but you're still the one who has to drop it.

 

Does that make it any clearer?

 

It's still not always that easy though, some people can't make themselves feel better. Just because someone is still suffering mentally doesn't make it their doing, like it's their fault. Do you really think they want to feel that way?

 

That's why if God does allow bad things to happen, I don't think it's right to shift the blame onto ourselves and say it's we who creates our suffering, as an excuse for God just sitting there leaning back watching people and animals suffer when he could stop it.

[Geishawhelk]

It's still not always that easy though, some people can't make themselves feel better. Just because someone is still suffering mentally doesn't make it their doing, like it's their fault. Do you really think they want to feel that way?

 

Possibly.

I have met many people who wilfully remain in a despondent state and bring everyone else down with them, because they refuse ro help themselves.

They're often called "Emotional Vampires/Leeches".

However, as Disgracian pointed out, I wasn't implying this is easy.

It IS simple, however.

Simple, because the solution really is to decide that you are not going to permit yourself to be miserable - suffer - for one moment more.

 

I'm not saying somebody's suffering IS their fault. Someone else obviously is responsible here.

And that responsibility should be accepted.

but it's everyone's own responsibility to determine how they themselves feel.

The choice of whether to keep wallowing, or not, is "your" (my, everybody's) own choice.

[Ross PK]

Possibly.

I have met many people who wilfully remain in a despondent state and bring everyone else down with them, because they refuse ro help themselves.

They're often called "Emotional Vampires/Leeches".

However, as Disgracian pointed out, I wasn't implying this is easy.

It IS simple, however.

Simple, because the solution really is to decide that you are not going to permit yourself to be miserable - suffer - for one moment more.

 

I'm not saying somebody's suffering IS their fault. Someone else obviously is responsible here.

And that responsibility should be accepted.

but it's everyone's own responsibility to determine how they themselves feel.

The choice of whether to keep wallowing, or not, is "your" (my, everybody's) own choice.

 

I like to think of it as letting yourself grieve, it's a healing process. I've tried to make myself feel better, I've tried to get over it, and not allow myself to grieve/wallow, but it actually makes me feel worse.

[Geishawhelk]

Look, PM me if you want to, because I'm happy to discuss this with you in detail, but I'm not sure doing it on open forum is very wise.

I have no problems with it, but I'd like to take your right to privacy - and your right to express yourself - as a thing to respect.

[Touche]

Look, PM me if you want to, because I'm happy to discuss this with you in detail, but I'm not sure doing it on open forum is very wise.

I have no problems with it, but I'd like to take your right to privacy - and your right to express yourself - as a thing to respect.

 

How is this compromising Ross's privacy. I wish you'd continue the discussion. It might be prove to be very useful for others.

 

I mean the discussion between you and Ross is one I've been following closely because I've been going through this with my mother.

 

Geisha, I've said the same things to her as you're saying to Ross and she's saying what Ross is saying. She's been grieving her husband's death for 8 years now. And when I tell her the things you've been saying she said I'm a DGI. DGI is what people on her widow/widower call people who just Don't Get It. I don't get what I don't get?

 

I thought this discussion would help me in some way to help her. And I'm sure others could benefit.

 

I'm just not sure how this compromises Ross's privacy though.

[Ross PK]

Look, PM me if you want to, because I'm happy to discuss this with you in detail, but I'm not sure doing it on open forum is very wise.

I have no problems with it, but I'd like to take your right to privacy - and your right to express yourself - as a thing to respect.

 

I don't have any PM priviledges yet.

 

But don't worry, this discussion doesn't compromise my privacy, I mean look at all the other things I've admitted to on here.

[Geishawhelk]

Well, if I tell you how it might compromise his privacy, it would lead me to cross a boundary and discuss something he may consider private....!

I will just say that Ross has had therapy for some conditions.

 

What your Mother is saying is that you just don't understand what it's like to have someone close to you die.

That's what you "don't get".

 

What she truly doesn't get is that there's a difference between grieving and wallowing.

It's ok to grieve, but to keep carrying the sorrow around like sackcloth and ashes, is just an unnecessary burden.

 

However, insofar as grieving for a dead loved one - some people really do never get over it.

Occasionally it's a guilt, an obligation they feel to keep mourning, otherwise it's a betrayal of that person's memory.

 

And whilst we may feel frustrated at their remaining stuck in a certain mind-frame, the tragedy is that unless they don't get it off their own back - they never will. We can't fix them.

 

Would be great, huh?

But we can't.

[Geishawhelk]

Thank you Ross, I appreciate that, but I would feel very uncomfortable even risking stepping on someone's toes.....if you discuss it with others, that's one thing. Your decision.

I would never presume to do so, in case I reveal something you wouldn't want exposed.....

 

[Ross PK]

I will just say that Ross has had therapy for some conditions.

 

When you put it like that it makes things sound way worse and a bit embarrassing.

 

I just suffer from social anxiety and depression, that's all.

[Geishawhelk]

There's no such thing as "just". That trivialises things.

 

Your conditions are real, and I'm sure at times, very frustrating to you.

They're a challenge and something you have to deal with.

 

Kudos to you for having the strength and determination to work with them.

 

Many don't.

 

 

That's all.