Does God do bad things?

[Touche]

Well, if I tell you how it might compromise his privacy, it would lead me to cross a boundary and discuss something he may consider private....!

I will just say that Ross has had therapy for some conditions.

 

What your Mother is saying is that you just don't understand what it's like to have someone close to you die.

That's what you "don't get".

 

But I don't think it's that simple. I think what she's trying to tell me is that it's not something she can just "get over." I mean I get that part. It's the wallowing part (as you stated) that I'm not getting. It's been 8 years and she never leaves her house. She has no life. And she whines all the time about it. I mean it would be one thing if she was ok with that life, but she's not.

 

What she truly doesn't get is that there's a difference between grieving and wallowing.

 

You hit the nail on the head with that one. She goes crazy if I say anything like that though and tells me I'm a DGI.

 

It's ok to grieve, but to keep carrying the sorrow around like sackcloth and ashes, is just an unnecessary burden.

 

Agreed.

 

However, insofar as grieving for a dead loved one - some people really do never get over it.

Occasionally it's a guilt, an obligation they feel to keep mourning, otherwise it's a betrayal of that person's memory.

 

Perhaps that's what it is all about. I don't know.

 

And whilst we may feel frustrated at their remaining stuck in a certain mind-frame, the tragedy is that unless they don't get it off their own back - they never will. We can't fix them.

 

Would be great, huh?

But we can't.

 

I know you're right.

 

As for Ross, yes he's been pretty open and honest about his issues. I admire that. But it's up to you if you don't want to talk about this on the open forum anymore.

[JamesM]

When you put it like that it makes things sound way worse and a bit embarrassing.

 

I just suffer from social anxiety and depression, that's all.

 

Not meaning to interrupt but I have been following this discussion a bit, and depression is not trivial.

 

Twenty years ago, I suffered from it and it wasn't until about fifteen years ago that I could say that it was no longer a problem. At first it was debilitating, but after counseling and discussion, I had a better idea of what I was dealing with. Even still it took awhile before I didn't cycle into times of depression.

 

It should not be considered embarrassing nor trivial. Many many people suffer from it even if they never tell you. It certainly is hard to admit that one has a "weakness" or vulnerability especially if you are a guy and you are telling a guy, but the reality is both men and women suffer from depression. While the men have a tougher time telling about their feelings and hence have trouble identifying the condition, nevertheless, they also suffer from it.

 

Ross, you are commended for identifying the problem and seeking a solution. One day, I think you will be able to look back at this depression because you sought help.

 

Sorry...back to topic.

 

Grief is incredibly difficult for anyone to deal with even those who believe that God is there as a solace and help. And wallowing in grief happens to many of us. It is easy to tell someone that they should move on, but each has his or her own way of handling grief.

 

Personally, I have a tough time crying. It is not that I think it isn't good to cry, but it seems to be difficult. I can be overwhelmed with grief and tears may come out, but actual crying is quite difficult. Others can cry at the hint of sadness. Some can grieve for a day or two and then move beyond it. Others will grieve for months. Some simply deny they have grief and internalize it.

 

So I think for any of us to say to someone that "You are wallowing in your grief," is presumptuous.

 

Does God cause bad things? Rather it should be asked...does God allow bad things? And the answer is yes.

 

Why? Only God knows in many cases.

[Ross PK]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think social anxiety and depression are trivial at all. I said 'just' because the quote made it sound as though I had worse problems or something.

[Ross PK]

Not meaning to interrupt but I have been following this discussion a bit, and depression is not trivial.

 

Twenty years ago, I suffered from it and it wasn't until about fifteen years ago that I could say that it was no longer a problem. At first it was debilitating, but after counseling and discussion, I had a better idea of what I was dealing with. Even still it took awhile before I didn't cycle into times of depression.

 

It should not be considered embarrassing nor trivial. Many many people suffer from it even if they never tell you. It certainly is hard to admit that one has a "weakness" or vulnerability especially if you are a guy and you are telling a guy, but the reality is both men and women suffer from depression. While the men have a tougher time telling about their feelings and hence have trouble identifying the condition, nevertheless, they also suffer from it.

 

Ross, you are commended for identifying the problem and seeking a solution. One day, I think you will be able to look back at this depression because you sought help.

 

Sorry...back to topic.

 

Grief is incredibly difficult for anyone to deal with even those who believe that God is there as a solace and help. And wallowing in grief happens to many of us. It is easy to tell someone that they should move on, but each has his or her own way of handling grief.

 

Personally, I have a tough time crying. It is not that I think it isn't good to cry, but it seems to be difficult. I can be overwhelmed with grief and tears may come out, but actual crying is quite difficult. Others can cry at the hint of sadness. Some can grieve for a day or two and then move beyond it. Others will grieve for months. Some simply deny they have grief and internalize it.

 

So I think for any of us to say to someone that "You are wallowing in your grief," is presumptuous.

 

Does God cause bad things? Rather it should be asked...does God allow bad things? And the answer is yes.

 

Why? Only God knows in many cases.

 

Yes I'm the same, there are times where I'm so upset that I wish I could cry to make me feel better, but I just can't, at the most on the rare occasion I can manage a few tears but then it just stops.

[Geishawhelk]

I know you're right.

 

As for Ross, yes he's been pretty open and honest about his issues. I admire that. But it's up to you if you don't want to talk about this on the open forum anymore.

 

I'm fine if everyone else is. I just don't want to cross anyone's boundaries. Heck, I have very few barriers, I'm extremely open. Counselling does that. It ain't half an eye-opener!

 

So Ross, whaddy a think so far?

 

Touche, you know, sometimes it's also a generation thing.

Remember that once upon a time, women were expected to mourn their husbands for anything up to 5 years!

I'm not implying your mum's THAT old(!) but maybe she's of the "old School" that still deems it necessary to speak of the dead in hushed tones and reverence.....

My aunt is a bit like that.

[Ross PK]

So Ross, whaddy a think so far?

 

Lol, of what?

[Touche]

I'm fine if everyone else is. I just don't want to cross anyone's boundaries. Heck, I have very few barriers, I'm extremely open. Counselling does that. It ain't half an eye-opener!

 

So Ross, whaddy a think so far?

 

Touche, you know, sometimes it's also a generation thing.

Remember that once upon a time, women were expected to mourn their husbands for anything up to 5 years!

I'm not implying your mum's THAT old(!) but maybe she's of the "old School" that still deems it necessary to speak of the dead in hushed tones and reverence.....

My aunt is a bit like that.

 

I'm laughing because while she's almost 70 there's nothing "old School" about the woman! Trust me.

 

Actually James touched on something:

 

So I think for any of us to say to someone that "You are wallowing in your grief," is presumptuous.

 

That's it. That's exactly it. That's when I get the "DGI" comments from her. I guess I'll never get it. I swear I think her Widow/Widower board enables her.

 

She should come here! Boy, if she thinks I smack her around too much...I'm a pussy cat compared to the beating she'd get on here.

[Geishawhelk]

Touche, :laugh:

 

I know what you mean, I just took a stab in the dark...

 

Whereas my aunt is like that, my mother - who at 76 is a qualified reflexologist and Aromtherapist - also does Yoga, teaches English to italian Students, is a qualified Tourist Guide and runs Italian cookery classes! Phenomenal.....

 

Sorry, OT.

 

[Eve]

This topic is flowing beautifully. I have enjoyed reading it so much. Thank you all.

 

I would just like to add that someone once told me that the whole God doing evil (?) topic is much the same in essence as how different states are perceived. For example water has many different forms. Once water evaporates, from a molecular perspective it is still water but has taken a different form. The changing of forms is what God speaks about within all religious texts through the lives of the prophets and saints .. with the whole underpinning emphasis being on how to be consistent within your own form as it changes. So I see 'evil' as the evaporation process of what is good. It is still water (it still exists) but in a different form.

 

My overall present standing within my spititual musings is that we are here to learn to ask the right questions... then this uncharted thing called 'the mind' opens up.

 

Regards,

Eve xx

[Touche]

Touche, :laugh:

 

I know what you mean, I just took a stab in the dark...

 

Whereas my aunt is like that, my mother - who at 76 is a qualified reflexologist and Aromtherapist - also does Yoga, teaches English to italian Students, is a qualified Tourist Guide and runs Italian cookery classes! Phenomenal.....

 

Sorry, OT.

 

 

She sounds like quite a woman, Geish.

 

This topic is flowing beautifully. I have enjoyed reading it so much. Thank you all.

 

I would just like to add that someone once told me that the whole God doing evil (?) topic is much the same in essence as how different states are perceived. For example water has many different forms. Once water evaporates, from a molecular perspective it is still water but has taken a different form. The changing of forms is what God speaks about within all religious texts through the lives of the prophets and saints .. with the whole underpinning emphasis being on how to be consistent within your own form as it changes. So I see 'evil' as the evaporation process of what is good. It is still water (it still exists) but in a different form.

 

My overall present standing within my spititual musings is that we are here to learn to ask the right questions... then this uncharted thing called 'the mind' opens up.

 

Regards,

Eve xx

 

Nice post, Eve. And why does that sound familiar to me? Was that in The Shack? (The book I mentioned earlier?) It rings a bell. I can't remember if I read that in the book or heard that elsewhere.

 

Yes, great thread Ross. It's really made me think about some things. You sure would get along with my mother though! She used to believe in God but ever since her husband died, she questions his existence saying if there was a God he wouldn't be letting her suffer this long...that he would relieve her of the pain somehow (even through death!)

 

But what good is it to think that way? How does that improve anyone's life? Shouldn't we be making the very best of things while we're here? Take some chances and get outside of our comfort zone sometimes?

[Eve]

Touche.. I will have to order this 'Shack' book.. The title alone is very inspiring in a sort of unidentifiable way..

 

I say take Mom to a reputable medium. I know that this is not a conventional response but after my much reading and personal experience with the world of spirit I say .. do it.

 

If I lost my Hubby I know that I would be MESSED UP and would be thinking about him for all of my days. I am strong in myself but the connection we share is TOO strong for words.

 

Regards,

Eve xx

[knaveman]

If my life is miserable because of a loved ones death it is because I have not chosen to let that pain go. The act, the death, is out of my control. The grief and pain I feel from the loss is a natural reaction. The continued mourning and suffering because of the loss and the pain is my doing. Granted some people don't know how to let things go, but some don't seem to want to learn either.

 

We seem to want to find external reasons for our own suffering and sure, there are plenty of examples of pain and suffering out of our control, but most people don't seem to be willing to look at themselves as a source of the suffering. The truth is, we are the only ones responsible for our actions, thoughts, and feelings. And because of that we have the ability to change and control them if we choose to learn.

 

Think about heartbreak. We have all had our hearts broken I'm sure. It sucks, it hurts, and we suffer because of it. Then we get over it at some point. What changed from the day of the break up to the day you got over it? Only your mind.

 

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's suffering or pain. I have suffered plenty in my life too. I have gotten over a lot and still struggle to get over more. Getting over the pain of losing a loved one is difficult for anyone. It's a big pain to let go of. You usually have to start smaller than that. Baby steps.

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussion as well. Hope my contribution is useful.

[Touche]

Wow, knaveman. VERY useful. I'm going to have to read that one again and again and somehow get this across to my mom so that she doesn't call me a DGI anymore.

 

Thank you so much for that insightful post.

 

Yes, Eve do get the book. I think you'll appreciate it judging from what you've posted here.

 

As for the medium stuff...no way. Sorry, she'd laugh in my face. I know her.

 

Eve, I hear you. I'd probably kill myself (or throw myself off that bridge Ariadne spoke of) if anything happened to my husband. So who am I to say how I'd react or how she should you know?

 

Humbling thread.

 

For me personally, this has been one of the most useful threads in a long time. It's making me think about so many things..including how I can improve on my relationship with my mom.

 

Again thanks Ross.

[Lovelybird]

What you believe will keep you there. There is a pastor that advocate people to FAST for 40 days. Fast not from food, but from poisoning thinking, negative thinking. There are several major testimonies. One woman said she was tempted to suicide, she hooked up with alchoholic, drugs. But she did the fasting programe. In three days she went to a church, after that she gradually quit alchohol and drugs, up until now in six months she didn't touch alchohol or drugs.

 

If you believe God is bad, your eyes would focus on bad things, your mind meditate bad things, think about negative things about yourself, and what you think about yourself will become what you are in reality. Bible teaches that "meditate on good things, think about what is lovely, what is noble, what is worthy of praise....", and IMO relationship with God makes everything meaningful, God is love, and love is the motivation for our desire to live and thrive

 

God is no respect of person. HE said whoever seek ME will find me. Isn't this wonderful?

 

If you really want to do something about your social anxiety, there are many good books and tapes that deal with this issue. Joyce Meyer has a teaching "free to be me", she had very hard life in her early days, if someone can relate to your pain and how to overcome that, that is her.

 

If you really want something changes, all changes begin from your heart and mind. so what you feed your mind (what you read what you listen what you believe) is very key here.

[georgehutton]

some religions talk about how God punishes people for being gay and does all sorts of other hateful things.

 

If this is true, that God does bad things, doesn't that make him a bad person? Why would these people want to follow a bad person?

 

Usually God punishes people that are outside of the group that worship said God, therefore, to them, he isn't bad, he is good because he is punishing bad people.

 

A good rule of thumb is to find a god that NOBODY can claim as a punisher of people. Let me know what you find.

[Ross PK]

She sounds like quite a woman, Geish.

 

 

 

Nice post, Eve. And why does that sound familiar to me? Was that in The Shack? (The book I mentioned earlier?) It rings a bell. I can't remember if I read that in the book or heard that elsewhere.

 

Yes, great thread Ross. It's really made me think about some things. You sure would get along with my mother though! She used to believe in God but ever since her husband died, she questions his existence saying if there was a God he wouldn't be letting her suffer this long...that he would relieve her of the pain somehow (even through death!)

 

But what good is it to think that way? How does that improve anyone's life? Shouldn't we be making the very best of things while we're here? Take some chances and get outside of our comfort zone sometimes?

 

I dunno, it's just what I've been thinking and I'd enjoy hearing what other people have got to say, especially people who follow a God who doesn't seem like a nice person/entity. Lot's of things don't improve your life, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do/think them.

[Ross PK]

If my life is miserable because of a loved ones death it is because I have not chosen to let that pain go. The act, the death, is out of my control. The grief and pain I feel from the loss is a natural reaction. The continued mourning and suffering because of the loss and the pain is my doing. Granted some people don't know how to let things go, but some don't seem to want to learn either.

 

We seem to want to find external reasons for our own suffering and sure, there are plenty of examples of pain and suffering out of our control, but most people don't seem to be willing to look at themselves as a source of the suffering. The truth is, we are the only ones responsible for our actions, thoughts, and feelings. And because of that we have the ability to change and control them if we choose to learn.

 

Think about heartbreak. We have all had our hearts broken I'm sure. It sucks, it hurts, and we suffer because of it. Then we get over it at some point. What changed from the day of the break up to the day you got over it? Only your mind.

 

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's suffering or pain. I have suffered plenty in my life too. I have gotten over a lot and still struggle to get over more. Getting over the pain of losing a loved one is difficult for anyone. It's a big pain to let go of. You usually have to start smaller than that. Baby steps.

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussion as well. Hope my contribution is useful.

 

You're right that the reaction is natural, you're right that getting over it is hard. So let's look at God who could have prevented it in the first place but chose not too (if that's the case), let's look at the person that inflicted the pain. It's those things that should be focused on instead of brushing them aside as though they're irrelevant and the problem is just with the person who is suffering, like they they should just 'snap out of it', or they're 'just choosing to feel that way'.

[knaveman]

God DOES do bad things. He also does good things. Sure God can prevent bad things from happening, but doesn't he also prevent good things from happening?

 

I think first you have to decide what is good and what is bad. Good and bad are a matter of perspective. What you may say is God doing something bad may seem like a good thing to someone else. We can all agree that life threatening diseases and illness are a bad thing. What a person afflicted with the disease or illness changes their lives because of the disease? What if they gain a glorious new outlook on life and live happily and fulfilled until their death? Would they then call the disease or illness a bad thing?

 

I know God does bad things, but I don't think he does them as punishment. Some religions preach that and many people believe that. I don't. I believe that everything that happens to us happens for a reason. What we initially take as something bad may easily end up being good to some degree. I think that the things that we perceive as bad are actually there to teach us things.

 

People do bad things as well, but we can't control what someone else does anymore than we can control what God does. Why dwell on the act? Once it has happened we can't change it or make it go away. We can learn from it and try to prevent it from ever happening again.

 

Is God a bad person because he lets bad things happen? Is he a good person because he lets good things happen? He is neither. He just is. He is our greatest teacher in the lesson of life and the lesson is only over when we die.

[Lovelybird]

Truely God is a teacher, a good teacher. I found out every trial in life is a lesson, people either stay in there or go higher, depends their attitude, do they stay whining, or are they curious what the life lesson is, WHAT they can learn from it. Well, there are limits we feel we've reach our utmost ability, the moment I admited it, and ask God, the moment strength came in. That is amazing. One day I felt so lonely, I asked God to fill my heart with His love, instantly I felt great peace and joy. And there are so many little signs God sends to us to show HE is in our lives and love us. Nothing is more beautiful than God's love, nothing can compare.

 

Sometimes we have to have the spiritual eyes to see who God is. If one's eyes are too limited to the circumstances, he would miss the purpose of life.

 

And The Shack is really inspiring

[Ross PK]

God DOES do bad things. He also does good things. Sure God can prevent bad things from happening, but doesn't he also prevent good things from happening?

 

I think first you have to decide what is good and what is bad. Good and bad are a matter of perspective. What you may say is God doing something bad may seem like a good thing to someone else. We can all agree that life threatening diseases and illness are a bad thing. What a person afflicted with the disease or illness changes their lives because of the disease? What if they gain a glorious new outlook on life and live happily and fulfilled until their death? Would they then call the disease or illness a bad thing?

 

I know God does bad things, but I don't think he does them as punishment. Some religions preach that and many people believe that. I don't. I believe that everything that happens to us happens for a reason. What we initially take as something bad may easily end up being good to some degree. I think that the things that we perceive as bad are actually there to teach us things.

 

People do bad things as well, but we can't control what someone else does anymore than we can control what God does. Why dwell on the act? Once it has happened we can't change it or make it go away. We can learn from it and try to prevent it from ever happening again.

 

Is God a bad person because he lets bad things happen? Is he a good person because he lets good things happen? He is neither. He just is. He is our greatest teacher in the lesson of life and the lesson is only over when we die.

 

Well, I still don't see it as okay if God does do bad things or let's bad things happen if he can stop them.

 

Do you think the same way as this about people who do bad things?

[Geishawhelk]

Ross, if you've decided for yourself that God doesn't exist, then your whole line of questioning is illogical.

Why question someone's actions, if you don't believe they're there to act them?

[Ross PK]

I already explained why it isn't illogical a few pages back.

[Geishawhelk]

So why do you want answers? (trying to find your relevant post....)

 

What I mean is, this discussion is futile.

Those who believe in God, justify, explain, elaborate, and give their pOV's and opinions.

Those who don't, I see no point in their replying, because the bottom line is that if there is no God, bad things happen, good things happen, just 'because'.

There's no point debating, discussing or arguing about a point that to a non-believer is both illogical and immaterial.

 

Isn't what you're really saying:

"I would like people who believe in God to tell me why their God does bad things, or if they don't think S/He does, to tell me why. However, I don't care either way, because I'm a non-believer."

 

....isn't it.........? :confused:

[Ross PK]

You even said you got me, when replying to that post.

 

Even D-lish said "I don't think you need to establish whether or not you believe in god before asking this question."

[Blessings]

I dont believe God does bad things, God is good...

 

 

some things happen because there is good & evil in the world...Whenever bad things come my way, I pray and try to do things to make it better.