Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The quote from him does raise a good point about why God might not stop evil behavior in humans. I understand that it is problematic if we have free will. But I still don't understand so much about disease, pestilence, starvation when they're not man-made. Think about the plagues of locusts that devoured all the farmers' crops in rural America. Why did that have to happen? Why did God create a female spider who eats her mate after copulation? Christianity would have it that humans are somehow at fault for these things? All very good questions, which are addressed in the book. I really should read it again. I think for the most part Christianity does fault humans for most tragic events but then they allow for the fact that some things are simply out of our control. It's just the natural order of things. I don't know. These are thought-provoking questions. There must be some good reason why the female eats her mate after copulation and we don't. For the life of me I can't figure out why that would be though. Seems like God got that one reversed! Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Yes, I'm with you on that one. And also the love and goodness and beauty that is out there. Following through on that way of thinking, we can't appreciate order without knowing chaos, and we can't experience beauty without knowing ugliness. So that would explain why He plays by these rules--maybe--except wouldn't He have created the rules in the first place? Why did he make it a world of contrasts? That is just because in your own mind what the tiger did is something horrible. Most likely that deer died without feeling any pain in the most effective way. Nature knows its ways that you don´t understand. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 There must be some good reason why the female eats her mate after copulation and we don't. For the life of me I can't figure out why that would be though. Seems like God got that one reversed! Yeah, that could come in handy... I'm guessing there must be some genetic advantage to those spiders if the females have many partners and the males only have one. It strikes me that humans are the only animals that have reflection, so we are also the only animals to feel guilt, remorse, horror at things that happen in the world. We also have this need to believe in something greater than ourselves. As children we have our parents, but as adults we see they are imperfect, and so we look to God for that. He made us able to enjoy music, to enjoy literature, to sense beauty and tragedy. That allows us to feel higher forms of pleasure than a dog, but also more complex and emotionally intense sorts of pain. But why should we blame ourselves for this? It is who we are. I think heaven exists in moments of deep connection with another person and in moments of peace with one's own genuine emotions and thoughts. And hell is a feeling of isolation and aloneness. People who treat others like objects harden themselves against real human connections and even against being centered within themselves. So that is why evil leads to a sort of hell on earth that is a disconnectedness and an internal fracturing. This jives with what Judaism and Christianity say is the most important commandment, love thy neighbor as thyself. I think God is the spirit of Being. He exists because He *is* Existence. Still don't know how destruction and doom fits into this. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 :laugh: He made sex an incredible experience, therefore it *can't* be wrong ... can it? Man, I feel crazy talking like this. don't. Instead, think of it as broadening your horizons and helping you better understand just who you are. The Shack. Is that really the title of the book, or are y'all just trying to pull my leg here? Because I can be quite gullible without even trying. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maybe it's as Ariadne said: Nature knows its ways that you don´t understand. Maybe some things just aren't meant for us to understand. Maybe it all serves some higher purpose. I don't know. I don't know that we'll ever know. Maybe all the destruction and doom as you say, is here for a reason we just can't fathom. Maybe it's not even a negative in the general scheme of things. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Hey, Ariadne, this kind of supports your point... In the wild, animal suffering is minimized by predation where carnivores kill and consume sick, aged and injured animals and help regulate herbivore numbers and prevent habitat destruction from overpopulation/overgrazing http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id13.html Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 :laugh: He made sex an incredible experience, therefore it *can't* be wrong ... can it? Man, I feel crazy talking like this. don't. Instead, think of it as broadening your horizons and helping you better understand just who you are. The Shack. Is that really the title of the book, or are y'all just trying to pull my leg here? Because I can be quite gullible without even trying. Yes, look it up. It's really called that. It should have been called the Love Shack though. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maybe all the destruction and doom as you say, is here for a reason we just can't fathom. Maybe it's not even a negative in the general scheme of things. I'm willing to strongly consider that, but it sure sucks for the individual who is suffering. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Hey, Ariadne, this kind of supports your point... http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id13.html Yey! Go God! Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm willing to strongly consider that, but it sure sucks for the individual who is suffering. I know. It's hard to reconcile the idea that some people have to suffer the way they do. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Thing is, I can see how stubborn I am when I want to believe something because it feels good. I believe this or that will turn out alright, or that people will come through in the end, because it feels best to believe that. I can see how overactive my imagination is, and how I can invent elaborate explanations and stories to feel good about something that is bothering me. I can't help notice that this is human nature, and that it may be what is going on with religion. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 But even if that were true, is that so bad? Anything that gets us through this life and helps us cope can't be so bad can it? Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 No, I don't think it is bad at all, so long as it isn't used towards harming others. I remember Joseph Campbell wrote a lot in the 80s about how religion is composed of useful stories that strengthen a culture, and although he was an *sshole and also took it too far, I think he was onto something in general. I have to go and reread him. I think the story of Christ was a brilliant way to repackage and market Judaism, giving it a "brand" in the figure of Jesus, to make it more palatable to the masses. It worked. Not saying that is a bad thing at all. It spread the ten commandments and the One God around the world. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm willing to strongly consider that, but it sure sucks for the individual who is suffering. It´s said that suffering is the result of ignorance. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 No, I don't think it is bad at all, so long as it isn't used towards harming others. That's the kicker. Look at all the wars fought in the name of religion. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 It´s said that suffering is the result of ignorance. Do you think that's always the case? I don't. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Do you think that's always the case? I don't. Yes....... Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Yes....... Interesting perspective I must say. So let me ask this...when a parent suffers because his/her child dies it's because they're ignorant? Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Interesting perspective I must say. So let me ask this...when a parent suffers because his/her child dies it's because they're ignorant? Not if they know that everything will die some day, and that the day for the child has come. As the day will come for them too. It´s very difficult to accept. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Not if they know that everything will die some day, and that the day for the child has come. As the day will come for them too. It´s very difficult to accept. I see what you're saying, Ariadne. You're way, way more spiritually evolved than I am that's for sure! Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I don't know, quank, when I look deep in my heart and ask myself why J. Travolta's son died of this disease, the answer is, because along with incredible beauty, nature is also cruel. Nature is neither beautiful nor cruel. It is only humans who have created this concept of cruelty and beauty, plus and minus, good and bad. Nature is what nature is. Nature. It is only our concept that labels things as vicious, docile, predator, victim... nature just functions as a process. So I have to conclude that if there is a God, He created this beautiful cruel world, and it is a reflection of Himself. I have opinions on this statement, but I have very good friends on this board who are devout Christians. As I am Buddhist, I'll leave it there. Why did God create a female spider who eats her mate after copulation? Christianity would have it that humans are somehow at fault for these things? The spider didn't always eat her mate. Evolution has permitted certain animals to evolve and to adapt to their environments and circumstances. there are some species that have developped habits to exist purely and simply in one environment... like humming birds only drink nectar from one particular type of flower. So The nature of Animals is to adaspt and evolve in order to survive. We're evolving. Our little toes are getting smaller and smaller. In about 5,000 years, it's calculated that we'll only have 4 toes..... It´s said that suffering is the result of ignorance. Correct. Do you think that's always the case? I don't. Yes. To clarify: It is the result of craving, desire and grasping, which are borne out of ignorance. Not 'Ignorance' as in "I don't know" but 'Ignorance' as in "I'm not paying attention although it's staring me right in the face". Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I see what you're saying, Ariadne. You're way, way more spiritually evolved than I am that's for sure! Well, if it happened to me I would not suffer either. I´d just jump out of a bridge. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ross PK Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 I never had you down as the religious type, Ariadne. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I never had you down as the religious type, Ariadne. Well, I don´t follow any religion really. God to me is the intelligence of the universe. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 He doesn't control us. We have free will. That has nothing to do at all with how we were created. Nobody consented to being created, nor had any input into what we were to become. Your point about free will is meaningless in this context. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
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