What if your MM or MW had other Affairs?

[JamesM]

James, check this post for the allusion to someone making the argument that it is almost guaranteed a relationship with a cheater will lead to an STD. That is what I was referring to when questioning where you came up with the idea that anyone had put forth this allegation.

 

What happens when someone tries to browbeat someone in an affair is the tired old protest that "How could you put your wife at such high danger of an STD?" And while there is danger, my point is that in most cases the OW is NOT a walking STD. She is an ordinary woman who simply fell in love with a MM.

 

If a WS does not disclose that he or she is having sex with others, the BS is not being given information to make an informed decision regarding the risk to his or her health.

 

True. But my point is that here is NOT that there is no risk of an STD, but that the risk is the same as in any sexual situation. And while it is wrong to put your spouse at risk for any disease since you have vowed to protect and love that person, an STD is not as prevalent in most affairs as it would be in an "affair" with a prostitute.

 

There is no question that the BS is being wronged, but the question is...are STDs as big of a worry as is thought of?

 

Surely you are not contending that this situation in any way resembles a dating situation where there has been no misrepresentation.

 

It is no different than in any committed relationship when both are exclusive. It is different from the dating situation when there is no exclusivity.

 

There is no question that the WS is putting his or her partner at risk of an STD, but the question becomes...how often does the BS catch an STD because of the WS's affair? When it involves multiple individuals or paid professional sex workers, then the risk is much higher. When it involves two coworkers, then I question whether there is as much of a risk.

 

I am guessing that you still think that anyone who has an affair is an evil and awful person. And for that person to have chosen an affair shows a huge character flaw. What I doubt you will recognize is that most affairs are like the scenarios I described. A poor marriage, a disinterested spouse, and the failure of both partners to expend energy to keep the marital fires burning is what actually results in an affair.

 

Good people when put in bad situations under a weakened condition make stupid choices.

[Owl]

James, I think that you've hit the nail on the head for the basis of why many of us disagree here.

 

You (and many others) feel that most affairs are caused by bad marriages.

 

Reggie (and many others) feel that most affairs are an active choice to cheat.

 

 

As I'm sure you already well know, I tend to believe more along the lines of Reggie.

 

Even in the situations you described...there is a point where the CHOICE was made. In the bar, you approached a woman (but you're married...violating a boundary). You accepted her number (violating another boundary). You call her later (violating yet another boundary). You decide to meet at her place (yet another)...and on.

 

All DECISIONS you intentionally made in pursuit of the affair. There were no 'accidents'.

 

In your second scenario, you described a situation with a co-worker. It started out innocently...but...you made a choice to begin sharing intimate details of your marriage with her. First boundary violation. You continued to share these details, and this almost undoubtedly led to the beginnings of an emotional affair because you didn't have good boundaries on how to limit your interactions with opposite sex friends. Then, the night you worked late together, it happened. You touched her hand. AND THEN...you leaned in for the kiss. That kiss didn't "just happen'. You CHOSE to lean in and kiss her. It was a DECISION, not an accident. You decided to brush it off...act like it didn't happen. But, then later...you CHOSE to go to her place for lunch...'knowing what would happen'.

 

See...even in your own examples, these aren't mistakes. Your choices were your own to make. In those examples, your wife could have have well been just as unhappy as you were, being in that same unhappy marriage. She could have been facing very similar choices...but came to completely different decisions than you.

 

What was the factor that made her choose differently than you? That is the real point of confusion for us all.

[Reggie]

I agree with OWl. Realtive to the woman in the bar situation, she was blidsided , as she did not know you were married. Of course, once she found out, she continued the relationship.

But, James, your initial post states that "most " OW and OM do not choose a married affair partner. I don't think the situation you described with the woman in the bar represents "most" situations. I think more commonly, both parties are fully aware of the others status. I think your statement that "most" folks do not choose married people as affair partners is inaccurate.

[Owl]

I don't completely agree with you on that last, Reggie.

 

There are a large number of OW/OM that ARE blindsided by the knowledge that the person they've been seeing is married.

 

What the greater percentage is...those who went into it knowing the MP was married vs those who found out after having started a relationship...is a guess.

 

But at the end of the day...it's what you do when you HAVE that knowledge that matters.

[Reggie]

I'm sure it happens, OWl. But, think about all the stories you've read here and on other websites. Seems that most commonly the folks are acquainted and know of each others' situation. I think it is rare that the OW or OM is blindsided. I don't think Jame's assertion that "most" get involved without prior knowledge would be close to accurate.

[Owl]

That's the thing, Reggie. I am thinking about all the stories I've read here, and on other sites as well.

 

It's probably more common than you think it is. It's a pretty common theme on a lot of the OW threads. Sometimes the affair is started knowingly, and sometimes they don't find out about the marriage until after they've started a relationship.

 

But again...it doesn't matter.

 

What matters is what the OW/OM does when they DO find out the truth.

[JamesM]

 

You (and many others) feel that most affairs are caused by bad marriages.

 

Reggie (and many others) feel that most affairs are an active choice to cheat.

 

 

As I'm sure you already well know, I tend to believe more along the lines of Reggie.

 

Even in the situations you described...there is a point where the CHOICE was made.

What was the factor that made her choose differently than you? That is the real point of confusion for us all.

 

Owl, I have read many of your posts and while sometimes I disagree, you have excellent points.

 

Personally, I don't think affairs are caused by JUST bad marriages. It also involves a choice as you mentioned. The part that separates many of us is that there are many who want to place the blame on the cheater and make the BS completely innocent. This is where I disagree with some. I have no doubt that being a BS can tilt one's opinion towards more responsibility placed on the cheater, but one cannot deny that it takes two to make a marriage good...or bad. (And yes, I can exclude mental illnesses).

 

IMO if the marriage were good, then when the opportunity was offered the desire would not be there. However, when the marriage is bad, then when the opportunity is offered, the desire is there. As you said and you are correct, it STILL takes a conscious choice by the cheater to decide to act on that desire. But as an analogy again, offer a steak to a dog who is hungry and he is likely to take it. Offer it to a dog that is full, and he may ignore it.

 

Having been in the marriage that was bad, it is difficult NOT to make the choice when the desire is strong because hurting the spouse does not seem as "evil" as it does when the marriage is good. Then it takes a conscious commitment to say that these possible moments of pleasure will ruin MY life...not just my spouse's life.

 

As for why some people choose an affair and others don't, I think other factors come into play such as children, jobs, public humiliation, and more. For me, if the affair only hurt my wife and didn't affect MY marriage and MY children and MY life, then when I am angry at her the choice would not be difficult. But when it affects me, then I know that an affair would not bring pleasure.

 

There are a large number of OW/OM that ARE blindsided by the knowledge that the person they've been seeing is married.

 

What the greater percentage is...those who went into it knowing the MP was married vs those who found out after having started a relationship...is a guess.

 

But at the end of the day...it's what you do when you HAVE that knowledge that matters.

 

Excellent point. I agree that based on stories here and others IRL, many people get into affairs not knowing the marital status of the other. Yet there is no question that many situations such as I described in the workplace involve complete knowledge of the others status. In those cases, many justify the affair by saying that "the marriage is over anyhow...it just hasn't been put on paper."

 

And not to place the responsibility only on the OW or OM, but when the MM or MW is in a bad marriage and the OW/OM knows it yet continues to fuel the fire for an affair, then one cannot say that either is a victim of the other

 

Unfortunately, what happens in an affair is that the addiction to the FEELINGS created by the affair become more important than the person in the affair.

 

Good points, Owl.

[Reggie]

Owl raises another good point, James, and that is the many times the BS is equally or more dissatisfied in the marriage, yet does not cross the line. The desire maybe there , but ther must be some greater stength of character or conviction that stops the non-cheater from crossing the line.

Clearly a BS can ba responsible for problems in a marriage just like the WS. But, the difference in the allegiance to one's vows , regardless of dissatisfaction , says something about both parties character.

I've read the stories of folks being blindsided, as well. My impression is that the majority of the scenarios I've read are situations where the folks are acquainted and well aware of the marital staus of one another. Can't reconcile what I've read with the claim that "most" folks re unaware.

Nor do I feel that a sexual relationship between married partners that are not cheating exposes each spouse to the same type of risk that a person choosing to have sex in non-exclusive dating situations faces.

James, I am not saying every OM or OW is typhoid Mary. Nevertheless, a cheating spouse does increase the risk that his or her BS will be exposed to health risks as compared to a situation where the spouses are not having sex outside the marriage. The stats on the prevalence of STD's are much higher than you seem to think and the risk is significant.

[JamesM]

Owl raises another good point, James, and that is the many times the BS is equally or more dissatisfied in the marriage, yet does not cross the line. The desire maybe there , but ther must be some greater stength of character or conviction that stops the non-cheater from crossing the line.

 

Agreed as stated before. A conscious choice is made yet EVERY one of us could make that same choice. There is nothing special about a non-cheater versus a cheater. The BS may also not see the marriage as bad. For instance, while I consider the marriage sexless, my wife may not. So when offered an affair, she has no problem turning down the offer. Yet if she felt that there was no emotional connection with me and this was as important to her as sex was to me, then she may easily find herself in an EA.

 

Clearly a BS can ba responsible for problems in a marriage just like the WS. But, the difference in the allegiance to one's vows , regardless of dissatisfaction , says something about both parties character.

 

Or it says something about how the person views the marriage. Or it says something about the commitment one has versus the other. For some reason, you like to tag character flaws with cheaters, and I do not think it is that easy to stereotype. Again, the BS may simply not see the marriage as being in trouble.

 

I know that my wife does not view our lack of sex as a big problem. And when she does think of it, she thinks of it in terms regarding how I view it as a problem. Her needs are being fulfilled...why should she cheat?

 

James, I am not saying every OM or OW is typhoid Mary. Nevertheless, a cheating spouse does increase the risk that his or her BS will be exposed to health risks as compared to a situation where the spouses are not having sex outside the marriage.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with this. That is like saying that when I drive a car, I have a greater likelihood of being in an accident than when I do not drive a car. Having sex with one person no matter in marriage or not, will always decrease the risk. Having NO sex is even less risky.

 

The stats on the prevalence of STD's are much higher than you seem to think and the risk is significant.

 

Actually, they are not higher than I think. I have been looking at some links regarding that. The risk are greater than when one is monogamous or when one abstains from sex....no argument there. However, the risks of catching an STD are very slim when comparing an affair with one person besides the marriage partner with a serial cheater who visits prostitutes.

[herenow]

JamesM brings up two points that I have issues with.

 

1 - Justification for an affair. IMO, there is no justification. There are many people in this world who deal with their marriage problems and either fix them or realize that they are no longer happy in the marriage and leave. JamesM continually uses the example of a sexless marriage to justify an affair. Again, IMO, if husband and wife are not compatible on an issue that would cause one of them to want to be with someone else, it's time to deal with that issue or move on.

 

2 - Affairs happen in bad marriages. Maybe true in some situations, but not all. Affairs, IMO, happen because that is how the cheater chooses to deal with his own issues. To say that the BS or the marriage is the cause shows a complete lack of ability for the cheater to take responsibility for his or her own actions.

 

JamesM is placing blame partially on others for the choice of the cheaters. I would assume that a MM involved in an affair is an adult. We teach children to be honest and do the right thing, but these "adults" are unable to set that example. If someone is going to cheat at least they can be mature enough to accept that he or she is the only one responsible for that action. Anything short is pure justification and plain wrong. IMO.

[JamesM]

JamesM brings up two points that I Have issues with.

 

That is okay.

 

JamesM continually uses the example of a sexless marriage to justify an affair. Again, IMO, if husband and wife are not compatible on an issue that would cause one of them to want to be with someone else, it's time to deal with that issue or move on.

 

No, James doesn't say that this JUSTIFIES an affair (which would mean that it makes an affair okay). As I have said repeatedly and repeatedly, it gives a REASON for the affair (as in a rational ground or motive).

 

It is easy to see why marriages should end, but when one is in one it is not so objective.

 

2 - Affairs happen in bad marriages. Maybe true in some situations, but not all. Affairs, IMO, happen because that is how the cheater chooses to deal with his own issues. To say that the BS or the marriage is the cause shows a complete lack of ability for the cheater to take responsibility for his or her own actions.

 

James never said that affairs happen in ALL bad marriages. And James never said that the BS is the ONLY cause. James simply said that he or she is PART of the cause. Again as stated in one of my last posts, the cheater DOES make a choice.

 

JamesM is placing blame partially on others for the choice of the cheaters.

 

That is correct. When we say to our spouse that sex is only allowed with us (marriage vow) and then refuse them sex, then it is obvious to any rational being that we are part of the reason our spouse feels inclined to choose an affair.

 

I would assume that a MM involved in an affair is an adult. We teach children to be honest and do the right thing, but these "adults" are unable to set that example.

 

We tell children not to smoke. We tell children not to get pregnant before marriage. We tell children all kinds of things that adults cannot abide by every day all of the time. This in no way invalidates what we teach.

 

We also tell adults to be monogamous in marriage. We tell them marriage is forever.

 

AND we tell our spouse that we will remain faithful to them which says that we will have sex with them only. So when we decide to NOT have sex with them or have sex with some one else, we have both broken that vow.

 

The difference is that forced celibacy is accepted by society while adultery is not.

 

If someone is going to cheat at least they can be mature enough to accept that he or she is the only one responsible for that action. Anything short is pure justification and plain wrong. IMO.

 

Your opinion is wrong...IMO.

 

Let's say I slap you across the face. You get mad at me and slap me back. How can you say I am in any part responsible for your action based on your logic? My reasoning says I am responsible in that I CAUSED you to be faced with a choice, YOU are responsible for the choice you made. If I had never hit you, then I doubt you would even have thought of hitting me.

 

So in marriage. We do things that causes our spouse to be faced with situations and choices that they otherwise would not have needed to face.

 

For many...even most people faced with the choice of an affair...who are in satisfactory marriages, the idea of an affair is totally undesirable. Yet when these same people are lacking something that is important to them in their marriage and they face a situation that can fulfill that void, may find themselves weakened enough to choose that which they know is wrong.

[JamesM]

Now in a case of one spouse discovering the other cheating and then in turn THEY go out and cheat, this analogy might apply, but ONLY then.

 

Actually, another situation would make this analogy apply as well.

 

My wife says: "I have decided that we will be celibate."

 

ME: "But you stated a vow that we would only have sex with each other and then this means you are forcing me to no longer have sex."

 

Her: "Tough."

 

Cause: Forced celibacy.

 

Choice: How will I respond?

[Reggie]

Not everyone faced withe dissatisfaction wil cheat, James. There is a difference between folks that adhere to their promises even under pressure and those that fold. I'm not saying that folks cannot change and gain integrity etc.

If you are faced iwth the prospects of a sexless marriage, the right thing to do is be honest. Tell your spouse it is a huge issue(it would be for me) and that you need to address it. If that does not work and she is unwilling, wy compromise your integrity by lying. Get a divorce. No one would fault you if you tried to fix it and she was unwilling.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Get a divorce

 

Now there's a novel idea!

[Reggie]

Actually, another situation would make this analogy apply as well.

 

My wife says: "I have decided that we will be celibate."

 

ME: "But you stated a vow that we would only have sex with each other and then this means you are forcing me to no longer have sex."

 

Her: "Tough."

 

Cause: Forced celibacy.

 

Choice: How will I respond?

 

Yes, but it is not forced celibacy. It is forced if you elect to stay in the marriage. Your choice, at that point and you would be well within your rights to opt out. She unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement. She is wrong to do that , just as you would be wrong to unilaterally change the agreement on exclusivity. Why are folks so afraid of divorcing vs cheating. The aftermath of cheating seems much worse to me.

[JamesM]

Not everyone faced withe dissatisfaction wil cheat, James.

 

And I have never said they all would.

 

There is a difference between folks that adhere to their promises even under pressure and those that fold. I'm not saying that folks cannot change and gain integrity etc.

 

Agree.

 

If you are faced iwth the prospects of a sexless marriage, the right thing to do is be honest. Tell your spouse it is a huge issue(it would be for me) and that you need to address it. If that does not work and she is unwilling, wy compromise your integrity by lying. Get a divorce. No one would fault you if you tried to fix it and she was unwilling.

 

Uh, actually they WOULD.

 

How many people would nod their head with agreement when I said that the reason for our divorce is her lack of interest in sex? Just view the threads here about sexless marriages. The first person attacked is the one who feels it is sexless...especially if that person is a man.

 

Yet when someone cheats, the first thing is...get a divorce.

 

Telling your children that "we divorced because daddy couldn't keep his pants zipped" is understandable and unselfish. Telling your children that "we divorced because mommy won't let daddy in HER pants" is laughable at best.

 

Sorry. Fact is most everyone would fault the man who divorced due to forced celibacy, yet very few would fault the person who did not try to fix his or her marriage after adultery.

[JamesM]

Yes, but it is not forced celibacy. It is forced if you elect to stay in the marriage. Your choice, at that point and you would be well within your rights to opt out. She unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement. She is wrong to do that , just as you would be wrong to unilaterally change the agreement on exclusivity. Why are folks so afraid of divorcing vs cheating. The aftermath of cheating seems much worse to me.

 

Yes, it IS forced celibacy.

 

The ramifications of divorce are many. And to divorce because of a sexless marriage...well, read my last post.

[jj33]

Telling your children that "we divorced because daddy couldn't keep his pants zipped" is understandable and unselfish.

 

Telling your children that "we divorced because mommy won't let daddy in HER pants" is laughable at best.

 

Sorry. Fact is most everyone would fault the man who divorced due to forced celibacy, yet very few would fault the person who did not try to fix his or her marriage after adultery.

 

 

Well said. And story after story bears that out. Both real life and stereotypes (oh men just want it all the time, women lose interest after they are married) play out the fact that people are expected to put up with sexless marriages.

 

That may be fine for some but for many it is an untenable situation.

[JamesM]

Divorce. Get it?

 

Did you read anything I posted? If it were that simple.

 

For me, there are higher priorities than no sex, but for many men this may not be the case.

[Reggie]

Yes, it IS forced celibacy.

 

The ramifications of divorce are many. And to divorce because of a sexless marriage...well, read my last post.

 

This is not true. Not many would criticize you for getting a divorce if your spouse witheld sex for non-medical reasons. Who cares if some do, anyway. You cannot lead your life afraid of what others think.

Divorce is very simple. Cheating causes way more damage and complicates one's life way more.

[Reggie]

Did you read anything I posted? If it were that simple.

 

For me, there are higher priorities than no sex, but for many men this may not be the case.

 

 

We must live in very different worlds. I cannot imagine someone whose opinion I respected criticizing someone getting out from a marriage where sex was routinely witheld. I'd pay no attention to someone that was critical of this decision.

[JamesM]

Divorce is very simple. Cheating causes way more damage and complicates one's life way more.

 

Studies disagree with this statement. While I understand that you are going through alot of pain as a result of adultery, those who go through divorce experience much emotional and physical pain, too. It ranks as one of the highest stress causes in a person's life.

 

See here

 

http://www.troubledwith.com/Relationships/A000000830.cfm?topic=relationships%3A%20divorce

 

Life expectancies for divorced men and women are significantly lower than for married people (who have the longest life expectancies).

 

A recent study found those who were unhappy but stay married were more likely to be happy five years later than those who divorced.

 

Men and women both suffer a decline in mental health following divorce, but researchers have found that women are more greatly affected. Some of the mental health indicators affected by divorce include depression, hostility, self-acceptance, personal growth and positive relations with others.

[JamesM]

We must live in very different worlds. I cannot imagine someone whose opinion I respected criticizing someone getting out from a marriage where sex was routinely witheld. I'd pay no attention to someone that was critical of this decision.

 

Because for me I know that marriage has its ups and downs. Marriage is not sexless for me personally now. While it does need improvement it has been worse in the past. And a short time ago, it was alot better.

 

And when I say sex is not my highest priority, I mean it. Besides, divorce is not an option. And no, affairs aren't either. Running from troubles does not solve them.

[Reggie]

Studies disagree with this statement. While I understand that you are going through alot of pain as a result of adultery, those who go through divorce experience much emotional and physical pain, too. It ranks as one of the highest stress causes in a person's life.

 

See here

 

http://www.troubledwith.com/Relationships/A000000830.cfm?topic=relationships%3A%20divorce

 

Life expectancies for divorced men and women are significantly lower than for married people (who have the longest life expectancies).

 

A recent study found those who were unhappy but stay married were more likely to be happy five years later than those who divorced.

 

Men and women both suffer a decline in mental health following divorce, but researchers have found that women are more greatly affected. Some of the mental health indicators affected by divorce include depression, hostility, self-acceptance, personal growth and positive relations with others.

Yeah, it does involve some pain, James. Still. it is straightforward, thus simple.

I can tell you that it is not as painful as bing cheated on, having expierienced both.

the depression etc is usually temporaty. You are down for a while but bounce back. Living longer ain't all it's cracked up to be. We are still here for a mere blink.

I've been through a fair amount of tough stuff, particualrly involving the health of one of my kids. So, this was not that bad.

[CAMAYPARK]

Actually, another situation would make this analogy apply as well.

 

My wife says: "I have decided that we will be celibate."

 

ME: "But you stated a vow that we would only have sex with each other and then this means you are forcing me to no longer have sex."

 

Her: "Tough."

 

Cause: Forced celibacy.

 

Choice: How will I respond?

 

Another senario.

 

MM: walks into her bedroom...

W: not tonight, maybe next week

or

MW: walks into her bedroom........ and they did it but she lies there like a 2'4.

Next week

MW: walks into her bedroom and..

W: she's lying there naked and says, lets get this over with:laugh:

MW:do you know when was the last time?

W: no idea

MW: 2years ago

W: didn't realise that sex is that important to you:laugh:

 

And of course, things gets better for the next few months and then W/BW reverts back.

 

Alas its difficult to change