What if your MM or MW had other Affairs?

[JamesM]

 

The cheater chooses to cheat because he/she is selfish.

 

Then one who chooses not to have an affair does so because he is unselfish?

 

I think not.

 

Personally, I choose not to have an affair because I do not want to lose my children and my family. I do not want to lose my safe and stable home life. I do not want to upset my life. I do not want to go through the pain of discovery and loss of respect of my wife. I do not want to lose the love of my wife.

 

It is about me.

[herenow]

Reason and justification are not necessarily equal.

 

I may have a rational reason for why I do something, but this in now way makes my choice right (or justifiable).

 

Giving reasons for why someone does something does not mean this condones that behavior.

 

OK, then go ahead and change any post where I used the word justification to say reason instead and it still remains the same. When there are reasonable choices that the MM has as an alternative to an affair, there is no reason, other than his own choice, for him to lie and cheat on his wife.

 

No marriage is perfect and we all have ups and downs. Both spouses are responsible for the heath of a marriage, but when one chooses to have an affair, that choice cannot in any way be blamed on the betrayed. Even if he or she withholds sex. If the MM tells his wife that he is going out to have sex because she won't, then she isn't a BW is she? Just saying he is unhappy doesn't give him the "reason" to do what he wants behind her back.

[herenow]

I choose to drive carefully on icy roads.

 

The reason why I do so is because I might slide and have an accident.

 

Choice is separate from reasons or motivation.

 

Do you lie about driving careful on an icy road? Is your careful driving going to cause pain to others if they find out?

[Holding-On]

So then what you're saying is the choice to have an affair v. divorce is based on the cheater's selfishness. Gotcha!

 

Meh

No - for generally good moral people who slip on the adultery staircase - I think James is describing a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

 

Everyone says well why didn't they just divorce?

 

I'd say it wasn't clear to one or the other that it was that bad or that it could be or even should be better (cue OWoman's situation here)

 

Most people that cohabitate (including roommates) there are areas of friction. Usually spouses are living with the problems of their relationship. Again and again they visit the same problems. From what I read this is common. Most marriages have at least one area that is never going to be resolved just by being different people with different needs and tastes.

 

So like James situation he goes around and around with his wife on the difference in their sex drives. Since it is unlikely that both people in a long term marriage are always going to have the same sex drive, this is a very common problem and if James was to mention it to anyone they would advise that he simply give it time because these things wax and wane.

 

The good intention is that you will stay with your partner and continue to try and work on this/these issues because you do love your spouse and you do want it to work out. You are actually pretty miserable but you are very accustomed to feeling this way so you stay.

 

When someone comes around for whom there is great attraction a WS may be so used to feeling unsexy/loveable that he/she does not cue to the fact that another person might like them like that.

 

I think someone wisely said something like "if your MM says anything you making them feel alive - run" because it is a chemical high. It is like not having eaten much and then being able to get a full meal. Or having had very little sleep and here is an lovely soft bed but you must keep your eyes open.

 

At some point there comes a choice of course but if you are not paying attention when is it?

If you like your co-worker and you tell stories and jokes and so forth that can hardly be bad. Should you be stony and nasty?

 

See I find the EA line a bit of BS truthfully. Yes, IMO you CAN slip into EA without really realizing it. Most men do not consider EA to be an affair simply nice attention from an nice person. This would be one of those grey areas NOT talked about before marriage. An affair, to most men I have met, would be a PA.

 

So the good intention is to stay faithful to your wife as the MM understood his vows (no PA) but of course with an EA in full bloom it is not too surprising that it becomes a PA at some point (yes a choice)

 

 

Some WS/MM will immediately tell their spouses (yes another choice). Some will have the good intention of "I messed up big time, I'm never going to do that again. It would hurt my wife to tell her. I'm simply going to stay away from Susie and true to my wife" and they try to.

 

If you go to TOW you can read numerous stories of MM going no contact on their OW often but always coming back. If you go to SI you can read stories from the BS "Jeez it is like they are addicted" when the WS/OW fall off the wagon again and again.

 

We are human and we err. We are human and we falter. I think that James is asking for compassion and understanding of human nature. I do understand that there are WS who will cheat without remorse but he does not seem to be speaking of those cases.

[JamesM]

OK, then go ahead and change any post where I used the word justification to say reason instead and it still remains the same. When there are reasonable choices that the MM has as an alternative to an affair, there is no reason, other than his own choice, for him to lie and cheat on his wife.

 

I agree. This does not mean that the reason is invalid. For instance, if my sex life is minimal (I know...same example again ), this is my reason or for what I choose. So, I am faced with a desirable woman for an affair or marriage counseling with my wife or joining Loveshack as a way to improve my marriage.

 

For any of the choices, my reason is (and was) the same. How I choose is determined by my own free will. So for me three years and one month ago, I made a choice. Research why my marriage is sexless and see if I can fix it. And when faced a month earlier with the possibility of an affair, I did not choose to go down the road of immediate satisfaction, but instead chose the uncertain road of marital improvement.

 

The outcomes are all different for each choice. The rewards are completely different. However, the reason for my need to make a choice is the same...a sexless marriage.

 

No marriage is perfect and we all have ups and downs. Both spouses are responsible for the heath of a marriage, but when one chooses to have an affair, that choice cannot in any way be blamed on the betrayed. Even if he or she withholds sex. If the MM tells his wife that he is going out to have sex because she won't, then she isn't a BW is she? Just saying he is unhappy doesn't give him the "reason" to do what he wants behind her back.

 

Both are responsible for the health of the marriage and both are responsible for the problems in the marriage. When one chooses to have an affair that choice sits on his shoulders, but the environment of the marriage which was also created by the wife, is the responsibility of both.

 

If the wife says she no longer will have sex, then can she take no responsibility for the consequences of such a selfish decision?

 

I think not.

[JamesM]

 

For any of the choices, my reason is (and was) the same. How I choose is determined by my own free will. So for me three years and one month ago, I made a choice. Research why my marriage is sexless and see if I can fix it. And when faced a month earlier with the possibility of an affair, I did not choose to go down the road of immediate satisfaction, but instead chose the uncertain road of marital improvement.

 

Both are responsible for the health of the marriage and both are responsible for the problems in the marriage. When one chooses to have an affair that choice sits on his shoulders, but the environment of the marriage which was also created by the wife, is the responsibility of both.

 

If the wife says she no longer will have sex, then can she take no responsibility for the consequences of such a selfish decision?

 

I think not.

 

Again, you are mixing apples and oranges. We are in no way saying the BS isn’t at least partially responsible for the cheater’s WANT for something other than the status quo. HOWEVER, the choice to cheat v. divorce rests SOLELY on the WS.

 

You can talk circles around it all you want, but it is what it is.

 

Reread the portions highlighted. I do say that the responsibility for the choice is upon him or her who made the choice.

 

And unfortunately while you say differently, not everyone here thinks the BS is anyway responsible for creating the desire for an affair.

 

It seems that many think the BS can do what he or she desires in the marriage and if the choice for an affair is made the WS, then this was in no way influenced by the actions of the BS.

 

That is why this thread has been going on so long.

[Owl]

Reread the portions highlighted. I do say that the responsibility for the choice is upon him or her who made the choice.

 

And unfortunately while you say differently, not everyone here thinks the BS is anyway responsible for creating the desire for an affair.

 

It seems that many think the BS can do what he or she desires in the marriage and if the choice for an affair is made the WS, then this was in no way influenced by the actions of the BS.

 

That is why this thread has been going on so long.

 

Good point, and worth acknowledging.

 

Just as the discussion of "duped OW/OM vs. willing OW/OM"...it happens both ways.

 

My case is a good example of one side:

 

My wife broke her ankle, lost her job as a result, and ended up suffering with depression as a result. She refused to seek treatment for the depression, no matter how much the whole family tried to get help.

 

She became addicted to online gaming. Stopped interacting with the family, stopped doing housework, etc...basically withdrew more and more from us.

 

Ultimately she began an online emotional affair with someone as a result.

 

No matter what I did or didn't do...nothing helped.

 

The state of the marriage was not my fault...I was doing everything I possibly could to change the situation.

 

The choice to withdraw from the family, and the chioce to start an EA with someone...equally not my fault.

 

And once the EA was dissolved, it became a wake up call for her. She sought treatment for depression, began to re-engage with the family and with me, etc...

 

So...in my case...I didn't contribute to the state of the marriage...didn't contribute to her choice to cheat either.

 

Now...on the other side of the coin...I have seen any number of posters that came here claiming that their spouses choice to cheat was a result of their neglect/emotional distance/etc... In those cases, the BS felt that they were part of the problem.

 

This is another one of those things where you can't really say where the reality lies for the majority.

[wildsoul]

If the wife says she no longer will have sex, then can she take no responsibility for the consequences of such a selfish decision?

 

I think not.

It's interesting to me how much attention everyone is putting on the cheating MM and not the W. No one has questioned why she has lost interest in sex. She may not feel like she chose to lose her desire, as so many things can cause that, but she does have a choice in how she handles it.

 

In my marriage, the friendship and admiration I had for my (now x) H was the main connection. I never had a case of the swoons for him. Sex was loving and adequate in the beginning. I thought it would get better. Instead what happened was that as the newness wore off and the family conflicts reared their heads, my desire faded to zero. Although I still loved him as a friend and roommate, I began feeling sexually repulsed by him and would either stop mid-way or avoid it altogether.

 

He became enormously frustrated and angry over the lack of sex.

 

I was also frustrated because I didn't know how to fix it. I kept asserting that our problem was a lack of romance/time/fun. He kept asserting that he didn't want to be romantic outside the bedroom because I didn't have sex with him. It was a horrible stalemate!

 

I'm basically monogamous, so it didn't occur to me to cheat. Same with him. Yet after nearly a year of no sex, I started to wonder what would happen if he did. As devastating as it sounded, part of me honestly felt that if he did, I could understand it.

 

Meanwhile, I took it upon myself to go into IC with a sex therapist and MC with a family therapist. I also had my hormones checked and that wasn't the problem. It was all psychological, but very very stuck. I couldn't make myself do it with him. The sex therapist validated that I had a typical reaction of losing desire because of the other problems in our M. My H didn't want to really work with me on it. He just wanted me to have sex without actually fixing things between us.

 

What I'm saying in a long way is this. I was that W who lost desire for sex, but rather than be in denial about it, I tried to fix it. I took responsibility.

 

Oh, and ultimately neither one of us cheated, but I did decide to D him. It didn't seem fair for me to make him suffer a sexless M, and I also wanted to regain my sexuality (and needed someone who was more sexually compatible with me.)

 

Both parties have choices to seek therapy and problem resolution before cheating. The sexually disinterested W knows it's not fair to hide behind the marriage vows of better/worse without proactively trying to fix her loss of desire.

[herenow]

 

If the wife says she no longer will have sex, then can she take no responsibility for the consequences of such a selfish decision?

 

I think not.

 

So, let's say I have a job and I didn't get the bonus I was promised or the raise I expected to get, or my hours were cut. I go out and steal something I want since I can't buy it because my boss won't pay me enough.

 

I'm happy enough at my job, but it doesn't pay me enough to get the things that make me feel good, so I steal them. I asked my boss for a raise once and he (or she) only gave me a small raise, but not what I thought I would get. I don't want to quit and look for another job because that would be too hard and I don't want to change anything else or have to deal with my boss again, so I just steal what I want and I feel I have a good reason.

 

Does that make my boss responsible in part for the fact that I steal? After all, my boss didn't give me what I though I would get or what I think I deserve.

[herenow]

Of COURSE your boss is responsible, if we go by the rationalization techniques that have been present in this thread.

 

All kidding aside, that is a good analogy. A M partner feels they DESERVE sex (or whatever it is they feel they're missing) in thair marriage, but they aren't getting enough. Same as your boss is not giving you what you feel you DESERVE in your job.

 

It's like a child who is caught doing something wrong saying "It's not my fault, she made me do it". Grow up and take full responsibility for your actions. Reason, motive, justification, it all the same. Trying to place blame on others for their own choice.

 

How can someone be at all responsible for something they don't even know is happening?

[wildsoul]

So, let's say I have a job and I didn't get the bonus I was promised or the raise I expected to get, or my hours were cut. I go out and steal something I want since I can't buy it because my boss won't pay me enough.

 

I'm happy enough at my job, but it doesn't pay me enough to get the things that make me feel good, so I steal them. I asked my boss for a raise once and he (or she) only gave me a small raise, but not what I thought I would get. I don't want to quit and look for another job because that would be too hard and I don't want to change anything else or have to deal with my boss again, so I just steal what I want and I feel I have a good reason.

 

Does that make my boss responsible in part for the fact that I steal? After all, my boss didn't give me what I though I would get or what I think I deserve.

Good analogy, but I don't you have it paralleling A's quite right. A better match would be if your story went like this:

 

Not getting the promised raises or bonuses, the employee speaks up but the boss says, "Sorry, that's just the way it is." The employee could find another job, but overall, they're comfortable enough to stay even though they aren't really happy there anymore.

 

The employee is no longer motivated and starts spending hours of their day dispensing free advice on LoveShack. At least the people at LS feel some appreciation! The employee does just the bare minimum to keep from getting fired, hoping that someday their boss will make good on their promises.

 

And YES, I think bosses who don't make efforts to keep people motivated have some responsibility for the crappy work of employees! It's a 2-way street. Sure, some employees should be fired without question. But most cases of underperformance are due to complacency and lack of involvement from managment.

[herenow]

Good analogy, but I don't you have it paralleling A's quite right. A better match would be if your story went like this:

 

Not getting the promised raises or bonuses, the employee speaks up but the boss says, "Sorry, that's just the way it is." The employee could find another job, but overall, they're comfortable enough to stay even though they aren't really happy there anymore.

 

The employee is no longer motivated and starts spending hours of their day dispensing free advice on LoveShack. At least the people at LS feel some appreciation! The employee does just the bare minimum to keep from getting fired, hoping that someday their boss will make good on their promises.

 

And YES, I think bosses who don't make efforts to keep people motivated have some responsibility for the crappy work of employees! It's a 2-way street. Sure, some employees should be fired without question. But most cases of underperformance are due to complacency and lack of involvement from managment.

 

That would only work if the employee was talking to a competitor on LS and spending company time doing work for the other company (and getting paid by the other company) while they are supposed to be working for their boss. They should quit and go work for the other company.

 

And in an affair, we are not talking about being a crappy spouse, we are talking about going to get sex from another person behind the back of the BS. Yes, both partners are responsible for problems in the marriage. Only one is responsible for the affair.

[Reggie]

Then one who chooses not to have an affair does so because he is unselfish?

 

I think not.

 

Personally, I choose not to have an affair because I do not want to lose my children and my family. I do not want to lose my safe and stable home life. I do not want to upset my life. I do not want to go through the pain of discovery and loss of respect of my wife. I do not want to lose the love of my wife.

 

It is about me.

Presumably, James, you are also factoring the effects on your wife and kids, as well. That ain't selfish. Self interest and consideration of others are not mutually exclusive. In fact , in something like this, they are intertwined.

[OWoman]

It was at the link I provided.

 

Sorry I missed that but thanks for pointing it out. I went to check the article, and the "study" referred to is a book by Maggie Gallagher and Linda Waite entitled "the case for marriage: why married people are happier, healthier and better off financially". I've not read the book, but I did google the authors, one of whom is a Bush apologist for marriage, a fierce opponent of gay marriage and a "social conservative" opposed to pornography, among other things. (She also failed to disclose government money she was giving when testifying before congress, apparently, so is a "controversial" figure for other reasons.) I find it hard to accept findings of a "study" when, at the outset, the authors are so biased and invested in a particular outcome that it's highly likely their methodology would be skewed and the objectivity of their "study" questionable.

 

So thanks James, but I'll take those findings with a pinch of salt until I can find some more rigorous study which either backs them up or refutes them

[JamesM]

I find it hard to accept findings of a "study" when, at the outset, the authors are so biased and invested in a particular outcome that it's highly likely their methodology would be skewed and the objectivity of their "study" questionable.

 

So thanks James, but I'll take those findings with a pinch of salt until I can find some more rigorous study which either backs them up or refutes them

 

I understand. I did not check who did the study. However,based on that logic, most studies are invalidated because someone who is behind the studies has an opinion regarding what they think the outcome should be.

 

Interestingly enough, most who have disagreed with me on this thread regarding who has the responsibility for the affair has been with...mostly individuals who have been betrayed by a spouse who had an affair. The most vehement posts indicate how much pain was caused by such a betrayal, and I can understand how it affects the responses.

 

Should I dismiss all opinions with such obvious bias and take them with a pinch of salt? OR do they have something worth listening to?

 

I knew when this discussion started how it would swing because I knew what each person's background was. It is a rare BS on LS who will say that they helped create a situation which contributed to the affair. And maybe none here did contribute to the situation. Such statistics ARE possible.

 

Could it be that when someone has been betrayed that they find it hard to accept that they themselves might have helped create such a situation? Would I have a different opinion if my wife cheated on me?

 

I don't know.

 

I know this and it cannot be different. A good marriage is created by two people working hard. A bad marriage is "created" by two people who do not work at keeping it good. The consequences of a bad marriage are affairs, divorce, abuse, etc.

 

Is one person at fault when it is good or when it is bad? Can one person be responsible for a good marriage? Can one person be responsible for a bad marriage?

 

Anything is possible, so yes.

 

Is that the norm?

 

I doubt it.

[Reggie]

Actually, James , it is very possible for one person, BS or Ws to be the majority player in making a marriage bad. Most of the "experts" I've read on infidelity(and it is a ****load) ,say they have found that in most cases, it is the WS who was neglecting the marriage more pre-A. Makes sense when you consider the selfishness that must be within a person willing to betray his or her spouse and children.

[Mio]

I understand. I did not check who did the study. However,based on that logic, most studies are invalidated because someone who is behind the studies has an opinion regarding what they think the outcome should be.

 

I have to agree with OWoman about this particular study. In another net incarnation, I used to scrutinise anti-depressant studies and was constantly shocked at the bias in the way results were reported. This was frequently a result of undisclosed interests who had funded the studies. The Bush Administration in particular has been corrosive to scientific integrity.

 

 

Interestingly enough, most who have disagreed with me on this thread regarding who has the responsibility for the affair has been with...mostly individuals who have been betrayed by a spouse who had an affair. The most vehement posts indicate how much pain was caused by such a betrayal, and I can understand how it affects the responses.

 

I've noticed this in general on LS. They have a valid viewpoint of course like everyone else, but I question their place on the OM/W forum.

[OWoman]

I understand. I did not check who did the study. However,based on that logic, most studies are invalidated because someone who is behind the studies has an opinion regarding what they think the outcome should be.

 

OK Perhaps I shoudl come clean here and admit that I used to teach Social Science research methods to undergraduate university students, so my expectations of "objectivity" are those demanded by disciplines like psychology, sociology, anthropology etc in determining the validity of research and whether or not something should be published in a journal (or accepted for a PhD thesis) rather than those of book publishers, whose criteria are "will it sell?" and "will it attract attention to the rest of our list?". So yes, some "studies" will get published in books, the same way that newspapers or magazines will publish "studies" that often consist of no more than the journo going down the pub and asking a few random (or not so random) people their opinion, for the purposes of constructing an article.

 

Properly peer-reviewed science, conducted to the stringent standards of the discipline, requires rigour in its methodology - including standards of objectivity. Yes, of course many researchers start out with a hypothesis (often an opinion, or a hunch) which the study aims to test. They then declare this upfront, as well as explaining how they aim to test this and how they aim to eradicate bias in their methods and in the interpretation of their results. They usualy include their questionnaires so that these can be scrutinised by the readership for bias, and the results challenged should this be found.

 

It's quite possible that the Gallagher study did this - I haven't read the book, where it almost certainly won't be included as this isn't what publishers of even non-fiction books require; but if it was a bona fide study and was published in a scientific journal, that would be required and included. But, on the face of it, I suspect not. I'm open to evidence to the contrary, and more than willing to change my opinion if the study was indeed conducted to the rigorous standards required by, say, the ASA.

 

Interestingly enough, most who have disagreed with me on this thread regarding who has the responsibility for the affair has been with...mostly individuals who have been betrayed by a spouse who had an affair. The most vehement posts indicate how much pain was caused by such a betrayal, and I can understand how it affects the responses.

 

However some people may wish to present their views, they remain opinion rather than fact - which is very different to the reported outcomes of a scientific study. What you findn on LS is often very evocative accounts - the sort of vignette that might be included in a qualitative research paper to illustrate a point - but they remain in the realm of anecdote rather than fact, since they were not gleaned or analysed or annotated or framed within a literature survey in the manner required for scientific study.

 

This makes them no less valid - but on their own terms: as personal experience, not as fact.

 

Should I dismiss all opinions with such obvious bias and take them with a pinch of salt? OR do they have something worth listening to?

 

As I said above - they're opinion, anecdote or personal experience, and valid as such (within the obvious constraints of anonymity - we're all taking on trust that the usernames presented here do, in fact, represent real people, and that the stories recounted here represent real experiences of these - or other - people. Sometimes trolls pop up to remind us how fragile that assumption is!). You may choose to dismiss them, refute them, or agree with them, depending on your own views, experiences or beliefs / prejudices - and your opinions then become no more or less valid than theirs.

 

(And, just to be clear - I'm not stating that strong convictions render one incapable of true science: Charles Darwin was a case in point. He was a fierce christian, yet managed to don a hat of sufficient objectivity to enable him to present findings - and an explanation for them - that ran counter to the deeply held beliefs that might otherwise have steered him to other conclusions rather than those screaming out from his observations.)

 

OK, lecture over - this won't be included in the exam, but I expect you to demonstrate knowledge and application of the principles in your research proposals which are due next week.

[jj33]

Mio I would agree - its rather evangelical.

 

They seem to think if they bombard every thread with what you are doing is immoral, there is a risk of STDs etc etc people will suddenly have an epiphany and stop having affairs.

[herenow]

I think everyone agrees that it takes both spouses to keep a marriage healthy. All agree, for the most part, that both spouses are to blame for problems in the marriage. That is what marriage is about. Working with each other in good times and bad. Communicating with and respecting each other.

 

In the case that JamesM uses, when a wife won't have sex with her H. He talks to her about it and they differ in their needs. Maybe that relationship isn't meant to last. But to say that he has a good motive to lie to his wife and have an affair, well that's just his way of blaming his own questionable actions on his wife.

 

What I am saying (and others are as well) is that the choice to have an affair can't be blamed on anyone but the person who cheats. It's how each person deals with the problems that differ. In the end if the marriage is bad the cheating doesn't solve the problem. The cheater will eventually have to deal with his problems at home, why not do it before he takes actions that will cause more pain. Why not? Because the affair is what he wants to do and he makes that choice on his own. Why? Because affairs are an easy way out and he doesn't want to do anything that would make life hard on him. Why? Because he really only cares about his needs and how he feels.

 

There are so many threads where the OW tell the BW to stop blaming anyone but the cheater. Then, when we come here and say that the cheater is to blame, it now becomes our fault. Which is it? If the BW is in part to blame for the affair, then it's only fair to say the the OW should take her share of the blame as well. Again, you can't have it both ways.

 

My first comments on this thread were about MM who love the OW. I said that if he really loves her, he will leave the marriage. It's now become all about sex. What happened to all that love the MM has for the OW?

[Reggie]

I think everyone agrees that it takes both spouses to keep a marriage healthy. All agree, for the most part, that both spouses are to blame for problems in the marriage. That is what marriage is about. Working with each other in good times and bad. Communicating with and respecting each other.

 

In the case that JamesM uses, when a wife won't have sex with her H. He talks to her about it and they differ in their needs. Maybe that relationship isn't meant to last. But to say that he has a good motive to lie to his wife and have an affair, well that's just his way of blaming his own questionable actions on his wife.

 

What I am saying (and others are as well) is that the choice to have an affair can't be blamed on anyone but the person who cheats. It's how each person deals with the problems that differ. In the end if the marriage is bad the cheating doesn't solve the problem. The cheater will eventually have to deal with his problems at home, why not do it before he takes actions that will cause more pain. Why not? Because the affair is what he wants to do and he makes that choice on his own. Why? Because affairs are an easy way out and he doesn't want to do anything that would make life hard on him. Why? Because he really only cares about his needs and how he feels.

 

There are so many threads where the OW tell the BW to stop blaming anyone but the cheater. Then, when we come here and say that the cheater is to blame, it now becomes our fault. Which is it? If the BW is in part to blame for the affair, then it's only fair to say the the OW should take her share of the blame as well. Again, you can't have it both ways.

 

My first comments on this thread were about MM who love the OW. I said that if he really loves her, he will leave the marriage. It's now become all about sex. What happened to all that love the MM has for the OW?

 

Good points. What happened to all the cheerleading "a man will move mountains for the woman he loves":sick: etc. If the guys really loves the OW, won't he move that divorce mountain?

[JamesM]

 

In the case that JamesM uses, when a wife won't have sex with her H. He talks to her about it and they differ in their needs. Maybe that relationship isn't meant to last. But to say that he has a good motive to lie to his wife and have an affair, well that's just his way of blaming his own questionable actions on his wife.

 

See here is the first problem we have. Sex is now a "need" and not an essential part of marriage. Sex is much more than simply fulfilling one person's needs. It is more accurately called lovemaking.

 

Once again, the blinders are on...you are defining the motive as good or bad. I have never said he has a good motive or a bad motive. I simply say he has an explanation or reason for his behavior and choice.

 

And if the person who withholds sex has a reason for it, then doesn't it mean that person is betraying his or her vows by not trying to resolve the issue? When I have an affair, I give my body to another woman instead of being faithful to my wife, yes? And when she refuses to be intimate and sees no reason to discover why she avoids such an essential part of marriage, then she is keeping her body from me instead of being one with me as the vows stated, yes?

 

What I am saying (and others are as well) is that the choice to have an affair can't be blamed on anyone but the person who cheats.

 

So the person who does everything else to sabotage the marriage such as withhold sex is never to blame for causing the marriage to fail?

 

Let' say that I (again with my example) have tried everything to change my marriage. She refuses to discover why she no longer enjoys making love to me. So I get a lawyer and divorce her.

 

Based on all logic here, she has no blame whatsoever for the marriage ending in divorce. It simply ended because I chose divorce. Her behavior and lack of interest in sex did not create the atmosphere or emotions that ended the marriage? If her behavior has nothing to do with me choosing an affair, then her behavior has nothing to do with me choosing MC or a divorce. I simply chose one or the other because of some inner reason...whether one wants to call it selfish or unselfish....right?

 

Cannot be. And if it is, then IMO many individuals are using as many avenues as possible to avoid seeing how he or she could have helped end the marriage whether it ended because of an affair or resulted in divorce.

 

Divorce is looked upon in this thread as honorable and affairs are comparable to murder...yet both can be the result of the same thing...failed marriage.

 

I am guessing that this will be an issue that I as a 18 yr (and shooting for 50) married man will have to be in disagreement with those whose marriages have ended due to a WS..."through no fault of their own."

[herenow]

JamesM,

 

Did you miss the first part of my post. Let me make this clear:

 

BOTH SPOUSES CONTRIBUTE TO THE HEALTH OF A MARRIAGE. BOTH SPOUSES ARE TO BLAME WHEN A MARRIAGE FAILS. THE CHEATER MAKES THE CHOICE TO CHEAT AND HE OR SHE MAKES THAT CHOICE WITHOUT THEIR SPOUSE'S KNOWLEDGE SO, THEY ARE THE ONE TO BLAME FOR THAT CHOICE. IMO!

[herenow]

Some cannot be wrong, HN.

 

JamesM can believe what he wants, that's his opinion. I just have a problem with him changing what I'm saying.

[JamesM]

Wow, James. For a guy who normally posts so eloquently,

 

Thank you.

 

That being that yes - a BS can be part or all of the trouble in a marriage, but nobody - NOBODY - forces anyone to cheat; to sneak around and lie; to display a lack of integrity; a lack of courage to deal with things in a direct manner rather than skulk in the shadows.

 

Correct. And no one makes me choose divorce or counseling. But in all choices, the circumstances that I live with can create a situation where I am faced with such choices.

 

Oh, and your last comment was quite ugly. How do you know that there are no BS's who actually have NO fault in the breakdown of their marriage? Maybe they just wound up with a sneaky, lying POS who was good at hiding that particular quality.

 

I did not say there are no BS's who actually have NO fault in the breakdown of their marriage. I know there are.

 

And there are those who choose to marry such a POS.