What if your MM or MW had other Affairs?

[Reggie]

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but I can tell by the title that it is WAAAAY off topic now.

 

How in the world did y'all start talking about scripture? And jj33 telling everyone they make her sick? And GEL gave everyone permission to make values judgments?

 

And Mio? The newbie that comes off like a Dr. Phil junkie? Don't even get me started.

 

What a hoot!!!

 

It took on a life of its own. It was a nice meander.

[NoIDidn't]

It took on a life of its own. It was a nice meander.

 

I am cracking up reading everyone explaining themselves to this new poster Mio.

 

Ever since he said he was trained to be a sociopath, I took him at his word. Or maybe he is a she? Doesn't matter. The poster basically said they were a sociopath and that they are capable of using people's feelings and thoughts against them. Creepy stuff.

 

This thread didn't meander, it veered a hard right. LOL.

[Reggie]

How do you train to be a sociopath? Where do I sign up?

[NoIDidn't]

How do you train to be a sociopath? Where do I sign up?

 

 

LOL! Apparently, in a Therapist's office. Maybe that's why the title always looks like The*Rapist to me.

[Holding-On]

I am cracking up reading everyone explaining themselves to this new poster Mio.

 

Ever since he said he was trained to be a sociopath, I took him at his word. Or maybe he is a she? Doesn't matter. The poster basically said they were a sociopath and that they are capable of using people's feelings and thoughts against them. Creepy stuff.

 

This thread didn't meander, it veered a hard right. LOL.

 

Sigh.

This is slander and maliciousness. This is jeering and mockery. And quite frankly Reggie I am saddened to see you contributing to these 5th grade antics.

Please explain to me how this quote above is not directly an personal attack against a poster.

 

I remember Mio's post very well. In essence he said his therapist warned him that having taught Mio to read other people's emotions and control his own made Mio more capable of being manipulative if he chose to. Mio did NOT say he was a sociopath as you very well know.

[Mio]

Sigh.

This is slander and maliciousness. This is jeering and mockery. And quite frankly Reggie I am saddened to see you contributing to these 5th grade antics.

Please explain to me how this quote above is not directly an personal attack against a poster.

 

I remember Mio's post very well. In essence he said his therapist warned him that having taught Mio to read other people's emotions and control his own made Mio more capable of being manipulative if he chose to. Mio did NOT say he was a sociopath as you very well know.

 

Thanks Holding-On, that's exactly right.

 

Play nice, people. And for the record, don't compare me to that bully Dr Phil. He's the antithesis of everything I stand for.

[Mio]

I think what is confusing you on the judgement thing is that you see folks condemning behavior, something that Jesus did many times.

 

Help me out here. When did Jesus actually condemn anyone's behaviour? I know he went off at the money-changers in the temple. Is that what you are thinking of? Are there any other examples?

 

 

But, as I said, rarely is there some tirade personally attacking someone or labeling them.

 

It is inconceivable to me that one would attempt to go through life not making judgements about certain behaviors or , based on a person's history, the likelihood that a person will engage in certain behaviors. When I think of the atrocites committed by some people, I make a judgement: this person is badly f-ed up, Danger Will Robonson.

I think I'm now batting 0-6 on the whole "judgement" thing and I'm thinking of just giving up for a while. I've studied modalities like Non-Violent Communication, where the removal of judgement from language is one of the key concepts. It also figures in depression, which is based on judgemental self-talk.

 

I've watched the damage that judgement did in my own life, and I watch it in others too. How we talk to each other is a reflection of how we talk to ourselves. If we're using judgemental language with other people, then we are certainly using that inside our heads. That leads to lots of unhappiness and stress.

 

But as I say, I think I have misunderstood your side, and your side has misunderstood mine. Maybe it's best to just lay down arms for now.

 

 

When I see someone initimately involved in helping destroy a family by way of infidelity and completely disregarding the welfare of the innocents involved, I make a judgement on that person's values and ability to empathize.

Judgement makes baby Jesus cry. What do you think Jesus would write if he were on this forum?

 

 

So, if GEL's point on the value of making judgements was lost on you, I cannot understand that.

I think we're all getting confused about words. GEL seemed to use the word 'judgement' as a synonym for 'decision'. That's not how I'm using the word. That's more like a 'judgement call'. I mean it more to mean 'value judgement', by which I mean that we subtly imply goodness or badness. Here's an example:

 

Negative term: Cheater

Neutral term: Affair participant

 

Positive term: BBW (big beautiful woman)

Negative term: Fat chick

Neutral term: Plus-sized

 

The negative terms are the ones I would describe as judgemental.

 

 

How do you lead your life, then. What guides you in making decisions? Given the choice between Ted Bundy and you teenage neighbor as a babysitter, wouldn't you make a judgement about the who to employ?

This is the same definition problem I described above - decision is not the same as judgement when I am using those words.

[bentnotbroken]

Help me out here. When did Jesus actually condemn anyone's behaviour? I know he went off at the money-changers in the temple. Is that what you are thinking of? Are there any other examples?

 

 

I think I'm now batting 0-6 on the whole "judgement" thing and I'm thinking of just giving up for a while. I've studied modalities like Non-Violent Communication, where the removal of judgement from language is one of the key concepts. It also figures in depression, which is based on judgemental self-talk.

 

I've watched the damage that judgement did in my own life, and I watch it in others too. How we talk to each other is a reflection of how we talk to ourselves. If we're using judgemental language with other people, then we are certainly using that inside our heads. That leads to lots of unhappiness and stress.

 

But as I say, I think I have misunderstood your side, and your side has misunderstood mine. Maybe it's best to just lay down arms for now.

 

 

Judgement makes baby Jesus cry. What do you think Jesus would write if he were on this forum?

 

 

I think we're all getting confused about words. GEL seemed to use the word 'judgement' as a synonym for 'decision'. That's not how I'm using the word. That's more like a 'judgement call'. I mean it more to mean 'value judgement', by which I mean that we subtly imply goodness or badness. Here's an example:

 

Negative term: Cheater

Neutral term: Affair participant

 

Positive term: BBW (big beautiful woman)

Negative term: Fat chick

Neutral term: Plus-sized

 

The negative terms are the ones I would describe as judgemental.

 

 

This is the same definition problem I described above - decision is not the same as judgement when I am using those words.

 

So what you are saying is that we all should be more politically correct. I am understanding this right?

[Mio]

So what you are saying is that we all should be more politically correct. I am understanding this right?

 

No, political correctness is dumb. I was just trying to describe what I meant by the word "judgement".

 

Let's give up for now. I'm putting my dictionary down

[LavendarGirl]

Hmm, maybe it would be a nice thing to stop picking on the New Guy! We could be debating all year regarding semantics and religion. Especially religion. Love and its complications has no religious or political affiliation. Love, passion, broken hearts, unrequieted love affects Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists...the list goes on.

 

[jj33]

That was my whole point Lavendar. Religion has NOTHING to do with it.

 

Its just another example of religion being used to put people down and persecute people not unlike the Taliban. I know I will get flamed for that one but it is the same thing when people hide behind religion.

 

This is NOT a religious forum. Of course adultery is going to offend some people's religous beliefs. Its a violation of the 10 commandments.

 

And of course adultery hurts the people involved. That is a no brainer.

 

But that doesnt have anything to do with the purpose of the OPs' posts. I dont see any thread titles like "would Jesus approve of my sleeping with another man's husband"?

 

Nor do I see any posts like gee do you think the W would be hurt if she knew I was sleeping with her H? these are givens. And its not helpful to raise them again and again in an attempt to shame the the OPs.

 

And intruding on threads to say why are you such a bad person is not supportive and not helpful in any way that I can see.

 

Its one thing for people to make value judgments its another to say they be so self righteous and insist that they have some higher moral authority to do so. And worse when they are taking out their anger and hurt on people who post seeking help and support.

 

So many of these self righteous comments are not supportive in any way whatsoever and designed to hurt the people who have posted and make them feel worse about themselves all so that these former BSs can feel better about themselves. Its just so much moral indignation.

 

In fact I read one thread by a BS on the infidelity forum who said she had to stop reading the OW forum because it made her too upset. The difference is SHE was always polite when she contributed here and never took tried to shame or take out her hurt and anger on the OPs. Very very big difference.

[LavendarGirl]

But that doesnt have anything to do with the purpose of the OPs' posts. I dont see any thread titles like "would Jesus approve of my sleeping with another man's husband"?

 

Nice post, jj, I agree 100% with everything you say. The would-Jesus-approve comment, though, cracked me up, and in a good way.

[OWoman]

That was my whole point Lavendar. Religion has NOTHING to do with it.

 

Its just another example of religion being used to put people down and persecute people not unlike the Taliban. I know I will get flamed for that one but it is the same thing when people hide behind religion.

 

This is NOT a religious forum. Of course adultery is going to offend some people's religous beliefs. Its a violation of the 10 commandments.

 

And of course adultery hurts the people involved. That is a no brainer.

 

But that doesnt have anything to do with the purpose of the OPs' posts. I dont see any thread titles like "would Jesus approve of my sleeping with another man's husband"?

 

Nor do I see any posts like gee do you think the W would be hurt if she knew I was sleeping with her H? these are givens. And its not helpful to raise them again and again in an attempt to shame the the OPs.

 

And intruding on threads to say why are you such a bad person is not supportive and not helpful in any way that I can see.

 

Its one thing for people to make value judgments its another to say they be so self righteous and insist that they have some higher moral authority to do so. And worse when they are taking out their anger and hurt on people who post seeking help and support.

 

So many of these self righteous comments are not supportive in any way whatsoever and designed to hurt the people who have posted and make them feel worse about themselves all so that these former BSs can feel better about themselves. Its just so much moral indignation.

 

In fact I read one thread by a BS on the infidelity forum who said she had to stop reading the OW forum because it made her too upset. The difference is SHE was always polite when she contributed here and never took tried to shame or take out her hurt and anger on the OPs. Very very big difference.

 

Spot on, JJ! Great post!

[jj33]

Thanks

 

I noticed I mistyped my faux thread title as "would Jesus approve of my sleeping with another man's husband" - I meant another "woman's" husband but same difference.

[LavendarGirl]

Thanks

 

I noticed I mistyped my faux thread title as "would Jesus approve of my sleeping with another man's husband" - I meant another "woman's" husband but same difference.

 

Oops, didn't even catch the man instead of woman typo, I guess I knew what you meant to say, and I was laughing too hard to notice!!

[Reggie]

Sigh.

This is slander and maliciousness. This is jeering and mockery. And quite frankly Reggie I am saddened to see you contributing to these 5th grade antics.

Please explain to me how this quote above is not directly an personal attack against a poster.

 

I remember Mio's post very well. In essence he said his therapist warned him that having taught Mio to read other people's emotions and control his own made Mio more capable of being manipulative if he chose to. Mio did NOT say he was a sociopath as you very well know.

 

Did not think I was contributing. I never saw Mio as a sociopath. I merely thought the concept of training to be a sociopath was bizzare.

[Reggie]

Sure, happy to answer that, gopher. I get the feeling that the haters think that if you aren't giving people a fire-and-brimstone lecture about the Evils Of Cheating, then you must be pouring them a drink, handing them a cigar and telling them to enjoy the ride.

 

I think a bit of perspective might help here. The kind of people who have no conscience, or are in some sort of early honeymoon phase of an affair, are not posting here. The only people who have motivation to post here will be people in pain. The compassionate response is to validate that pain and encourage the poster to see the likely reality they are facing longer term i.e. that their MM/MW will return to the marriage and hang them up to dry. It achieves the same goal but through self-interest, which is the most potent motivator.

 

So my answer to your question is that there is a better way to live our lives (i.e. without sin), and the compassionate response is to encourage people to see the truth of that, feel it in their hearts and let this change their lives. Telling people that their sin is "bad" and that they are "bad people" does not move many hearts. Helping people to understand why their choices are bringing them pain, and how they can make better choices, is what tends to move people towards wholeness again. That's how therapy works too.

 

My home forum is a message board for a kind of involuntary unrequited love. It's tragic watching people, some of whom are married, finding themselves falling in love with co-workers or other similar people. It's very confusing, but when they find us, they feel like they can breathe again. They almost always say how good it feels to be understood at last. They receive no judgement, only empathic support. Accordingly, we see quite a few people recover and return to normal relationships, and a lot of marriages restored. Like any support group, people in there take strength from each other.

 

Mio, I don't think poorly of you. But, in the above post you refer to people as "haters". Isn't that a violation of your own non-judgemental philosophy? I mean referring to another human being as a "hater" seems pretty pejorative, no?

[Mio]

Did not think I was contributing. I never saw Mio as a sociopath. I merely thought the concept of training to be a sociopath was bizzare.

 

It only meant something in the original context I used it in. You can't really "train to be a sociopath", but you can use listening skills to manipulate people. The comment was emphasising the importance of a set of values.

 

 

Mio, I don't think poorly of you. But, in the above post you refer to people as "haters". Isn't that a violation of your own non-judgemental philosophy? I mean referring to another human being as a "hater" seems pretty pejorative, no?

 

Yes, very pejorative, and yes a violation. I use it to make the point that "cheaters" is a hurtful pejorative.

[Mio]

So many of these self righteous comments are not supportive in any way whatsoever and designed to hurt the people who have posted and make them feel worse about themselves all so that these former BSs can feel better about themselves. Its just so much moral indignation.

 

That's how I see it. The Moral Police are just displacing their own anger in a misguided attempt to make themselves feel better.

 

 

In fact I read one thread by a BS on the infidelity forum who said she had to stop reading the OW forum because it made her too upset.

 

That's what really upsets me too. These moralists scare people away. I saw another thread where a guy was questioning the point of counselling. He felt so misunderstood on LS that he figured that no-one else would understand him either.

 

This idea that LS is like a marketplace of ideas, with OP's neutrally shopping for advice, is completely bogus. OP's read everything that is written, and when they are judged by the moralists, they hurt.

[jj33]

Thanks Mio. Actually that BS (a betrayed spouse) was in my view very respectful.

 

She was reading the OW board and trying to understand the mentality. The OW board is not meant as a support for her, for her was it she is not an OW and not looking for support as an OW.

 

She found it upsetting and she left. She did the right thing. Rather than bashing OW/OM she stopped reading.

 

I can of course stop reading posts by people I find upsetting but its harder to do when they are posting on boards meant to support someone in my position.

[Mio]

She found it upsetting and she left. She did the right thing. Rather than bashing OW/OM she stopped reading.

 

Could she have been upset just by the subject matter? Or was it all the vitriol that got to her?

 

 

I can of course stop reading posts by people I find upsetting but its harder to do when they are posting on boards meant to support someone in my position.

 

Yes, I was quite shocked when I got some of that in my own thread when I first got here. They don't realise what that does to a person when they are already hurting.

[jj33]

She was a betrayed spouse and she hated what we (OW OM) were saying because she was a BS.

 

But she had the grace, good manners and compassion to stop reading these boards and go back to the infidelity boards rather than to lurk here and be unkind. Now as far as I am concerned THAT is true Christian behavior!

[Reggie]

That's how I see it. The Moral Police are just displacing their own anger in a misguided attempt to make themselves feel better.

 

 

 

 

That's what really upsets me too. These moralists scare people away. I saw another thread where a guy was questioning the point of counselling. He felt so misunderstood on LS that he figured that no-one else would understand him either.

 

This idea that LS is like a marketplace of ideas, with OP's neutrally shopping for advice, is completely bogus. OP's read everything that is written, and when they are judged by the moralists, they hurt.

 

I do think WS's and OM/OWs discount the amount of harm they do to the betrayed and it is natural for a BS to want to point it out to them. It amazes me how this aspect of the cheating is completely disregarded. OM and OW's seem to focus onthings like the likeliehood of success in their relationships or the complications inherent in having a relationship with someone displaying low integrity.

If the pain caused to the BS is mentiuoned at all, it is often as a throw away afterthought.

I don't understand why this issue, the rightnes or wrongness of the act itself is not of paramont importance to someone. Rather, it seems that it is given little thought as folks want to focus on logistical and tactical issue of conducting affairs. It is quite depressing seeing this side of people.

[Reggie]

She was a betrayed spouse and she hated what we (OW OM) were saying because she was a BS.

 

But she had the grace, good manners and compassion to stop reading these boards and go back to the infidelity boards rather than to lurk here and be unkind. Now as far as I am concerned THAT is true Christian behavior!

Pleeeeeze:rolleyes:

[Reggie]

It only meant something in the original context I used it in. You can't really "train to be a sociopath", but you can use listening skills to manipulate people. The comment was emphasising the importance of a set of values.

 

 

 

 

Yes, very pejorative, and yes a violation. I use it to make the point that "cheaters" is a hurtful pejorative.

 

 

So, it is okay to "violate" the prohibition against labeling so long as it is done to make a point? I would think everyone is doing it to make a point. Your putting yourself in a box, here, Mio. You either subscribe to your beleif re judgemnet and lableing or you don't, Your reaching, big time, ifyou are trying to carve out an exception for "making a point". Gel already pointed out where you are inconsistent on this.

As for a religous basis for this being wrong, it is wrong on just about any etical level one wants to consider. No need to bring religion into it , although it is valid to do so.