What if your MM or MW had other Affairs?

[JamesM]

I think the point being made is as it says at the top of the page....

 

The Other Man / Woman The other side of the story: Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner.

 

While I enjoyed a good discussion here. it does irk me that LS has a board for those who are in affairs. It is meant as a place for support and not judgment. For those who have been betrayed, there is another board.

 

No, I don't always feel understanding of "cheaters" either, but then I think I should avoid posting on their threads.

 

 

Just how do I tell my children, nieces and nephews understand it? How do I get them to understand, that you father/uncle is no longer interested in being in your lives. He has found a new play mate, and he doesn't have time for you anymore.

 

I doubt it helps by coming here and trashing the OWs and OMs who post here. Nor does it help by trashing them in real life.

[Mio]

It is wonderful to have that as an ideal but it's not very realistic. And we do have commandments, but how many has everyone broken lately?

 

I know Everyone's a hypocrite! I readily admit that.

 

 

We make judgments we feel are best for our life. They keep you and your family safe. I personally don't care what other people do, but it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about it.

 

I've noticed that I've lost this semantic battle about 5 times so far on LS. When I say "judgment", I mean something special that sets it apart from discernment. I was pretty sure that Christians are taught that distinction, no?

 

All I mean is that we are culturally indoctrinated to apply value labels to all sorts of things. A value label is a label that implies 'goodness' or 'badness'. The process of applying a value label is called judgment.

 

It's like when George Bush used the term "evildoers". That's probably the ultimate value label!

 

 

You made a judgment that everyone needs compassionate support. How is that not a value call? You are determining the type of support and what the conditions of that are.

 

It's not my judgment - it's central to all the major faiths. Lack of compassion results in the world you see around us - war, oppression, poverty, servitude.

 

 

And I don't think that telling people they are bad or sinners is an effective way of getting through to people. But I've been here awhile and that is nothing compared to the battles that I was in when I first got here. Everyone has the ultimate judgment call-if you don't like what poster says, put them on ignore.

 

I'm sure I'm on ignore for plenty of posters.

 

I try really hard never to use ignore in any forum I'm in. I'll only use it if there's a cascade or flood happening. If I'm really bummed by what someone says, I just withdraw.

[bentnotbroken]

I think you are confusing sin and redemption. Adultery is a sin, biblically speaking, but Jesus did not condemn us for our sins. Sin keeps us from God, so Jesus reminds us of that. He does not ask us to go around trying to shame people in his name.

 

 

 

 

I object to all these value labels, because every one of them represents a judgment. All of them are still people and worthy of compassionate support.

 

Do you reduce all people to nouns? Is that really how you see your fellow man?

 

 

There is no where in the bible that says we are to support any wrong. We are to be compassionate with a person trying to reconcile with God and help him when he falls, but we don't hold the hand of a person who presets in sinning. What was I supposed to do, "Sure, honey. Even though God said that you shouldn't screw that other guys wife, but I will support you while you find your way back to God, how ever long it takes. He says that sometimes the have to be cast out so that they can find their own way without being a bad influence on others.

[Mio]

Just how do I tell my children, nieces and nephews understand it? How do I get them to understand, that you father/uncle is no longer interested in being in your lives. He has found a new play mate, and he doesn't have time for you anymore.

 

Bent, I'm truly sorry for what you have suffered. I am not asking you to feel any less outraged than you are about your personal situation.

 

I think James has covered the other part of what I wanted to say.

[Mio]

There is no where in the bible that says we are to support any wrong. We are to be compassionate with a person trying to reconcile with God and help him when he falls, but we don't hold the hand of a person who presets in sinning. What was I supposed to do, "Sure, honey. Even though God said that you shouldn't screw that other guys wife, but I will support you while you find your way back to God, how ever long it takes. He says that sometimes the have to be cast out so that they can find their own way without being a bad influence on others.

 

Please understand Bent, I am not here to judge your situation or how you have carried yourself within it. It's a very painful experience and your own personal feelings about your situation are always valid. I do not question them.

 

I'm only asking that we all be careful not to feel such feelings towards other people on this particular board - the OM/W forum - when they come here asking for help.

[bentnotbroken]

I think the point being made is as it says at the top of the page....

 

 

 

While I enjoyed a good discussion here. it does irk me that LS has a board for those who are in affairs. It is meant as a place for support and not judgment. For those who have been betrayed, there is another board.

 

No, I don't always feel understanding of "cheaters" either, but then I think I should avoid posting on their threads.

 

 

 

 

I doubt it helps by coming here and trashing the OWs and OMs who post here. Nor does it help by trashing them in real life.

 

 

What is one man's trash can be viewed by another as treasure. I have a way of supporting that isn't popular or understood by those who don't want to see there is another side. Another point of view. When you guys are holding hands and telling them to be patient, I and a few others are telling them the darker side. When a woman is praying for another's woman H and family, we let her know what that will entail. The idea that support has to only come in agreement with who ever is need, is bull. Support comes in facing the hardness of the situation and all the consequences that are being prayed for.

 

I makes me feel good when I get a private message, from someone who others have accused me of flaming. The really are genuine people who are looking for the narrow way out of a black forest. I won't change my message, we are one and the same. Do the right thing as soon as possible to avoid the collateral damage.

[Reggie]

I think you are confusing sin and redemption. Adultery is a sin, biblically speaking, but Jesus did not condemn us for our sins. Sin keeps us from God, so Jesus reminds us of that. He does not ask us to go around trying to shame people in his name.

 

 

 

 

I object to all these value labels, because every one of them represents a judgment. All of them are still people and worthy of compassionate support.

 

Do you reduce all people to nouns? Is that really how you see your fellow man?

 

Man is a noun, last I checked:confused:.

[jj33]

All you people who come to the OW/OM boards and bash us for being in affairs.

 

Have the audacity to tell us that we are violating religious norms. Your behavior is really out of line. And maybe we violate YOUR religious norms but thats the beauty of America isnt it? Religious freedom. We may have values that are different than yours.

 

 

But different religions aside, isnt one of the first teaching that only GOD gets to judge?

 

If so, then who the he** are you to pass judgement on us and say you are doing it because you are good Christians? Truly hypocritical.

 

Isnt another famous teaching, let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Noone is without sin.

 

And lashing out and taking pot shots at posters who are in the middle of heartbreak is just plain cruel, regardless of whether you think brought it on by their actions.

 

Your unkind posts are certainly not emblematic of "Christian behavior".

 

In my opinion, the judgement and the proselytising is not helpful. Its bitter, its ugly and its small minded.

 

Y'all make me sick.

[Reggie]

You are making a value judgment when you use the word compassionate. Everyone makes value judgments, including you and your questions to Bent suggesting that she has no compassion and is unsupportive and reduces people to labels and nouns.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

People make judgments and they should. Or there would be no rule of law or order in life. Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a right to disagree with it.

 

If everyone agrees with you, you cannot learn, you cannot grow and you cannot validate your beliefs.

 

 

This is so right. When did making judgements get such a bad rap? Who can lead his or her life in a meaningful way without making judgements? Who would invite Bundy to babysit?

[Reggie]

That's how I feel too, jj33. It says right at the top of the page: "Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner". How can vilifying all affair participants be construed as "support"?

 

Folks facing cognitive dissonance seem to routinely seek out the advice only from those who will tell them what they want to hear. This is very common among active affair participants. So, is someone really getting support if he or she does not hear the truth about the wrongness of cheating?

[bentnotbroken]

Please understand Bent, I am not here to judge your situation or how you have carried yourself within it. It's a very painful experience and your own personal feelings about your situation are always valid. I do not question them.

 

I'm only asking that we all be careful not to feel such feelings towards other people on this particular board - the OM/W forum - when they come here asking for help.

 

 

 

Some are asking for help, and I help them the only way I know how. If what I have to say works for you great. If it doesn't move on to someone who can help. I am not judging by stating a fact. The facts are that certain actions, will have certain consequences. We are all labeled and pigeon holed by others everyday. My level of compassion extends not to just the moment, but to what comes next or the after life if that is what you want to call it. There are few people here who will argue with you about what constitutes compassion, I am not one of them. I am too old to really care if someone thinks my compassion isn't up to what they think it should be.

 

I feel that some people's values aren't up to what they should be. Does that change the person, probably not. So if you believe that people involved in affairs aren't going to change any of their actions based on what I and others say(and our delivery of that opinion), I can argue that you are wrong and I have the PM's to prove it. It is a sure thing though that I won't change my personality because of you telling me how un-compassionate I am.

 

 

And I think it was you(I could be wrong and if I am I apologize in advance)who introduced the not judging into the conversation, with the story of the woman at the well. I just pointed out that scripture and be picked over to use only what you want. And a more in depth search will show you that Christians are told to go to their brothers and sisters and try to show them the actions that will hurt them and others.

 

Hell I once told a pregnant woman I saw smoking she shouldn't do that because it endangers the health of her unborn child, she went off, as she should have. Here is a stranger telling her what she shouldn't be doing, but I did what was required of me and that's all that I was supposed to do. It isn't popular, or easy or fun, but I do live my life by God's standards as best I can. I am still learning, growing and improving on the things that are still screwed up in me.

[bentnotbroken]

All you people who come to the OW/OM boards and bash us for being in affairs.

 

Have the audacity to tell us that we are violating religious norms. Your behavior is really out of line. And maybe we violate YOUR religious norms but thats the beauty of America isnt it? Religious freedom. We may have values that are different than yours.

 

 

But different religions aside, isnt one of the first teaching that only GOD gets to judge?

 

If so, then who the he** are you to pass judgement on us and say you are doing it because you are good Christians? Truly hypocritical.

 

Isnt another famous teaching, let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Noone is without sin.

 

And lashing out and taking pot shots at posters who are in the middle of heartbreak is just plain cruel, regardless of whether you think brought it on by their actions.

 

Your unkind posts are certainly not emblematic of "Christian behavior".

 

In my opinion, the judgement and the proselytising is not helpful. Its bitter, its ugly and its small minded.

 

Y'all make me sick.

 

 

They might have a pill for that.

[bentnotbroken]

You are making a value judgment when you use the word compassionate. Everyone makes value judgments, including you and your questions to Bent suggesting that she has no compassion and is unsupportive and reduces people to labels and nouns.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

People make judgments and they should. Or there would be no rule of law or order in life. Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a right to disagree with it.

 

If everyone agrees with you, you cannot learn, you cannot grow and you cannot validate your beliefs.

 

Thanks GEL.

[bentnotbroken]

I often wonder why ANYONE quotes scripture in this forum. Because honestly, everyone here KNOWS that adultery is less than ideal or they wouldn't worry about the W finding out, would they?

 

And taking into account that most people even agree that adultery is wrong, apparently they don't care that much and spouting Bible verses sure won't deter them.

 

And for those who think adultery isn't wrong, I'm sure they would be singing another tune if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

Bent, a cheater is still a cheater by any other name. He or she cheats their spouse, their OP and themself. Anyone who says different hasn't come to terms with what they are doing and are trying to justify it. (This is not aimed at anyone, just an observation from experience.)

 

Personally, I think it's much more authentic to realize that you're sleeping with someone else's spouse. You're not doing their spouse a favor. At some point you have to accept what you're doing for what it is. And if you don't like how it sounds, then change it.

 

Call a spade a spade. No matter how much you love them. It doesn't mean that they'll always cheat. It means that they're cheating now. And they have a lot of work to do so they don't continue the cycle.

 

GEL

 

True, so true.

[gopher]

Please read my reply to Bent. Someone asked what Jesus had to say about adultery, so the quotation was relevant and contextual.

 

I'm curious though Mio, what about the "go and sin no more" portion?...

[Mio]

I'm curious though Mio, what about the "go and sin no more" portion?...

 

Sure, happy to answer that, gopher. I get the feeling that the haters think that if you aren't giving people a fire-and-brimstone lecture about the Evils Of Cheating, then you must be pouring them a drink, handing them a cigar and telling them to enjoy the ride.

 

I think a bit of perspective might help here. The kind of people who have no conscience, or are in some sort of early honeymoon phase of an affair, are not posting here. The only people who have motivation to post here will be people in pain. The compassionate response is to validate that pain and encourage the poster to see the likely reality they are facing longer term i.e. that their MM/MW will return to the marriage and hang them up to dry. It achieves the same goal but through self-interest, which is the most potent motivator.

 

So my answer to your question is that there is a better way to live our lives (i.e. without sin), and the compassionate response is to encourage people to see the truth of that, feel it in their hearts and let this change their lives. Telling people that their sin is "bad" and that they are "bad people" does not move many hearts. Helping people to understand why their choices are bringing them pain, and how they can make better choices, is what tends to move people towards wholeness again. That's how therapy works too.

 

My home forum is a message board for a kind of involuntary unrequited love. It's tragic watching people, some of whom are married, finding themselves falling in love with co-workers or other similar people. It's very confusing, but when they find us, they feel like they can breathe again. They almost always say how good it feels to be understood at last. They receive no judgement, only empathic support. Accordingly, we see quite a few people recover and return to normal relationships, and a lot of marriages restored. Like any support group, people in there take strength from each other.

[Mio]

This is so right. When did making judgements get such a bad rap? Who can lead his or her life in a meaningful way without making judgements? Who would invite Bundy to babysit?

 

It didn't even make sense, so I'm not sure how it can be "right".

 

Regardless, to answer your question about when judgments got a bad rap, it depends: Christ or The Buddha? Take your pick.

[Mio]

Folks facing cognitive dissonance seem to routinely seek out the advice only from those who will tell them what they want to hear. This is very common among active affair participants. So, is someone really getting support if he or she does not hear the truth about the wrongness of cheating?

 

Check out my other reply just now to Gopher. Answer: yes. People can still hear about the long-term consequences without being bashed about the "wrongness of cheating".

 

Reggie, are you a Christian?

[Mio]

And I think it was you(I could be wrong and if I am I apologize in advance)who introduced the not judging into the conversation, with the story of the woman at the well. I just pointed out that scripture and be picked over to use only what you want. And a more in depth search will show you that Christians are told to go to their brothers and sisters and try to show them the actions that will hurt them and others.

 

Hell I once told a pregnant woman I saw smoking she shouldn't do that because it endangers the health of her unborn child, she went off, as she should have. Here is a stranger telling her what she shouldn't be doing, but I did what was required of me and that's all that I was supposed to do. It isn't popular, or easy or fun, but I do live my life by God's standards as best I can. I am still learning, growing and improving on the things that are still screwed up in me.

 

Bent, we're not so far apart on this topic as you might think. My side is based on showing people the likely consequences of their actions too. People in affairs often don't realise the longer term picture, and how the odds are stacked heavily against them.

 

As I said in another post, I come from a forum where people involuntarily fall in love with inappropriate people. Some of them are married. It's horrifying for them when it happens. Fortunately, we don't tell them they are "bad" people. That would only make things worse, because it's quite likely they already feel unlovable and that's what brought them to that point in the first place. We give them lots of support, let them know they aren't "bad" and then we help them to see that what they are going through isn't real and that it will only keep on making them miserable.

 

We'd get nowhere in my forum if we condemned people for having sinful thoughts. The married people who show up in our forums are already punching themselves up pretty good.

 

I'm heartened to hear that you are trying to live up to God's standards. It's a difficult road at times. Can I ask you something seriously: are Americans brought up with a stronger knowledge of the Old Testament, than the New Testament? I'm asking because, as a non-American, we often scratch our heads at the actions of evangelical Christians, who seem to act in all manner of ways that Christ clearly never would have.

[LavendarGirl]

Sure, happy to answer that, gopher. I get the feeling that the haters think that if you aren't giving people a fire-and-brimstone lecture about the Evils Of Cheating, then you must be pouring them a drink, handing them a cigar and telling them to enjoy the ride.

 

I think a bit of perspective might help here. The kind of people who have no conscience, or are in some sort of early honeymoon phase of an affair, are not posting here. The only people who have motivation to post here will be people in pain. The compassionate response is to validate that pain and encourage the poster to see the likely reality they are facing longer term i.e. that their MM/MW will return to the marriage and hang them up to dry. It achieves the same goal but through self-interest, which is the most potent motivator.

 

So my answer to your question is that there is a better way to live our lives (i.e. without sin), and the compassionate response is to encourage people to see the truth of that, feel it in their hearts and let this change their lives. Telling people that their sin is "bad" and that they are "bad people" does not move many hearts. Helping people to understand why their choices are bringing them pain, and how they can make better choices, is what tends to move people towards wholeness again. That's how therapy works too.

 

Nicely put, Mio.

[Mio]

Nicely put, Mio.

 

Thanks LG. I haven't caught up with the latest on your situation, but I'm hoping you're doing well. Keep fighting the good fight!

[Mio]

I don't know much about the evangelical Christian stance other than I don't agree with their interpretation of the bible(i/e women in the pulpit). So I can't honestly answer that question without much knowledge of their doctrine. I read the word for myself, I ask questions, research and I have found a congregation that seems to do the same. My knowledge of the Old Testament is about the same as the New(needs a lot more work:o)but, I do know the birth and death of Christ made some things obsolete.

 

Fair enough. Even though I'm not someone who calls myself a Christian, I have long had a fascination for Jesus' teachings. It was his compassion and forgiveness most of all that impressed me, perhaps because these were qualities that were absent in my family upbringing.

 

Even at the very end - in death - he still said, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do". That's kind of my motto these days. I don't think people are really fully conscious of the damage they do to themselves and others. I'm a bit hypocritical in this sense, because I will initially jump up and down sometimes if I think someone should know better. After I calm down though, I realise my righteous anger is not helping and I start to think: WWJD?

 

Now that I''ve read Eckhart Tolle, I have even more respect for Jesus' teachings.

[Reggie]

I did read it and I know the scripture.

 

But like I said, it's not a deterrent and pretty out of place in the subject matter. The people who really care about it are not the ones it's aimed at.

 

Thus, I don't understand why it's tossed about frequently here, period.

 

Kind of like, in one ear, out the other, kwim.

I'm not sure you can speak for all the OM/OW on the site, GEL. Some may very well be influenced by scripture. Are you suggesting that anyone who goes astray neccessarily abandons his or her religous principles permanently? To some, a remider of this nature may hit home. You simply do not know that all the folks on this forum consider scripture irrelavent.

[NoIDidn't]

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but I can tell by the title that it is WAAAAY off topic now.

 

How in the world did y'all start talking about scripture? And jj33 telling everyone they make her sick? And GEL gave everyone permission to make values judgments?

 

And Mio? The newbie that comes off like a Dr. Phil junkie? Don't even get me started.

 

What a hoot!!!

[Reggie]

Check out my other reply just now to Gopher. Answer: yes. People can still hear about the long-term consequences without being bashed about the "wrongness of cheating".

 

Reggie, are you a Christian?

 

Yes, Mio. I was raised Catholic, attended parochial and Jesuit Schools, did the altar boy thing etc.

First, I must say that I seldom see the labeling or bashing here that you claim to see. Rather, I see folks pointing out the fact that cheating hurts not only the OW or OM in the long run, but the families involved.

I'm sure yu can point out isolated instances of labeling among the posts. But, in general, there is forceful but civil and respectful dissent.

I think what is confusing you on the judgement thing is that you see folks condemning behavior, something that Jesus did many times. But, as I said, rarely is there some tirade personally attacking someone or labeling them.

 

It is inconceivable to me that one would attempt to go through life not making judgements about certain behaviors or , based on a person's history, the likelihood that a person will engage in certain behaviors. When I think of the atrocites committed by some people, I make a judgemnet: this person is badly f-ed up, Danger Will Robonson.

When I see someone initimately involved in helping destroy a family by way of infidelity and completely disregarding the welfare of the innocents involved, I make a judgement on that person's values and ability to empathize.

So, if GEL's point on the value of making judgements was lost on you, I cannot understand that.

How do you lead your life, then. What guides you in making decisions? Given the choice between Ted Bundy and you teenage neighbor as a babysitter, wouldn't you make a judgement about the who to employ?