What if your MM or MW had other Affairs?

[herenow]

Well, I didn't put it so simplistically. We could have a great discussion here about responsibility and consciousness, but since we all seem to disagree on the most basic of concepts and terms, I'm not even going to try

 

People aren't automatons. They are greatly swayed by their emotions into doing things that they might otherwise think they are incapable of. Retrospectively, I think they can learn from this. That's where responsibility comes in. We can take responsibility to learn why we behave the way we do, in the hope of changing in the future.

 

If you are interested, that discussion took place pages ago.

 

Gotta go, little league baseball starts this week, so off to pitching practice I go. (with my son of course). I'm a better bench warmer.

[Reggie]

Which line?

 

The entry into an affair. It takes a lot of planning and some continous lying to get into an affair. I don't think folks merely slip into these affairs.

[Mio]

The entry into an affair. It takes a lot of planning and some continous lying to get into an affair. I don't think folks merely slip into these affairs.

 

Jesus Reggie, you make it sound like Microsoft Project! It just isn't like that. Maybe down the track it takes conscious effort and planning to sustain the increased contact. But at the start, it often just happens. You're just talking to a friend or a colleague and they give you understanding. By degrees, you draw closer and closer to them emotionally. One day, you discover you have growing feelings for them.

 

It's like being in quicksand. A lot of the struggling actually makes it worse.

[NoIDidn't]

The entry into an affair. It takes a lot of planning and some continous lying to get into an affair. I don't think folks merely slip into these affairs.

 

I agree, Reggie. No matter what some may claim. Affairs don't just happen, or I would have had several of them by now. Its not that I am an angel, far from it. I just take the time to consider my actions and protect those that I love from destructive behavior on my part.

 

Things like meeting with a co-worker alone for lunch for days on end, or talking to the same co-worker over the phone and crossing into personal territory too much. Things like spending too much time with that married co-worker and then listening to them talk poorly about their life in general and thinking that you can help them. Before you know it, you are in a EA and the PA isn't far behind if you don't stop the EA in time.

 

So, like I said, I agree with you, Reggie. Affairs don't just happen. Most people know that they are not chance occurrences when both parties know that one of them is married.

[Mio]

Things like meeting with a co-worker alone for lunch for days on end' date=' or talking to the same co-worker over the phone and crossing into personal territory too much. Things like spending too much time with that married co-worker and then listening to them talk poorly about their life in general and thinking that you can help them. Before you know it, you are in a EA and the PA isn't far behind if you don't stop the EA in time.[/quote']

 

I agree that these are ways in which affairs start. I disagree though that everyone recognises them as warning signs.

[NoIDidn't]

I agree that these are ways in which affairs start. I disagree though that everyone recognises them as warning signs.

 

And I agree with your disagreement. LOL.

 

Not everyone recognizes the signs. Not everyone wants to recognize it. But I have been in that situation more than once. Sometimes I wanted to go further but didn't have the guts. Sometimes I didn't want to go further for MANY reasons: I'm married and don't want to hurt my H or M, I wasn't attracted to the guy, too many nosey people in the office, the list goes on and on.

[Mio]

And I agree with your disagreement. LOL.

 

Not everyone recognizes the signs. Not everyone wants to recognize it. But I have been in that situation more than once. Sometimes I wanted to go further but didn't have the guts. Sometimes I didn't want to go further for MANY reasons: I'm married and don't want to hurt my H or M, I wasn't attracted to the guy, too many nosey people in the office, the list goes on and on.

 

I'm glad we found some common ground. My wife and I were very co-dependant, so leaving was very hard. I used a work friendship as a way of breaking free. I was always careful to keep a certain distance from her - no touching, no personal compliments or flirting.

 

I'd never even heard of "emotional affairs" until then. I was devastated to discover the idea, and once I acknowledged it, it set in motion the beginning of the end of the EA.

 

Some months later, another married colleague started to meet with me in the courtyard during my breaks. This time, I was a lot more aware of my boundaries and I shut down the contact really fast. Even though my marriage was ending, I didn't want to bring hurt into hers. It was very tough to resist though! Around that time, I was looking to rent a house near work. Unwittingly, the main contender was a house right next door to my married colleague's! I ruled it out once I found this out. She seemed to be disappointed, but I knew it would end in disaster if I put myself that close to her.

[bentnotbroken]

Jesus Reggie, you make it sound like Microsoft Project! It just isn't like that. Maybe down the track it takes conscious effort and planning to sustain the increased contact. But at the start, it often just happens. You're just talking to a friend or a colleague and they give you understanding. By degrees, you draw closer and closer to them emotionally. One day, you discover you have growing feelings for them.

 

It's like being in quicksand. A lot of the struggling actually makes it worse.

 

 

I think that growing closer and developing feelings is normal for most people. I also think that the choice to continue growing closer and giving in to those feelings, is the decision that tests the strength of a person's convictions.

[Mio]

I think that growing closer and developing feelings is normal for most people. I also think that the choice to continue growing closer and giving in to those feelings, is the decision that tests the strength of a person's convictions.

 

That's a very interesting idea, Bent, and I think I would be hard pressed to argue against it.

 

What do we mean by "convictions" though? That seems to be the important word here. It's a strong belief, yes?

[NoIDidn't]

I think convictions = values in Bent's context.

 

I didn't have the guts to push the limits of my values. That, and I was afraid of losing control of my feelings. Love and lust are messy and complicated.

[bentnotbroken]

I think convictions = values in Bent's context.

 

I didn't have the guts to push the limits of my values. That, and I was afraid of losing control of my feelings. Love and lust are messy and complicated.

 

 

I like everyone else, want to feel attractive to others. I would like to have someone feel as though what I have to say matters and is interesting(hang on my every word), but(there is always a but)I have never wanted to do anything that I would be ashamed of when I looked back.

 

Have I done things to be ashamed of, damn straight. Some intentional, some without much thought to the consequences or who would be hurt, and some because I didn't know any better. I never said that it was easy being human, far from it. But I have to answer for my actions to so many people. My children, my mother, my siblings, the kids I work with, my church family, myself and my God. My life has a ripple effect on so many others, I don't want that responsibility, for even one thinking about doing something foolish because of me.

 

Those are the things that convict me. Those are the things I value more than any moment(s) of pleasure that might happen.

[Mio]

I think convictions = values in Bent's context.

 

I didn't have the guts to push the limits of my values. That, and I was afraid of losing control of my feelings. Love and lust are messy and complicated.

 

It's a scary place to go, isn't it. When we are in these kinds of situations, the temptations can be quite strong.

 

I did push my values and paid a huge emotional price. It did force me to look deep inside myself though, so there were some good consequences too.

[Reggie]

I don't know. I can tell when I am developing feelings. I mean, how can't one know?

Mio, you mean to tell me that you really were unaware of what was developing? If that is the case, why would you feel badly about it upon recognizing it? If you were incapable of being aware, there was no intent.

I think the fact that you feel bad about it shows that you are aware that you were aware(awkward way of putting it-sorry).

You have to factor in that there is a strong desire in most folks to minimize the intentionality in these things in order to feel better about what happened,IMO.

[NoIDidn't]

Have I done things to be ashamed of, damn straight. Some intentional, some without much thought to the consequences or who would be hurt, and some because I didn't know any better. I never said that it was easy being human, far from it. But I have to answer for my actions to so many people. My children, my mother, my siblings, the kids I work with, my church family, myself and my God. My life has a ripple effect on so many others, I don't want that responsibility, for even one thinking about doing something foolish because of me.

 

Those are the things that convict me. Those are the things I value more than any moment(s) of pleasure that might happen.

 

Bent, that last line reminds me of one of my constant meditations from scripture. It comes from Hebrews and speaks of how Moses could have stayed in Pharoah's house and enjoyed the pleasures of sin - for a season. Because that's just it - it only last for a season. And that's not worth pushing the limits of my values for.

[Mio]

Mio, you mean to tell me that you really were unaware of what was developing? If that is the case, why would you feel badly about it upon recognizing it? If you were incapable of being aware, there was no intent.

I think the fact that you feel bad about it shows that you are aware that you were aware(awkward way of putting it-sorry).

You have to factor in that there is a strong desire in most folks to minimize the intentionality in these things in order to feel better about what happened,IMO.

 

I know what you mean. People do try to re-write history a bit in that way.

 

I did my very best in therapy to get to the bottom of it all. I was aware that I was enjoying this person's company. I felt like if I kept physical boundaries around myself, then I wasn't betraying my values. I came to really care for her in a way that surprised me.

 

The problem was that by the time I knew I cared about her, I was done for. My feelings were taking over. I read some things on the Net about physical affairs, and that's when I discovered the term "emotional affair".

 

So all that time, I had thought I was skirting the line. Instead, I was already over it.

[Reggie]

Well, heck, I have female friends I care about.Nothing wrong with that. Were you feeling attracted and were things getting romantic? What makes you think you had an affair, caring about someone?

[Zab]

 

I'd be freaking pissed.

 

-Z

[Mio]

Well, heck, I have female friends I care about.Nothing wrong with that. Were you feeling attracted and were things getting romantic? What makes you think you had an affair, caring about someone?

 

I fell in love with her, Reggie. Didn't even see it coming! I'm an INFP (if you know your Myer-Briggs types), and one of our traits is loyalty. It's one of my core values. All of a sudden I had this irreconcilable dual loyalty. I felt like I was trying to walk with one foot nailed to the ground! As you can imagine, I felt my spirit tearing down the middle. This was the crisis that marked the very bottom of my depression and the start of my recovery.

[frannie]

So, let's just say that neither choice is "easy". I will stick with leaving is easier because it allows avoidance and gives the person, like you said, a chance to start clean.

 

Staying requires work, unless of course the person is staying without intent to change or stop being an adulterer. In that case, then yes, staying is the best of both worlds for that person. But, oh so cruel to the betrayed.

 

Staying is definitely easier. What usually happens (from what I've read, and from my experience with xMM) is that with or without a d-day, no 'work' is done on the marriage relationship post-affair, and the MM either starts up the original affair again, or, because nothing has really changed at home, starts another one later.

 

In that case, can you say the man is a 'serial cheater', in the sense that he'd cheat whatever his main relationship was? Or is he cheating because he's still in the same situation, whatever his needs were that weren't being met are still not being met (after the 'hysterical bonding' sex has petered out), or whatever? There's no real way of knowing that.

 

To go back to the original question, IF I knew that a MM of mine had cheated on more than one partner, then I'd give him up as a bad job (unless, perhaps, he got himself a lot of therapy), because it would seem to me that he simply could not be satisfied with one woman. Ditto if he was cheating on me (as the OW) with another OW. However, If he'd cheated on the same partner more than once, I would be willing to concede that he was repeating the same behaviour because the circumstances were the same.

 

None of which makes cheating a good choice.

[frannie]

Cheat is SOOOO much easier to type than "commit adultery" or "have an affair." :rolleyes: And, for clarity, I meant, "...cheat and cheat again."

 

Actually, I think 'cheating' and 'committing adultery' or even 'having an affair' are different things. I consider cheating to be having sex (or an otherwise 'inappropriate' relationship) with someone other than your partner without their consent or knowledge.

 

I think that it would still be adultery, (and in some circumstances, an affair), if your primary partner knew about the relationship and approved of it, as in for example in poly relationships, or where someone is not interested in sex themselves, but gives permission for their partner to have sex with others. That's still 'having sex outside marriage' (adultery?), but it's not 'cheating'.

 

Cheating, to me, is when someone is going behind their partner's back. Which is why it's still cheating, and being cheated on, when as an OW, one learns of an OOW. Or even that the OW learns the MM is sleeping with his W when he said he wasn't. Yes, I know that seems laughable, but when you're basing a relationship on trust, you do trust, however naive that seems. And once again I'd compare the knowing BS who 'trusts' that her H isn't still seeing the OW. Often I'll be reading on Surviving Infidelity and think: how naive can you be, of course he's still seeing her. In that sense, I don't see that OW are to be villified for their naivety any less than knowing BS (in that case) 'should be' for theirs.

 

The bottom line in all of this is trust, and can you trust someone who has cheated on you? i.e. someone who has lied to you about their relationships with others, and now you find out about it. And that goes for knowing BSs, women who thought they were dating a single man and he turns out to be married, and OW who find out about OOW.

[Mio]

Often I'll be reading on Surviving Infidelity

 

I'd never heard of that board until you mentioned it. Interesting to note the forum description for their WS forum:

 

A forum for all Former WS's who have ended or trying to end their affairs and are striving to reconcile. BS's are not to post on threads unless the WS is seeking and asks for BS responses. BS's are not to start threads asking questions of the WS's. Emotions may run high, so if you find yourself too new to your own pain, we ask that you step back. This is a protected forum and threads from this forum are not to be taken to any other forum for discussion. We ask that anyone participating be respectful and non-judgemental. Being disrespectful to the forum description will result in your losing access to this forum without warning.

[frannie]

I'd never heard of that board until you mentioned it. Interesting to note the forum description for their WS forum:

 

A forum for all Former WS's who have ended or trying to end their affairs and are striving to reconcile. BS's are not to post on threads unless the WS is seeking and asks for BS responses. BS's are not to start threads asking questions of the WS's. Emotions may run high, so if you find yourself too new to your own pain, we ask that you step back. This is a protected forum and threads from this forum are not to be taken to any other forum for discussion. We ask that anyone participating be respectful and non-judgemental. Being disrespectful to the forum description will result in your losing access to this forum without warning.

 

I have to say that I think that forum is incredibly well run indeed.

[Mio]

I have to say that I think that forum is incredibly well run indeed.

 

Yep, I've been touring around it for the last few mins. Very impressive - lots of structure from the mods. I like the stop-sign system too.

[HappyAtLast]

Denial is a HUGE part of the whole affair process.

 

Yes, it is. I KNEW that the types of conversations I was having with my then-OW and the closeness that we were developing was inappropriate for a married man and a single woman.

 

It is my belief that anyone engaging in such behavior with acknowledging it as inappropriate is in denial.

 

To answer the original question, knowing her as I do, I believe that, had my then-OW had any reason to believe that she was not my first affair, she would not have engaged in a relationship with me. She would simply have walked away.

[Reggie]

I'd never heard of that board until you mentioned it. Interesting to note the forum description for their WS forum:

 

A forum for all Former WS's who have ended or trying to end their affairs and are striving to reconcile. BS's are not to post on threads unless the WS is seeking and asks for BS responses. BS's are not to start threads asking questions of the WS's. Emotions may run high, so if you find yourself too new to your own pain, we ask that you step back. This is a protected forum and threads from this forum are not to be taken to any other forum for discussion. We ask that anyone participating be respectful and non-judgemental. Being disrespectful to the forum description will result in your losing access to this forum without warning.

 

Mio, you'll notice on SI that the WS forum is limited to folks that are trying to stop or have stopped cheating. And, other WS's do come down pretty hard on those that backslide or try to justify the cheating.

On this site, LS, the OM/OW forum seldom has postings from folks that regret cheating. Many are looking for justifications or making inquiries about how to continue or the logistics of maintaining the deception.

You'll see plenty of judgement on justifying or backsliding on the SI forum.