What if your MM or MW had other Affairs?

[wildsoul]

This does not rule out that when the feelings of "true love" seem to evaporate because they do and will, I must remember to commit myself and put my marriage on my To Do list to get us through those tough times.

 

Men operate less on feelings and more on actions. If they applied this strategy to their marriages as they do their careers, then they would keep the feelings alive for their wives.

 

I am not sure this is making sense, but the way men think does not mean they love less.

Good stuff, JamesM. Good stuff.

[Reggie]

James, are you the poster boy for male sterotyping? So much of what you attribute to men is simply not true, in my expierience. These broad generalizations about men , their motivations and their modus operandi are not accurate.

[herenow]

I've heard men explain that they don't want their kids to hate them for hurting their mom. Also, a lot of women will definitely use the children as a way to emotionally punish the stbxh.

 

A man who cares if the kids will hate them if he hurts their mom, won't hurt their mom. That man is less likely to have an affair in the first place. The affair itself is what is most hurtful to their mom.

 

I think that some MM tell the OW that the BW uses the kids so that they aren't blamed by the OW for not leaving the marriage. It's the perfect excuse for the cake-man. Most OW won't question a MM's love for his kids. Again, most BW don't want to stay married to a man who loves an OW. And, most mothers are aware that kids need their father as well as their mother. JMO.

[Holding-On]

James, are you the poster boy for male stereotyping? So much of what you attribute to men is simply not true, in my expierience. These broad generalizations about men , their motivations and their modus operandi are not accurate.

 

Definitely true but I wonder if these generalizations may not in fact be true about many MM?

 

A hard driving, goal driven, successful, stereotypically masculine, sexually assertive man who is deeply attached to his children's well-being and is self-sacrificing for his woman/vows (even if that is only a delusion he promotes on his part) is likely to be exactly the sort of man many women will want/be turned on by.

[Myusername]

JamesM

I have gotten a lot out of your posts. I was the original poster and this thread has become even way better than I could have hoped for. SO many people have posted valid and interesting points.

You have greatly helped me look into some questions I had about my exMM. Now separated.

 

While I did and do believe he loves me, and I am unique for him, it had become painfully clear in ways, that he was lacking something I could provide, and provide well and that his marriage, although not in good shape, just lost its course.

 

I love what you said about if men put the same energy or strategies at home, as they do at work (not in those terms) some marriages may work better. Its two way street, some women stop trying, some men do, some people go different directions.

 

I am not recalling some painful words from my exMM that when I would occassional ask if he loved his wife (i tried to help he go to her and work it out and be honest..many times) his reply was..."IT's NOT WHAT IT ONCE WAS". It always struck me as sort of a regular thing that happens in marriage, it rarely stays the same as 20 years ago, but that he, like so many others, had fallen into the bored category...she became his roomate.

 

WHo knows, but when people are 20 years old, do you really think they know who they are, who they will be and if they can have a lasting, loving and hot /passionate marriage for the duration? I dont. I think its rare I should say. Sure some marriages stay fresh, but both people have to try.

 

I think that women and men were not necessarilly designed to start marriages at 20 or 25 and expect it to be what IT ONCE WAS at age 40 or 50 or 60. I think that second or third marriages (I have never been married) may have a better chance because people have grown more into their own skin, are more developed and have had time to learn and grow. Obviously marriage is hard, and staying in love with someone you see day after day, sick and angry, happy and sad , etc must be hard.

 

I am a true commitment phobe in every way, yet am caring, loving and giving. I still think it is incredibly hard to sustain a long term relationship...thats just me. I am not good at sharing me, my space sometimes and I enjoy the flexibility of going where I want. Tied into that I distrust men to be faithful and I to a degree, distrust myself to be faithful for the long term. So....here we are.

 

While I was deep in my emotional affair and physical affair, I truly thought I was (we were) the most unique passionate team on earth. I now see so many similarities in stories and it opens my eyes to a lot of truth and reality.

 

Anyway, I ramble, therefore I am. lol

your posts have helped me a lot..especially when I am in the midst of deciding what to about my separated MM...and if we should see eachother at all. It seems so complicated now, and I envision if he were free, it would be easy. These boards really put it all in my face, and now i can think more clearly.

 

Life is tricky and emotional at times, and beautiful at others hah?

My head is spinning in fast clicks..lol

thanks for all your have said from a mans perspective, it sure helps me more than you know

MUN

[herenow]

Definitely true but I wonder if these generalizations may not in fact be true about many MM?

 

A hard driving, goal driven, successful, stereotypically masculine, sexually assertive man who is deeply attached to his children's well-being and is self-sacrificing for his woman/vows (even if that is only a delusion he promotes on his part) is likely to be exactly the sort of man many women will want/be turned on by.

 

Yes, but it's the delusion that makes the reality that the affair is a fantasy. Hope that makes sense.

 

IMO, the affair is an escape from the MM's inner demons. It masks the pain just like drugs for a addict or alcohol for an alcoholic.

 

Again, when there is true love for the OW, I still believe that he MM will leave the marriage in the best interest of all involved, the BW, the OW and himself.

[Myusername]

Oh so true, Holding On

I completely see this point, and it's so dead on...in many ways

MUN

[Holding-On]

Yes, but it won't last. I speak from experience. Two years ago, I did just that, and she became very passionate. But then after four or five months everything became normal. No, I have not started an affair, but I can say that this ultimatum strategy does not bring lasting change.

 

And yes, I said those exact words.

This has been almost exactly my experience with my MM.

 

Excepting that he has no children and I was not looking for an exculsive relationship.

 

Apparently when he told his wife that I had asked if they had an open marriage she was very nice to him for a little bit (she knew that he had informed me that his marriage was closed) and then very quickly reverted to type.

 

I hear ya, but I think most affairs only start because the marriage is unsatisfactory. It is nice as the OW to pretend it is love that brought them together, but in most cases, she was the one who was there when he needed the affair.

 

My MM has said as much to me. "x" years ago this never would have been/never been a possibility for him because his relationship with his wife was fulfilling enough.

 

I would add that many MM may want to half-believe that it is "true love" in order for it to be more honorable to them. And in the rush of endorphins/infatuation it certainly is and would feel like a type of love.

 

True. But he has more love and respect for his wife despite his trashing of the marital vows. When the bluff is called, then he stays. It may be that she uses the children. It may be that he actually loves her. Who knows the reason. But if he had love and respect for the OW, then he would never have continued the affair while married.

 

Well he made a vow to the wife. I don't think 100% lifetime sexual exclusivity is very desirable personally but cheating or not it wouldn't speak well of him if he just up and completely stopped caring about her.

 

If you have more than one child you don't stop loving the first just because you have another. So I would think/hope that he does love his wife on some level. I do not see why this is a hard concept.

 

Feelings: You can love more than one person at a time.

 

Actions: You are only legally allowed to be married to one.

[Myusername]

Here and now

I agree with a lot and sometimes disagree. I know some men who did or would leave becuase they really were in horrid marriages and fell madly in love. I know other men that wont leave even though they are in love..or think they are in love with the OW. I see many reasons and even if reasons are excuses, they keep a man where he is.

 

Many men wont want to leave the kids (they think they will loose them entirely) and wont leave their finances to ruin and wont break a family up especially with kids at home. I think many men stay in truly unhappy marriages and women as well for sure, because they wont give up the security or money or best interest of kids etc. I feel respect for some of these men and women, sadness for others, and for others I applaud them leaving a really bad situation. Its so gray really, no two situations are the same, tho many are similar.

 

I used to really no be able to understand how my ex MM could tell me he loved me, was in love with me and that I was the most amazing, loving etc women he ever met and being with me was medicine (good medicine..lol) and yet go home to his wife. He spent 5 years telling me he loved me, sort of, but i know he loves his wife and kids so deeply. He could not bear breaking them up.

 

Although he did get separated, the guilt and pain is overcoming him and his world. He did not leave her for me, far from it, but his marriage was in trouble for a long time, before we met. He was separated when we met. I had no idea he would go back to her for all these years, now he is separated again. Its a cluster fu**. lol

 

But anyway, I always struggled with what was real and what was fantasy with him. Did he love me, and me him or is in fantasy and just crazy talk because we hardly saw eachother and only got the best of the best times when we did. We had no measuring stick for the real world and then once a man leaves a marriage and then gets to consider all his options, I am not so sure this man wont choose to be single and date a lot and have his fun and cake and pie and eat it too..lol

 

I dont live near him at all, and he has a whole life ahead of him if he stays separated or gets divorced. SO just at a time when I thought that would put me in the picture...it may also take me out. And I am deciding if I need to be out of the picture all together cause its too painful to go back and forth and wonder.

 

Anyway, affairs suck, they just suck and hurt so many people. Too many people get married without thinking about the long term affects and its a crap shoot these days. People dont take it as seriously, or go in with rose colored glasses. Not me, I will stay a cynic and at least be true to who I am.....

 

ha ha

MUN

[herenow]

MUN, your post is exactly what I'm talking about. A MM who, for whatever reason, can't or didn't want to deal with his own reality, so he looks for "medicine" to mask his pain. It sounds like now he is dealing with it and hopefully he will figure out what is right for him and his BW.

 

Real love is a real emotion. One that if it's true can't be ignored. I'm sure there are "feelings" of love. Those endorphins that rush through our bodies. I'm would imagine that the MM gets a rush just by the affair itself because of the secrecy that surrounds it.

 

But, real love is so much more than that. My whole point again is that if a MM finds that kind of love, he will not only let the BW go to be fair to her, he will be with the one he loves. He actually owes it to both the BW and the OW. JMO.

[Myusername]

hereandnow

It's funny cause I completely agree on so many levels to what you said, and yet still don't on many levels. But the larger parts of my soul believe that if its true love, not just passion and lust and an escape, but TRUE love as best as one can know that, that a man would leave at some point. I have seen it happen many time, yet I have also seen or heard of...men who really say or think they are in love with the OW for like 10 years but never leave the wife. Its a head scratcher yet some would argue he really is not in love with OW.

 

I think its hard to make that call not knowing all the circumstances. If leaving the W would mean breaking up a family, loosing most of your income, friends, your family wanting nothing to do with you, loosing xyz...just for love...its one hell of a risk and one many men or women will never take. I can see why. I could not for a long time, now i see it both ways. I feel strongly that love is love and when and if you find it, you have to go for it, i did with unfortunatley the mm, but i cant say its true love because it was an affair and not reality for me. We did not see eachother enough for me to know. But i was in love for the first time. I thought he was in love...he said he was. But he did not leave her for me or anyone else ...interesting.....hah?

 

I never ever wanted him to leave her for me, nor did I ask. Quite the opposite. So the plot thickens

thanks for your posts, very insightful

this forum has helped me so much more than years of therapy ever could. I dont even like talking about this with others really or a therapist. THIS IS the real hard truth with people living it. This is reality..or it is mine

 

I agree full heartedly though that if the MM or MW is in love, really in love with the OW he owes it to himself, the wife and the OW to leave or atleast be honest about it all. Totally agree. Living a lie in your heart and out loud, not the way to go.

thanks

MUN

[herenow]

I agree that without knowing the specifics of every situation, no one can say for certain exactly why people do what they do. And even when we do have some real insight, it's sometimes still hard to figure it out.

 

It just seems like so many people want to make the claim that MM only stay with their wives because of the kids or financial reasons. I can see how that would make the reality easier to accept, but the truth in my opinion is that the cheater will always do what is best for him. And, when the cheater stays married, it's because that is what he wants to do. It has nothing to do with kids, the BW, the OW, money etc. It's all about the cheater. Again, JMO.

 

When true love enters the picture, the MM will then make the choice and because being with the one he loves is usually what feels best to the cheater, I believe that is what he will choose.

 

The problem is, unless he fixes that void inside him that caused him to have the affair in the first place, instead of dealing with the real issue, no matter how much he loves the OW, he won't be able to be 100% committed to her either.

[Myusername]

here now

Yup I agree

I believe that without emotional work or counseling or the MM or MW working on their issues from the past, they cant go forward in a healthy way.

MUN

[herenow]

here now

Yup I agree

I believe that without emotional work or counseling or the MM or MW working on their issues from the past, they cant go forward in a healthy way.

MUN

 

and moving forward in a healthy way is a good goal for eveyone in the New Year (JMO:D)

[Reggie]

This has been almost exactly my experience with my MM.

 

Excepting that he has no children and I was not looking for an exculsive relationship.

 

Apparently when he told his wife that I had asked if they had an open marriage she was very nice to him for a little bit (she knew that he had informed me that his marriage was closed) and then very quickly reverted to type.

 

 

 

My MM has said as much to me. "x" years ago this never would have been/never been a possibility for him because his relationship with his wife was fulfilling enough.

 

I would add that many MM may want to half-believe that it is "true love" in order for it to be more honorable to them. And in the rush of endorphins/infatuation it certainly is and would feel like a type of love.

 

 

 

Well he made a vow to the wife. I don't think 100% lifetime sexual exclusivity is very desirable personally but cheating or not it wouldn't speak well of him if he just up and completely stopped caring about her.

 

If you have more than one child you don't stop loving the first just because you have another. So I would think/hope that he does love his wife on some level. I do not see why this is a hard concept.

 

Feelings: You can love more than one person at a time.

 

Actions: You are only legally allowed to be married to one.

 

If a man truly loves his wife, he does not put her physical and mental health at risk by having an affair. It is widely regarded as the most severe form of spousal, emotional abuse. Not to mention exposing her to life threatening STD's.

You'll never convince me that someone that is willing to put his or her spouse at such great risk loves the spouse. The potential harm is off the charts and I would not risk exposing a stranger to it, let alone the mom of my kids.

[JamesM]

James, are you the poster boy for male sterotyping? So much of what you attribute to men is simply not true, in my expierience. These broad generalizations about men , their motivations and their modus operandi are not accurate.

 

I know that your experience includes a WS, and I have no doubt that this would hurt. And while these stereotypes may not apply to men you know, I have learned differently.

 

Even for me personally, some of these feelings come straight from the heart.

 

Definitely true but I wonder if these generalizations may not in fact be true about many MM?

 

 

Many men who have cheated do fit these "stereotypes" based on what I have read here, on other boards, and in conversations with men who have had affairs. And yes, even many of these thoughts have run through my own mind...but that is where they stayed.

 

I doubt that anything applies to all men.

 

JamesM

I have gotten a lot out of your posts. I was the original poster and this thread has become even way better than I could have hoped for. SO many people have posted valid and interesting points.

You have greatly helped me look into some questions I had about my exMM. Now separated.

 

I appreciate this compliment. I think anyone here who can help someone else during a tough time feels honored that we can help someone.

 

 

WHo knows, but when people are 20 years old, do you really think they know who they are, who they will be and if they can have a lasting, loving and hot /passionate marriage for the duration? I dont. I think its rare I should say. Sure some marriages stay fresh, but both people have to try.

 

Bingo. I agree. I was married almost twenty years ago. I am completely different in many ways as is my wife. We have had to adjust to each other. And when the times are tough, what keeps me going is the hope and expectation that the good times will return...and so far they always do.

 

I think that second or third marriages (I have never been married) may have a better chance because people have grown more into their own skin, are more developed and have had time to learn and grow.

 

Interestingly, "statistics" show that second marriages fail more than first marriages do.

 

I am a true commitment phobe in every way, yet am caring, loving and giving. I still think it is incredibly hard to sustain a long term relationship...thats just me.

 

For me, finding the right person made commitment possible. I am not saying that this makes life easy, but when love is the foundation, then it is possible to keep everything going with the commitment necessary during the rougher times.

 

However, it takes two to keep a marriage alive and thriving. While one can cause a marriage to survive, this does not mean it is thriving.

[JamesM]

 

The problem is, unless he fixes that void inside him that caused him to have the affair in the first place, instead of dealing with the real issue, no matter how much he loves the OW, he won't be able to be 100% committed to her either.

 

Very well said. That is why so many affairs do not last beyond the divorce of the MM's marriage. When the affair is no longer fantasy, then the MM realizes that this relationship takes the same amount of work as the first. And while it is possible to have a relationship with the OW/OM, it is very difficult.

 

If a man truly loves his wife, he does not put her physical and mental health at risk by having an affair. It is widely regarded as the most severe form of spousal, emotional abuse. Not to mention exposing her to life threatening STD's.

You'll never convince me that someone that is willing to put his or her spouse at such great risk loves the spouse. The potential harm is off the charts and I would not risk exposing a stranger to it, let alone the mom of my kids.

 

People do stupid things, but this does not mean they lost their love. If a woman refuses to have sex with her husband, then she causes him mental and emotional anguish. Does she no longer love him?

 

And if that man finds himself weakened and in an affair as a result, does that mean he no longer loves her? Have they both lost their love for each other?

 

When does the person who cheats lose the love they had for the person to whom they were/ are married?

 

Are affairs the only way one can show that they do not love their spouse? Can the affair simply be done out of anger? If the cheater desires and chooses reconciliation, is it not possible for him to still love his wife?

 

I don't think the answers are so simple as we would like them to be.

[whichwayisup]

Interestingly, "statistics" show that second marriages fail more than first marriages do.

 

Probably because some don't put in the same type of energy the second time around and also the couple don't have the same long history that a 1st marriage had, in the sense of family, friends and getting to know eachother..Building a new life the second time around is harder for some people.

[Reggie]

James. IMO, if someone is willing to , potentially kill his or her spouse by exposure to STD's, or cause their spouse unbearable psychological pain from betrayal, that person is not just acting stupidly or angrily or out of frustration. The consequences are just too great for the BS for that to be the case.

If a spouse is denying one sex, there are many other honorable options. No way can a person that loves his spouse cheat, IMO.

[Reggie]

James, one can always find someone that fits a sterotype. I know some guys that may feel as you describe. I know just as many women that do,. as well.

This cheating thing, IMO, is really not that different for the genders. This has been my expierience, anyway.

[ferraridave]

im sorry but i could never forgive my W/GF if she had a affair. How could I ever trust her again? even if it was a "one time thing." I dont believe this bs about how "sometimes people can lead their significant other to cheat." thats bogus, in the end we have the choice. if theres problems in the relationship then fix it, but dont run off with someone else.

 

U (and everyone else) deserve better.

[OWoman]

IMO, if someone is willing to , potentially kill his or her spouse by exposure to STD's

 

This chestnut AGAIN! I suppose all OWs are these evil sluts with no morals that sleep around without protection or a second thought, just breeding nasty things to visit upon straying men? :lmao: :lmao:

 

Actually, IME it's the "safe" marrieds who're unused to sex with people other than the safe, boring old spouse who're not in the habit of using protection and taking care, not the single people who know what the dangers are and how to avoid them, as well as testing regularly and comprehensively. **NO** sex is entirely safe - even if the only person you have ever ever had sex with is your spouse, and the only person they've ever ever had sex with is you, there is still a chance of picking up an infection (herpes, HIV, etc) from some other route and transmitting it sexually.

 

So, merely having sex with someone is "potentially killing your spouse by exposure to STDs" [note - no grocer's apostrophe] - I'm assuming you had sex with your W? Does that mean you didn't love her, and didn't care whether or not you killed her? Gosh!

[OWoman]

When the affair is no longer fantasy, then the MM realizes that this relationship takes the same amount of work as the first.

 

More so, IMO. Often the first M involves coasting and assumption, living past each other and a great deal of comfortable compromise. A subsequent M has both followed the demise of that lazy R - triggering an awareness that a M does require work to sustain it - and motivated the xMP to "do it better next time", wanting to surpass the so-so levels of comfort and happiness of the previous M (after all, they left it, so it can't really have been "good enough" and the next one has to be better). So, work is required both to sustain the M (to the level of the previous M, which ended) and more so to surpass the level of the previous M.

 

Not to mention all the issues that second Ms inherently bring - whether resulting from an A or not - of Xs and kids (if any) and outlaws and histories and bad habits and expectations and roles... often ingrained over years. And, if there's been an A, there may be residual issues of trust or competition, and insecurities or fears, which need active addressing as well. Which is not to say that none of these are present in a first M - but they're foregrounded more sharply in a subsequent M.

 

And given that at least one partner has survived a D, and knows that they're not the end of the world, it's far easier to walk out of a subsequent M if things start going awry - after all, one has learned from the mistakes of the first time around and is less likely to want to waste another significant portion of one's life repeating those mistakes. There are always new and exciting mistakes to make instead, after all.

[JamesM]

James. IMO, if someone is willing to , potentially kill his or her spouse by exposure to STD's, or cause their spouse unbearable psychological pain from betrayal, that person is not just acting stupidly or angrily or out of frustration. The consequences are just too great for the BS for that to be the case.

 

If we were discussing visits to prostitutes, then you have a case. But when we discuss another relationship with another person, the idea that this person will be filled with STDs is a little far fetched. Always the potential is there when one becomes less than monogamous, but that is no different than people who date. A guy dates a gal and they are not exclusive...how could he or she introduce STDs into their relationship with the potential to kill?

 

This is a poor argument IMO. Yes, STDs are always a hazard, and yes, "the spouse is unaware that there is the hazard," but I am willing to guess that if we took a survey, the cheaters that gave their spouses an STD would be very very small.

 

It sounds good and it makes affairs sound scary, but it is not reality.

 

 

If a spouse is denying one sex, there are many other honorable options. No way can a person that loves his spouse cheat, IMO.

 

Here we go again....spoken from someone who has not lived in these shoes. I am always accused of having no idea of what it is like to have a spouse betray me, and this is correct. But to minimize the idea that "denying one sex" is just some trivial thing that can be dealt with "honorably" is well, not reality.

 

Just as there is no way that a person who loves his spouse cheats, there is no way that a person who love her spouse will deny him sex when (1) she is capable of having sex and (2) she requires based on the marital vows, that he be monogamous to her. This is akin to saying to your children that "you may only have dinner at our house, but guess what...we aren't having dinner."

[JamesM]

And given that at least one partner has survived a D, and knows that they're not the end of the world, it's far easier to walk out of a subsequent M if things start going awry - after all, one has learned from the mistakes of the first time around and is less likely to want to waste another significant portion of one's life repeating those mistakes. There are always new and exciting mistakes to make instead, after all.

 

This is one of the main reasons that second marriages fail. At least one person now is out for him or herself. It becomes more of how to make "me" happy versus making "us" happy.

 

Yet this of course is not always true. There are some who when in the second marriage will do everything to make it work as they do not want a second failure.