Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 What I'm thinking is that you and your wife are in some sort of dom/submissive relationship.. that you each get some sort of sexual charge from your shared "crazies" . I also suspect that the 2 of you are posting here as an extension of your shared "crazies" basically using the folks here at Loveshack as part of your sexual routine. I know. But I really doubt that is the case. I really don't feel like a dominant person in this relationship. My desire is actually for more equality and respect between us. Understand that that is hard to get across when I am aggressive and angry though. Part of the reason my wife did what she did was to assert her own authority in this relationship. She has her own ways of being aggressive and domineering which are perhaps more subtle than mine (though not always), but still have the same effect. She does not really care about this forum, by the way. She is not even interested in what people are saying at present. I'm the one who has been using this as a place to vent. The only reason she got on here was to lash out at me and stir up more emotions. Link to post Share on other sites
Saville Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 How about buying each other a watch? Saville Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Is your wife Asian? if so being indirect is normal..direct expressions of deep anger aren't usual, nor is the indication of a strong preference. She is of Eastern origin, yes. You are right. There are cultural differences at play here. Her getting upset and needing to "calm down" is pretty good indication to me that she's not happy with this.. she won't forbid it.. but she wants you to actively chose to be faithful. No, she doesn't. I asked her if that's all she wanted as well, and she said no. That's what you're not understanding. She is not a woman who cannot speak her mind when she wants to. She is not the submissive slave you are portraying her as. What she wants is more attention. She's said it over and over. That's all. Nobody is forcing her into anything. Nobody is coercing her. She is coming to me with these direct statements. Yes, she seemed very meek and submissive on this thread, but that was because she did something wrong and she feels she has to atone for that to appease my indignation. Do you want the freedom to continue to be allowed to boff other women? yes or no? If she wants me to give up my freedom, I will. In fact, I was willing to do that from the beginning. It's always been up to her. I wasn't even the one that brought it up to begin with. Do you enjoy knowing that it bothers and upsets her,do you get a sexual thrill from that aspect of things? No, of course not! That's the difference. I don't get any pleasure out of hurting her; not even a little. The thing is that you do not clearly understand exactly what is bothering and upsetting her. That is what it is important to analyze. She was not upset about our agreement. She was upset that I somehow "violated the rules" of our agreement by not giving her the amount of time and attention that she desires. I suppose another twisted part of this arrangement is that it allows her to be even more demanding of me since she gives me such freedom. She craves attention so much and, by giving me freedom in our relationship, she is giving herself the right to demand more attention in recompense. Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 How about buying each other a watch? Saville She gave me one just before she started having an affair. It's pretty nice. I wear it all the time and think of her every time I look at it. Link to post Share on other sites
soserious1 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I know. But I really doubt that is the case. I really don't feel like a dominant person in this relationship. My desire is actually for more equality and respect between us. Understand that that is hard to get across when I am aggressive and angry though. Part of the reason my wife did what she did was to assert her own authority in this relationship. She has her own ways of being aggressive and domineering which are perhaps more subtle than mine (though not always), but still have the same effect. She does not really care about this forum, by the way. She is not even interested in what people are saying at present. I'm the one who has been using this as a place to vent. The only reason she got on here was to lash out at me and stir up more emotions. if she visited here to "lash out" I'm thinking that you and she have a LOT of issues that are probably issues of long standing. I think I would sit quietly and decide .. what is it that you V want? do you want to stay married? yes or no? Do you want to stay married but with continued freedom to have sex with other women? do you want to retain this freedom while requiring her to remain faithful? Decide what it is that you want... then tell her it's counseling or a divorce.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 if she visited here to "lash out" I'm thinking that you and she have a LOT of issues that are probably issues of long standing. The reason she needed to lash out was not entirely focused on me, though she probably didn't mind getting a little extra attention. It was her own pride that was insulted. Again, there are probably cultural reasons at play here. I think I would sit quietly and decide .. what is it that you V want? do you want to stay married? yes or no? Do you want to stay married but with continued freedom to have sex with other women? do you want to retain this freedom while requiring her to remain faithful?Decide what it is that you want... then tell her it's counseling or a divorce.. These are all things we have been discussing for months. The thing is that I have tried to control myself, even though she gave me this free pass in our relationship. I try to simply avoid using it in order to avoid any complications. It doesn't seem to help matters though. She still gets upset and finds reasons to demand more attention. Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 I feel damned if I do, damned if I don't. She puts me in these no-win situations all the time and the worst part of it is that I have no one that can even begin to comprehend the complexity of it. Many people don't even believe what I try to relate. Link to post Share on other sites
Saville Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Toaster-ovens, then? Saville Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Toaster-ovens, then? Saville Neither of us like to cook. We eat at restaurants all the time. Link to post Share on other sites
soserious1 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I feel damned if I do, damned if I don't. She puts me in these no-win situations all the time and the worst part of it is that I have no one that can even begin to comprehend the complexity of it. Many people don't even believe what I try to relate. Yeah but you do have choices here.. for starters you need to decide, is this marriage worth investing work into? if YOUR answer is yes,then marriage counseling will be needed, if your answer is no, you need a divorce lawyer. You've already moved out into your own apartment, showing that you do have the ability to extract yourself from "no win" situations. Also, nobody needs to understand the "complexity" of anything.. what's important here is that the marriage is broken.. broken to the point that you've moved out. The dance the two of you have been doing is clearly not working anymore. My suggestion to you? get some individual counseling to help you decide what it is YOU want in respect to the marriage. I'd suggest it's shiat or get off the pot time, decide to close the marriage while working on your deeper issues both as a couple and in indivual therapy, if either of you balk at doing that,focus instead on getting a divorce attorney. You do have a kid together? if so the drama needs to end and a co-parenting plan put into play here. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 What she meant was that she expressed the idea that it was ok for me to do things outside our marriage "just for fun." Well of course she did. Thats because that was what SHE wanted to do with OTHER MEN. So let me ask you, were you considering the idea of messing around "just for fun"? If not, and this was her suggestion out of the blue, then you have to see this for what it really is......she wanted other men, and as long as she could get you to be with other women, she'd feel less guilty about it. But looks like she was already seeing other men before she offered you this deal. Anything that threatened the amount of time or attention I gave to her was not ok. ???? huh? If you are with another woman, that is time and attention away from her. But I digress. What did she care about time and attention away from her when she was already screwing other men behind your back? Anything that was more "serious" that might threaten my desire to stay married to her was also strictly forbidden. So any time she felt upset with me was actually due to the fact that she perceived I was violating one of these rules. In my defense, I can only say that it was not always clear what she was perceiving. Aye yi yi. Ok, so were you messing around too? Were you taking her offer and were you with another woman or women? After she calmed down, she would say that everything was ok. She would say that I should "just not do it so much or too often." Again, she wants you to do this, but not too much:rolleyes:, so she can have a green light to have another man inside her. so here it is in a nutshell. She wants you to mess around so she can mess around and think its ok. She was already messing around before offering you this "deal". And if you took the deal, then you have nothing to complain about. Not saying you took the deal, but you aren't being real clear on this. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 She does not really care about this forum, by the way. She is not even interested in what people are saying at present. Well it seems safe to say that she just doesn't care PERIOD. She wants other men. I'm the one who has been using this as a place to vent. The only reason she got on here was to lash out at me and stir up more emotions. Lets see, she is the cheater, but she is lashing out at you? When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee? You need to get rid of her and send her back to wherever it is she came. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Not saying you took the deal, but you aren't being real clear on this. To clarify, he did take the deal. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 To clarify, he did take the deal. If this is true, then what is he complaining about? When you make a deal to be able to screw around on each other, then take your lumps and suck it up. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 If this is true, then what is he complaining about? When you make a deal to be able to screw around on each other, then take your lumps and suck it up. I've been having a pretty hard time understanding that logic myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Saville Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 At least you are keeping the economy going by eating in restaurants. Do you go together? I don't like eating out. It is impersonal, expensive, and a bit of a time waster. I'm not even sure I like eating; except for chocolate which I can't seem to stop wolfing down. Probably fills a void in my life, or perhaps that is just my tum. I read a story where a very respectable man has this man-servant, who addressed all his needs. What he didn't know was that the man-servant hated him and so would either spit or urinate in all of the food preparation. When the respectable man died he left everything to man-servant, quite unwitting that his man-servant had been anything other than devoted, doting and loving. Saville Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Here's the thing from my viewpoint. My line of questioning was more beneficial to the both of us than you realize and did in fact resolves some issues we had. Both of us feel better having clearly defined the way things really were. If there was no benefit, then why do we both feel so much better toward each other? Why do I feel calmer and less likely to lash out now? Because its really interesting to note a very common thing with troubled relationships. They'll fight with each other like cats and dogs...but the moment an outsider steps in and raises the issues...the two people who were at each other's throats a moment ago suddenly join together to fight off the outsider. Unfortunately, this doesn't last. That solidarity will fade after the outside threat is removed. That was an effort to fix things. The thing that is preventing real progress between us at this point is our previous inability to agree on what was really going on. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we feel better prepared to deal with the emotions it has raised. Perhaps for some people or some other couples there would be no value in what we have been doing. But I'll be the first to admit they we are unique individuals with a unique relationship. If you guys want to say this is frakked up, that's ok with me. I don't care. All I know is that the previous six years with her have been the happiest of my entire life. I'm not about to give up just because we hit a bump in the road. Where ARE the two of you at for getting professional counseling to work through all of this? Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 If this is true, then what is he complaining about? I avoided "taking the deal" most of the time, but there were moments when having it there made it impossible to resist entirely. When you make a deal to be able to screw around on each other, then take your lumps and suck it up. THIS WAS NOT THE DEAL WE MADE. The deal was NOT that we could simply screw around on each other. You misunderstand. The deal was that she wouldn't punish me if I did something, that our relationship would be safe regardless. I tried to avoid doing it, but if I did happen to do it, no retribution was entitled. The deal was that she was NOT going to screw around; she even went so far as to say that she felt no need to do that. The deal was that she would NOT meet her ex-boyfriend, let alone screw him. The deal was that we would NOT do things like this just to hurt each other or get revenge. The deal was that IF she changed her mind on any of this that she would discuss it with me first. The deal was that we were going to be open and truthful with each other on all things. Our deal was very specific; even more specific than most couples, I think. Most people don't even sit down and discuss the parameters of their relationship until one partner crosses some unspoken and undefined boundary. However, everything was laid out pretty clearly in our relationship and she violated the agreement pretty blatantly. This is just the logical side of it. In truth, my pain runs much deeper and is more complex than this. But it's the logical part of the argument people seem to care about the most, so I'm addressing that now. I agree, if we made an agreement for an open marriage, I should try to just deal with it. I assure you that I would too. What you don't seem to understand (and I don't see why this is so hard for people to see) is that that wasn't the agreement she and I had. Link to post Share on other sites
Author vnqsh2001 Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 If this is true, then what is he complaining about? When you make a deal to be able to screw around on each other, then take your lumps and suck it up. This agreement had specific terms and conditions to follow. I wasn't just free to do anything I wanted, and neither was she. For instance, I couldn't just bring someone home to my apartment. I couldn't let other people see me messing around with another woman; I had to be discreet. I couldn't do it too often (this one was a little vague). I had to be home every night. The list goes on. She gave me rules and stipulations to follow and I expected her to follow the ones she set for herself as well. So you see, since I had these rules to follow, it was quite impossible for me to go around town screwing every woman in sight. If you think that, you don't really have a clear picture of the way it was. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 she is still a little uncomfortable with the fact that I touched her sister. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: and your own? Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I avoided "taking the deal" most of the time, but there were moments when having it there made it impossible to resist entirely. Huh?? So you are telling us that you wanted other women, so when the temptation was there you took the deal when it was convenient for you? So in saying you avoided taking the deal "most of the time", indicates that you have at least once taken the deal and been with other women. So again, why are you complaining? She offered for you to have freedom to be with other women, you did just that, in your own words indirectly, but if she does it, now you have a problem with it. Forget the fact she was screwing around with other men in the first place which is WHY she offered you this "deal". THIS WAS NOT THE DEAL WE MADE. The deal was NOT that we could simply screw around on each other. You misunderstand. The deal was that she wouldn't punish me if I did something, that our relationship would be safe regardless. sorry, but I have to call bs on this. If screwing around wasn't what you wanted to do, then there was no need for a deal like that in the first place. Of course she wouldn't punish you if you were with other women, because she'd be a total hypocrite if she did. Again, she offered the deal so as to give herself an excuse to let other men in her. I tried to avoid doing it, but if I did happen to do it, no retribution was entitled. The deal was that she was NOT going to screw around ????? *sigh*. Ok, the deal was that she was NOT going to screw around, but if you happened to screw around, she was to remain quiet. she even went so far as to say that she felt no need to do that. The deal was that she would NOT meet her ex-boyfriend, let alone screw him. The deal was that we would NOT do things like this just to hurt each other or get revenge. The deal was that IF she changed her mind on any of this that she would discuss it with me first. The deal was that we were going to be open and truthful with each other on all things. Thats not what you and her said earlier in this thread. The DEAL that she put forth was that you have your freedom to do as you want and that she doesn't expect any man to be faithful, all the while helping her excuse her own cheating. You seem to be changing your story to suit your argument for staying with her and not wanting to take the advice of people to get out of this lousy situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 This agreement had specific terms and conditions to follow. I wasn't just free to do anything I wanted, and neither was she. For instance, I couldn't just bring someone home to my apartment. I couldn't let other people see me messing around with another woman; I had to be discreet. ARRRGHH!!!!! You just got done saying in the other post of yours that the agreement wasn't to screw around on each other and that you didn't agree to an open marriage. here you are totally contradicting yourself. Ok, here is the bottom line. She screws around, you have the green light to screw around, but with rules:lmao:. So, there is no need for you to complain any longer about her screwing around. You accepted the rules, you ARE agreeing to an open marriage. End of story. So like I said, this is the marriage you agreed to after she offered the "deal". So again, take your lumps, you agreed to it. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 So you see, since I had these rules to follow, it was quite impossible for me to go around town screwing every woman in sight. If you think that, you don't really have a clear picture of the way it was. I don't care if it was one woman, or a thousand women. you agreed to an open marriage. That is the freedom to screw around, but with boundaries:confused:. End of story. Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I thought maybe there was some way to undo the damage she's done, but it's only getting worse from this point. You know, the "damage she's done" here is happening in anonymous cyberspace. The "damage done" here is irrelevant. Turn your computer OFF. What's more important is the damage you continue to do to each other in real life, and you are way beyond anyone's ability to help you on an internet forum. re: Counseling: Yes, I've considered it, but it seems she is not entirely open to that option. Also, I'm not sure how much it could really help. Based on the reactions that people have been giving on this forum, I question how understanding anyone can be of this unique situation. I may be wrong, but it's the impression I get. That's a cop out. My problems are so unique that nobody else could ever help me. That's just a way to avoid facing the issues. The reactions "on this forum" are those of a bunch of random people. That doesn't mitigate the wisdom of seeking counseling. So you see, since I had these rules to follow, it was quite impossible for me to go around town screwing every woman in sight. If you think that, you don't really have a clear picture of the way it was. You keep referring to the "damage she's done" here on the forums, but I think the existence of this very unbalanced and volatile agreement indicates that there was already some kind of significant damage existing in the marriage even before you all launched this arrangement. It's hard to imagine how you could not have seen that this was like playing with matches around a propane tank. There are all kinds of levels underlying the pain, hurt, betrayal, and brutality of your behaviors to each other here. The "agreement" and it's breaking is just the surface, but if you want to try to heal the marriage at all, you need to work with a counselor to start at that level, then dig down to the pathologies that lie underneath. You probably won't have a lot of luck doing that yourselves, nor will you have much luck on an internet forum. Turn your computer off and go get help. Link to post Share on other sites
desertmoon Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 This is what I got from the several threads by vnqsh: You are this guy who has a lot of women tripping on themselves to be with you, who decided you would rather marry someone you meet online from another country-preferably from a third world country-because I suspect for the following reasons: 1) they are desperate women 2) younger 3) probably prettier (than the ones you are used to ) 4) you can control them (they are not westerners and don't know their "rights")-thus, you felt you hit the jackpot when she said it was ok for you to have liasons outside of your marriage! Except that, you found someone who is ALSO a predator online: Who married you because: 1) you were desperate, that's why you found her online 2) you are older, if not actually OLD-and she thought she can easily manipulate you--hey, she is afterall HOT! and she did! 3) you were her ticket to a better life-get me out of this third world hole! BUT these are her realities: 1) while you have a vast sexual appetite, you are not really anything to look at 2) while you were her ticket to a "better life"-she realized: "jesus! this man is not rich! what? I have to work so I can shop at WalMart??????" 3) you are not her forever (she does not want to live in an apartment forever, she wants a house, a white picket fence, etc., 4)she wants someone younger, more hip-that's why she is not done surfing the web) 5) Except that, she has not found the next sucker....so please don't leave her... and find another woman online! Link to post Share on other sites
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