jenny Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 actually, i think our world views might agree to some extent - you look to the world and also see many examples of people screwing each other, as detailed in the first post. what i am suggesting makes me amoral is that i don't really mind. i still behave well (as this particular society dictates) because it is in my interest and my conditioning to do so, but i can, and often do, enjoy people who do not. p.s. shall we rigour out the hobbes/locke comparison? i'll take hobbes (you're right, i am a hobbes girl, but hobbes from "leviathan." that text ROCKED! it's been awhile, but i'll see what i can cobble together for the benefit of the studio audience) and try to detail the main points from a couple of his books, and you can take locke. p.s.s. beth - i really loved this: "there is a common thread that I have found to be true: we're all looking for something, and we each have limited means by which to find whatever we're seeking. Which is not to say that we must remain limited in our means by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I dare say that if more people would utilize their imaginations, they might just discover that they don't have to continue being unhappy all the time." lol, i have nothing scholarly to say here, i just really really dug it. the most. i love the play on the word 'thread'. Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 i have to finish this later, but let me immediately apologize for an inaccuracy. "nasty, brutish, and short" is, in fact, from "leviathan" where i had thought it was from another text. it is, by no means, representative of the text as a whole but it definitely emerges from there. i'm happy to have this chance to brush up on him, i had forgotten so much! anyway, sorry again! mea culpa! Link to post Share on other sites
i'msointellectual Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by moimeme Is it that people who don't esteem themselves can't be bothered being people they might like? Interesting question, do you yourself always act like the person you would like? Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 ok, have acquired some hobbes' review over a walk, just to get the points salient for our discussion. (i'm lazy too, i know i should have re-read ) and your analysis is dead-on. and it was actually quite helpful. i do think by nature man is pleasure seeking, and it only this agreement to a society that makes us productive. i do not see altruism as *as* natural of an impulse as pleasure - and i think we must band together to lumber forth. there is no real point in judgment except if the person is causing the leviathan to function less efficiently. my only addition is that it need not be universal - i think every small microcosm has their own giant man to build and run - my just happens to run smoother with irony and be mistrustful of bigger, more entrenched, giants. so, yep, this is pretty close to the truth i follow - it's cool to have it articulated with his wild amazing (but controlled) metaphors! i would say this creature is ethical, not moral, which i'm aware is a simplification, but it helps me to understand it for use on a day to day level. lol, ok, am bowing out gracefully yet again. thanks for the ref! Link to post Share on other sites
Author moimeme Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Interesting question, do you yourself always act like the person you would like? I try very hard to keep my actions congruent with my own principles. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 On pondering this during my shower, . . .blah blah blah. . .Which got me wondering. Yikes! What kind of soap do you use in your showers!?!? Link to post Share on other sites
2SidestoStories Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Moi, I've just re-read your initial post, and had another flash in the pan insight: You ask, Is it that people who don't esteem themselves can't be bothered being people they might like? I think it is more that people who don't esteem themselves may not be bothered to think much in general. People are more prone to being creatures of habit than creatures of thought. When a thing becomes habitual, it becomes a kind of comfort. Even in the case of self-destructive or outwardly destructive behavior. We are social animals, and to be part of a social structure, often we accept a set of patterned behaviors as our own. This may be a part of why politeness and virtue are on the decline: tis easier to follow the masses than to let go and risk being smashed on the rocks of an 'unknown.' Complacency endangers intellect, and oft intellect dims compassion. In other words, tis a rare and noble individual who finds the ability to be both practically intelligent and emotionally intelligent, and that has nothing at all to do with spiritual intelligence whatsoever! (I wish I could join in the intellectual and philosophical aspect of the 'debate' in which you and Jenny have found yourselves, but I daresay with what limited knowledge of Hobbes and Locke that I do have, I'd sound even more the fool were I to try!) Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by HokeyReligions Yikes! What kind of soap do you use in your showers!?!? lol! LOL! o, that's my first giggle of the day!! it took me a second to get, but then: Link to post Share on other sites
Author moimeme Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 I think it is more that people who don't esteem themselves may not be bothered to think much in general. You see the cynic in me would opine that most people can't be bothered to think much in general no matter the state of their self-esteem. BTW, Beth, I'm really enjoying your ponderings - shower-originated or not - too oft intellect dims compassion I think that too many intellectuals begin to believe the archaic 'brain over heart' attitude which was supposedly an 'enlightened' viewpoint when really it denies the truth and reality of what humans are. It is no great thing to operate only from the head but people still cling to the lame belief that 'reason' is superior to 'passion'. In truth, the best humans incorporate both aspects of their humanity rather than shunning one or the other. I think the anti-intellectuals are as bad or worse, in fact. Link to post Share on other sites
Author moimeme Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Yikes! What kind of soap do you use in your showers!?!? Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 [ I think that too many intellectuals begin to believe the archaic 'brain over heart' attitude which was supposedly an 'enlightened' viewpoint when really it denies the truth and reality of what humans are. It is no great thing to operate only from the head but people still cling to the lame belief that 'reason' is superior to 'passion'. In truth, the best humans incorporate both aspects of their humanity rather than shunning one or the other. I think the anti-intellectuals are as bad or worse, in fact. i respect the truth you are following. i think what is pleasing about reason, to me, is that it is codified so rigourously; one can cite and reference a system in place, and alter it through precedent and careful thought. i don't find it superior, but i do find it a much more useful way to express myself. that said, i do see empathy (*not* pity) as a function of reason - it's sharing the evidence of experience. i celebrate imaginative, sensual, artistic, and vocational passion, but in more linear forms of communication, particularly written communication, i stand behind reason as the dominant discourse for persuasion and argument - passion can be implied by the fervour and rigour of the writing as a whole. and i stand behind reason because i have been taught to do so, as many people have. i would like to talk to those people, thus i must try to speak their language. i do not think reason is a higher or greater truth, simply one among many i have been taught and one i am willing to stand up for, in this particular context at this time. the orgy thread, however, is a totally different kitten, giggles. Link to post Share on other sites
Author moimeme Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 i do find it a much more useful way to express myself Depends what you want to express. Words are completely inadequate in many situations. but in more linear forms of communication, particularly written communication, i stand behind reason as the dominant discourse for persuasion and argument I'm losing you here. We weren't discussing effective means of persuasion and argument. I was responding to Beth's remark that 'oft intellect dims compassion'. I was saying that people think intellect is superior to emotions like compassion and that IMHO being truly evolved means to integrate the two. That way, one can use reason to argue for the utility of compassion. Link to post Share on other sites
2SidestoStories Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 BTW, Beth, I'm really enjoying your ponderings - shower-originated or not - too aww, shucks! Thanks. -shower-originated, no; after hours of deliberation, perhaps! Spur of the moment!? Most likely!- You see the cynic in me would opine that most people can't be bothered to think much in general no matter the state of their self-esteem. And the eternal optimist in me would opine that cynicism serves but the purpose of the bitter. Yet I have an uncanny knack for being cynical as well as optimistic, which is perhaps contrary, but certainly serves me well thus far in life. Perhaps I'm more one than the other on any given day, and I'm given to say that the optimist wins more often than the cynic, if for no other reason than the fact that I truly believe that within every individual is the ability to accomplish anything. However, the cynic immediately emerges to say that although the potential may be there, most people will never achieve their potential. <shrug> I'm easily confused, perhaps. Or perhaps I can easily confuse others! Hmmm.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author moimeme Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 that cynicism serves but the purpose of the bitter I wouldn't go as far as 'bitter'. I'd stick firmly with 'disillusioned'. The eternal optimist in me survives, despite having been beaten fairly severely by life circumstance. Disillusionment has served to cushion my disappointment when my optimistic hopes would leave me vulnerable to being crushed. My optimism helps me rebound from crushing events because it successfully persuades me that history does not necessarily repeat itself. I continue to persist in my devout Pollyannaism, however, for all that. "I get knocked down but I get up again, 'cause they're never gonna keep me down" Chumbawumba: Tubthumping Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 yes, i understand what you meant better now. and for me constructing a creative and thoughtful argument that attends to its logic is among the most loving acts i commit. so hurray! synthesis! Link to post Share on other sites
2SidestoStories Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Once again I stand corrected, humbly, and appreciatively. I think the word "disillusioned" is a perfect representation of the motivation behind my own cynicism! Moi, you're fabulous! Link to post Share on other sites
Author moimeme Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Moi, you're fabulous! You are far too kind, my friend. Sometimes a useful idea pops out of my noggin, that's all. Link to post Share on other sites
2SidestoStories Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Nay, verily! I call it as I see it. Occasionally to the point of being called "brutal" which I have always found entertaining. Here's to useful noggin poppin'! (oh, bleeding over from orgy thread?) Link to post Share on other sites
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